How to Deal with Burnout

Today, and in all other happy scientists podcast episodes you get to benefit from his you're like words of wisdom to help you increase your performance enjoyment and success in the lab. In this episode we'll be discussing a topic that many of us will deal with, or at least think we will deal with at least one point in our life, and that is born right okay Ken let's talk about how to deal with Burma.

Except i'm not i'm not burned out now i'm surrounded by people that tell me how hard they're having it and how burned out, they are, and it got me thinking, I wonder how many times. It is that people aren't actually really burned out what they are is they're just tired. And so the question would be then, how do you tell the difference, well, I can tell you what's been working for me. If i'm feeling like i'm burned out if I take a break, and I feel better.

i'm not if I can get get some rest or take a nap if I can have some kind of change of pace, you know whether that's sit down and watch the game. Or maybe you know get out of the House and it stops I know i'm not burned out, but if you find that you're taking steps like that and it's not helping. that's that's a different story now now we're talking about actual burnout now I don't want to take away from those of you that aren't.

aren't having according to oil burnout because if you're feeling stress that way you know you do need to deal with it, and it is a good thing for you to take a break or to. get some rest or or make some change by all means feel free to do that, but if you've been taking steps like that and it's not working, and you get scared. And you're starting to think I don't know what i'm going to do here, because i'm i've done everything that people say you should do and it's it's not changing anything.

Then, then we can look a little deeper now some other other signs that that you might be burned out is. A sense of prolonged stress like stress has been there, so long you're not even sure where it started but it's ever present and won't ever go away, sometimes it gets worse than other times, but the baseline is always there so that could be a sign of burnout.

Or you find you're being overwhelmed by things and often about things that that to your mind shouldn't be overwhelming you know why am I overwhelmed at this toddler right now i'm overwhelmed by. What is the normal workload, you know and the lab Why am I overwhelmed by having to deal with the same colleagues those had to deal with you know being consistently overwhelmed can be a sign of burnout also.

Now, if you find yourself just unable to meet the demands of your normal daily routine things you used to be able to do, but you just can't. Or maybe it's, not even a matter of it's used to maybe, things have changed but it's it's what should be an acceptable level of requirements of you, and you see other people around you able to manage it, but you can't well again that can be a sign of burnout.

Another thing you may encounter is that whatever is on your plate you just don't feel like it you just you've got no motivation about anything. You know you don't want to bother the well you don't want to bother to go to the gym you don't want to bother to go to work you don't want to finish that report. You don't want to write that study you don't want to do that experiment you don't want to do anything okay well that kind of lack of motivation, especially if that's a change can be.

If you find you're just interested in your surroundings things that used to excite you things are used to find energizing or beautiful or. You know enjoyable to be around you just don't care anymore you don't care if if things are neat and tidy around around your workspace you don't care. The things are in good working order you don't care the things are clean you don't care the things are safe, you know, again, these can be signs of burnout.

Another thing you can look at it's just yourself or neglecting yourself, are you not bothering to get a decent amount of sleep. Are you are you just staying up watching YouTube videos for no reason whatsoever and in at a time when you really should be in bed. Are you finding that you know i'm not going to buy you just don't want to bother to comb your hair brush your teeth or.

You don't want to bother you know going to the hairstylist or or or whatever routines that you're you're typically used to, or you get to a point where, maybe even people are noticing and saying you know. Maybe you should you should pay a little more attention if you get two buttons on button than your shirt what's what's up with that or.

Two like I hate to tell you, but your breasts kind of bad these decks or or like you gotta wash your hair every once in a while or or whatever it might be, you know, are you are you just not taking care of this, this wonderful vehicle that you're walking around in your body. And finally. What kind of emotions are you having are you experiencing anxiety to a level that it's really getting in a way.

Well, let me, maybe it's not even that maybe you're just being cynical about everything you just think everything is going to everything's going to go bad. Every possible negative thing is likely to happen and I hadn't even thought of all the negative things that could happen, yet, but i'm going to put some time into that work on you know.

Or are you feeling hopeless feel like i'm not even gonna bother thinking about it it's it's the whole world is going to blow up that's just the way it is and there's nothing I can do. Are you having those kind of emotional reactions to things again, these are all all these things could be signs of burnout. Now some of you out there are going to recognize this list and go okay.

individually those things have happened to me in my life here in there and we've all had that happen we've all been stressed, sometimes or overwhelmed or. or stopping attention to ourselves or lack motivation, but in other cases, if you're finding that you know.

Some of these symptoms looks so familiar I can't remember not being without them or i'm having so many of these symptoms are ones that this is, this is a change, this is, I haven't had this before, or worse, yet this is how it's always been for me. So if you made it all the way to being you know, a PhD scientist in the lab and you've been burned out the whole time while you need to write a book and tell people how you survived it.

chances are this hasn't been your your normal course all the time, so if it does pop up, it can be pretty disturbing because it's not normal it's not a place, you should stay and it's not replacing need to stay. there's no requirement to to your job or your career the burnout should be a normal part of it, it doesn't it doesn't have to be that way. Now, another thing is the kind of the labels that we use to describe burnout because some people they don't want to admit they're burned out.

And, and so they try to try to label it in such a way that well that doesn't apply to me is the only thing i'm feeling is physical but emotionally mentally i'm fine. Or, the only thing i'm feeling is emotional let's it's just the emotion to worry about that who cares or it's just mental stuff i'll get over it. It can happen in all those areas in in can show up in different ways, and again this is still a way of recognizing that something's going on that you've got some some of the symptoms here.

And I wanna I want to take one them aside here and come to that look i'm not speaking as a psychologist i'm not speaking as a counselor. If you really feel like you need some support in that way, by all means get some professional help now. And if you if you're not comfortable with professional help perhaps you will be comfortable maybe you've got a mentor in your life, maybe you've got a trusted associate that you can lean on.

By all means reach out to somebody don't don't try and do it alone, you know we humans are social creatures and you know we all need support some time. So back to how one might experience this for now physically, it could show up as tiredness and especially tiredness that doesn't make sense to me it's like.

I understand i'm tired after I just cleaned out the garage you know for six hours but it's like i'm tired I didn't do anything okay that may be a sign or you've got you know aches in your body that that again don't have an organic source or you're having headaches, you know. I hate to say that headache certain normal because I don't wanna I don't want anybody who has said X to feel like How dare you say such a thing.

But we don't have to have headaches for having a headache something's up so you know, again, all of these things can be sense of burnout that's a physical sign. Or perhaps what's happening in your case so you're finding that emotions are arising, that are getting in your way and you don't find to be. helpful or positive like you're angry all the time and you're getting are you getting angry about things don't make sense to get angry about.

Are you getting angry in settings where it's not professional to be angry, you know so that might be a signal or your apathetic you just don't care. And I promise you, if you get to the point that you are in your life, where you are a full time scientists in a highly educated one there's no way you've been an apathetic all your life not possible so that's happening that's a sign something.

You may be facing distress things things are upsetting you or or scaring you and he's like I don't know if you can you can feel that you can cope with it. You don't know if you can take the pressure, these can be science of it or you're overwhelmed like there's just too much going on, I can I can do any one one of these 10 things but I can't do all 10 at once, you know might be out of your outlook, yes.

So that's that's in a way that burnout may show up emotionally and then mentally and mentally maybe the most scary one for somebody in your field. If you feel like I can't think I used to be able to look at something and I just understand it now I can't wrap my head around it, or I can't focus it's like Okay, I could I could think about it, if I can give it to my attention but i've got so many things distracting me.

Or you becoming forgetful you're dropping the ball on things we didn't use drop the ball on and or, finally, you seem like you feel like you've lost your imagination it's like I just I just can't come up with a new anymore. All of that stuff whether it's physical, emotional or mental can all be.

symptoms that show up about burnout and in can give you a clue that something is up So the first thing I want to say to you is if you've gone through all this and you have you have now self diagnosed holy cow I think i'm burned out don't be afraid. it's not an insurmountable problem and it's funny because the nature of being burned out makes it.

It feel insurmountable it's it's just kind of it's kind of one of the characteristics, one of the way you miss ways, you know you're burned out is because you don't think you can get over over being burned out. But that's that's not true that's that that is, that is just. of subterfuge that it puts up. So there are ways, there are ways to handle is now, I will say For those of you who have stuck around, even though you're not personally burned out.

I wanna I want to thank you for doing that and I want to point out to you something you can do, then you probably are already doing when it comes to burnout is to get in front of it. You know the the the old saying is an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure and it's so true if you can look for signs that. That might be leaving to burn out when you start to experience some of the things that we talked about earlier you start to recognize some of that stuff.

And you make, and you take steps, then to well i'm going to take a break i'm gonna i'm going to do something that will actually help, and you know. For some folks there are there steps you're willing to take, and there are other steps you're just not I know for some folks if I suggest the notion of taking a nap. They laugh and just push it away it's like all wouldn't that be great but i'm not three anymore, and they just won't consider they won't they won't even.

Consider the possibility that they could take a nap, let me tell you something, especially if you feel that way you need to take a nap. But they're wonderful when it comes to that, and you know, sometimes we feel like we can't take a break, because we've looked at our schedule and you know it's it's too there's no spot in there, take a break and. I saw this little meme that was floating around the other day that said that you know everyone should meditate for 20 minutes every day.

Unless you don't have time, in which case you should meditate for 60 minutes, every day, so it's the it's the same kind of thing. You fit things in because they're important everything that's on your schedule got there because it was important, and if you start to realize that protecting yourself from getting burned out as important. You will schedule time for you'll you'll make room for it. And you start to recognize that this is a matter of taking care of yourself.

And at the end of the day, who was responsible for taking care of you, you know you're an adult now mommy's not going to take care of you it's you you're going to take care of you. And if you're not going to go on to do it, you can't wait around for somebody else to do it, and you know this, you know romantic notions. My significant other is going to take care of me well that's nice if they do, but you can't count on them to do that, you can't.

You can't make it their responsibility to put it that way you know if they if they're good enough to do that if they're that wonderful and compassionate person lovely. But you ultimately have to be compassionate to yourself you've got to take care of you so now let's consider some ways that you might take care of you, there are some simple things you know and i've already mentioned what my favorite take a nap.

But you know it doesn't have to be you know get in bed and go to sleep yeah it can be just rest for a minute, maybe it's just sit down for a minute. You know it's it's blocked on the couch it's get out of the lab and get into the into the you know the lounge. Maybe it's sit outside on a park bench other things you could do is take a walk you know you you maybe your body needs to be moved maybe you've been stuck in one position too long.

So you know relieve your body that way and for some folks just taking a walk it's enough for other people. Man, they need to go to the gym they need to hit the heavy bag, they need to get on the treadmill you know they need to get on the stairmaster. You know yourself, you know your own body do the thing that will feel like you've taken care of yourself now if you feel great.

After getting out, you know, on a spin bike and and putting it on for 45 minutes and being drenched in sweat if that's something that gives gives you a feeling of feeling great afterwards by all means do that. If you're somebody that just needs to take you know, a leisurely walk in the park and notice the birds and the trees, and that makes you feel good, well, by all means do that.

Not I mentioned that meme earlier about meditating and I realized that the word meditate set some people off, oh no, I want to give those of you that have a. an aversion to the notion of meditation like wow that sounds all spiritual and air quotes and i'm i'm a realist i'm you know I I exist in the real world alright fair enough.

Let me give you a different word, and I think it's a word, you can probably get behind take time to contemplate contemplation is is peer to meditation and don't let your spiritual friends tell you it isn't. If you can just take some time to think. it's again, it can be very valuable and not it means you have to stop doing some other stuff you got to give yourself a chance. To to be committed to to just contemplating and you know that kind of inflation might be focused on something specific.

You know, maybe you want to contemplate how you want to solve a particular problem, maybe you want to contemplate on a particular area of a new area that's of interest to you that that you don't feel you're up to data. Great do that now contemplation contemplation is. has had a great place in scientific history, you know you i'm sure you can come up with many stories, all the way back to like the theorists have moments of contemplation where people had insights so.

So, again something to track now another thing you need to think about to take care of yourself is make sure you have proper meals, if you get so busy that you don't take time to stop and eat. And I mean actually have a decent meal, I mean take time to run to the vending machine, you know and get some potato chips or candy bar. And I don't mean well i've got as 10 minutes, so I got a wolf down a big MAC and Fries you know I mean an actual decent you know, nutritious meal.

Something that you will enjoy and take time with it and and meals, or something that in, especially in modern American culture, and I think just may be. True in some places, unfortunately, still in Europe right say also in Europe that people don't don't take time to enjoy their meal and socialize during their meal. Now granted, there are some places in Europe that are our famed for long meals, you know the Mediterranean area comes to mind especially.

where people are taking an hour and a half or two hours to have a meal and it's have they have it with conversation, and they have it with wine and. And in the notion of the slow food movement that comes to mind it's a good idea, but you know, even if you don't go that that route, he maybe you don't have the opportunity to socialize during the meal it say it's lunchtime at work.

You know, sit down with your meal don't eat it at your desk at your bench get out of there get into the kitchen or go outside if that's a possibility, or you know. Go someplace where you can dedicate yourself to being at the meal and to give yourself permission to be okay i'm doing this now. i'm no longer thinking about what I was doing earlier i'm no longer doing what I was doing earlier i'm here to do this thing, which is to have a meal.

Which is good for my body gives my chanting myself a chance to have a mental rest. And, and hopefully they have something that you enjoy and is is good for your body and nutritious and you know that you've taken a positive direction. Now I realized that you know there's some food that is not good for you, that it's very enjoyable i'm looking at you chocolate truffles that are sitting right in front of me.

But you know and it's fine to have some of that in your life that you know don't don't make that the Center of everything don't make that everything you eat going again it'll just add to your burnout. Another thing to take take the nap thing to an extension is to sleep properly, and I say properly, I mean. go to bed at a reasonable hour, so you can get up at a reasonable hour so that you're not rushed in the morning, when you get up.

And because you've slept enough, and you haven't overslept because your body is just screaming for more sleep or or you feel like I just I wasn't even bed I don't know why i'm getting up you know issue asleep as such a problem for people, these days, and it's so simple. You know you used to be you used to be a champion and sleep you every kid you know yeah they they. can give us some lessons and not asleep, especially little kids little kids and go to sleep on a moment's notice it's beautiful.

But sleep is such a important part of what we're doing, and if you've been going along burning the candle at both ends and you're getting three or four hours of sleep at night. you're not going to last that now I realized, there are some folks out there, that really can have less sleep than others so i'm not i'm not trying to tell anybody. What their sleep threshold, it should be, you have to know yourself but be honest with yourself and don't get stuck on being prideful about it, like.

You know if you're if you're proud of the fact that you can keep going on for our sleep. that's kind of a sign that something's up it shouldn't be a matter of pride, it should be a matter of observation like well this body does time in four hours. or six hours sleep or nine hours sleep, whatever it is, but notice, where it is and do that yeah and oversleep can be a problem, too, because you can.

You can get to the point where you don't get anything done because your own you never get out of bed, and again that is often a sign of somebody, that is, that is. Is is having some kind of some kind of burnout so. You know don't be afraid take notice of your sleep patterns and and act appropriately and again if you're finding you can't sleep.

Not maybe you do need to see a doctor about that are you finding you can't you can't be awake you know again you definitely need to see somebody about that you know so check into that. Another thing you can do, and this is a simple thing to do, and you can do it, you can do it at your bench i'm going to allow you to do this, the same time you're working.

Is drink water, make sure you drink enough water, and I mean water I don't mean caffeinated beverage I don't mean sugary beverage I don't mean aspartame beverage I mean water.

Do these things to take care of yourself, and you know focus on the ones that are physical or emotional or mental as your needs are. And and don't excuse yourself, because sometimes it's easy to do certain things like I don't really physically burned out but I like to sleep so i'm going to listen to that well. But the real burnouts happening for you mentally well then getting things get engaged in that area, you know and look at it differently.

So some other things to engage on so let's talk about that this is a big one, learn to say no. Especially if you're finding that you're you're emotionally burned out or or mentally burned up a lot of times it comes down to its its emotions, you could handle or a mental load you could handle if there wasn't so much of it it's it it's.

You got to recognize there there's no meaning to saying no it's just saying that that's not possible right now it's not saying I don't care about you it's not saying I don't respect you. it's it's not saying I, you know that. it's it's not saying that I don't have fellow feeling.

All it's saying is that I don't have the capacity, right now, and that capacity doesn't doesn't represent your goodness or your worth it's just a reality what's going on now perhaps in a situation where you have to say no, it requires an explanation. And I say, perhaps because it doesn't always you don't have to give everybody a reason. If every time you talk about you know somebody says hey can you do X and your common way to approach it is is sick I can't be cars.

And you always have to have that because, or you can say no well i'm going to ask you to take because out of your vocabulary for a day and see what you do. You got to learn to deal, without it, you don't have to give explanations for everything. Now now i'll grant you that sometimes you know your boss requires an explanation, perhaps you got to do that or.

or your lab meet requires an explanation or or a client or customer requires an explanation, well, I mean yeah you got to respect that, but there are many cases where. there's, no, no reason anybody has to be told why they don't need to know what else you're doing and, in fact, in some cases it's none of their business, what else you're doing.

So you know you gotta you gotta remove yourself from that and you're going to find when you when you get rid of that requirement for because know becomes a lot easier. Maybe you just have this inkling that I can't do this and you can't quite put an explanation to it or put it into words.

Well, if you're in a situation where you have to give up, because in your own mind you're not going to say no, no situations, even though you've got a hunch you've got an intuition, that you should say no. Well hunches and intuitions are very, very important in the scientific world and you got to listen to them and if you got one it's telling you to say no right now.

You got to say it's one of the ways that you're gonna you're going to avoid burnout and this one of the ways you're going to protect yourself you're already feeling that. Another thing you can do is to unplug when I say unplug I mean you know if if you're someone that works all day. And then you go home and you read scientific journals and unwind you watch nobody on TV, you know, at some point you gotta you gotta step out of it all.

You know you got to do something that's just pleasurable and you know if that means watching watching some sports or that means listening to a symphony or that means. You know, going to a concert or or you know, having a beer or or any anything that is outside of your normal, this is what a scientist does as a scientist give yourself a chance to be more than just a scientist, you are more than just a scientist is wonderful, as it is to be that.

There are other things to be to and do those things you know it's it's good for you to play candyland with the kids it's good for you to take a moment with your. Significant other to watch the sunset and it's good for you to open up a novel that you're reading for guilty pleasure. You know, do those things they they ultimately you're going to feed back they even giving you a more sound mental state.

And you're going to find you're going to be able to think better after that you're going to find you're going to. That you're going to be less likely to run off emotionally, you know there's nothing wrong with being emotional we're humans. it's what's, the problem is when you should when emotions take over and and when they run a muck you know it's if you have a where you can't you just can't even control.

how you feel controls, not the right word I want to see you sometimes we don't control how we feel there's nothing wrong with that, but if you find that your emotions are constantly running away with you, then, you know that can really get in the way. So unplugging can help you get more of a grip on it. Another thing to think about. When it comes to burnout you may realize that you know I wouldn't feel burned out if this person and this person and this person weren't in my life.

And that might be people you work with they may be, you know what I wouldn't feel burned out if it wasn't for this p-i who is making my life miserable, for I wouldn't feel burned out if it wasn't for this person at the next bench who's constantly causing problems in our lab. Or it might be that you know if I wasn't constantly getting calls from you know my my childhood best friend about how much of a wreck his life is and.

And how much he needs my help and you need it needs me to help him move again and he needs me to come, have a beer with him and he needs me to listen to his problem. You know, you may you start to realize that there are some people that are costing and they might be in your professional life, they might be in your personal life. and your professional life, you can look at that and go well, is there a way for me to get away from it, and you know it might mean making some changes in.

In your work life, now sometimes they're radical changes, maybe you need to quit your job and find a different one or maybe it's just I need to get reassigned you know, to get away from this person. And you know take those steps and you may find that that's enough that is enough to get you out of the burnout that you're feeling. Now, another thing when it comes to associates, you have some associates around you there's nothing wrong with them at all.

But the problem is that you're constantly comparing yourself to them and they're so great and they're so wonderful and i'm such a loser, and I can't keep up and that is creating constant strain for you. Now, you may be fortunate enough to work with some really amazing people and perhaps you're not their peer. there's no shame in that you don't have to be the greatest to ever was at everything.

And if you happen to have the good fortune of being in the company some of those people, by all means be around them learn from them gain from their from their mentorship and their experience. But don't compare yourself to them, not in such a way that you're going to drag yourself down and where you're trying to keep up with something you just can't keep up with.

I remember back in second grade school and there was one kid in class I don't know why use just views bigger than me quite a bit bigger than actually. But he can really run long distance and so in gym class, we were going to run a mile and I got it in my head, I know how i'm going to run a mile i'm just going to keep up with Greg that's going to be it i'll be able to run I run a great mile just keep it up with Greg. Well, that lasted about a 10th of a mile I couldn't keep up with Greg.

He was a good long distance runner already in sixth grade you know, and I was, I was you know six inches shorter than most of most of the boys my age. yeah I wasn't gonna keep up with anybody that was going to happen it didn't matter that I, you know I wasn't overweight or anything but I didn't have that long distance kind of thing I would I was in a bill for that, at that time.

So you know it's it's the same way with this when we look at the people around us don't make comparisons and and you know, some people really are better than us. At one at one thing or another it's nothing wrong with that that doesn't make them a better human being. doesn't mean they're more but that they're more worthy to be alive than you they're just they're just they're there and they're doing their thing, and they should do their thing.

But you should do your thing, and you may be better at other things, maybe some other things that aren't as as. Economically valued or maybe not as not as publicly praised, but you know, do the things that you're good at and and. And don't put yourself down for the fact that you're not good at certain things now that's, not to say that you shouldn't make an effort to better yourself and improve in areas where you're weak and that's fine but.

don't beat yourself up about the present state you're in to the point where you're burning out because it will help you're not going to get better at it, if you burn out so you got to get yourself get your head in the right space on that. Other thing you can do is you can get yourself some some outside interests were you doing things different than what you do in the lab now maybe what you do in the lab actually is pretty physical and you do a lot of hands on kind of stuff.

But maybe not maybe maybe your work is a lot more intellectual and what you do well, maybe then it would be good for you to have some kind of physical outside interests something where you're. Using your hands and whether that's putting in a garden or working on your car or or you know or something physical in that regard, you know building the shed in the back that's great. Use your hands and to again give yourself just a different kind of outlook.

Another thing you can do is use your mind not and I know you're all using your minds for your work, but but you're using them in a certain certain kind of way. Maybe you need to use your mind in a different way to give yourself a bit of a break, and maybe that's while you're not you know i'm gonna do i'm going to go back and i'm going to read reread all of William Shakespeare.

That a doubt, would be a great way to use my mind or i'm gonna i'm going to really get into this interesting area, that is, you know outside of my work area i'm very interested in plant pathology cuz cuz I like gardening. But i'm not a scientist. So you know it's a good thing for me to look at, but that doesn't that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good thing for you to look at me you're.

you're working on animals all day long maybe looking at plants to be a good thing for you something different to do with your mind and maybe it's a matter of doing puzzles reading reading mysteries and to figure out what's what you know.

Especially if you can go back to like classical ministries like you know Raymond Chandler you know the the Nawaz ton of stuff you know again just some suggestion just some ideas and, finally, you can use your heart, and it may be that you're you know you're not engaged in. Anything that really involves much compassion or giving as far as work goes well, maybe you do want to volunteer somewhere and do something like that.

Maybe you want to get more involved in art or music, you know something where you're where you know it's more than just imagination now now you're seeking beauty and you're looking for for something beyond just the technical or the or you know ways to check the boxes. Again anytime you add some stuff in, and I know it sounds like when you're burned out add in that sounds crazy well no it's the way to go.

If because it may be you're burning up because you're missing something not so much because you have too much on your plate but there's something missing. So in you're going to know when there's something missing you're gonna you're going to know when you feel that like man.

I I wish I know some a lot of folks i've known that they play instruments they've learned to play piano or guitar violin or whatever in their past, but you asked them and they tell you that they they're not a musician they don't play anything. When actually they do, maybe they need to re engage with it and you might know and it's possible some folks have.

Negative memories like I hated piano lessons yeah but you know what Well now, and you're not being forced to do it, you may find it's a lot different. But I found something that happened to me at one point I you know i've been so involved in technical or convince all involved in mathematics and computer science. That I haven't really been engaged in in English literature, so I went back and I read read Charles Dickens and all I remembered as I hated Charles Dickens when I was forced to read it.

When I read it, when I wanted to I just thought it was delightful and after that I thought, why would I reread Shakespeare good because maybe I got the wrong. wrong path on that too, and I sure did I had a great time with that and. You know so you're going to know when and what what the right thing is for you, so you know figure out what it is that you can do that's outside of.

Your scientific interest and any of that can help you then to deal with any burnout in your face, so all these ideas being said i'll throw it back to you, Nick is there anything you'd like to to add or any questions you'd like to pose.

You know if you're if you're a researcher in the lab by definition you're some level of high achiever you kind of push. yourself and that can go or you can take that too far, because you know you prize, the achievement over looking after yourself. Or you right, you know you burn yourself to get the achievement kind of thing and and actually and you touched on this can is that.

As well as that kind of over that pushing yourself too hard, can kind of in some environments can become kind of a badge of honor. i've seen that in science, where it's like you know I didn't have time to eat dinner, and I just went and got something from the vending machine and i've done that every night this week and and so on, and you know, and so I think that these kind of. environments like you know, scientific research being one of them are you're right for people burning out.

And from from that perspective and another thing you know other things that feed into that are you know the whole badges of honor about. We drink so much coffee to keep us going to have caffeine just keeps amping it up and you don't get enough sleep then you're creating cycles for yourself that are on healthy. And you know, the only they all feed into each other to just be create a spiral everett and heal the body burn out to me feels like a spiral I have experienced that myself.

It feels like a spiral where everything gets faster and faster and faster everything moves in smaller and smaller circles, if you like, you know, like the spiral, and so the further you get the spiral you get the harder it is to get out of that pattern, and it tends to intensify and. And everyone has a breaking point and. You know me I know mine I know where okay now if I continue this another two weeks i'm going to break, so I need to stop.

And, but that's only from having done it as best to stay away from it, if you can, but I think it's as the important thing to realize, is that you do have a breaking point you're not superhuman you can't keep going at this. You can't keep burning the candle at both ends, you know, as you know well that's the more time based thing, but you can't you can't keep abusing yourself like this and and get away with it forever.

And you know i've seen a lot of people burn out like that, and then this whole another thing that you know that adds on to that is you touched on the idea of. meditation you know, a while I don't do that i'm a fact based person that's fine, why not contemplate then you're thinking tick why don't take it one step back, why not just give your brain a rest for a while.

yeah right give your brain arrest give your body some exercise give your body some good nutrition give your body some sleep give yourself some space, you know those are things that take you back down the spiral, and they feel like because they feel like you're slowing down your. High achiever nature does doesn't want you to do that, but that is that slowing down thing or that reversing the you know the The spiral is what you need to do to be able to balance.

You know, pushing on pushing forward trying to achieve and not reaching the barnett point you've got to give yourself to unwind other. Things isn't it, but I think that spinal idea as a you know, the idea of thinking of it as a spiral is really helps me because it feels like I don't want to slow down, I have things to do it yeah but you need to go back to give yourself some space to go forward again, if you like. sure.

But maybe you're somebody you know, like like Nick has described and like i've described and we both burned up before and we got through it. And, and we found out how to how to deal with it and it's like I was saying, at the beginning of this. You know i've been through i've been through a really terrible personal experience and it didn't result in burnout because.

i've got all this other stuff in place, you know i'm I know how to keep from burning out these days and and it and it really worked in a in a really trying situation, so I can wholeheartedly recommend this to anyone.

Before you literally exhaust the body, so you have to give it a rest which you've done. You have to give it via properly, which have done, and again it comes back to actually. That what we're doing as the high achievers you know we will be the greatest scientists in the universe, by being tries the hardest what we're doing is we're abusing the brain and the way we would never abused the body.

Because the body would break down for earlier, the body would be done more quickly or more more visibly you would be exhausted and and it's paying attention to the to the brain and what that you know that that is a.

that's fine, but you know, we want to help you be better to we want you to help be more satisfied with with your career and in and with your accomplishment so. it's a great opportunity, and we don't want to see buddy burnout it's no fun. But if. If you have to experience it we want to help you get through it.

But the general rule of thumb is just going the opposite direction of what is bothering you slow down look after yourself take time out inject some enjoyment or not inject some enjoyment and I thought it sounds like something different right.

Going back to episodes 129 those foundational principles will potentially the little bit different to you know if you've if you've listened to a few episodes either way think consider going back to look at those episodes 129 and there will be some. Some benefit to you, I think, regardless of what stage you're at here beginner or you've been with us for a while.

And the only other thing to mention is to come and visit [email protected] forward slash the happy scientist club, like us, like the page rather and you'll get. you'll be kept in the loop about new episodes and other things that are going on, so again Ken, thank you for for a great episode. stay in in healthy shape and again next time.