Did you like the Condoleezza Rice quote? Never be the former anything?
Yes. Oh my gosh, it's so good.
I firmly believe you should never be the former anything. You know what I mean? Whether you are a musician and an astronaut, a drug addict, it's like that that's not you anymore. That's your former self. That's not who you are today. But the funny part about identity is that we just want we don't want to let that side of ourselves go. Even though we're not the same person. Our future self is in totally different direction. We just we just cling to our former identity.
Many people want to navigate life with peace and joy, but struggle to connect to their intuition they find themselves overwhelmed, burnt out and frustrated. My name is Francesca Phillips, and I'm obsessed with spirituality and psychology, and how the two can intersect to help you live a successful and intuitive life. I believe each of us can accomplish amazing things through balanced and healthy habits instead of burnout. Consider this your go to resource for spiritual wellness and mindful productivity meets practical wisdom. If you're craving positivity, and want to know Know how to find the answers within instead of searching endlessly without when you're in the right place, get ready to feel supported and inspired. This is the good space podcast. Today I'm talking with Dr. Benjamin hardy about why personality tests can do more harm than good. Obviously, we're going to talk about more than that. But the good space audience were very much into alternative not alternative but looking into different ways of connecting with yourself. And I know personality tests are a huge thing. So we're gonna dive into that today. And Dr. Hardy is an organizational psychologist and best selling author of willpower doesn't work. His blogs have been read by over 100 million people and are featured on Forbes fortune, CNBC, cheddar, big thing and many others. He's a regular contributor to ink and psychology today. From 2015 to 2018. He was the number one writer in the world on medium.com. He and his wife Lauren adopted three children through the foster system in February 2018. And one month later She became pregnant with twit with twins who are born in December of 2018. So thank you for being with me and taking the time to chat today. We talked before this as well that I joined medium as a writer A few years after you did, and because of your morning routine article, that's what changed everything in my life. And since then I followed your journey from getting your PhD, going through adoption struggles to graduating and becoming a successful author. So how did you handle all of that?
Ah, gosh, I mean, a lot. My wife deserves so much credit. You know, she's amazing. We, we were foster parents for three years. And that was basically we became foster parents during the first year of my Ph. D program. And that was literally the exact same time I started writing online. So this is early 2015. And a lot of it had to do with honestly the morning routine, like I would wake up I was a full time student. And so I would have class like eight in the morning to like three or four and then I'd go home and we'd have three brand new foster kids and we had no clothes Had a parent in the house was crazy. And they had their own issues and, and so for me a lot of you know, the becoming a professional writer and stuff while in school was doing what I could before 8am, waking up early, going to the gym and then writing for a few hours. And obviously I detail a lot of how that happened. You know, I'm a big believer in journaling, prayer meditation, and just getting yourself in the right frame of mind being very clear. I was very clear, for example on like that I wanted to become a professional writer, and I figured out how to go about doing that. And so, yeah, just a lot of miracles. A lot of you know, like intentional, this is what I'm going to do really striving for a lot of support from my wife and just kind of handling it you know, like and willpower doesn't work. I talk a lot about the quote from welder grant where he says the ability of the average person could be doubled if the situation demanded it. And our situation demanded it, we put ourselves in a situation that forced us to figure things out. And that's how you become more adaptable and more flexible as a person and I think people could do a lot more They would put themselves, you know, proactively put themselves in a situation where then they're required to figure things out that they wouldn't have to, you know, we have two twins, as you mentioned, they're 18 months old now and like, they're becoming amazing swimmers because we live here in Florida. We like, but like two months ago, like they were horrible swimmers and like, we put them in the pool, and they'd cry and stuff. They got lessons, but now they're amazing. And I think as adults, we stopped putting ourselves through such rigorous learning.
Oh, I love that. And I can't wait to talk to you about that singular focus and having that intentionality. But before we start diving into everything, I always like to ask everyone who comes on the show, what's your spiritual practice? I know you'd kind of touched on it, but what would you say is your spiritual practice?
Yeah, I mean, so member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, so like, there's so much that goes into that prayer is obviously a big one, fasting, meditation. journaling, for me is huge. Just being with my family, honestly, is a spiritual practice. Say I made a lot of it's just my relationship with God. A lot of that is Just my private time with him, you know, prayer journaling. That's a lot of it, man, just learning and honestly just getting better and better at clarifying my goals, and clarifying what I want to do with my life and in and studying. I mean, I studied lots of good books, science, religion, just just learning, connecting. I mean, there's a lot of spiritual practices I'm throwing out there, but I just I'm actively trying to connect with God actively learning, actively creating.
Yeah, I love that. And how do you get that clarity? Is it just because you're doing those things? You feel an inspiration or confirmation? Or are you asking questions and then receiving a response? What does that look like?
I mean, I give myself space every day. You know, get yourself into the right environment. Pray meditate journal. For me, a lot of it has to do if listening to the right information, but then being in a situation where I'm just actively going back and forth. I got my journal open, I'll just write about what I'm trying to accomplish, talk to God, and then just write in, you know, usually just, it just comes over time, you know, but I'm actively doing it actively writing about it. And I'm, I'm a big believer, like, my own spiritual belief is that like, I can make my own decisions, and then I can figure out if I should adjust those decisions and my relationship with God is that like, I can make my own decisions, but that maybe sometimes my decisions are not the best ones that they could be. And so those should be adjusted. So I'm often making decisions and then going back and forth on in my head with God, it's like, if there's better approaches are better things that I couldn't should be doing. And I'm fine adjusting those, you know, I'm a big believer that my future self as an example is going to be making better decisions than my current self, and and that the person I am right now is not the be all end all and that hopefully in the future, I can make better decisions and in pursuing better aims. And so I'm just constantly striving to advance and learn.
I love that. So let's talk about personality tests. Then because Obviously you have the mindset that you can be whatever you want, you can do whatever you want, and you can change and adjust as you go. And so your book personality isn't permanent comes out today, June 16 2020. And with it, you're hoping to debunk the pervasive myths of personality that have captivated pop culture. Everyone's talking about on people put their enneagram and Myers Briggs types in their Instagram BIOS, businesses are using it to improve company culture, understand employees, and even one of my psych professors in college had us complete Myers brigg. And in your book, you said these tests are not only psychologically destructive, but are no more scientific than horoscopes. I'm sure you got some strong opinions in your inbox when you came out with this book and these statements to tell us why our personality tests on scientific and harmful.
There's a lot of reasons I will say I've recently read I mean, written a couple articles on Psychology Today about this subject and you would not be The emails I get from people. There's a lot of people who are on both sides of the coin where they're like, I'm so glad someone's finally saying this other people are like, how dare you? I even got an email from someone who was like my therapist has been giving me Myers Briggs and they've been basing our therapy on on Myers Briggs. She's like, does my therapist not know what she's doing? Oh, my God, it's been interesting finishing. I'll kind of explain just a little bit. I was surprised myself, you know, when I got into my Ph. D program, and I'm an organizational psychology, and a lot of what we do is test development measurement. And so I was surprised to hear all of my professors over and over, say the exact same thing that type based personality tests like Myers Briggs are just pseudoscience. They're just, they're not valid measures. They're not actually measuring personality. Personality doesn't work in types. It's very different. You know, personality is a lot more contextual. You're not going to be the exact same person in every situation. Context really matters. That's a big concept in psychology. But also like the major theories That's like most validated in psychology is called the Big Five. And like the big five breaks personality into five factors like extraversion, conscientiousness, and like that, and if you took the Big Five personality tests, you would never actually be given a category, you'd actually be given a percentile rank, and how you would measure against the rest of the population. So like on extraversion as an as an example. And it's funny, I've recently taken the big five and I have a pretty average personality in that regard. Like I'm like on the maybe 55th percentile for extraversion like, pretty normal. I'm not like way. And that's actually where most people are at, like, the problem with type based test is that they'll give you a score or a category and you'll assume that you have a more extreme personality than you really have. Because they give you a type, and then that type becomes a label. And it becomes a big aspect of your identity. And so like identity and personality are actually two different things. And identity is enormously more important. Your identity is actually how you describe yourself. It's how you define and describe yourself, usually through stories and then your identity. Your behavior and your behavior over time becomes your personality. And most people are not very, let's just say intentional about their identity and about what that actually means for what happens in their life. But your identity is enormously key to what you can create in your life. And most people, they're very definitive about their present identity. Actually, Daniel Gilbert, who gave a TED talk about this, it's called the psychology of your future self. He talks about how human beings are works in progress that mistakenly think they're finished. But basically, the main idea is it's just in Carol Dweck said the same thing. She wrote the book mindset all about fixed mindset, first growth mindset. But if you're really definitive and about who you are today, then you probably aren't going to be very imaginative about who you could be in the future. You also remind lists to the fact that you actually are a different person than you were in the past. And so, my major concern with these tests is is what they do to people's identity. They lead people to being very identified with various labels, which stopped them from not only seeing that the label is not always true, but then it leads them to confirming the label Seeking to justify and defend the label and it stops you from imagining a future self that is different from who you are today, you just assume that the person you are today is the person you'll always be, which is patently false. But it also doesn't have to be true. I mean, you can become quite different if you start imagining and then proactively choosing who you want to be.
Yeah, and I know in your book, he talked about someone saying they're an introvert as an example. So can you explain how like even labeling yourself as that can influence or affect how you function in the world basically?
Well, yeah, I mean, you're so there's a really good quote from Stephen Covey. And I think other people have said similar things, but basically, we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are. So I mean, if you've called yourself an introvert, you're probably you're probably gonna be very inflexible to situations that would require being in a social situation because you would be acting against your identity. You know, and so like, acting against your identity is not necessarily a positive experience. You become very unwilling to do anything that you don't see fits who you who you've defined yourself to be. So if you've called yourself an introvert, which no one actually is, even Carl Jung said anyone you know, if there's a pure introvert or a pure extrovert, that person would be in a lunatic asylum like there's, you may identify as one, it would then probably lead you to goals to confirm that, you know, so you probably wouldn't try things outside of that you wouldn't you wouldn't, you wouldn't put yourself in situations that would require uncertainty. And that would allow you to kind of flex that muscle where you could become better with people. Instead, you'd pursue goals and you you tell a story to justify who you are, and it wouldn't require you to change. And that's really what any label does. If you really said this is who I am, rather than this is who I want to be, then you can have a big ego and you don't have to actually change and you also don't ever have to be wrong. You're like, this is who I am. This is who you can expect me to be and I'm not going to be anyone different. If you tell people about your goals and about your aspirations, that takes a lot more courage because there's some uncertainty there you might not actually achieve them, you might fail. And therefore what would that say about you obviously, for My perspective, that's the right way to go is to tell people about who you want to be and that your future self is enormously more important than your current self, because your current self is so temporary. But it's a lot easier for people's ego just to say this is who I am and I shouldn't be expected to change.
Yeah, absolutely. Why is it important to understand the difference between your former current and future selves and how they're totally different people?
Well, I mean, they are first off. So Daniel Gilbert, he asks people the question, do you think you're the exact same person you were 10 years ago? Almost everyone says no, like, do you think you're the exact same person? You were 10 years ago?
No, not at all. Not even close.
Yeah, and I think probably all of your listeners would say the exact same thing. And actually, most people say that answer. And it's really good to view your former self as a different person. Like they would make different decisions than you'd make right now. Like the 11 year old version of me whose parents got divorced and like, I was handling crazy situations like I'm now not in that same situation and I know a lot of things I would not handle that situation the same way. But I should be empathetic towards my former self, even the person two or three years ago, even the person yesterday who may have not been the best parent, you know what I mean? Like, as you grow and you gain new experiences, you can see things differently. You can make different decisions, hopefully better decisions, and you should be empathetic toward your former self. But you can also see that you're not the exact same person used to be. But that same principle should apply to the future self as well, which not very many people do. Most people think that the who they are today is who they'll always be. But it's better from a decision making standpoint to actually view your future self as a different person. They're in a different situation. They've got different goals, different priorities, different preferences. And if you make if you make decisions based on your future self preferences, you'll often make better decisions in the present because they'll be more informed decisions. They won't just be based on what you want in the moment. And that's there's a lot of research from a guy named al Hirschfeld at UCLA on that just that if you view yourself future self as a different person, you can make better choices and I've done that lots of times. I mean, even today To be fully honest with you, I was tempted to email you and everyone that I was scheduled to do stuff with and just say, I'm not freaking in the mood. Because I was tired, I was tired. But, you know, because yesterday was just a crazy day for me, but I thought, you know, who is my future self and what in that allows you to make intentional informed decisions in the present, it also allows you to go through the process of what we call deliberate practice, which is ultimately how you develop skills, like you can't actually have motivation, or the development of real like, specific skills if you don't have a vision of where you want to go. So it's really important to clarify who you want to be. Most people don't spend the time imagining their future self. They just spend all their time imagining the past or remembering the past, but doesn't have to be that way.
Yeah, that's really powerful. And thank you for still coming on today because
I trust me, I'm really glad I'm here.
Yeah, no, I mean, I can't even imagine I know that. Launching a book, just just family. And just Everything and even just the social climate that's happening right now. It's just a lot. So
well, that's you for coming to.
Yeah, no. I think it's really, really cool that you are intentional about your future self because you're right. I even I've caught myself making decisions or thinking too much on the past and identity in the past. And reading your book reminded me Oh, my goodness, that doesn't matter. I need to be future thinking and connected to my future. And I think that's a huge piece. So, how does trauma add
really quickly if you care if I add one thing to at least do it just because you brought up so much good stuff on spirituality before? So during COVID-19 I actually read Victor Frankel's book Man's Search for Meaning two times. Have you read that one? Yes. Isn't it? Yeah, it's good. And what Frankl talked about is that without a sense of hope and purpose for your future, the present becomes meaningless. So like you actually need the future in order to actually function properly in the present. And so for the people in the Holocaust, like when they lost hope in the future, and it was just all about what was in front of them. They died like literally they died. It was just too unbearable because they were starving to death. But like with Carol Dweck work on mindset, the students with the fixed mindset are defined like so Carol Dweck would give all sorts of her students really hard challenges and they would all fail. But the people with the fixed mindset as soon as they would fail, they were completely defined by what happened in the moment. They couldn't they didn't see themselves being able to change. They said, the meaning that they gave to the failure was I'm dumb. This is who I am. My I can't be different in the future. This is where I'm at. Whereas people with a growth mindset because they had hope and perspective in their future. They were like I'm not there yet. And that's actually what Cal Dweck says she says you get to luxuriate in the power of yet you get you know yet is a beautiful word. But also like all of the research from Angela Duckworth on grit, you know an example she talks about grit literally relies on hope you wouldn't be great Uh, you know, like, you asked me, How did we do it? You know, how do we have five kids in one year, whatever. And like, yeah, we're pretty dang gritty. I think you're, you're probably pretty gritty too. But the only reason we can even have grit is because of hope. And so part of future self. Like, I think it can be very practical. I think, I think from my perspective, it's really powerful to have a future self beyond this life, that I can have a perspective of where I'm at in the future that informs my decisions here. And now, that's really awesome, very helpful, gives me a lot of hope gives me a lot of direction really helps me make better decisions, but also like, on a more practical level, like to achieving results or success or whatnot. Having a future self like two or three years out. That's like very specific that I've really spent time imagining and openly admitting in 10 people about and then literally investing money to move myself forward towards specific goals, whether it be mentorships to learn how to write or whether it be you know, like hiring a financial advisor so I can get good at Big money like you, you want to really get specific about who your future self is, because it's a decision you make. And it's up to all of us to really clarify the circumstances and the situation we want for ourselves.
Yes, I love that. And that takes a lot of faith to invest money, because I feel like when money comes into the picture, it's like, Whoa, do I really believe in myself? Do I really believe in that future? Because, yeah, it just, I can't imagine. I mean, that's incredible that
you're committed.
Yeah, no, seriously, that's, that's amazing. I mean, I used to get scared to buy a $300 course. So I'm like, What you mean? And so now I'm like, I laugh at it because I'm like, Oh, well, I will happily pay two grand for a course if I know that it's going to solve this problem or get to where I'm going faster. So I just think yeah, that's that's amazing that you were able to connect so much to that future. And this is really random, but I was watching the Michael Jordan docu Series. I love it. Man. I'm a
I'm a big fan. I'm a big basketball fan. Oh,
okay. Well, yeah, then of course you've seen it. But I was like on fire after I watched it. I'm like, Okay, let's go. Let's do this because it reminded me of what you said in your book, that when you have that focus on that singular goal, I forgot the example of the exact example you use. But for Michael Jordan, I was like, His goal was get that championship, everything he did eat, sleep, breathe, everything he did was funneled to that one goal. And then you see how much of a Amazing, amazing player he is. And he's just, no one will ever be better than him. I'm sorry. But his mindset and he had that grit. And he had that connection to the future. And he had all those things that you're talking about. And it's just like, it was crazy.
No, I love all that. Yeah, I call it the future self filter. But like, yeah, I mean, your future self should be the dictating factor for what you do here and now, whereas most people's dictating factor is pain or pleasure, like they'll make decisions based on like, what's, what's natural or what's easier, what's hard, and if it's hard or it doesn't feel great. rate, they're not going to do it. What's interesting when Michael Jordan and he said this a lot is in his trainers even said that, like Tim Grover his like personal development trainer, I mean his like fitness trainer, Michael actively turned weaknesses into strengths like he wasn't just like pursue what's easy he was so committed to a particular outcome that he would become what was required to get there, rather than choosing goals based on what your current strengths or your current personality is, he chose the goal he wanted, and he became the type of person who could create that result. And when you're committed to like a goal, your decision making in the moment doesn't is not based on what's immediately pleasurable. Sometimes you do things that are freaking hard. Sometimes you do things that are slightly unnatural or difficult, like I remember the first year being a foster parent of three kids. No, I didn't like going home like I it was not easy and it took a lot of convincing of myself I had to literally build the identity that these were my kids that this was who I am because it was a shift. I had to invest in them. And I had to start kidding, I will say I had a change of heart. And it became what I genuinely wanted. And you can change your desires. But But you know, to only do things that are seen as just this is my natural strength. So this is who I am, really limits what then becomes possible for you. It limits your flexibility, it limits your your chances of building confidence, that limits your ability to make choices.
Yeah, absolutely. And how can we change to become more open or more flexible? Because I know, you mentioned that two major obstacles that prevent people from predicting and creating their future personality is one we assume that our present personality is a finished product. So we already mentioned that and then we overemphasize the importance of the past, which creates the narrow view. So how, how can we start changing to become more open? Because I know we can say Oh, connect to the future, but I guess what does that mean, or how would you respond to that? Mm hmm.
Well, so one of the things assumptions in psychology is the most easy way to predict a person's future behaviors by looking at their past, which sucks, you know, but because it's it's bad if you want to make change, you know, because it's like, well, as an example, my younger brother, who we've recently checked into a treatment facility, because over the last decade and a half, he's relapsed into drugs and things like that, even though now he's in a treatment facility. And I just was literally with him two days ago, we ran for miles, it was amazing. He's on a great plane. I think it'd be really easy for me and all of us around us to say, Yeah, but we know who Trevor is, like, we know that eventually he's going to fall back and that we have enough history, right. And that's really the case with most people, like, I would say, as a majority, a really easy way to predict someone's future behavior simply by looking at the past. This book is not written for someone who wants that to be true for them. Like even if you've had a decent past, even if you're a great person, if you want To go to a different level, or if you want to become better in some form or fashion, your future actually has to look different from your past, you actually have to really get clear on who your future self is. And that that thing, your future self, not your former self needs to be the thing predicting your daily behavior. And it can, it does take courage, 100% It always takes courage, there's going to be difficulty. But I think the kind of key steps, although there are many, first, you actually have to clarify who that future self is, no one can make that decision, except for yourself, like, and that's a decision you have to make. And you can adjust that decision as you go, you know, like the future self I was chasing maybe two or three years ago is different, right? Different than the future stuff I'm chasing right now, you know, but once you've clarified based on where you're at right now, what you think would be the most valuable or the most useful life you can create, you know, like, as an example, I didn't choose writing these types of books because I thought it would be like the funnest thing to do. I chose this path because I thought it was gonna be the most Useful are the most valuable thing I could do with my life right now, based on what I understood. And maybe as I'm growing and getting more understanding, there's more valuable things I could do. Maybe even just spending more time with my family, you know, and so then I can clarify a future self that's a little better than than the one I've been chasing in the past. I think just making an informed decision about the person you want to be. And then beginning to start telling people you know, from like an Alcoholics Anonymous perspective, there's a really good quote that says, you're only as sick as your secrets. And basically what that that has a lot to do with, obviously, trauma, you know, you want to actually be open and honest about the things you've gone through. But it also has a lot to do with just being open and honest about your goals. And just saying, This is the person I want to be, you know, you know, a person's right overcoming addiction when they start actually saying, I've got I need, I need help. And also, this is where I want to go and that's where the ego goes away. You start being a student, rather than thinking you have all the answers. The cool part about recognizing that your future self is a different person is is that you don't have the answers. I have no clue how to achieve the goals that I'm currently pursuing. Don't current Benjamin hardy talking to you is not future Benjamin Hardy, who's achieved these goals in the future have more knowledge. And so just not acknowledging that you're in the student position, you're you're striving for these things and you want help, then I would say investing, you know, like literally investing money into your goals, whether it be in a coaching, the right environments, mentoring, whatever it is that's going to allow you to go through that deliberate practice process where you're actually actively learning and getting the help you need. And the support you need to become who you want to be, whether that's being a better mom, whether that's being you know, just actually building a support group, and network around your future self. So that would include redesigning your environment, and your social group to support the person you're trying to be. And obviously eliminating the triggers or the situations or the potential, even the people who would pull you back who you know, you've got to kind of limit some exposure to the people who refuse to allow you to go where you want to go.
Yeah, and I love that. And I really like how you brought up the ego. Because I know that is a very stagnant mechanism that we have, where it wants us to stay with what's comfortable with what we know, it wants to know that things we're doing are reliable, and, and all those things. And I know on the good space, we always talk about ego and how it locks you into attachments and identity to feel secure. So I just want to make sure that the distinction is made that even though you see your future self and you get a goal and you have a decision to go after that, you have to allow that flexibility because what's the line? Like how do you know when it's just that's my ego wanting me to achieve that goal? versus Oh, this is actually something I desire that's aligned that's connected. So let's do that.
Yeah, I love that question. By the way, the ego just wants to be right. I think that that's why it's really easy to say this is who I am. It's a lot harder to say this is what I want. And also, I might I might fail. You know, I think courage is the willingness to potentially fail. Uncertainty means that there is no absolutely guaranteed outcome. As far as like making sure that your goal is the right goal or like not just an ego based goal. That's that's that's like a tough, super tough question. Like, as I think about my own goals, yes, I have goals that potentially have some ego wrapped up in them, like admittedly, like with willpower doesn't work, I really want to hit the New York Times bestseller list didn't end up hitting the list, and it hurt a lot with and I think that I think as time passes, and as you become more mature, as a person, you make decisions and you set goals, really based on a lot of ways, not only your current values, but the values of your future self like you can project the type of person you want to be like with. And I think you don't necessarily have to explain the rationale of your goals to other people. But I actually think it's helpful like not only telling people your goal but telling people why it matters to you. I think that level of accountability and openness and transparency allows you and other people to realize why you're doing it. And I think that that level of courage like, admittedly, I want to sell millions of copies of this book. That is my goal. And the reason I want to do it is to set up my family, and myself financially, but also set myself up as an author so that I can continue to do what I'm doing because I love doing it. I think it's good, useful work. But I also want to put my family in a position where I don't have like, I'm going to step away from a lot of my entrepreneurial pursuits, and I actually am going to spend a lot more of my time on spiritual pursuits. And so like, I can justify that to you. I don't necessarily need one. One big part of all this is when you're explaining your goals to people, you actually don't need other people's validation. Like Yes, but but but I think, I think if you're really open and honest about why you're doing what you're doing, and also what you're doing, it forces you to, to ask yourself is this because have ego. And it really doesn't matter if people disagree with you or not. But I think if you're really open and honest, especially with yourself, and there's a really good quote from Dan Sullivan, he says all progress starts by telling the truth. I according to my own spiritual beliefs and stuff like that, I think it's fine to pursue great outcomes, especially if they align with what you say God's will, or if they align with just good things. Like, I'm fine with that. If I'm doing things for, for good reasons, unless for some reason, while during my journaling, practice, in my practice, I'm like, you know what, this is not the right goal. I need to just focus on this, like, that's between me and God. I just think, I guess, you know, in the cluster of all of this work, all these words, it was probably the most challenging question I've gotten in a long time, I would say be really open and transparent with those around you and even other people, and you don't need to justify it.
Yes, I love that. And it kind of ties in well with this quote, I absolutely loved how you describe desire, that just because you want something done doesn't mean you should want it. Our desires do not come from our innate personality instead, our desires are trained usually through experiences we've had society media and those around us. desires aren't innate they are trained and fueled, they are cleaned on to and identified with your desire shouldn't be mistaken as the real you. They are simply things you've attached meaning to which you can also detach or change the meaning of, and I think that perfectly just like sums up what you said, and again, a cleaner way. But it's, it's amazing when I ever had that I was like, Oh my gosh, everyone needs to hear this because everything we've talked about it just is so perfect. Like you choose your desire. It's not an innate fuel it
Yeah, you can and you can pull off from it. Right? If you feel like holy cow, this is the wrong thing to one,
right. Yeah, absolutely. And just not having the ego attached or the shame of thinking, Oh, I failed or whatever. And I think that's just amazing. And so actually read a quote by the way,
I don't want to cut you off. I read a book. was actually a scripture and I usually don't quote scriptures on podcast but I don't have it correct. It's I think it's in like Second Timothy but it said like that you should outgrow youthful lusts, like the word youthful lusts. Just words like you should stop, stop fulfilling youthful lusts, whatever that may be, like, it could just be like, you know, wanting to look good in front of your friends. I got that word, youthful lusts has just been in my head a lot lately, where it's like, where I analyze what I'm up to them, and I sometimes think, is this a youthful lust? Like, is this something that some people are going to keep wanting into their 40s 50s and 60s, because they're just not going to outgrow their ego? You know? And I think, like, just learning how to stop wanting things that ultimately are just youthful lusts.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny you say that because I thought of my time in the music industry. I was in it for six and a half years and worked with amazing people. I was in the thick of it. And that is continually been something that has been hard for me to let go as part of my identity. Part of my network as part of like, what I'm doing so reading that in your book, I'm like, oh, my goodness, this is the thing that I'm holding on to and I can't let go. And it's stopping me from the future self.
Did you like the Condoleezza Rice, quote? Never be the former anything?
Yes. Oh my gosh, it's so good. I firmly
believe you should never be the former anything. You know what I mean? Whether you're a musician and an astronaut, a drug addict, it's like that that's not you anymore. That's your former self. That's not who you are a day. But the funny part about identity is, is that we just want, we don't want to let that side of ourselves go, even though we're not the same person, our future self is in totally different direction. We just we just cling to our former identity.
Yeah. And I think that's ego because it's scary. It's scary not knowing what's next or what's ahead or how it's going to turn out. So I loved some of the tips that you mentioned on how to kind of get into that future self. And I've already been doing this for multiple days where you affirm that you're going to be successful that you're going To succeed in what you're trying to accomplish, that life is amazing. And you said to do that before you write in your journal, just to kind of write from the vantage of your future self, and I love that. So what else are things that are that you would recommend for people to try in order to connect to and act upon that future self?
Yeah, I think that when and where you, let's just say visualize or make decisions really matters, like I actively put myself in environments, whether it be to meditate, whether it be to pray, whether it be to get hyped up, you know, sometimes I'll go to I'm a part of mastermind groups and stuff like that. So I actively put myself in various environments that will impact my energy, my mindset so that I can make decisions from the right place. I think often people don't make big decisions in their lives because they don't put themselves in the right frame of mind. Like there's a concept called set and setting you need the right mindset. You also need the right setting sometimes to have what we would call peak experiences like on a date, basis, I try to go to bed earlier and wake up earlier. I mean, that's one of the things I talked about in the book go to bed earlier because at the end of the day, your willpower shot anyways, most people their last hour or two is mostly just unhealthy consumption, whether that be consuming media consuming junk food, you know, consuming wine, whatever, whatever it is, man, I, I'm not telling you what not to do. But I'm just saying usually at the end of the day, our our willpower is so fried, that we make short term decisions, we're not thinking about our future self, we're just very much just fueling dopamine, because we're fried. And so we're making short lived decisions. And so that obviously has an impact not only on your confidence as a person, because you're kind of just your identity, in many ways is impacted by your behavior. And so if you're doing all of those things, which all of us do, it then has ripple effects on on what you projected in the future. Like if you're, if you just feel bloated or if you're just not actually having high quality experiences or making short term decisions. That will ripple into your confidence in general. But also it will clearly ripple into the effects you could have the next morning during your morning routine, which could be very useful time. And so for me, one of the recommendations I would have is to go to bed with a purpose, you know, like literally it could literally just be, I'm going to wake up and go to the gym, and like set your gym clothes out so that when you wake up the next morning, you don't have to make that decision. So in psychology, we connect willpower with decisions, you know, and we call it decision fatigue. But the more decisions you have to make, the less optimal those decisions become. And so kind of like setting yourself up for success the night before, if you just laid out what you want to do the next morning, then you don't have to make those decisions when you're groggy and in bed like actually set yourself up the next night or the night before for success make it really easy for your future self to not have to make a decision because the decision was already made, under better circumstances, under circumstances where you weren't, you know in bed with your alarm going off. So going to bed a little earlier and avoiding the unhealthy consumption, waking up with a purpose. So you don't have to make the decision and deal with decision fatigue. And just actually then going forward and doing something towards your future self before the business of the day. I also think journaling, as a practice in general is a really amazing thing. Just journaling about your goals, that what that does, from my perspective, it just allows you first thing in the morning, you know, pray meditate in the right environment, think about your future self, it then allows you to live intentionally versus on autopilot. You know, rather than waking up reactive into your environment into what's urgent, it's like you've put yourself in a situation where you are clear on who you want to be. And now you're actively taking action towards your future self, which is solidifying to your identity that this is who you really are and you're actually making progress. I mean, it takes time. I wrote hundreds of articles between 2015 and 2018, really 2017 to 2017 when I got my book deal for what partisan work from 2015 to 2017. full time students, I'd wake up early, write in my journal, visualize my future self for six, eight months, articles all were terrible. But just over time, you know better prolific than perfect, you keep doing it, you keep showing up and you keep confirming who you want to be, you start your your, you start getting better. And you can change your circumstances and scenarios by just doing this, you know, and so I invite people to look at their daily life. And just like literally, maybe take stock on all the things you've done today. And ask yourself, how many of these behaviors are in support of my future self, for how many of them are things that are literally to the detriment of my genuine goals, and that they're just things I'm doing because of the current role or environment that I've created or the current identity that I've had? Often a lot of the things we're doing are just out of habit, from our former self. They're things that are not supporting who we really want to be and we're just not spending enough time, like literally thinking about and then doing things towards our future self and orienting our life in our environment in our situation. towards our goals, which we totally can do.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's so powerful. And I'm glad that you mentioned it's hard at first, it's not going to just happen, the habits not going to be there overnight. You have to give yourself grace and you have to allow yourself to, you know, stumble a few times. I know when I started my morning routine, it was not perfect from the start. It took me like half a year to actually just do it every day, and even on the weekends. So I love that you you mentioned that and, and is it when you think of your future self is that what helps you to overcome the discomfort and the uncomfortable feelings because let's be real, most people, if they're uncomfortable, or it's a lot of effort, they're just going to go back to what they're doing. So is it that connection that really changes overcoming them?
I think the commitment to the future self gives you the courage to be vulnerable and honest with other people. Again, going back to transparency that you need help. Often you'll hit walls. I hit many walls, isn't it Example trying to complete my PhD, I almost got kicked out my program almost gave up. But luckily for me, my wife was just as committed to me finishing that as I was. And so like, she pushed me along, you know, like she was committed to our future self. But even and I would often have to call, you know, what I would call in the book, empathetic witnesses, but I'd have to call people really important encouragers. And I think we all need people who encourage us when we're struggling, you know, because if you're pursuing bigger goals than you've currently achieved, obviously, you're gonna hit walls, because your current self is just not there yet, which is totally understandable until define, and it's when you hit those walls. Like there's one of my favorite quotes is we're kept from our goals, not by obstacles, but by a clear path to a lesser goal. And so often you'll hit an obstacle, which is totally normal, natural, and that could then either lead you to questioning, should I keep going, or should I just take a clear path to an easier outcome? And I think often you need to get help and support you need to say, look, I need help. I'm struggling There were many times that an example with this book personalities and permanent where I was satisfied, as, you know, multiple drafts before where I was just like, I'm done with this like I'm, I took me way longer than I wanted to and I was like, No, I think it's good my luckily I editor and other people who were like, nope, we see so much potential in this book, we're not letting you quit, even if it's terrible for you like, go take another two weeks try to figure it out. And I luckily had to get a better editor I had to get a really good editor to help me through it helped me think things through so you also just need to expand your support network and get better people to help you through your goals and to be open and honest when you are literally stuck. And the longer you keep it in, you're as sick as your secrets. You could you could turn it you could turn the obstacles into a trauma, which would then lead you to giving up on the goal.
Yes. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you for sharing so many wonderful insights today. If you're listening clearly you need to buy this book personality isn't permanent. I'll make It's linked in the show notes. It's really an amazing book because you take a topic and something that's so popular and culture and you dive so deep, and it like really makes you think. And it really makes you question, what you're doing. And the tips that you give are so useful. And I could just I just started using them as soon as I read it. And so it really is a powerful, powerful book. And I really hope that if you're listening, that you buy this book, and out of everything, though, that you share today, if someone could take away just one thought or one thing to get closer to taking ownership of their life in their personality, what is it that you would want them to walk away with?
I mean, the main thing is identity, that identity is your choice. Often identity is not thought out very much. We just sometimes particularly say just this is who I am. You can catch yourself, saying really weird limiting things about yourself. And I think just being conscious of your identity and the person you describe yourself To be that is not fixed. Just because you've described yourself a certain way in the past, or just because you've been a certain way in the past doesn't mean that's who you have to be in the future. The future is open territory. And actually, even I explained in the book, The past is pretty open territory as well. But your future self, in my opinion, should be the thing that you should base your identity upon your chosen person, your chosen identity. And that should then you I invite you to have the courage to admit that that's what you would love to have, if you could have it. And right now, you may not have the mindset to get there right now, you may not have the support, the encouragement, the skills to get there. But if you admit that that's where you want to go, and you start telling people about it without ego, then you can start watching yourself, build a routine and an environment and maybe a skill set around getting that. So the invitation of this book is rather than your past, being the thing predicting your future, or the past, being the thing, predicting your behavior, your future should be that thing and it totally can be and that's how you live an intentional life.
I love that whole thing. You Thank you. We I really appreciate you chatting with me today. And I hope that you guys are well in Orlando and everything's good and thank you so much.
No, thank you. huge pleasure.
Now it's time for an affirmation. I am open and flexible. I choose the person I'm becoming an act with deliberate intention. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did, and don't forget to subscribe and share this episode with a friend. See you later.