🎙️Episode 10 - Interior Design Meets Architecture.🎙️

But yet, I'm so torn here because you're now asking me to choose between my career and my responsibilities as a parent. It's a tough old game. And there's a lot of societal expectations and trying to free yourself from those. Live and let live, try and be kind where you can and deep breaths. Deep breaths. Yeah. Literally, I actually want a medal. So if you've got individual toilets that have walls to the floor, you can have neutral and

a space to wash your hands. You can have gender neutral. But if you're talking cubicles with a space underneath, they're saying that you can't have a gender neutral toilet with the gaps underneath. I see. Shared. I see. I think if you're an aspiring interior designer or you're thinking that that might be something that you want to kind of look to do professionally, my advice would definitely be. Welcome to the Interior Design Podcast. I'm Hayley Roy. I'm a commercial interior designer

with a passion for creating beautiful functional spaces. And I'm Cheryl Sutton, an interior designer and architectural designer. Hayley and I have worked together on various projects over the years and have plenty of insights to share with you guys. On many episodes, Cheryl and I team up to bring you engaging and lively discussions. Our differing views often lead to interesting debates, giving you two sides of many topics

we cover. While Cheryl won't be on every episode, when she does join in, it's always insightful. Thanks. We started this podcast because we feel strongly about interior design and the importance of educating designers. A lot of what you will hear from us, you won't learn in a course. And as designers, there's so much we need to do to do our jobs well. And we want to give you a forum where you can access the information you need wherever you are.

Whether you're an aspiring designer, someone designing your own home, or a seasoned professional working in residential or commercial design, this podcast is here to help you improve and thrive. We're not about ego stroking interviews, although I will be stroking some egos today with big names. Instead, we focus on practical advice that you can apply directly to your work. You'll learn about different products, their applications and sustainability practices.

Our goal is to equip you with the knowledge you need to excel in your projects. And remember, if it's not fun, you're not doing it. So expect a bit of humor and a few expletives along the way. Sorry, not sorry. Now a quick note on production. We are interior designers and not sound producers. I am handling the editing myself, so please be patient with any technical glitches. I am improving my production skills as the podcast progresses and I appreciate your understanding.

However, if there are any editors out there that would like to volunteer their skills in return for a quick shout out, please feel free to reach out. Thanks for tuning into the interior design podcast. Let's dive in and start this journey of learning. Let's go. Let's do this. Hayley and I have literally, we've been trying to get this podcast together for a while. The idea of how architecture and interior design are so important together. And I don't

know. It's just something that's always been like an itch that's needed scratching for me. And I'm like, oh, Pippa's in today. Amazing. Can't wait to get into it and yeah, kind of throw some ideas around. Yeah. And I think it's an opportunity as well for me to learn from you guys. So I've got a couple of questions for you guys too. So yeah. Oh God. No, no, no. No pressure. Shall we introduce you? So this is Pippa. Pippa is from NJ Architects in Ipswich. She

is an architect. I am an architect. Yeah. And would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah, of course I can say a bit more. So yeah, I'm an architect. I've been qualified for I think 12 years now, which seems bananas. Wow. I know. And I studied on the South coast. I've worked in Brighton. I've worked in Guildford. I've worked in London and then I've settled

in Ipswich in Suffolk, which is where I came from. And I've ended up back there. And I think throughout my studies and when I was doing my first placement, I was like, I never want to go back there, but I just feel so content. It is the right place to be. So yeah. And I now work in my dad's practice. And yeah, it's lovely. It's really, yeah, it's really nice. Pippa, what's your approach to integrating interior design into architecture?

Okay. That's a really good question. So we can either get on board with the client directly contacting us and then interiors will be something that we talk about, or perhaps an interior designer thinks, do you know what? This space actually needs more kind of push and pull of the actual kind of structural spaces. So we would then come on board alongside the interior designer. The more traditional route is the first route and we would then get an

interior designer on board perhaps once outline designs achieved. But I find in terms of developing a working relationship, I prefer the other way, because actually we can learn so much from interior designers. And I think it's quite easy. You know, you guys have mentioned ego. I think it's quite easy within the role of architect to think that because we sometimes

take the role as project manager, that we are therefore in like, have chargership. And actually, there is so much that we can learn and so much knowledge that we guys can share together about light, wayfinding, the best spot for a certain piece of furniture, sight lines through spaces, that actually working together earlier on in the project is really

cool. Do you not find though that that process is very much more kind of few and far between that a lot that it tends to be that a client will instruct and appoint an architect to take the project from concept through to delivery and completion, however that may be. And then once you've got a building or a structure or the changes have been made in line with what the architect has proposed, then the interior designer is pulled in and then a

separate conversation is being had then. And it's just, I think it's quite frustrating. I find it as a designer quite frustrating that process because like you've said, like picking up all you just mentioned, Pippa, there's so many areas and opportunities where if you were involved through the design process, it's not about dictating to an architect what should or shouldn't be done, but it's a collaborative approach, isn't it?

Definitely. Definitely. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And, you know, things like wall thicknesses, actually it's really good to know what the final finish is going to be and floor thicknesses and things like that. Cause a couple of mil here or a hundred mil there, it does make a difference to then the finished product that you want to deliver.

Oh, definitely. So I've got a good example actually, where I worked with a football club a few years ago and the architect had put all of the drawings together as a brand new building and they'd allowed a certain amount of space for the kitchen, but they hadn't actually figured out what kind of food they were going to serve or how they were going

to serve. And they got me on board after this had all been done. And we ended up having to reconfigure quite a lot of the interior walls because we needed a bigger kitchen because the client wanted to serve 150 people and they put like a tiny kitchen in and actually knowing that's the sort of thing that I would look at as an interior designer. And like I would actually go out to a company, a kitchen design company as well and kind of go, right,

this is the space for the kitchen. And this is what I did in the project. I went, this is the space of the kitchen. I don't think this is big enough. Can you have a look at this for me? And they looked at it and went, no, you need X, you need a lot more space for it. So we made it bigger. But if we were involved at the beginning of the project, that would never have happened. And you're not having to redo things. So actually collaboration

from the beginning is absolutely my preferred way of working. And I think, you know, from a commercial point of view, more so probably than domestic, those issues that come up can be expensive really to change. You know, you're talking about making structural changes to something that doesn't work, that could have been avoided if the channels of communication between each part of the design team were open from the beginning.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think an interesting topic is value engineering. And unfortunately, it can often be the finishes where people think that's an easy place to save money, or size of windows, or number of openings, or systems that are used within the building. And that's such a shame, because actually, there's a quote that architects is like the invisible art, like you shouldn't really, unless it's like a real wow space,

the bits that you touch is actually that's the interior design aspect. So it's yeah, having you guys on board early on, I think it is just really beneficial, really, really beneficial. Do you feel like we're ganging up on you? Because we're two interior designers and an architect. Not actually though, because Cheryl was kind of well, like, you should be sitting in the middle of it, because you're in between. Yeah, yeah. What people do and what I do. Yeah,

kind of, kind of in your training. Yeah, so Cheryl sits beautifully between Hayley and I, although she is opposite me. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Whilst my kind of choice of career has brought me to design, more so to design. I think having the education, doing my part one was a huge, you know, and I invested like six years of my life into that, doing it part time. Having a child in between as well, like an idiot.

We need so much respect for you. We need to really talk about children. We're going to talk about children later. But I'm glad that I've got that kind of under my belt, because I think that that is one of my strengths as a designer personally for me. You know, and I will really, oh my God, I dig my heels in on so many projects where I'm just like, no, you're not doing that. It's not happening. It's not happening because I've got my architecture head on and I'm aware

of like a building and what it stands for and what we should be doing with it. Like I have such a strong opinion on it, rightly or wrongly. I think that's a real tool in your belt is that you do have empathy for both sides of the coin, thanks to your original training. And I think it's so brave that you were like, no, part one and now I'm going to go and do something else. Yeah. I've got so much respect for you for doing that. I think that's really, really cool. Thanks. Thank you. But you're

so creative. It's almost like you either need to be building some wacky building and creating something crazy as an architect or doing interior design. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? I mean, I think it was only like literally last week or the week before Haley that I was applying to be a full time firefighter. I mean, like literally. Why didn't you go into architecture? Why did you stop and work in design?

Oh, God. Don't ask me that. That's a really horrible question. That's a really tough one because I don't want to be rude. No, no, far away. I won't take it personally. I'm sure it's about the industry. Yeah. 100%. So I found myself in an environment where I was working and I'd completed my part one and I was thinking about doing my part two and my part three because I would have loved to have completed it. And I was working in this

environment and I was just like, this is not what architecture should be. The actual product of what is being created here was outstanding and beautiful projects to be involved with and challenging and really cool. But the whole feel of the industry was just so stifled. I was like, oh my God, I feel like... I remember you sending me a picture because you worked at Hark, didn't you? Yeah. Please be careful what you're saying.

I remember you sending me a picture of this dead plant. And you kind of sending me a picture of yourself and going... And it had like a random, like three baubles on it that had been there for about 20 years. And I was like, you literally, this needs to fuck off. I can't do it. I can't do it. So that's what stopped me from continuing

because I was like, I need something that my personality is... Yeah. So I've really grappled with that over the years because I don't fall into the stereotypical fit of an architect. I don't have dark-groomed glasses. I don't wear Ponynex. Well, sometimes. I'm quite careful, but it's not my uniform. I like brightly coloured dresses. Yeah. I'm quite flamboyant and expressive. And throughout my training, I thought, oh my gosh, I just

don't fit. And there were so many times when I thought about deviating. And I don't know whether it was out of like... On the one hand, I could think, oh, I was so brave that I just persevered. Or on the other hand, was it just the easier option to keep going, keep going, keep going? I don't have the answer on that. I'm not sure. But it took a lot of determination, a lot of perseverance. And at the end of it, thinking about myself as an employee, the

natural personality traits that I have actually really nice to work alongside. And I have really good working relationships with clients and other consultants. So where I'm not kind of starched and there is an element of me that loves to follow rules. Thank you so much. Because I don't know why, but I just love a rule. So that fits. You're in the right job. But also I can kind of lean into my personality and think, okay, I am good enough. As I am,

I don't have to be like super serious, super straight laced. I remember the first time I met you and we actually looked at each other and gravitated to each other because you were wearing a dress with dinosaurs on it. And I was wearing my red cowboy boots. And we were at Daniel Connell partnerships, St. George's breakfast at the toll booth, which is a really posh restaurant in Colchester in Dedham. And we were in a room full of men wearing gray

suits, weren't we? And it was just me and you. We were in these brightly colored outfits. We said we wouldn't do this. You work in a lot of heritage property, don't you? Yes. So my We were just like, I need to speak to you. Yeah, absolutely. And then we just clicked.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And the rest they say is history. The rest is history. And Pippa is firm specializing in conservation, we have a little toe in commercial, we do quite a lot of residential, we do a lot of church projects, be that either like a practicing, it's a church that needs a toilet and somewhere to make a cup of tea, or it's a complete conversion and we're making

it into like an art center. So it's more sensitive. We do a lot of work with existing buildings and our kind of spectrum of clients is very varied from a couple that want to do an extension and then somebody that wants to extend their restaurant or something. So yeah, it's quite varied, which I like. That's part of the job that I really like is that it's always really varied. How do you think interior

design and architecture complement each other in the design process? I think I would find it easier as an interior designer to have the finished product and then you apply the interior design. And I think what's really interesting is that you guys actually have to do that off drawings. And I think that's a real skill. So how do they complement each other? So I suppose architects and interior designers have to visualize the space. I've mentioned earlier like windows.

That's a really good point. Yeah, definitely. That's where they can really kind of link in and speak really well together. And also thinking of like the pathway through a space and wayfinding. And I know something that you guys do is branding and feeding that, like knitting that through the

design process. So architects wouldn't necessarily get on board with that, but it's really interesting when that is brought to the table by the interior designer and you kind of think, okay, is there like an emblem of the building that could be used or I don't know, something that could, that speaks of architecture and interior design at the same time. That's really cool when they

kind of complement each other. What do you think? I don't know if it's an answer to that question, but whilst you were just talking about that Pippa, I was thinking about how, I bet this is completely off-paced and you were all like, how on earth has your brain got from what I was just

talking about today? I was listening. I was just sat thinking about how I find it interesting that if you go back, I don't know, a hundred years and you look at some of the arts and crafts movements in architecture and the fact that you've got architects like Voicy, for example, who would design this incredible building. I'm thinking about the house in Frinton. There's a beautiful Voicy house in Frinton that I absolutely love. I think it's on Fifth Avenue or something. It's

stunning. But the concept of architecture then was that architecture was about not just the buildings, but everything within it. It's holistic, isn't it? When you do it together. It was always, we would have architects that were designing furniture and staircases and joinery. Everything was under there raining. It gives me goosebumps thinking about it. I just find it quite sad that I'm not doing architects now or designers a disservice now in the way that we are and the

way that the industry is. But I would think that architects would still have some input into the interior design to a point. Otherwise you end up potentially with something that's very disjointed. You've mentioned Pippa and I think this is probably one of my biggest questions for

you because it's a bit of a bug bear for me. Obviously when you're working in practice, you've got a lot of buildings that you work on that are heritage buildings and there obviously are stipulations on what you can and can't do in terms of not just building, but in terms of materials and the requirements to meet the heritage of the building, so to speak. Do you think, and it's a bit of a broad question. Sorry, I'm rambling on. I'm trying to work out

what question actually is. Whether or not you think it's important as an architect, if you're working on a building of an era that you should be, from a designer's point of view, we should be aware of the building that we're working on to dictate what the design, the interior design is. I'm not talking about listed buildings because obviously you're dictated to with that to a point. But do you not think that there should be some continuity and some...

Yeah, it's about being that the interior design should be honest and should reflect the age of the building, I think. Yeah. It's a really, really interesting point. Did that make any sense? It did. Yeah, no, it totally made sense. So around the houses. It's that fine line between something heritage, having new adaptations and it being repurposed and then not doing something pastiche. So not doing something that's kind of twee, that's trying to match.

Oh, absolutely. And also speaking of the time. So it's that real fine balance between respecting what's there, introducing, getting to current regulations and current standards and surface spread of flame and all of that sort of stuff. Fire, hello. That's big at everyone's forefront at the moment. Finding that way to sensitively introduce new whilst respecting old. Yeah. And I think that's key. But without, as we've said, trying to...

It's not about replicating, because that's not honest. No, no. Because you can't replicate something from 50 years ago in 2024. It just doesn't work, does it? Yeah. I think that's probably one of my biggest challenges that I come up against when I see people doing things with buildings and I'm like, what are you doing? I can't see. And maybe

if I spoke to them and they justified it to me, I would get on board with it. But I really struggle because it's so easy for anyone to just go in and do what they think is going to look cool without second thought about, okay, well, how does that compliment the building and the structure of what you've got? Whether that's like a 1950s brutalist building or something completely off this end of the scale. Yeah. I don't know. It's a tough one, isn't it? I think.

I think the collaboration is really, really important between architecture and interior designers. Whenever I've worked from the beginning of a project with an architect and had that input, it's been such a good project. And we're talking to the architect about the interior design and saying, this is what we think we want to do here. And if you're building a new building, what are you going to do in this space and what's going to happen? Where are things going to go? It's so

important. Where are you going to put the door? Almost comes second to that. For me, if we're working with a building and it's existing, you work around the existing building. But if the client wants X and this is the best way to do it, it's actually, if we collaborate together and we have a meeting every now and then, say for example, you were doing the architecture of a brand new

building. We were doing the interior design. If we actually started doing the interior design and started the concept stage while you were doing the bones of the building and then got together, actually we could talk about where I've got a concept and I've got this really cool wall that we want to put in here. And it works both ways, doesn't it? It really complements each other when you do it together. And I think in that instance, it's really good to have a project

manager so that there's somebody independent that's leading the consultants. So that you're feeding back to keep the designers together and ever so slightly detached from the actual project running. Because I think sometimes you guys have had experience of being project lead and then somebody else will come along and think, oh, well, hang on a minute, I'm project lead. Do you see what I mean? So to really keep it going. But something that you always come back to

is communication and trusting each other's skill sets. And I think just being honest with, because we're working with aspirational design that we bring. We're working with clients' expectations. We're working with budgets, which is always tricky. And actual physical space, like delivering an actual physical thing. So it's interesting, really, really interesting. I think you guys get to do a lot of fun stuff. I describe the difference between architecture

and interior designers. Because like my practice, we can do kitchens and we can do bathrooms and we can do bespoke staircases and maybe one-off joinery pieces. So if you were to take the building and shake it, then anything that sticks, we can do. But then all the other stuff is really, I think, the magic that you guys can bring. And I think that the surfaces that you touch, the door handle opening and closing, it's actually much more tactile. And you guys really bring value in that.

I think that's terrific. We've talked about how Hayley and I met. Is it helpful to know how you and I met, Cheryl? If I can remember. I did some guest tutoring on your course. I don't know if I was, was I pregnant then? You might have been. Wardling around university. I met Pippa when I was studying at uni. So Pippa came in to do some lecturing. Yeah, guest tutoring.

Yeah, guest tutoring. And then off the back of that, it must have been a few years later when I'd finished my degree that I then reached out to Pippa and was like, don't know if you remember me. Standard. Don't know if you remember me. It's been about three years, but I finished uni now. Would you like to give me a job? And we weren't in a position of hiring, but I did bring you along to meet some architects, didn't I? So yeah. And you sent me a

lovely sketchbook that I still have actually. Yeah, to say thank you. Because so many people, I was out, fresh out of uni. And I think it's so easy now for people to be quite blase and flippant like, oh no, I can't help you. Everyone's so busy. I get that. And it's just nice. I think when people actually do stop and take the time to have a chat and try and help as much as they can, I was like, oh, I'll just get a little sketchbook. Say thanks. It was lovely. Sent it to you to say

thanks for helping. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was, weirdly I was using that in lockdown, wasn't I? And then I sent you a picture saying, I've just found this. Yeah. And then, and then it was a complete coincidence that you connected with Hayley. Yeah. Hayley and I connected separately. And yeah. And here we are. And here we are. Yeah. It's mental, isn't it? Yeah. That was when I was,

I really, so I'm really, really passionate about education design. I think the space is, well, a space that you do anything, living, working, learning is, is really, really interesting. And for a while I was super passionate about educational design and I did my thesis on it. And then I've sort of dipped my toe into teaching and it was, yeah, it was really cool. Really nice to kind of share some passion with the next generation of designers and hopefully one day

I'll do a bit more. Yeah. I think you probably are doing it now. Percell, they were doing a, an event at Cultures is Six Forms and it was like a summer thing to do with Jumbo, the water tower, looking at the architecture there. And it was just, it was so nice seeing young people like 17, 18, applying and constructively looking at a building like Jumbo and coming up with ideas of what they would do with it. And I suppose that's what happens as you get to a certain age, you're like,

oh, that's really lovely seeing that coming through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And learning and, and kind of opening up the dialogue to not just be learning top down, but actually bottom up. Yeah. You know, and that's where apprenticeship schemes, I think are the way forward. I think it's absolutely amazing. They've got an architecture apprenticeship now and, oh, that's good. Yeah. It's absolutely terrific because you earn and learn. And I think there's always the chance that

when you study at uni, it's quite dislocated. The traditional architecture course is three years in uni, then a year working two years in uni, a year working, and then your final qualification. And fab, there's two years that you're actually working. Wonderful. But then in those five years, actually you can learn from live projects and it weaves into the course and then companies can then employ the apprentices moving forward because they already know the systems and

the clients and the procedures that that firm follows. So yeah, I'm all for apprenticeships. I think they're absolutely brilliant. There's a new interior design apprenticeship as well now. Yeah. It's really good. When I heard about it, I was like, you've been saying that for, yeah, because you've been saying that for ages, Hayley. I was going to write one. Yeah. Because I was just like, come on. I think a lot of people who go into interior design are not from university.

And I don't know whether it's because we're all really creative or what, and not probably as academic. So it fascinates me because interior design and architecture are really, for me, they overlap so much. And a lot of what I do is very architectural in terms of drawings and software that we use and things like that. But I think that people who go into architecture are much more academic than people who come through interior design. They're much more creative.

So I think for me, I was always wanting the apprenticeship because it's on the job training. And also because interior design is so vast in terms of the industry, our practice runs completely differently to the way other practices run. So whenever I had people coming in from other practices, they didn't know how to do the job. I've never actually taken anyone

on who's just come in and known what to do. It's not like where you, I don't know, if you're in the hospitality industry and you've got someone who's a waiter or a butler or something, they just come in and they just do the job. It doesn't work like that. And I think that's the thing that's and for me, I've always had to train everybody. So actually I quite like training someone from the ground up. Because there were no standards, no kind of set standards within interior design.

It's what you're saying. Yeah, it's quite frustrating at the same time. The diversity of the interior design industry is huge. I mean, some people will do a two-day course and then go, I'm an interior designer. And you can do that, but you can't do that as an architect. And it's crazy how lost that is. You can either go to university and get a degree and then go into interior design, or you can do short courses.

I mean, my degree is in business management and I've got experience, which has led me to where I am now. But you've did six years at uni. So it's such a, there's so many different paths to get into it. I think it's really, really positive to have different paths. And also, because life isn't linear, all sorts of things come along and divert a course and you have to make decisions. I think it's great that there are now ways to support the next generation coming through.

So if you are incredibly academic, you've got options to go to uni, but if actually learning on the job suits you and your personality and your lifestyle better, then that's absolutely brilliant. I think that's going to open up the architectural industry.

I really hope so. I really hope so. Because otherwise it's just people that, well, I mean, I suppose I am a classic example, but my dad's an architect and then I followed his footsteps because I think the thought of having that huge debt is probably quite off putting, the cost of studying. It's a long time. It's really the fees have changed since I qualified.

So I think that can be quite off putting. So having these alternative approaches, it just, it opens up to anybody that is kind of willing and eager to learn, which is terrific. There shouldn't be the barriers of finances and time with learning. It should be open to all. So can we, should we talk about parenthood? So balancing professional life with parenthood. So I think we should all explain our parenthood status. Should we? Yeah.

Okay. Shall I dive in? Okay. Well, so to become an architect takes seven years and for me to become a mum took me seven years, which I think is like coincidence. Number seven. Anyway, so I established myself in my career first and then I had my best friend, my dad, my dad, my dad, my babies. That was just how it was meant to be for me. And I'm really grateful that, like, I do not know how people study and have children. I have got so much respect for

people that do that. Literally. I was very blessed that it was just my own single focus. I have my children a little bit later. I was established in my career. So I have a three year old and a one year old. So the nights are tough. The days are long and weaving work in has been interesting. Yeah. He's going next. So I have a nine year old. I started up my business, harp design 18 months before I had him. He was a bit of a surprise. He was a

little bit earlier than I expected in my life. And, but I was an older mom. I was 35 when I had him and I actually didn't have any maternity leave. So straight back in. Oh, I just, so I'd landed a really big project in the, in the start of my business. It was massive for me at the time. I landed this 250,000 pound budget project for a kids play center in, in, in central London. And it was this project that I've been talking for what ages about, and then it

landed the week before I had Liam. Oh my goodness. And I'd employed somebody, it was just me at the time in my business and I'd employed somebody to cover my maternity leave for three months. And she just never left. She just came on board and she just didn't leave. So because we both needed to be doing the work, because we grew so fast. And I remember sitting at my desk, breastfeeding my son and typing a lot in the first few months. And it was, it was really tough. Yeah.

And, and I was supposed to be having maternity leave and I just couldn't do it. There was so much work to do. And, and the lady who had employed needed my guidance as well. And I was working at home at this point, I had a big office in one of the bedrooms at home. So it was quite good that I could dip in and out of the office and still go and make food and things like that and be at home. That was quite handy, but yeah, it was tough. It was really, really tough.

And then I was a, I was a lone parent after that for three years. And yeah, that was pretty, that was pretty hard going. But yeah, now he's nine. It's much, much easier. I've got a good, like you said to me earlier, Pippa, I've got a good support network around me. And I think that's what you've got to build, isn't it? And yeah. And I've worked, but I've worked pretty much full time since

he was born. That's incredible. But yeah. How about you, Jo? So as I mentioned, when we were talking about how Pippa and I met, I had the, so I went to uni when I was, well, I was a mature student. I can't remember how old I was. I can't remember what day of the week it is, let alone what year I went then. And three years into my degree, I got pregnant with Thea. So I was studying whilst being heavily pregnant. And then I think, so I had Thea in the July. That's kind of

handy. No, no, no. Was it in the summer holidays? June. She was born in June, not July. So I had Thea in the June and then I went back to uni in the September. And yeah. And was doing, and then obviously like Thea was, you know, full blown like toddler when I was doing my dissertation. And I'm not joking. I look back now and I think, like I can barely function at the moment with being a parent and working and keeping a house and trying to remember to buy food and

you know, all of the stuff that we all have to deal with. And I look back now at those months, like those last year of my degree and think, I don't know how I did it. Like I would put Thea to bed and obviously I had my ex-husband there at the time that he was there to support me and stuff, which was amazing. But yeah, my dissertation was done through the night. That's incredible. Like intersected by feeding her every two hours or whatever. And then, yeah, I just

don't know how I did it. Balancing work and because I throw myself into, as we all do, throw ourselves into what we do so hard that you constantly are like, well, there is no balance almost. It's like, I'm even focused on work and poor Thea is like, mom, I'm hungry. Like, just sort yourself out. Or I'm like, I have to shut work down and I have to focus on being a parent. Like it's so hard. I find it really difficult to do both. I can't, like in the summer holidays, I had

the team's call and he was chucking a bit of Lego across the room. And it's just like, brutal. I can't do this. I need to, and I've always been like that. I've always been like, I need to have a child. I need support. I can't work and be a mom at the same time. I'll tell you something that I really, and I really struggle with it now and I've struggled with it since having Thea. And I think it was more when I finished my degree. And so I came out of my degree with a

really good degree. I was really happy. I'd got a couple of awards. I'd got like the R.I.B.A. and the East Award. So I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Yes. You did so well. Got out. I was like, right. I'm not going to struggle to find a job because I remember your portfolio. It was really strong. And so I put myself out there. But because I'd got Thea and she was like two or three, maybe, I, and I really, really had to stick to my guns. I was like, right, I know what I can do. My

priority is being a mother that comes above everything else. But yeah, I can't just sit back and let my career like just go, you know, just, just disappear. So I put myself out there with architects practices and put myself forward and applied for jobs. And I was like, but the caveat is that I can only work part time because I've got a small child and it's really important that I'm there for her.

That's why that was my choice. And I honestly came across so many issues with that. I had firms, I had one really, really prestigious firm locally, who I was desperate to work for. Also, because I used to do all of my, all of my architectural drawings were done by hand. I don't know if you remember. I do. I do. Like bloody water colored stuff. Oh, with a two year old child, I'm just going to water color my dissertation. It was more on who to get. No, inspirational. Inspirational.

So there was a company that I'd applied for and they wanted to offer me a job. And I was like, really want to work for them, really want to work for them. And they were like, we, we're not like part time is an option. And it was a really tough one because I was like, I really want this job. Oh my God, I want this job so badly. But yet I'm so torn here because you're now asking me to choose between my career and my responsibilities as a parent. Like that's how I felt. Yeah. No, it is.

And I know it wasn't, they weren't asking me to choose, but that's how it felt. And I was like, I had to, it took so much for me to turn that down and be like, I'm not doing, I'm not doing full time. I'm not doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've huge respect for you for making that decision because it's really, really hard. So after I had due, I went back to work and I had quite a big promotion and I was put up to associate partner, which was amazing for the age that I was, the point in my career.

Granted, there was a little bit of, what's the word is it nepotism because my dad is one of the partners. Sure. However, I think you have to earn it more. Well, that's true. That's true. And there is another partner. Sure. People don't say that. They do that. Well, no. So, granted there was, you know, I already had a foot on the ladder,

but it was amazing. And I said to them, because I had like a review before I went on maternity leave and I was like, okay, I was trying to put myself forward to be a senior architect because I was like, I do this, this, this, and this. And I really feel like I could be a senior architect. And then I were actually thinking of associate partner for you. And I was like, oh my gosh,

this is amazing. So off I trotted on maternity leave. And when I went back, I was working with an HR consultant that really promotes women transitioning into more responsible positions in firms. And our portfolio was very busy and I had one child and I was like smashing it. I'd started this massive campaign with the RIBA, which about parenting and architecture. And yeah, I was like flying and it was doable. And my wonderful son, who I adore, he was absolutely

gorgeous. And we, did I say earlier, we had IVF for our, for our babies. And we still had some embryos left and Jude was like a year. So when they're still scrummy and juicy and you think, and everything had gone so well. She's like, I'll go on then. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just get another one in. And my goodness has this been a reality check. Like the pregnancy was a real challenge. The birth was bumpy postnatal. We also moved house the day after she was born. Would not recommend.

No, no, no. Wouldn't recommend. My husband was away so much more with work. I had a toddler, like literally Molly came out, dude turned into two, turned two. And I was like, you are a different child. Turned into two literally. Turned into the devil. Yeah. Overnight. I was like, Oh, what have I done? Little sister. Okay. Yeah. Exactly. I do hitting now mummy. Oh my gosh. And then, so part of my campaigning was all about elevating and supporting new parents within

architecture. So not just mothers, but also fathers and you know, shared parental leave and, and all of this business. So I thought, right, uh, going back to work was so easy with Jude. I'm going to go back at six months, Molly. And I know that that is such a blessing to have had the six months. Like, wow, to have had that time with her, with Jude, with the transition, the new house.

Wonderful. However, at six months, I was not ready to go back to work. Um, and it was finances that pushed me and perhaps also a slight arrogance thinking, Oh, I could take nine months, but I'm just going to do it in six. I can do this. I can do this. And kind of thinking that it would be like when I went back with Jude and I'd be flying and it would be wonderful. And it has been the biggest reality check. I found it so difficult. I've had to be really transparent about my mental

health, my capabilities, my time. And I just have the most monumental respect for mothers, um, for working mothers, even full time mothers. Wow. Um, and it's like, you mentioned earlier, Cheryl, that people say, Oh, it's so difficult and you don't know until you do it. And you really don't know until you do it. And I was so, like, we were talking about this

earlier, weren't we? I was so bad before I had a child. I actually remember Hannah, who works with me now, she worked for me a few years ago before I had Liam and she, she was a single mom at the time. And, um, I remember having a conversation with her after I had Liam and went, Oh my God, how did you do that? Like I have so much respect for you knowing what I know now. But at the time I remember not

respecting that kind of I've got to go because my child is, yeah, I've had a phone call. I have to drop everything right now. Yeah. And I think also with friendships, um, I would roll my eyes if friends with children couldn't do things. And now I'm like, Oh my gosh, I get it. And it's, it's really tough because so much, I'm still kind of in the real thick of it because my kids are

still very young. Um, and I've never really been somebody like I've loved bright colors. I'd love wearing dresses, but I've never really been like a super girly girl and all of that lovely, nice bits, like doing your makeup and all of that. Like, I just don't have time. Everything for me now is

second. And I cannot believe that I've had to shelve. So I said after Jude, I went back and as, as a, um, associate partner, well, partnership was, is, was on the cards, but I've had to actually say, do you know what I've had to hold my hands up and say, and I cannot believe I've had to say this, I can't do it. Yeah. I can't be a part. Yeah. Oh man. Because my baby's needed me. Yeah. 100%. And that's okay. Yeah. I think it's the expectation. It's, it's like we have,

I don't know if it's our, how we see other people's expectation on us. Yeah. That's the issue because you're so good at your boundaries with this. You're brilliant at this. Oh my God. I, I completely disagree. I completely disagree with that. But you've always been really stubborn about your childcare and like, I am not like, oh, when it comes to fear, when it comes to fear,

I, but it gives me a lot of, um, it causes a lot of anxiety for me. So the job that I've just recently stepped away from that big, um, hotel job that I am still involved in, but I've stepped back from that because I don't think that I'm needed in it because I've done what I said I was going to do and I can now move on. Um, you know, there was, I was very, very clear from the beginning, this is what you will get from me and you will get this from me because I have a responsibility

to my daughter to be available to her whenever she needs me. Yeah. Day, night, whether she's with me, whether she's with my ex, whether she's with her dad, whatever I need to be available for her. Um, and I'll do whatever I can. Yeah. But yeah, I always felt like when I'm doing the job that I'm doing, I'm not giving enough. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not giving enough. Hugely. I'm not doing enough. I feel like that. Like I'm just not, it's awful to say this, but I don't feel like I'm good at

anything that I'm doing. I just feel so split. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember feeling like that and it's battling with that and thinking, did I say earlier that I'm good enough? Like I am good enough. And I'm when you, Oh my God. When you, if you want to start talking about mental health paper, Oh my God. Like I hear you because it is a, it is a spiral that mentality

of not feeling good enough or not feeling that you're good at any part of it. Any part of life, parenting, work life, relationship, home, home, like, you know, I, I don't go food shopping from like one month to the next. And I'm just like, how on earth am I still alive and thea still alive? How is she like where, and I beat myself up about this stuff, but I'm like, well, hang on a minute. I'll work until midnight on a load of drawings that need doing, because that's what I have to

prioritize because it's fine. You know, I'm, I'm having to do it on my own and like, you know, it is, yeah, but it's a massive spiral. And as soon as you start getting into that self doubt and that feeling of not feeling like you're good enough and stuff, it's brutal. It is, it is. I was literally stood yesterday writing it really complicated. We've got an interesting project. And actually the brief incredibly complicated and it's taken me and another person and a long time

to get their heads around it. I needed to leave yesterday at one and at five to one, I was just shutting down my computer. Oh, should we look at this again? And I'm like, oh my goodness. And I can't, you can't, okay. I'll say, and then the whole time I was like, you're not good enough. You just need to, you need to, where are your boundaries? Like, so yeah, it's, it's really,

it's really tough, really, really tough, but I'm still totally finding my way. And I think the only way I'm going to be able to succeed is to just keep talking and being really transparent with my employers and as organized as I can be on the childcare front. And yeah, there we go. Yeah. Should we have a little break? Okay. Hello. Oh, she's, yeah, we're all on. And we're back in, we're back in the game. Back in play.

So we had a break and then we started talking about things that we needed to talk about. So I was saying that I think it's easier in terms of starting a family to already be in a job and then do it rather than having children and then applying for flexible or part-time working. And I think the new government are making changes to make flexible working much easier and to kind of put the weight on the employee. I don't know how that would like, cause now, so you never know

what's, what the future is going to bring. And it has been a really, really turbulent time for the industry in the last couple of years. So my job isn't anything like as secure as it used to be. And then you think, oh my gosh, so I could potentially be going out with my portfolio and saying, I can only offer you part-time. I'm a mother. So I will be in exactly the same position

that you were in and we'll just have to wait and see and see what happens. But hopefully, you know, there were lots of positives that came out of COVID in terms of like work life balance. And then we also really need to think about boundaries, which we were sort of talking about as well earlier. I don't like going back to the whole COVID thing, because obviously we use that quite a lot, I think now, and whilst obviously everybody learned a lot from that period,

I think the issue with boundaries that hasn't helped because it was blended. So yeah, because you were able, you had this kind of real freedom to do what you wanted when you wanted. I think a lot of people, you know, you were available all the time. You know, you weren't coming to work at nine in the morning, leaving the office at five. And so I'm only available to you as my employer between the hours of nine and five. And I think it's just become more and more apparent that

people during COVID, I was working with Hayley, but I was still freelance. And I think I'd said to Hayley like, Oh, you know, let me, I can pull back like I'll reduce. Cause I was thinking, shit, like, Oh, I've got no money coming in. And I was going through a divorce. So I was like, I think I gave you a job. We didn't put you on the payroll at some point. Yeah, a bit later. Yeah.

So I could sort my mortgage out. I love you so much. Love you so much. But yeah, like, so I would have been, I didn't have any boundaries then because I was like just people pleasing. I just needed to do whatever. I'm like, I'll do whatever I have to do to earn that money so that I can pay my mortgage at the end of the month. So yeah, I don't think that COVID has helped.

Well, certainly didn't help me with kind of setting boundaries, but I think it's helped with flexible working though, because it has made it a lot easier to work from home and working from home makes it easier to be a mom and work. But it's, it's hard. I hate it. Like I had two weeks in the summer where my son was off and I just hate it. I hate trying to work while I'm being a mom because I want to be a good mom. And you want to be good at your job. And I want to be good at my

job. And I'm like trying to do both at the same time is impossible. Like it's actually two things. And then you make the best plans and you take your laptop to your mother-in-law's and you think, yep, she can help with childcare while the nursery shuts. Then one of them's sick and you're like, oh, okay. So you're jigging and you're puking and you're typing and you're, oh my goodness. Yeah. It's tough. Literally. I actually want a medal. I want a medal. I want a medal for lots of things

that I do. And I think all women, like every single one of us, I'm not, I sound really like, it's not just women. We're all, it's men. It's just, it's being a parent. And it's, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is, I think we mustn't underestimate the impact that it has on fathers as well and partners

and blended families as well. That's all interesting fun and games and step parents. And yeah, it's a tough old game and there's a lot of societal expectations and trying to free yourself from those, I think as a woman, as a designer, as a mother, as a friend, you know, just kind of live and let live, try and be kind where you can. And deep breaths. Yeah. And do you know what, what will be, will be. Yeah. So true. Yeah. I've been reading quite a lot of books at the moment,

like the subtle art of not giving a fuck. That's a good one. That's really nice. The courage to be disliked. That's a good one. I love a good self-help. I've just read, I did an audio book when I was on holiday, the wealth that money can't buy. It's brilliant. Really, really good. It's really good for me because I've been, I did spend an awful lot of my life being quite money focused and actually I've actually got more money now than I had then. And I'm not so money focused. It's

really funny because I'm like, no, I'm not, I'm not doing that anymore. Yeah. Cause I was very, very driven. Even as being a mom, I would be up in the middle. I mean, you know me, I wake up in the middle of the night and send an email at 4 a.m. And I was going, what the fuck were you doing at 4 a.m.? I was like in bed. I was awake. I couldn't sleep. But see, I found that I had capacity to do that before a mom, before I was a mom. And now I don't have capacity. Maybe it's because my

baby sister was, no, but you were tearing up when your babies were so young. You've only got one. True. But hey, I think, I think one is enough. I can't even add two though, because I was a lone parent as well. Like I, I, there was, there was nobody else paying my mortgage with me. So I was kind of like, well, I haven't really got a choice, but to do this and I had to just muddle

through and just get it done. But my mental health has suffered from it. And you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not as, I'm much more together now, but I have, I have been on the brink a lot, you know? And there's been a moments where I've just gone to a meeting and then come out in tears because I'm, I haven't slept the night before and the client had given me some negative feedback,

you know? And it's just like, hang on a minute, I could normally handle this. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a- Put your face on while you're in the meeting, but then you come out and you're like, oh my goodness. Yeah. And then a phone call to someone just to let, let rip. I actually, after I finished work yesterday, I went, before I picked up the kids, I went and had a cup of tea with my mom and I had a good cry. And sometimes, yeah, my emotions are always quite on the surface,

but yeah, sometimes just a cry is what you need and a sympathetic ear. Yeah. I think also knowing that you're, that we're all in this together. Yeah. Yeah. I come here sometimes and sit with Hayley and chat with you about like my, you know, about my head and my brain. And I'm like, oh god, it's really tough. I think also, and I know I've spoken about, I've made comments, joked about age and stuff, but I do think I turned 40 this year and I'm like, right. I'm like half,

potentially halfway through hopefully. Who knows? I've had 40 years of life and that is challenging. It's all snowballed and snowballed. And then it's like, I kind of hit 40 and gone, not sure I'm all right with all of this. I don't want to get any older. Yeah. It's like, always like a little bit of a, yeah, a bit of an eye opener. And it's like, stuff's got to change. Things have got to change and I don't know what they are. I'm still trying to work that one out,

but just trying to get through the day, I suppose. Yeah. Well, this is, this is what I find so interesting is that the days feel so long, but the months and the years go by so fast. It's bananas. Yeah. I think when you've got a child as well, that I think you've watched them grow and you, and when they're growing, it highlights how fast the time is going as well, doesn't it? Yeah. It's crazy. Yep. I've got a nine year old. He's like a, he's growing. He's going to be bigger

than me. Yeah. It's mental, isn't it? Remind me how old's the, yeah. She's nine. She's nine. Oh, they're both nine. Yeah. Nine. Wow. And do you know what? I actually look at her now and I think, I can't believe it's taken me nine years to get to this point, but I like look at her and I think, this, this is what it's about. Right? Yeah. Like forget everything else. Forget paying mortgage, paying the bills, looking a particular way, getting to the gym, worrying about this,

worrying about that, my career, my this, whatever, all of it. None of it matters. None of it matters. I look at her growing up and the kind of person that she's turning into and I'm like, this is what it's about. This. Yeah. I do know what I quite often think. Oh, I wish I'd had more now. I can't anymore because I'm 44 now, but, and, but yeah, no, I wish I'd had, I'd wish I'd started younger so I could have had more children. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you won't

regret it when they're older. No, I'm not saying that you regret it. I think that it's just, when they're so small, when they're little, it's really challenging. It's even more challenging because they need you so much. Because they need you. Yeah. Whereas obviously we're at that point now with ours where, you know, like they've, they've got their own independence to a point, which is lovely to see. But yeah, apparently this is it. Like this is the nice bit when they're

about nine. Yeah. And then teenagers. And then they turn into smelly teenagers. Not looking forward to it. I've seen some signs already and I'm like, no, thank you. My son keeps doing the Harry Enfield sketch. You know, Oh yes. He's like, puts his shoulders down and like, hands them down. He goes, Oh my God. I know teenagers is just so, they can only see to the end of their nose and that's it. They can't see the bigger picture and they're like, Oh, boring parents. I've got a niece who's

16. So, um, yep. Yeah. Good luck. That's what she's saying. Oh, I know I've got a boy and a girl. So anyway, we shall see. We shall see how that goes. So people would like to talk about toilets and it brings us nicely onto insights into designing spaces that are both functional and family friendly. Yeah. So I wanted to talk about toilets is because what impact is like motherhood had to me as a designer. And I would say I spend a lot

of time in toilets and thinking about toilets and where is the nearest toilet? Yeah. Functionality. And I think that that also links into accessibility, which is a really, really important topic. So spaces for all, even if not everybody wants to spend their time with toddlers. Yeah. So yeah, making, so it's really, really important to have spaces that are accessible. And in terms of toilets, making them big enough to move around for more than one person, having the accessible

toilet actually accessible. And yeah, things that are nice, clean. I mean, this is just lends itself so well to that connection between architecture and the physical space and then the interior design of it. And if something is clean and fresh and easy to use, then it's kind of seamless design that you don't really notice, but when it's not there, it's so evident. Yeah. Yeah, completely. Yeah. I don't, I've just got myself a radar key because my son has got ADHD and we need to use disabled

people. Yes. Which is brilliant, but I've found it really, I've got a radar key because I've been in a situation where my son's nine and I need to go into the toilet with him. He can't really go into the women's because he's too old and I don't really want to leave him to go to the men's because he's not really able to be on his own yet. And, you know, having, having a radar system, I don't think is a very good thing to do. I think maybe if you had a radar system and you had another

accessible toilet, great. You know, if someone wants to have the radar key thing, but I think it's really bad to close the toilet. I think it's bad. Yeah. No, I hear what you're saying. And that that throws in like gender neutral spaces, which is quite a hot topic. And I think if we could, as a society move towards that, it would be wonderful because then like things like it will be wonderful if men's toilets have got a changing facility. So then it's not just

on that. We've spoken about this. We've spoken about this on previous podcasts as well. How is that? It's 2024. I don't get it. I don't get it. I know it shouldn't be that. Oh, did you know this pub's got a changing facility at the top? It should just be a standard. You know, the building control have changed and you have to have a men's and a women's separate facility now in a new build. You can't put gender neutral toilets in a new build. You have to have, well, this is what

I've been told. I haven't read this, but my husband was talking about it the other day. So they're going away from gender neutral because I think gender neutral would be better, but I guess, okay, so they're moving away from that. And if you've got, you're not allowed cubicles. So if you've got individual toilets that have got walls to the floor, you can have neutral and a

space to wash your hands. You can have gender neutral, but if you're talking cubicles with the space underneath, they're saying that you can't have a gender neutral toilet with the gaps underneath and shared. I see. Well, there we go. So I think it's bouncing backwards. I think women feel threatened. I think that that's the key thing in it is that women are feeling threatened

with the fact that men can use the same space as them in a vulnerable position. I don't know. I don't know why, because I love the gender neutral thing and I've always pushed it on all my clients and a lot of my clients push back, a lot of them. Interesting. It's just like, okay, you've mentioned that you don't want your son to be going into the women's with you. That's going to become more and more of a thing. And I'm now saying in my conversations with my son, oh no, you can't

go in that one. Mommy can't go in that one because that's for men. And it's like, oh, for goodness sake, like gender is just still, it's interesting how it weaves its way into regulations and also day to day experiences. Yeah. Is there anything to stop you going into the men's toilet as a woman? It's not all legal. Again, it's just society's expectation. It is. Yeah. Yeah. So actually, if you are with your son and he needs to use the bathroom and the only toilet that is

available is a men's toilet, then go for it. I'm going in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair. I don't know. It's tough, isn't it? Has being a mum affected you in any other way, apart from the toilets subject? In terms of my job, yeah, I've had to really lower my own personal standards and I struggle with that every day. I may have said earlier that I can only be good enough and as a people pleaser that's a little bit of a perfectionist, that's really, really tough.

This is sort of the hours that you work. Yeah, the hours. And yeah, I don't know. And I suppose I would say that I'm now more sensitive to my client's needs. I think I just sort of took it as black and white, whereas now I think I really listen more. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a real asset as a designer is to be able to listen. Yeah. I think I'm more understanding of parents

generally in my job. If I'm working with somebody who's got children, I'm much more kind of understanding when a phone call comes in and they go, I've got to go, my son's not well. And they just disappear. Yeah. I'd like go, go. Yes. Yeah. Please go. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I think maybe as an employer as well, you might feel a little bit

different. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Cheryl, do you have any insights into designing spaces or how has a mother influenced your approach to design and architecture? I'm very aware of designing. So any design work that I do is so functional that it's almost, it's for example, at home, if I'm doing something at home, you know, I would never do anything at home that when Thea was younger, I'd be saying to her, oh no, you can't touch that.

Oh, you can't touch that. Or like, I want her to be able to touch what she wants. And if the product that I've put in there isn't good enough, then it's the wrong thing to have in there. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. Like I will pick my battles and my battles are not going to be telling her to not touch that or to not put hands on that. Or I kind of want to be precious about

the stuff that's in my house or, and I kind of probably take that. It's a very personal thing, but I probably take that approach to a lot of the design work that I do where if I'm working with a, so I was helping my friend Dave with his little cafe. Obviously I knew that he was going to get kids in there going in for coffee and ice, you know, coffee, but for ice cream and the mom's

having coffee or dad's having coffee. So the product that's going in there, I'm designing with the idea that there are going to be kids in there and not all of the kids that are going to be nine years old and are going to sit down and be well behaved. Some of them are going to be little shit bags. Well, when you've got like a toddler or a child that's weaning, you end up with more food on the floor than you do. Yeah. They just throw it, don't they? I think I'm probably just more

conscious and more aware of that kind of stuff. Obviously I would hone that if I've got a client that wants, has a very expensive taste and they're like very much, no, that's what I want. Okay. That's whatever you want to do. So do we have any advice for aspiring architects and designers? Do you want to do architects first? Yeah. Okay. I would say look at all of the different studying options because there's so

much, so many more options available to you, which is terrific. And try and get a bit of work experience where you can. Don't be afraid to pick up the phone and call people and describe yourself and what you've got to offer. And I think you would be surprised that perhaps like, just keep persevering because people do actually really respond well to a voice at the end of the

phone. Look at the options, reach out to people in industry. And if you like problem solving and you enjoy working with people and you've got a passion for design, then architecture could be a really good fit for you. Well said. I think that picking up the phone thing is a really good point because I get so many people email me about a job, but not many people ring me. I can't remember the last time someone rang me. But if I had somebody ring me on our work phone and say,

there's an aspiring interior designer on the phone. Oh my God. Hopefully I'm not going to get bombarded with calls now. I'm going to cut that bit out. But if that was happening, I would totally talk to you. If I had time, like that would be different. Well, you also just get way more from a conversation in terms of a personality than you would from any form of email or, you know, yeah, I would completely agree. Just keep reaching out to people. Yeah, definitely. And interior

design is there's so many different ways in. And one of the things that I've found is that a lot of people who have career changes are really, really good interior design. I've got a Lily who's working for us at the moment is on her summer holidays. She's at university at Norwich studying interior design. And she worked at ASDA before that. She's 25, 26. And she brings, I mean, I was taking on a student for the summer. I wasn't expecting a huge amount, but she's brought so much

to the table. And because she's worked somewhere else, she's worked in retail, dealing with the general public. And she's got that experience behind her. She's confident. She'll pick up the phone. She'll do whatever she needs to do. And she's got such an edge over other students because of that. So I would say to anyone who's going into interior design, like have a part-time job as well. Don't just do that. It's about being the right fit, reaching out to employers on the phone.

What else? I would say, maybe from an interior designer's perspective, so from anyone out there, there's maybe a budding designer looking to kind of get into the field. Oh, budding. Budding. There it is. Why have we got such a problem with budding? It's just a horrible word, isn't it? Yeah. Isn't it? If you're a budding designer. If you're a budding designer.

Perspective. Yeah. Aspiring. Aspiring. Yeah. I think if you're an aspiring interior designer, or you're thinking that that might be something that you want to kind of look to do professionally, my advice would definitely be, I'm not saying for a second, go and study architecture for a bit, like do one part of the course or whatever. But I think there's so much access and like

information is so accessible now. It's easy to actually read a book on the principles of architecture because I think having that in addition to just design, to be able to actually see the entire project from an architectural point of view, as well as an interior designer, interior designer perspective, the two of them together, I think is really important. And I think it's just knowledge, isn't it? You can go networking, can't you?

You can speak to architects and designers. There's loads of places that you can go, like events and things like that, and talk to people if you're not sure which way to go, because a lot of people would go, oh, interior design or architecture. Yeah. More creative in interior design, would you say? I don't know. It depends where it would go. It depends what sector. I think it's relative though, isn't it? It's completely relative to the project that you're working on. More academic.

Architecture. I would say yes. What's the difference? What is the difference between architecture and interior design? If you were giving advice to aspiring architects and designers, if somebody was going, what should I do, architectural or interior designer? What's the difference? What would you say to them? I would say, so a lot of the software is similar, client liaison is similar, the way that projects are delivered is similar. I would say perhaps you can also do project management in both

regulations. You have to follow with both. Probably, there are a lot of hoops that you have to jump through to qualify as an architect. Then there's a lot of, we have to do continual training and we are so conscious of risk because of the construction design management regulations, because of the building regulations. If you love a regulation and you like a qualification, it's for you. It's for you.

I suppose really the day-to-day job is only really a sprinkling of creativity, whereas I think perhaps interior designer has got more scope for more creativity. I think the deeper you get into interior design, the more regulations come up. That's the thing. There are regulations and standards across both fields. But the thing is, I don't think you can ever put, whilst architecture and interior design are supposed to go hand in

hand, they don't always, they are two very different things. Obviously, they are two completely different career paths. I think from an architectural point of view, the technicality of the structures that you're dealing with and the knowledge that you have to have isn't saying that interior design is lesser or more than. They're both equally as challenging, but very, very different, aren't they? Yeah. I think as an interior designer, it depends on what kind of designer you want to be.

There's some interior designers are just not very architectural and some interior designers, like when I present an interior design scheme, I will do it in CAD and I'll do it in InDesign and I'll do it full on professionally. Some interior designers don't do that. You come across some people sometimes, don't you, that are a little bit quite flamboyant and very avant-garde. They would be the kind of people that would just scribble something on the

back of a napkin and just be like, that's what you should do, darling. That's who I'm talking about. But yet, they're so switched on and they're so good at what they know, but the way that they communicate that information is not... Yes, absolutely. I've learned to be more technical because I work with architects and I work on big projects and so do you. You have to be. I kind of wish that I was a bit more like back of a fag packet. Yeah, but you're too ambitious.

Basically like Picasso or something. I don't know. I've picked up after interior designers who have just put pictures together and some fabrics and that's what they do. That's fine if you're delivering the project. I could put together pictures and fabrics and just... I'm doing my sister's... I'm decorating my sister's house at the moment. I do it at home. Like the whole thing and they've given me free reign. They're just like, do what you want. We trust you. I'm like, oh, awesome.

And that is literally just a quick mood board of a couple of snapshots of some images. That's the kind of thing that I'm going for. And they're like, yeah, but because I'm delivering it, because I'm doing the decorating for them and putting it together, it's like, that's cool. It's fine. It only becomes an issue when you've got all these ideas that are up in your head. You know what you want to create and then you just give really nothing and be like,

that's what you need to try and replicate. Like it just doesn't work, does it? If anything, I'm a bit jealous that you guys get to do lovely colorful bits and bobs. Look at catalogs. Do you think that's what we do? Look at catalogs. You've got a whole library. You've got a whole materials library. I love my library. It is. Yeah, it's incredible. No, I don't think that that's what you do, but isn't it lovely that

you can weave. Do you, obviously in your practice, do you ever capture interior design? Do you ever get asked by clients to, if you're doing a, I think it's different if you're doing a project, maybe that's an extension or something. I think it's different if you're doing a project, maybe that's an extension or a renovation and

you're restricted by the stipulations of what's currently there. Or if you're doing a complete new build, something really edgy, a bit like a really contemporary project, would you ever get involved in the interior side of things? Lighting? Yes. Bathroom? Yes. Kitchen? Yes. And some joinery elements you spoke about. Some joinery elements, but nothing more than that. No, no, that's not where our expertise lie. There are firms that offer an interior design service and they employ

interior designers and I have worked in a firm. That was really cool actually working- In London? Yeah, they did a lot of interior design stuff. Yeah, it was really, really awesome. So they did some stuff in house. They also had other interior designers that they worked

collaboratively with. And yeah, that was really nice. Really, really nice to see more of the, or to be more involved with the final delivery of how actually, but my current practice, it's kitchens, bathrooms and lighting is really, I mean, you could do a whole podcast on lighting. Yeah, we need to do that. Yeah, because it is just natural light, LED, lamps, strip lights, just, there's so many roof lights. The connection to the outside, inside, moods, different time of

day, sun paths. There's just so much. It's wonderful. Light is very, very special. Maybe they can come and help us with that. Oh, okay. If you'll have me back. Yeah. Future trends in architecture and interior design. So what do we think is coming up? Well, AI is still a big thing. And whether you love it or are intimidated by it, it will be really interesting to see how that impacts the construction industry and interior design.

So that's one thing that's kind of on my radar. Another thing is biophilic design, which is a real catchy term. And that's just basically green living plants inside, outside the blend between the two and living walls. That's really exciting. So those two things are on my radar and smart homes as well. That's another. We touched on, because obviously we did the podcast live from the HRC show. HRC. And we touched on biophilic design then. And obviously we were saying, you know,

biophilic design has been around, like it's been on the radar for a good few years now. And I don't think it's going anywhere. I think people's awareness around it is just growing and growing and growing, isn't it? So smart homes is something that I'm getting asked for more and more. I'm doing it, hopefully just pitching for a project at the moment. And they've asked me to do two flats

that are going to be rented out in a quite prestigious area. And they're going to try and do one, or they're going to, they want me to do design one with a smart home system with all the tech in it and high end. And they want me to do another one, which is not got the tech in it. That's more basic, but still, still high end in that market. And they're going to see which one, wow, that's interesting, which one gets the rent. So yeah, it's quite, that is so cool.

Oh, you'll have to report back the findings. Yeah, definitely. And the uptake and yeah, that's really, really interesting. Cause I know with things like passive house, can you explain what passive house is? Of course I can explain what passive house is. So passive house is where the building system, it's like its own ecosystem. So it kind of breathes and runs itself for the inhabitant and they don't necessarily have control over it. It's like a system

that runs in the background. It's magic. It's not, it's very clever. And the interesting thing is that human element and being able to have control over your environment, because the principles with passive house is that it's kind of like a sealed box and it brings all the air in. Whereas I think as humans, we love to kind of connect with nature and if you're hot, you throw open a window. So it will be really, really cool to see on that project how the end user really responds to that, the

offering of it being a smart home or a home that they control themselves. Yeah. Yeah. The smart home will be more expensive to rent. So it's going to be more, it's going to be higher end. So what they're doing is testing the market to see what is, if they can get the return on investment from adding the AI and everything, because it's quite a prestigious area. Or if they're not going to, you know, how much rent can they get? How much more rent can they get by

putting a smart home system in? That's quite cool. We were talking about AI just before the podcast, weren't we? And I've been, and we need to do an AI podcast and we will, but I've been using InDesign to create images. Can you show me this? Oh my God. I can't. I'm so excited about this. Oh my God. I can't. Oh, I can't show you. I can't show you. No, I'm just so excited about it because I often try and find images for my concept boards that I can't find because it's something that I've made

up in my head and I can now generate an image, which is what is in my head. Yeah, that is pretty cool. Yeah, really cool. And I've been using ChatGBT to just help me with briefs and just, just, it's not necessarily writing them for me. It's, it's, I'm writing a brief and then that, then I kind of need it to be sort of CDM friendly. And then they've got, I could just put it into ChatGBT and it goes, please can you make my brief CDM friendly? And it just, it doesn't do all of it,

but it does it a lot quicker than I can do it. So it's really, I'm using it a lot at the moment. Really loving that. So it gives you the framework and then you build on it. Cool. Voice activated, smart homes. Yeah. Voice activation. Oh yeah, my notes. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if I said anything else. Oh yes. So adaptive reuse, which I thought that's an interesting term and that really connects into, so using existing spaces basically. And I think it's a very interesting topic of what

are we going to do with our high streets? Because obviously people are really shopping online and it's how to make them still usable and accessible and affordable and yeah, urban design. I think that will be very interesting to see what route that takes in the future. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. There's a lot of competitive socializing going on, isn't there? There's like things like axe throwing and gaming and things like that coming up. Yeah. But town centers are still empty,

aren't they? I know. It's so sad. I think they should just turn it into residential. Yeah. Residential, restaurants, bars, cafes. So you've got a hub. Yeah. For people. I disagree. Do you? Tell me. Tell me more. I think that the world is wrong and I think that we need to go backwards a little bit. I think we're way too ahead of ourselves with all of it. I think that I hope that it will go full circle and people will realize that it's not about online shopping.

And that was never what it was meant to be about. And all of that is all bullshit actually. What we need is we need to go back to our roots and we need to go back to having small local businesses that we support. And we go in and we communicate with the people that are running them. And we talk about what it is that we're looking for and what we're after. And they source it for us and

they find it and we connect with them and we interact with them. And we buy something that we love because we've put effort into buying it and they've put effort into selling it. And do you know what I mean? Rather than this very quick society that we live in where everything is available next day. Everything is available next day. Instant gratification isn't it? Yeah. Which is that's my vision. I'd like to think that I'm not saying that we go back like 50,

60 years, but I think personally that we've all just lost sight of. Because we were talking about AI a minute ago and obviously saying how incredible it is that we can use AI to find that image, for example. And it is, it absolutely is. But my brain already is thinking like the conversation that we've just had about expectations, people's expectations on us to do a job, to be a mother, to do all this and the stresses and the pressure we put ourselves under. And that we never feel

like we're doing enough. And then things like AI come along and you're like, well, that's great because that means that I can do my job quicker. Yeah. That's what you're just saying. I can do my job quicker. Well, that's great. But in five years from now or three years from now, when AI becomes even bigger and even bigger, everyone's expectations now become, well, you should be doing your job even quicker, Hayley, because you're using AI for 20% of it or 40% of it.

So then that breeds more self-doubt in our minds of, oh, I'm not enough. I'm not doing it well enough or I'm not quick enough or do you know what I mean? Like it opens up a huge can of worms and then it comes to pricing and you start thinking about costing it. Well, are people going to start saying, well, hang on, if you're using AI to produce this element of it, because it's more

productive and effective and efficient, then the price needs to be half. But we're already, we're already, people already don't want to pay what they have to pay to get work done because they can't see the value in this stuff. That's how my brain works anyway, with stuff like that. Sorry. Yeah, you said some really, really interesting points and so much that you can take

away and chew over. Probably really, really pessimistic and I don't mean to sound like that and I'm sure that it will probably go the other way and it will be an incredible tool. But my brain is always like, I think we are all so caught up in all this new, the weight, the speed in which we are advancing is so quick that it doesn't give any of us time to actually stop and think, is it the right thing though? Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Absolutely. Is it the right thing? Oh, everybody's doing this, so I'm going to do that. Not, but is it the right thing that we should be doing? Yeah. And will we get so far to the point where actually you can't go back on it? Yeah. Yeah. There's a point of no return, which has probably already happened. The train's left the station, it's rolling, you can't stop it. But the population is increasing at such a rate that actually

the town centers are going to grow anyway. It's gone back because of online shopping, but that's as far, I feel like we're kind of where we're going to be. If you're online shopping now, you're going to be online shopping. But if I need to go and buy something for an occasion, and I need it now, I really want to go and try that dress on, or I really want to go and do

something like that. And the town centers are going to... I don't know. I hope that. You say that though, but we go back to AI, you've only got to look on Instagram and see all of these AI apps that you can now download where you can upload your picture of your face and it'll show you what haircut is the best suited to you based on your skin color, eye color, tone, everything.

So I appreciate what you're saying about going and wanting to try on a dress, for example, for a special occasion, but there will come a point where that is taken away from you, because there's something in place to do that for you. And again, rather than thinking, oh, but I really enjoyed going and trying on those dresses, like four or five different shops or little boutiques or whatever, because it's normal and it's out there and everyone's

doing it. It's that kind of herd mentality, isn't it? Yeah. Oh God. I don't mean to sound really... Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do. I do. Definitely. Well, no, I'm just processing because you kind of said you think it will go back. I would like to think it would go back. I don't think it will go back. No, I would like it to go back. I don't think it will go back. No, I would love to think that it would go back a little bit,

just a little bit. Yeah. Just a little bit. I think it will a bit because I think there's a lot of people out there who are suffering from mental health problems at the moment. And I think a lot of that is down to technology. Yeah, definitely. 100%. Yeah. I mean, Hayley's always slightly shocked that I don't do social media and I really don't. It's just not good for my mental health. No, no. And that sort of weaves itself into business and it weaves itself into

motherhood and that instant gratification. So I was listening to a parenting podcast and they did a reward for their child and the child wanted the reward then. And it's like, actually, I have to go to a shop or I have to go to a bank to take out the money. Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting. I think it shows that I am aging because I now say, in my day. Yeah, I hear what you're saying, because I obviously have got such a strong opinion on this. And I worry because I'm

going to get left behind. I'm already left behind. Snap. Like fully, and I have no shame in saying that. Fully left behind because I'm not up for all of that. I'm not interested in it. None of that. I'm like, I'm cool. And I know we laughed earlier about my dissertation. I'll do everything by hand and I'll water color it. And what was I thinking? Do you know what? I'm okay with that. Yeah. And I'm okay with the fact that I would rather, I picked up a notepad the other day and a pen

and I started writing a letter. Wow. Yeah. To someone that I used to work for. Someone that I used to work for. Who has always written me letters. Like every six months. I'll get like nine pages from her. Wow. And it's brilliant. Like you make a book out of them. It's awesome. She's got a really amazing way with words and I just love reading it because I can hear her in it. Yeah. And I found them all the other day in my little folder and I started reading them and I

was like, Oh my God, I need to write back. I have never written back to her. I was like, I need to write. I need to write to her. So I started writing a letter and I'm like, why? But isn't it funny? Like how I say that I'm writing a letter and you're like, why would you do that? That's just because I'm like, Miss Technology and I hate writing. Yeah. Whereas I'm completely the opposite. Completely the opposite. Oh, see I see the beauty of both. The benefit of the email and also lovely.

I love sending cards. So yeah, I see the beauty of both. But isn't it getting expensive? Oh God, let's not start on that. Don't worry. Everything's so expensive. Well, thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been so, so lovely. Was it easier than you thought? Yeah, no, I was really very nervous about coming and I thought, oh my gosh, am I going to say the right things? And it's been lovely. So thank you both so,

so much. Thank you for coming. I was going to say thank you for having me, but you're not having me. I literally could just sit and chat all afternoon. Same. Yeah. So good luck editing. Especially with me not being able to string a sentence together. I'm so sorry. Great. Thank you for coming on. It's been a pleasure. It's been a joy. Will you come back and do another one another time? Yes, please. I'd love to. Yeah, I'd absolutely love to. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.