Sleep When You're Dead Tired (LIVE with Arianna Huffington)

of the topics we tackle in this podcast. So that's the simple answer. Happiness requires sleep. The problem is that getting the right amount isn't always easy for me. There's always that one last email to send before bed, just to get it off my plate, But then another arrives, and another, and before I know it, hours have passed and the stresses of the day have just crept under the covers with me. In the final episode of our New Year mini season, I'm going to talk about sleep

with one of my favorite experts on the subject. She's not a scientist, but she's experienced firsthand what it's like to live on the edge of exhaustion. In her book The Sleep Revolution, She explores how we got ourselves into this sleepless mess and what we can do to get out of it. I was so excited to chat with her about these sleep solutions that I decided to host our chat in front of a live studio audience at the wings Soho Space in New York. Who is the

Sleep Girl. She is best selling author, calumnist, and founding CEO of the well being giant Thrive Global, Arianna Puffing Dood. So join me and Arianna in this finale episode of The Happiness Lab twenty twenty. So. I wanted to start at the beginning with your story, Arianna, because you learned about the power of sleep firsthand and with a pretty scary wakeup call. So I want to set the stage. So tell me what your life was like before that

big wake up call. My life before my wake up call, which happened in two thousand and seven in the spring of two thousand and seven, was filled with sleep deprivation. I was a divorced mother of two teenage daughters and had founded The Huffington Post two years earlier, and I had bought into the collective delusion that in order to be super mom and super founder, I just had to burn out, and that was just the price you pay

for success. But worse than that, if you had asked me that morning, how are your ian, I would have said fine. And that's one of the saddest things, because I had forgotten what it really is to be fine and what it is to be really recharged and fully engaged in your life. So I'd actually returned from doing him an early morning show on CNN and went to get a sweater because I was feeling cold and I felt like collapsed. I hit my head on my desk,

broke my check bone. When you suddenly collapse, they don't know what's wrong with you. So you go from echo cardiogram to test for brain tumors, etc. Etc. And you know, doctor's waiting rooms are a great place to reflect on your life. And at the end of it, you know, literally after all these tests, I have this amazing kind of philosophical doctor who said to me, I have all the results, and what you have is civilizations disease burnout. And he said, I'm sorry to tell you that there

is nothing the medical profession can do for you. You have to change the way you live, which was very profound because a lot of doctors still think there is a drug for every problem, or you can't sleep, or just a cambion. No, No, the problem is not that, The problem is that I don't prioritize it. So he actually took the time and had the wisdom to go deeper. Looking back, it was kind of a total gift. It

stopped me. It got me reflecting on my life, on what I was doing, and because I'm a bit of a research nerd, it also got me looking at the fact that all around the world, hundreds of millions of people were burned out, that this was not an individual problem, it was a collective problem. So talk about some of the broad changes you made, and then specifically about sleep. Well, the first change I made, being always the editor, was

to bring all this topic into the Huffington Post. So suddenly the Hvingdon Post, which was a political site, started covering sleep and we launched a dedicated sleep section in two thousand and seven. And I remember a conversation at the Huffington Post board with a lot of complaints from board members saying that they thought this was not serious, it was a trivial topic and why was the Havingdon

Post covering it? It turned out to be actually the best thing that would have happened to the Huvington Post, because by the time I left in twenty sixteen, we had over sixty percent of our traffic coming from non political issues. In my personal life, I really began to prioritize sleep. We have been treating sleep or something negotiable, something optional, or worse, something that really dedicates that ambitious

people didn't really have to give in too. You know, of course, we have all these sayings in our culture, right, I'll sleep when I'm dead. John bon Java used to live in my apartment building here in Saho, and I said to him one day, I would love you to redo this song, change the words to say I'll sleep when I'm tired. The other thing, of course, that science makes very clear is that you will be dead a

lot faster. I remember going to dinner with a guy recently who bragged that he had only gotten for our sleep the night before, and I remember thinking, but not saying, you know what, if you had gotten five, this dinner would have been a lot more interesting. But I think the problem with this, I mean, the scary thing about this culture is that people believe it's a badge of honor.

I mean, one of the problems with sleep is that we're not getting it, but another is that we believe it's okay, not in yet it And just to kind of get a sense of that, I just want to see the sleep crisis that we might be dealing within this room. So how many of you would say that you're not experiencing any form of sleep crisis, Like, in the last two months, you've never felt tired. Oh, it's

pretty good, awesome, all right? So how many of you would say that in the last two months you've occasionally felt tired? Right? And how many of you are feeling like you self report being tired a lot. That's say, you're in the right place. Yeah, we're preaching to a choir a little bit, but we definitely got more clapping on the kind of crisis type. So, I mean, talk to me about the level of this crisis, Like, how

bad is this right now? There is a scientific consensus that unless you have a genetic mutation, and about one and a half percent of the population does, the vast majority of us need seven to nine hours to become completely recharged. Where you are in the seven to nine hour spectrum is individual. I'm an eate our girl, and ninety five percent of the time I get it because I prioritize it. You may be a seven hour girl or boy, or a nine hour, but we're somewhere there

if you're going to be fully recharged. The consequences of not getting enough sleep are so huge and monumental, you know, starting with our health, a greater likelihood of diabetes, of heart disease, of high stress levels of Alzheimer's. I mean that is like the latest amazing data on the connection between cognitive decline and sleep deprivation. It doesn't make any rational sense not to prioritize sleep. What's amazing is it's

not just our physical health. In your book, you talk a lot about the mental health problems that come from not sleeping. Well, absolutely, and you know, there's such a clear connection between sleep deprivation and depression and anxiety, which is why I'm so excited about the movement to start

school later, which is absolutely essential. Kids go to school exhausted that don't pay attention, they're classified as add they're put on medication, and it's that vicious cycle which is completely unnecessary if kids show up at school completely recharged. So where do you think this mistaken notion comes from, Like, how did we get so off track with this? I trace it back to the Industrial Revolution because it was

during the Industrial Revolution when we started revering machines. And of course the goal with the machine is to minimize downtime. I met someone here from Salesforce and proudly proclaims that I have ninety nine point nine nine nine percent up time. That is fantastic for software, but for the human operating system,

downtime is not a bug, it's a feature. And you know, if you go back to mythst of creation, you know, every myth of creation has God or Goddess creating the universe in six days and then taking the seventh day off. You know, clearly God is omniscient, omnipotant, omnipresent. She didn't need to talk the day off. She was sending us

a message we are now just beginning to listen. It's the time off from our worldly pursuits, because there's something about surrendering to sleep in a sense every night, recognizing the mystery of life that we don't have answers to. Of course, we have huge traditions of prophetic dreams, but also dreams that simply work out through whatever it is that's unresolved from the day. So it's kind of a magical time, and when we acknowledge it that way, it's

easy to surrender to it. But kind of thinking of ourselves like machines, we end up missing that magical time or not prioritizing it. I think the other key is just to you know, if you really believe the statistic. I mean, the one that's most compelling for my college students is this idea that you know, if you've been up for seventeen hours, you basically have a blood alcohol level that you shouldn't be driving, and like you wouldn't go to work like that, you wouldn't take care of

your kids like that. Well, of course, you remember the tragic incident of a brilliant student after graduation whose boyfriend fell asleep behind the wheel and she died. There are many tragedies like that. I mean, that became a big story because she was brilliant. She had written a book

which was published posthumously. But there are a lot of traffic incidents based on slip deprivation, a lot of injuries because of slip deprivation, and then also an enormous lack of compassion and empathy in the way we interact with people based on slip deprivation. Basically, just think of it that way. Look at yourself and you will recognize what I'm saying. When I'm sleep deprived, I'm the worst version of myself. I'm less empathetic, I'm less compassionate, I'm less creative,

I'm more reactive. In fact, I was giving a speech at a Facebook conference and I told the engineers that that I want them to create a feature that would allow me to unfriend myself during those days because I don't really want to be around me, but I have no choice. And this is so real. It affects absolutely every aspect of how we show up. And I find the more you kind of look at life and reflect on life, the more important joy becomes. So I'm not a stage where I don't measure my life by how

effective I am. I mean, I know I can be effective. It's like that's kind of table stakes, and I think most people know they can be effective. The question is can I also be joyful? Can I find joy in what I'm doing? And that's part of what makes us really love our work more and that's another thing that they can flip side of all the downsides of sleep are all the good sides of sleep that we forget that it increases joy. You also talk in the book about how getting enough sleep can be kind of like

a stress shield. It's sort of like a sort of resilience performance enhancing drug. Absolutely, we know that the same I think and happen to ten people, and they all react differently. Someone may be completely overwhelmed and Brock and Bite and others can just find creative ways to deal with it, and if you're exhausted, it's less likely you'll be able to do that. So it seems like sleep

really is a medical miracle. I hope everybody in the audience here and everybody who's listening at home is convinced of that. But the fact that sleep is a medical miracle kind of raises this question about how can we get more of it? And that is a question I'm going to pose to Ariana. Once we return from a quick break, the Happiness Lab will be right back. All right, welcome back. So we've just heard the sleep deprivation basically

undermines pretty much everything we need to be happy. And if you just want one more statistic to drive this home. For every hour of sleep you lose. Your risk of psychological distress goes up fourteen percent for every single hour. So sleep is basically fantastic. We need to create more of it. But then that raises this cultural tension, which is even if I reflect for myself, I know the science about this really well. I mean, I've read your book, and you know, I teach you a course on this stuff.

But when I have to, you know, shut Netflix off and go to bed, or put my phone away, or really shut off for the night and put it far away so I'm not tempted to check my email, I honestly still struggle with that. Like, there just is this tension between the benefits of sleep and this lifestyle where

we're always connected. And that was one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you, because you know, you're a super successful businesswoman, but you've managed to solve this tension, And so how have you been able to fought this? I guess how did you come up with the commitment to really fight this? The way to commit to it is to break it down into microsteps and pick your microsteps, stay with it and get an accountability body. If you want, you can keep each other honest about

shutting off Netflix. Incidentally, Read Hastings, the CEO of Netflix, said that the main competitor of Netflix is sleep, so he knows exactly what's happening. And you know, the way of course we are hooked is the one episode ends and the other begins. So that's where a certain amount of ruthlessness comes in about priorities when you begin to see how much more you love your life when you're not sleep deprived. And I speak as someone who spent a large part of my life walking around like a zombie.

I actually actively remember being in a board, mean eating and singing in the back of the room, a long table and thinking if I go and crawl under the table, will anybody notice? You know, that's how exhaust I was. And another way I knew and you would know if you're exhausted is the minute I would be in a darkened auditorium, a movie and an opera house whatever, I would be asleep, like literally it would take like a second,

and that's not normal. So, Arianna, what are some of the chips that you've used to improve your sleep over time? One of the tools that I would love to sort of share with everyone here is a transition to sleep. Anybody here who is a parent knows that you have a transition to sleep with your baby. You know you sing it a lalla by give it a bath. My transition to sleep is thirty minutes, but you know, start with five. My transition is I always have a hot bath.

I love baths. If you don't like baths, have a hot shower. The point is not cleanliness, it's a ritual. It's almost like washing the day away, kind of imagining the day being washed away with all the good and the bad. And now you are getting ready for sleep, the time to completely surrender and recharge. And then I actually love to rekindle the romance with sleep. So I love beautiful lingerie. If you don't like beautiful lingerie, you

can wear a T shirt or nothing. But if you wear a T shirt, do not wear the same T shirt that you're going to wear to the gym the next day, because your body gets confusing messages are we going to the gym or are we going to sleep? So I have dedicated T shirts for sleep. Whatever it is, dedicated sleep well. And then once I get into bed, absolutely zero screens. I only read real books, and I

read books that have nothing to do with work. I read novels, I read spiritual books, I read poetry, anything that helps me disconnect for my day, and I end my day with three things I'm grateful for. One of my favorite tips that you give in your book, though, and maybe the hardest tip I think for busy people, is this idea that if you're experiencing sleep deprivation, that might not be the only problem, Like your sleep deprivation might be assigned that there are other issues that you're

not addressing. Absolutely. I mean it's like taking an inventory of your day and seeing what can you cut, and often it's things that are joyful and enjoyable, like watching a show you like or having a dinner with friends. It's like something has to give, and there are times when you know what it will be nice to go to dinner with friends, but I'm just going to have

a hot bath and catch up on my sleep. And the more responsibilities you have a job, starting a business, children, the more imperative it is to be pretty relentless about what you are going to say no to. You cannot say yes to sleep without saying no to other things, and again, start small. You want to start with getting fifteen minutes more, you know, don't say I'm going to go to eight hours or seven hours. Just start very small.

So you build that muscle, you begin to have more energy, you begin to see the impact it has, and that the impact it has, it becomes like a magnet. So I work a lot with college students and many of them, many of them will ask me, why can't I just not sleep now so I can sleep later once I'm successful? Like you, you know, what would you say to the college student who wants to do the grind right now

and things they might prioritize sleep later. Well, thank you so much for asking that question, because it is based on a misconception about what leads to the greatest performance. So, if you are an entrepreneur, you are building a business, you want to show up the best version of yourself. Your business depends on the quality of your decisions. It doesn't depend on how many hours you are at your desk.

And more than three quarters of startups fail. And somebody should do a study on the correlation between sleep deprived, exhausted entrepreneurs and the decisions they make that lead to the collapse of the companies. So there is no trade off between sleep and prioritizing our well being and our performance. On the contrary, the two things are completely interconnected. So we need to take sleep and well being out of the realm of nice to have later in life and

recognize its integral to succeeding right now. When Jeff Bezos wrote on Thrive that he sleeps for eight hours because it improves his decision making, it went crazy viral. I mean, there are many more very successful people who get enough sleep, and I know that because they confess to me. But I remember when at a dinner Jeff Bezos said that to me, and I said to him, you must write about it. I think it will help so many people. He said, I'm a private man, I don't write about it.

But I harassed him until he wrote about it, and then he actually loved it because it has such an impact. And that is what it's so interesting too, encouraging people to come out as good sleepers. I mean, this is the exciting thing. And kind of where I want to end is this question of are you optimistic? I mean, in your book you presented I think what shows that

there's a real crisis here. But I think since your book, you have Jeff Bezos coming out as an eight hour a day sleeper, and so many people in this room who are excited to talk about sleep. Are you optimistic that things are changing even though the culture isn't perfect. I am extremely optimistic. I am optimistic for many reasons. I'm optimistic, first of all, because for many years who have really neglected this conversation, your cause was pretty instrumental

in bringing that conversation back to the mainstream. And I feel like in any transition, you know, from the Dark Ages to the Renaissance, you are going to have multiple behaviors coexisting. So I'm sure you can have tons of examples from executives who are still bragging about how little sleep they got because they didn't get the memo. But you know, it's changing, and I think now there is

a different listening. Like if you told your boss something about sleep, it wouldn't be seen as something eliant because the Wallstreet Journal very regularly cover sleep, and so does the Harvard Business Review, and my kids didn't entire study about the role of sleep in leadership, And when I first read it, I honestly thought it was an onion headline, you know, because it was like my Kinsey is actually recommending our sleep for leaders. But that's a sign of

the times. But we can also learn from the animal kingdom. I know you've studied animals also as well as human beings, and my favorite sleep animal is the cheetah. The cheetah sleeps for eighteen hours and then she can accelerate going from zero to sixty miles in one minute. I don't recommend sleeping for eighteen hours, but it's almost like a metaphor that the fastest animal in existence sleeps for eighteen hours.

So you could say, like the most amazing, productive and temperaneure or business leader is somebody who shows up fully recharged. And that's why I'm optimistic, fantastic. Well, I think of all the people who are starting this important conversation, I have a lot of gratitude for you for doing it so well and so eloquently, and so I want to end with giving a huge thank you to Arianna for all the amazing work she's doing and for sharing that work with this audience and all the folks who are

listening on the podcast. Let's give a big round of applause to Arianna. So, Happiness Lab listeners, I hope we've convinced you to choose sleep, Cancel something you were planning to do tonight, and devote that time to not being awake. It'll pay back dividends. You'll be fresher to tackle the tasks in your waking life tomorrow, and you'll be happier. That's all for this New Year mini season. I hope

it's been a helpful start to your new decade. It would be great if you could rate and review the show and spread the word to anyone you know who might like a few happiness tips. I'll be back with a new season of The Happiness Lab at the end of April. We have some great stories and fantastic guests, as well as the latest science on how to be happier. Until then, more can I say except sleep. The Happiness

Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show was mastered by Evan Beola and our original music was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to Ben Davis, Neil La Belle, Julia Barton, Carli Nigliori, Heather Faane, Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanig, and Jacob Weisberg. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries.