Megan Imbert: [00:00:00] Hello, my courageous friends on this week's episode of The Frequency of Courage, I am joined by my dear friend Derek Coburn, who is coming out with his latest book, let's Retire Retirement. Derek, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so pumped for this conversation.
Derek Coburn: Hi Megan. I'm so happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Megan Imbert: There is so much I wanna talk to you about, and I was saying before we hit record, I was getting a little emotional because I was thinking about our relationship and a lot of people that listen know the story of going on record against the NFL and your wife, Melanie Coburn, who has become a sister to me, and you've become a brother to me.
We've really been in the trenches and this whole podcast, I don't think would've come about had I not met both of you and us going on record. So I wanted to start out and just say thank you , for your support and being such a great example of a husband, of a father. , So I was getting a little in my feels.
You can hear me getting a little [00:01:00] shaky. You just mean so much to me and, such a great example.
Derek Coburn: Great example. Oh, thank you so much. It was a pleasure and an honor to support you and Melanie and all the work that you were doing there. And yeah, this, podcast of yours, this amazing podcast is just one of many wonderful ancillary benefits that came outta, that entire process for all of you. So thank you for being so wonderful to Melanie and to me and to so many others that I love and care so much about.
Megan Imbert: Yeah. This is so fun because you've also been preaching about having more fun in life and creating what inspired this latest book?
Derek Coburn: I first had the idea to write this book back in 2017 when I was very much active in wanting to grow my wealth management practice. I've been a financial advisor for 27 years and I wanted to write a book that would be a good business card to attract more of my ideal [00:02:00] clients, which were wealthy people. I mean like my minimum account size was like a couple million dollars of investible assets. And I got approached in 2019, by a private equity company to sell my practice, which I did. Then covid happened and my dad passed away and all kinds of things. I was sort of living a lot of what I'm preaching in the book with the way I was showing up for my kids and my wife and my friends and myself.
And when I finally went to shake the dust off, I realized that now I was in a position. 'cause I didn't really want to grow my wealth management practice anymore. I didn't need to get anything out of this book. I could write a book that was gonna benefit, a significantly larger audience than maybe just the people that I was trying to target as clients.
Megan Imbert: Yeah, let's talk about your dad a little bit. I know that his impact on your life and how you live currently and you're an example of where you're focused on your health, and he had dementia, which I know is so, so challenging to watch. What an [00:03:00] impact on your life and how he lived his life. If you could share, the impact there and that experience.
Derek Coburn: Melanie would say, and I think she's right, she pointed out that, that I sort of became very focused on my health, when my father got that dementia diagnosis.
I've always been in the gym. I've always,
Megan Imbert: yeah.
Derek Coburn: Lifted weights. But really like the way that I am now, the way that I am really dialed in with sleep and with, protein and meditation it was sort of like an indirect result of seeing what happened with my dad. It's interesting my dad got this, uh, this rare form of dementia. We started noticing things were off with him in 2013, and he got pretty bad, pretty quick. I would say over a couple of years, just got to a place where he didn't recognize us most of the time. Maybe he did, but it wasn't like super obvious to us. We weren't really sure what we were gonna get with him when we saw him. Hmm. And when I first started writing the book, I was thinking like, man, my dad, had been talking about retirement. He's gonna miss out.
Like he worked, he shouldn't have done that. [00:04:00] And after he passed in 2022, so we had this long extended period of time where he had dementia and was really just kind of a shell of his former self. Mm-hmm. I was flipping through pictures and I was seeing how, maybe I was wrong about my dad, that my dad actually was living a certain way.
He was traveling a lot. He was making time for his kids. I saw the picture of his desk that he had back when I was probably like 10 when he had turned down a partnership position with a big CPA practice in Baltimore so he could be at home more. And so he was like one of the OGs of working from home and hanging out with his kids.
He was always at my sporting events. Same for my brother and sister. And, in recent years before his diagnosis, like we were having conversations about startups and he was showing an interest in investing in businesses, showing maybe a little bit of an entrepreneurial bug.
And so I really don't think my dad was actually ever going to retire. And even though I thought that [00:05:00] maybe he was missing out, I was reminded that a lot of the way he lived his life, really was setting the table and setting the example for me and laying the groundwork for the way that I was living my life now and what I wanted to communicate in the book and, what I'm hoping to get people to think differently about if they read it.
Megan Imbert: I loved in the book you're talking about those $50,000 moments. Mm. And of course, knowing your sons and hearing, the bedtime routine, can you share with the what that means, the $50,000 moments?
Derek Coburn: I know you and your listeners, we all know the benefits of having a gratitude practice and being in the moment and we do those things, but sometimes, we still, at least for me, it was hard at times. So this particular example, my kids are 10 and seven, they're 15 and 12 now, and Melanie and I had this nice bedtime routine with them where we would alternate , 10, 15 minutes of snuggling, a little bedtime story. Laying [00:06:00] there with myself a lot, especially when I realized my oldest probably wasn't gonna wanna do this very much longer, I was still thinking to myself, would you hurry up and fall asleep so that I can go have a glass of wine with Melanie, or return this email or watch this show?
I'm like, I'm trying to force myself to be more present 'cause I know I'm gonna miss it. And it wasn't really working the way that I wanted it to work. And so what I did was I, I just had this thought, like I imagined that there was a company 30 years from now in the future when I was 65 that invented a time machine.
And they said they would be able to send us back in time for one night, one experience, for a fee. And so it's like how much would you be willing to pay to go back in time to have, if you're 60 years old, 65 years old, to have one night with a 10-year-old version of your kid who's now like 40 something, right?
That you get to relive that moment. For me, it would be a very large number, but I settled on $50,000. I just know for me personally. [00:07:00] I would stroke that check in a second if I had the opportunity to do that.
Megan Imbert: Mm-hmm. And that
Derek Coburn: Allowed me to start thinking about a lot of these experiences I have with my kids and my friends and my wife these are $50,000 moments that a lot of us are taking for granted on a regular basis.
And even though the bedtime snuggles have come and gone. I have these other wonderful moments with my kids, and I, I think Jerry Seinfeld said it initially and Ryan Holiday talks a lot about it in his daily dad blog where, there's no such thing as quality time. All time is quality time, the junk time is quality time.
We don't have to manufacture these special amazing moments. It's just like driving my kid to and from soccer practice is something that I'm gonna wish I, could do more of when it comes and goes. 'cause it's not gonna be around forever.
Megan Imbert: One of my favorite mantras that I've always had is don't save something for a special occasion every day is a special occasion. Yeah. You know, I never and granted, I've never been married, but I always kind of look perplexed when I go to a friend's house and I see the wedding China in [00:08:00] a cabinet or something and I'm like, can I just have some water here? Like let's just use these glasses.
They're fun, they're fancy. But yeah, that whole concept, there's so many moments. I would encourage anyone listening what are those things that you're like waiting for the perfect time? And when you were reflecting on those $50,000 moments, what advice would you give someone? I keep preaching about the importance of journaling and meditating and giving yourself some space.
I know when I got laid off last year, you gave some really great advice for me of just take the time to just sit with the Joe Dispenza work, the energy work so many people are walking heads going so busy through their life that your book also will help inspire those thoughts of , am I living the way that I wanna be living and redesigning life from the patterns of you must work until this age and you must do this.
Versus maybe there's a different side hustle . But I think going back to finding stillness and space to even think. Or just be. What would your advice be for people to identify those moments?
Derek Coburn: A [00:09:00] lot of people assume that I worked really hard on this book because I tell them I started it in 2017, but it really was less about hard work and more about being able to take my time with it and be patient.
Like I didn't think about it for a number of years. And I think that the best person for any of us to get advice from is the most optimized version of ourselves. Mm-hmm. It is the version of us that is well rested, that has a clear mind, that has a calm, central nervous system that has motivation and energy.
And, one of the things that I'm doing with this book is I'm showing people that by, identifying and recognizing that they probably will not be happy sitting around doing nothing for 30 years, that they're probably gonna wanna work longer than they thought. I am magically giving them
additional amounts of time and money right now that they get to do different things with. And so whether you've just lost a job, whether you're out of a relationship, whether something has happened to you that has thrown you off [00:10:00] track, I don't think that version of us is the best version or most qualified version to be making important long-term decisions.
And I think that what we can do with some of this space that we have is we can have a meditation practice, a walking practice, a prayer practice, working out, like doing sleeping better. Commit to doing these things for a couple of weeks. I think our society really overemphasizes the benefits of the long-term benefits of sleeping and working out and diet like , you should do these things because of how great you're gonna feel 20 years from now. And there's not enough talk about why we should do 'em because of how much better we're gonna feel 20 hours from now. If you sleep well tonight, versus if you don't sleep well, if you sleep well tonight, you're gonna wake up tomorrow morning and you're gonna make better choices at nine o'clock.
And those better choices are gonna lead to better choices at 11 o'clock and it'll just keep going and going and going. And so I think the ability to hit pause and I think a lot of times people feel like they can't hit pause because they're playing the money game and I have to keep making money and I [00:11:00] have to save i'm worried I'm gonna go broke and not be able to pay rent, and so on and so forth. I think that we have more time than we think, when we realize we're gonna be making money longer in life and , we can just kind of take a step back and make sure we're approaching some of our challenges and big choices with a better overall state of being.
Megan Imbert: There's so much there I wanna touch on one thing you point out in the book, even just the concept of retirement, right? You point out right now we're living longer than previously when this whole concept of retirement even came about. Can you walk us through a little bit of the history lesson of where this even came from?
And to your point on you give the example of the two Tony's in the book, which I find fascinating. 'cause then I'm like thinking to myself, am I saving too much per month versus having fun and going with you and Melanie to some concert. I'm like, shit, maybe I'm being too responsible.
Derek Coburn: Yeah so let's start with Tony because I wanna hook everybody in here and I wanna really highlight, for everyone just how much of a difference working a little bit longer can make in their [00:12:00] lives. So this guy Tony that I made up is 45 years old he makes $150,000 a year and he has $150,000 saved up for retirement.
If Tony wants to have a traditional retirement and stop working at 65, because look, that's the age that most people pick, usually because a financial advisor says, what age do you wanna retire? Financial advisors don't say, do you wanna retire? They say, what age do you wanna retire? You're automatically opted in.
Most people say, I'm not really sure. And then they say, well, you should pick 65, because that's the age that pretty much everyone else picks. And we can come back to that in a second. So people say 65, and if Tony wants to retire at 65, he has to save $2,400 a month in order to stop working, which is a non-starter for most people, right?
Like that's 20% of what he's bringing home, which means that he's spending just a little bit more than he's saving. Okay. Now look, you can change the numbers, you can add a zero, you can make it 75,000. You can make it 500,000. They'll change [00:13:00] slightly. But, the math generally is still the same. So for our purposes, we're using all the assumptions that the financial services industry makes about inflation and, , conservative rate of returns.
And I have him dying at 95. If Tony decides he's gonna work until he is 75 instead of 65, the amount that he needs to save goes from $2,400 a month ready for this down to $110 per month. It goes down by 96%. People look at me like, how is this? I've been asking clients this for 10 years. I've been asking them to guess what they think it's going to go down to, and no one ever comes close.
And the reason for this is, in the first example, he has 10 less years of working, 10 less years of allowing his money to compound and then he needs the money to last for 30 years. And the second example, he has 10 extra years of working, 10 extra years of living off of an income, 10 extra years of allowing what he has in there to [00:14:00] compound and grow.
And then he only needs it to last for 20 years. Even if you were to say, I'll work until I'm 70 instead of 75, , it goes from 2,400 down to 600. So it's a 75% reduction by choosing to work longer. And look, if people hate their job, if they don't like what they're doing, I don't want 'em to keep doing it.
I don't want 'em to do it any longer than they have to. But finding work that you enjoy doing or that you don't hate doing on your terms and doing a little bit of it, it doesn't have to be the grind that you're experiencing now. It doesn't have to be, as much, but having some income coming in later on just opens up an incredible amount of flexibility and gives you so much more time and money that you get to spend differently right now.
Megan Imbert: It's amazing. And even the 401k and that getting created was, you point out in the book how that was not meant to be what people are solely, reliant on. And I think it, it brings to light the whole concept of work in general where somehow people get stuck in a system. [00:15:00] They're either in the system and they're cranking it out and years go by, are they miserable ever after?
And we've talked about this a little bit too, between value-based happiness, material based happiness, and you could go to some of the most impoverished places in the world and they're the happiest people because they have community and they have family and they have this experience versus someone super rich have all the material things.
Yeah. But then they're either getting sick or dropping dead of a heart attack. The pressure, and I'd love your perspective on that because cadre is this network that you've built of entrepreneurs that are figuring out how best to live and work and be highly successful. You talk about happiness and meaningful pursuit as well in the book.
And I think that's a subject entirely that I would love for all of us to have a reset or an assessment of am I even happy? Yeah, and I'm not expecting people to be happy 24 7, but if you're pursuing a job [00:16:00] that you're working usually more than 40 hours a week in corporate America, let's just use that as an example.
Chances are, the stress and all of that, it's just gonna have this domino effect of sickness.
Derek Coburn: I'll tell you really quickly 'cause I don't want to, I don't want to appear to be dodging any questions. So, retirement was, the concept of retirement is just barely over a hundred years old.
And it was invented in 1889 in Germany while they were setting up the first ever social retirement program by, , chancellor at the time his name was Otto v Bismarck. And, he picked the age of 70 because that was the age that most people, , were expected to live until, and, they finally reduced it to 65 years later.
And then FDR in 1935 putting together the Social Security Act, thought that sounded like a good number. And to your point, we were, we're living to like 70, 71, 72 at the time. And now we have the opportunity, I think to live, , a lot longer. I think that that's only gonna continue to potentially grow.
Mm-hmm. And not just live longer, but have like a really nice quality of [00:17:00] life. Along the way. So yeah, the happiness, meaning conversation is really a good one to break down. Do you remember the story that I shared about the, the kittens from Wayne Dyer?
Megan Imbert: Mm-hmm.
Derek Coburn: All right. Can I share a quick story?
Yeah, please. This is one of, this is one of my favorite Wayne Dyer stories, so
Megan Imbert: all, all the stories. Derek,
Derek Coburn: I got you. So there was an old wise cat and a small kitten in an alleyway. The old cat saw the kitten chasing its tail and asked, why are you chasing your tail? The kitten replied, I've been attending cat philosophy school and I have learned that the most important thing for a cat is happiness, and that happiness is located in my tail.
Therefore, I am chasing it, and when I catch it, I shall have happiness forever. The old cat started laughing and replied, my son, I wasn't lucky enough to go to Cat philosophy school, but as I've gone through life, I too have realized that the most important thing for a cat is happiness and indeed that it is located in my tail.
The [00:18:00] difference I found though is that whenever I chase after it. It keeps running away from me. Mm-hmm. But when I go about my business and live my life, it just seems to follow me wherever I go.
Megan Imbert: Hmm. So
Derek Coburn: that is a really nice way of thinking about the pursuit of happiness and how the pursuit of happiness often doesn't yield happiness.
So there's a study that was done, , I think by Barbara Fredrickson she went to Stanford. I think the research was done in North Carolina and it had two different groups of people. It had a group of people that prioritized happiness, and it had a group of people that prioritized, meaning they tracked these people, they hooked these people up to brain monitors, heart monitors, to really see what was going on in their bodies when they identified as wanting to be happy or wanting to , live with a purpose and live with meaning. The people that prioritized happiness, , had the same response in their bodies that a body has when it's dealing with a chronic adversity. When it's dealing with the loss of a [00:19:00] loved one, the loss of a job, their inflammation markers went through the roof, their immunity went down.
They were more likely to get sick. They were more likely to die. And the people that prioritized, meaning the people that said, I'm not here just for myself. I'm here to make a difference. I'm here to show up in a way that's gonna benefit everyone else. It was just the opposite. Inflammation went down their immunity was great. They felt so much better. And a lot of this , is related to some of the work that Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi did around flow states. And he was able to determine that. Being in a flow state when you're just, when you've lost track of time and you're engaged in work you're doing and you love doing it, and it's providing meaning, and that is the most happy that a human being can have.
I think people, if you were to ask them, would say they'd be happier. You're sitting on a beach with a fruity alcoholic beverage and maybe that lasts for an hour. Maybe it lasts for a day, maybe it lasts for a week, but it's not sustainable Happiness, the [00:20:00] way meaningful contribution, doing things that you really enjoy doing is gonna provide for you.
Megan Imbert: I love that. I quote, chip Conley quite a bit on this show too, on the ROI instead of return on investment. Ripple of impact too. Yeah. Flow State is fascinating in college, I took a course in positive psychology, and so much of that was around some of the toughest things to do in life, forgiveness, showing gratitude, if you are present, when we're not connected to our devices, when we're really present, like this conversation right now, being very present, time can fly, what advice would you give, for folks to determine what a meaningful pursuit might look like for them?
Unravel their patterns, their programming?
Derek Coburn: There's not a silver bullet that I'm aware of for me it was, selling the practice, having covid happen, it just freed up the space for me to
Megan Imbert: mm-hmm.
Derek Coburn: To have a meditation practice, to look into trauma, to do a bunch of [00:21:00] therapy to all the modalities.
And what's interesting is, I realized I was playing the game. I think that most people were playing, I was playing the money game, and I mm-hmm. And I kind of won that game. I didn't win it to the extent that maybe everyone wins it, but I won it to the extent that I got to take a step back to say do I even want to play this game anymore?
And the answer, I think is, is probably no. And I will say, , sidebar here, something that's been on my mind a lot is, I wonder if it's possible to play another game without winning the primary game first, because, , I quit all my addictions. I, had, for 20 years, I probably had one or two glasses of wine most nights.
I was rarely drunk, but it was just a little wine, a little gummy here and there , I had a 25 year nicotine addiction, daily nicotine addiction, and I just said I'm relying on all these coping mechanisms that I think a lot of people rely on to just sort of numb everything a, a little bit.
And I would like to get myself, to a place where I don't [00:22:00] need anything. Mm-hmm. I don't need wine or cannabis to relax. I don't need nicotine to focus. I don't need anything from anyone to be the best version of me. And I could definitely say that I don't recommend, quitting all these things at once.
Like, that was probably not a good idea. But I often wonder, I think that if I'm like a single mom with a nine to five, nine to six job, I wouldn't have been able to do what I did. I was able to do what I did because I had some money in the bank and I had my relationships , in good enough order to where I could get a little messy.
So I don't know that there's, one, go-to recommendation, but I will tell you that one of the things that I uncovered through, primarily through my meditation practice was this wiring, this operating system of mine that went back to me being a kid.
And so the TLDR, , is I'm in seventh grade at a new school and I find myself for whatever reason in class with the entire room chanting, who do we hate? We hate Derek. I've got teachers and principals [00:23:00] telling me that I'm not gonna be successful because I'm not getting good grades. And I've got girls telling me they don't want to date me.
And then I find myself 30 years later, , with, multiple businesses including one that I just sold more friends than probably most people I know have great relationship with my kids and married, the best possible woman in the world for me to marry, right?
So my life became one big gigantic, like, you don't think I can do something? Watch me. And that served me really well and I'm really grateful for that energy and all that it provided for me. And I didn't need it anymore and I was waking up a lot of days it was almost like, who are we gonna start a fight with today?
In order to prove somebody wrong, you need to have an adversary. So who are we gonna go start something with? Because whenever we sort of feel like we need to prove ourselves, a lot of magical things happen for us. And so I've been really working to try to unwind that so that I can show up and create from a different place.
Although, I will [00:24:00] say that I do think having a common enemy and having something to go after might not be the worst thing in the world.
Megan Imbert: I love the, I love this conversation so much. I know we've talked about this privately a little bit as there's the ambition and also you're bringing up something, , that I have a lot of conversations or I'm leaning into 'cause it's sometimes uncomfortable for me as I heal any masculine wounding is really around, that protect, provide there's a lot of men out there that have that, I'm gonna prove you wrong. I'm gonna show you and I'm gonna command control and I'm gonna lead with sometimes more ego than necessary. Yep. And I realize had you not had that chip on your shoulder, would you be where you are today? Oh no. And probably not, right?
Yeah. But I think it's worth a conversation around, what I find really admirable is you're having an identity shift as you're going through this, of realizing okay, I can soften a little bit more. And there's a way of leading your life as an [00:25:00] example we have such a good banter around what's going on between masculine, feminine, and years ago, I was much more combative because of my own wounding. Yeah. And now I'm just like, Ooh, Derek's one that I can play with and be like, what's your perspective on this? This comment really bothers me. Or we talk about like Joe Rogan or other people and I am learning to have more compassion and recognizing we all have our own wounding that's created why we've shown up the way that we have. And I joke now in corporate America that I'm t thawing out. I don't need to emulate a man in the boardroom that was command control. I can wait and share and get everyone's thoughts and collaborate. So what's the new paradigm for leaders?
And to me, a leader doesn't have to have a title. It's just how do you show up every day and it's the influence with the people and the hearts and the minds. So I'm curious, as you've evolved, I'd love your perspective both on the new Paradigm for Leaders. We have a lot going on here in this [00:26:00] country and in business. And at the same time, this dynamic as you're raising two sons that are also compassionate and driven
Derek Coburn: You've heard me say this before, I think that the best possible leaders for free worlds and corporations are women with strong feminine qualities. I want to see more of that. It seems for me that a lot of the women that try to have recently tried to step into roles of power have tried to embody more masculine qualities, and specifically the shitty masculine qualities, like the stuff about men that like mm-hmm.
No one really likes like the ego and the power and the dominance and that sort of thing. And, , I would just love to see the rise of more, and it could be men too mm-hmm. That are presenting with more feminine qualities, but the rise of more women who are leading with that I think is really what the world's missing right now, among [00:27:00] other things.
Megan Imbert: It's interesting 'cause I've been in these male dominated spaces, high tech, and what I've noticed, especially even the women leaders that I had had, I now have compassion because I think they were emulating the qualities that they saw that allowed a man to be successful.
Yeah. And now when I see even in the political realm, I think we have a number of women that could really lead. But now I'm starting to see it from the sense of like, wait, they might have all the facts and could do this in a great way, but the delivery I. The delivery. Yeah. I realize if I come into a room and I am, commanding, controlling, chances are there might be some guys in the room that start muting out oh, she sounds like my mom yelling at me right now. Yeah. And I, yeah. So it's like there's a way of being assertive and kind. Yeah. So I think this is really interesting.
Derek Coburn: Don't know how to get there and I don't know exactly like what to recommend or suggest.
And I find myself sometimes with Melanie will say, she's got like a great idea, and I'll find myself chiming in [00:28:00] and she'll say something that reminds me, or I'll be quick to remind myself like. Oh, like you are so much more dialed in for what to say in this situation or how to communicate with this person.
And I just love being able to learn from her and the way that she, 'cause she is like this, walking embodiment of great feminine. She can turn on the masculine if she needs to for sure. But, I just want be supportive however I can, you know, like I wrote this book with my friend Sara Stibitz and when we first started working together as my writing partner, she offered me the opportunity to pay her a little bit less in exchange for putting her name on the book with me. And this is going back to 20 17, 20 18. And I, I didn't see anybody else doing this. I I wanted it to be more just focused on me 'cause I wanted to use it for clients. And so I, I said no, and I paid her more. And we got to the end of the process and I'm just like, you know, this was really a joint effort
this book is gonna be a lot better because she was involved with [00:29:00] it. And, I want to use the opportunity if this book does as well as I think it's going to do. I want to lift her up. I want her to be able to shine here also. I want her to be able to charge more money. I want her to be able to demand, more respect and have better boundaries for herself and her work.
And, I don't want any accolades or awards for doing that, but there are just a lot of opportunities that a lot of men, I think have that they should be looking for, in terms of how they can lift the women up that are around them and that are in their lives.
Megan Imbert: I love that I have her book sitting over here too in the process of reading it. That's really awesome. And the other question, was related to raising two sons right now in this world, that have compassion and drive . How has that process been for you considering, you might have led your life earlier on with the kind of the chip on the shoulder, but then you hold your sons accountable and I love [00:30:00] seeing them working out with you and soccer games really interesting ages that they are right now. What's your perspective now, to raising two men that are, , in that very prime period of their life.
Derek Coburn: I really cherish, being a father and a husband more than anything else. My current situation in the past two weeks with my boys, my 15-year-old, had to write a paper for school about his hero, and he picked me and wrote about me being his hero.
Megan Imbert: Love that. My,
Derek Coburn: my me too, my 12 year recently just told me that he hated me and I was the worst dad in the world. And so look, it's just an ebb and flow and an up and down. And I love the fact he's allowed to hate me he's allowed to tell me that he hates me without getting into trouble.
He feels safe enough with me that he can say that to me without [00:31:00] worrying about it. And then that tells me we need to have a conversation. Look, it's around him wanting to use his technology and his screens more than we want him to use it and me doing what I know is best for him, whether he likes it or not.
So I can take it, but I also get to spend a lot of time, energy, and effort leaning into that more. And we're gonna talk about it. It's not gonna be oh, now I have to keep focusing on this book and I'm gonna get around to you hating me four days from now or a week from now, and let you sit with that.
'cause I'm sure that doesn't feel good for him to feel that or think that, , I've often thought, with this book, , I mentioned that my North star in life, the way that I show up, what I run most things through is I want to make choices that are going to increase the likelihood that my kids will want to spend more time with me when they're adults.
And my pastor has a mantra which I've adopted for myself, which is I wanna be more famous in my own home than I [00:32:00] am anywhere else. Okay,
Megan Imbert: love that.
Derek Coburn: In order for that to happen, you have to be home. And I have worried, it feels like I'm being called into something greater than me with this book, with this message.
Who it's gonna reach, who I'm going to impact. And at the same time, my kids are gonna be gone three and a half and five and a half years respectively. And I'm not willing to compromise that. And I think when they're gone sign me up for more work, more impact, more travel, more speaking, more fun, more whatever
but they're my priority right now. And it's like the good days, the bad days, the tension, the joy, all of it. It's a wonderful experience that I love almost every minute of
Megan Imbert: That's beautiful. I think it's so awesome that you're the hero and I can only imagine, I look back to when I was a teenager, I mean, frankly, teenager to my early twenties i've apologized to my parents so many times. I was not an easy person to raise especially the strong opinions and talking back , oh gosh, gave them [00:33:00] a run for their money. But now mom's like, you know what, , we don't regret your spirit.
Derek Coburn: The kids that are around , the same age as my kids, 20 years from now, when they're adults, they're gonna be in the therapist's office and their biggest gripe is going to be, I can't believe that my parents let me do all of these things that they knew were bad for me.
Mm-hmm. We had this idea that we're supposed to give kids choices and let them be sovereign and let them do what they want to do. But we know sugar's terrible for them, so why am I gonna let you eat sugar all day long? And we know that being on your phone and playing video games is not good for you.
So, sorry, , I'm just not gonna let you, I'm not gonna let you do it. And I tell my youngest one, , I'm limiting you here because if I let you keep doing it,, I don't think you're gonna love your life in five or 10 years if you do this all day long. And I certainly don't think that you're gonna like me very much.
And so I'm willing to take the short term hit recognizing that he's got the brain of a 12-year-old because he is 12 and he's probably not qualified to make a lot of these decisions on his own. So I'm [00:34:00] happy to be the adult in the room while he's still with me and help him make some of these decisions that I know are in his best interest.
Megan Imbert: Something you touched on earlier that I think could be related to, bring back the example of single mom with the kids people that have so much context switching in their life that don't have as much spaciousness as they need, or they're like, God, I just need a second to myself.
So they use those devices to distract and pass time. Yeah. I feel for that. And it's also, I don't have kids. I don't know what that's like it is an interesting thing though because you've been able to design your life in such a way, and at the same time I can see where someone is like, okay, what do I do with this, this fraction of time to be able to manage my life and spend time with them when you're depleted?
So I think it comes back to the earlier part of the conversation of figuring out ways to not be depleted you inspired me to get my oura ring, right? So I love looking at it now of like, oh yeah, what's my sleep score? And correlating what happened in my life?
But yeah, I do have a lot of compassion for the folks that might just not have the support system around them or they haven't been able to design their [00:35:00] life.
But it is getting out of scarcity mindset and figuring out a way of designing your life and having boundaries. I think if people really look at their lives, they can have more control over their scheduling of their time. I think that that's the people pleasing part and really getting firm on what you have time to do.
I know you and I have talked a lot about radical responsibility and I think that's a piece of this as well. If we look back at our lives, there's pieces of mine where I'm like, Hmm, yeah. Would've done things differently. But now I can own it for the future parts of me. I'd love to get your, , thoughts on radical responsibility people taking accountability for everything good and bad.
Derek Coburn: I think it is the number one thing that is correlated , with being happy and feeling fulfilled in life. I really do because when you are no longer blaming anyone else, when it's no one's responsibility for your happiness, and you accept all of the responsibility and all of the control that comes with it, [00:36:00] it's a little scary that you made some bad choices.
You have to forgive yourself. You have to sit with some shame. And I've done all of these things for allowing it to get to a place that it got to where you need to , take back the reins again, but I think that there's just too many people, it's just so much easier and it gives them just enough dopamine every day to say it's this person's fault, or this government's fault, or this organization's fault, and they get to feel a little bit better knowing that
I don't have to take responsibility for it, but as soon as you take responsibility for it now, now you're in control. Now you get to decide what happens next. And so that's always just been something that's been really helpful for me. Look, I, it could have gone in a lot of different directions. Seventh grade, having an entire school, basically saying that they don't want to be your friend and teachers telling you that you're not gonna be successful.
Not really being able to fit in. Having ADD , it could've gone in a lot of different directions I was making 500 cold calls a week when I started off my career just getting rejected [00:37:00] nonstop, all day long. And then I would even get rejected by women, when I, go out after work but I never took it personally. And I just said, look, I can be better. I can get better, I can do better. So I want that for people, not because I don't have empathy for them, not because I don't feel like their situation wasn't as ideal for them, maybe as it was for me or for other people, but because I think it's going to be the key thing for them to change their life around and unlock more happiness and more fulfillment.
Megan Imbert: I think this whole show is about stepping into courage, not having stigmas associated to taking care of yourself and your relationship. We talked about you as a father, but as a husband.
I know you and Melanie have opted in for therapy throughout your marriage. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Derek Coburn: Yeah. We've been in couples therapy for 18 years now, and in the last chapter of my book, it's called Investing in You. And I essentially say, hopefully, by helping you realize you're [00:38:00] probably gonna work longer than you thought. You likely have
more time and more money now that you get to do different things with, talk about a lot of different things, but one of the things I mentioned is just getting yourself right and then also investing in your primary relationship. And so, I did the math we've spent over $250,000 on couples therapy since we've been together.
And, it started off as a need. It was, while we were engaged, we weren't really sure if it was gonna be, the right thing for us to do. And then it quickly evolved over time into mostly like a luxury we spend the majority of our time talking through how to handle, other people in our lives who should be in therapy but are not.
Then we had during my whole midlife crisis thing over the past couple of years where I undid everything and shook up the snow globe and she was patiently, supporting me during that process. It came in handy quite a bit, but I think it's interesting, like for me, if things are not in a [00:39:00] really, really good place with my wife and my kids and myself and God and friends, then it's really hard for me to show up as the best version of me everywhere else.
And so, if I were not in therapy with my wife, I would have more money in my bank account right now, I think for sure. . I also think that, the game, whatever game you're playing, right? That game is not over yet. I'm creating from a place of being , more in love with my wife today
We've been together over 20 years now, than I was, when we first met than I was when we were, celebrating our 10 year wedding anniversary. Now I get to show up in the world , and be a father, and be a friend, and be a creator, and be an author, and be a leader knowing that bond is there.
So maybe the balance sheet looks quite different because in five or 10 years, because that's the position that I'm operating from right now because of that investment.
Megan Imbert: It's amazing. Relationship goals. You guys. [00:40:00] So cute. You also have started to talk about, the fun recession. I think this is really important and something that I think about a lot in making sure I'm making time for fun, which sounds ridiculous, but really, truly making time for fun.
Can you share your thoughts around the fun recession? I freaking love it.
Derek Coburn: Yeah. I think that 99% of adults are not coming close to having an appropriate amount of fun. I've been doing informal polls and surveys asking people, when was the last time you had fun? I've been doing this for years soccer games and school outings and with clients and with friends.
And the response I get most of the time is a pause , a period of thinking and an answer along the lines of a month or a month and a half ago, we went out to dinner with this other couple and had a bottle of wine and we talked about they don't even remember. Right. And so it can be triggering for some people for sure.
I don't think that there's a lot of people walking around that [00:41:00] feel really great about the amount of fun that they're having on a regular basis. And I'm not trying to make people feel bad. I'm trying to help remind people that they should be enjoying this a little bit more than what they're doing right now.
And, I think there's a lot of different ways to approach it i've got some opinions that I'm happy to, to share with you if you want, but the idea here is if we're gonna be doing the work and working on our business and working on ourselves and all that is wonderful and it's great then maybe we shouldn't work sometimes too.
Maybe we should play, maybe we should have fun. Maybe we should, just make a conscious effort to enjoy this one life we have a little bit more.
Megan Imbert: One thing I love to witness you and Melanie in particular, and obviously you're a DJ in another life, um, but you're, both of you, your love of music and then how beautiful too because of her love of dance and , how fun it is to get your playlist every year, your recommendations.
So music and dance, the sound healing components have been a big one for me. I do a weekly VibrAcoustic sound bed [00:42:00] session. I know you all love live music. Yeah. I think it would be really fun for everyone to hear about just your love story of, , last summer, your Pearl Jam, Taylor Swift, European trip.
I feel like that's so cool. And I'd love to know, are there any artists that you would recommend people checking out you always have great music selections.
Derek Coburn: Oh, thank you. I think that live music and standup comedy are the two best ways we can access fun as humans.
And the main reason I think that, is because they both have the conditions for a term called collective effervescence, which is a term that was founded about a hundred years ago. And the ingredients for collective effervescence, which has been determined to provide us with more joy than anything else, the conditions are being in a flow state and sharing the experience with other people.
So you're there at a concert singing along a part of the song that you have sang in your car [00:43:00] 30 times and 500 other people there, and they've done the same exact thing and now you're singing this thing along with them and feeling all that with them. There's nothing like it. People would argue sports.
I think sports can certainly mirror that. The problem with sports is there's like a 50% chance you're gonna be upset at the end of the night, like if your team loses. Not to mention all the anxiety along the way. The guitar player from my favorite band, is not going to, miss 17 shots tomorrow night and start, forgetting how to play the guitar in the middle of the concert.
Like, that's never gonna happen. I know that I'm gonna leave feeling great. All things considered i'll also say yes. Last year Melanie and I, while the kids were at camp, we went to Europe. We did Taylor Swift in Amsterdam. We did Pearl Jam twice in Barcelona. We did a bunch of Michelin restaurants.
I also saw 30 shows last year, and the average price of a lot of concerts, the concerts that I went to was like 30 bucks. If you haven't been having like a lot of fun lately, just [00:44:00] like if you haven't been going to the gym a lot lately, I wouldn't recommend signing up for a marathon tomorrow.
I would recommend committing to going to the gym once or twice, you know, for like a few weeks. I would recommend checking out local concert venues, local standup comedy clubs, wherever you are, and just doing something that's a little bit more bite-sized that you know that you can handle if you haven't been having a lot of fun and making it a priority.
Going back to the whole quality time, all time is quality time thing. I think you can work your way up to that. I will say there's a really cool app called Bands in Town that will connect with your Spotify. And based on who you listen to, , the actual bands that you listen to or bands similar to, the bands that you listen to, it'll ping you and let you know , when they're gonna be coming to town.
I know Megan, you live in like, the best possible place to live for live music in Austin
Megan Imbert: and comedy.
Yeah, and comedy too. You're right. Yeah. Everybody comes through,,
Is there an artist that you're listening to right now that you would recommend or like Top, top song lately for [00:45:00] you?
Derek Coburn: We just got back from my Morning Jackets festival i've seen them 25 times. They're a mix between Southern Rock and Prince and I just love them. I think they're the best live band going right now. Oh, Melanie and I. In particular, Melanie, there's this band that we, that we loved like 20 years ago called Born Ruffians, and they sort of like fell off our radar a little bit.
And I think they made a couple of albums but never caught on. All of a sudden, Spotify just popped them up about a week ago. They're coming up with a new album in a few weeks and they've released four songs and we love all of them. So Nice. And this will be one of those bands that if you check 'em out and you like them, that they'll be playing at the 400 person venue in your town, not necessarily like the arena in your town, which, , those shows are always so much fun.
Megan Imbert: Oh, this is so great. What do you hope your legacy looks like?
Derek Coburn: You mentioned Joe Rogan earlier. I remember listening to a [00:46:00] podcast, a Joe Rogan and Peter, do you know who Peter Attia is?
Megan Imbert: Believe so,
Derek Coburn: so he wrote the book, outlive, which was a number one New York Times bestseller for a while. And he's big in the longevity movement, he's more in the health span over the lifespan. His approach is you don't want to extend life to make the crappy years of your life longer.
You wanna extend your life to improve the quality of your life along the way. , They ended up just talking about, I don't listen to either one of these shows very much at all, but this particular episode, they both started talking about how they had had released the need to feel like they needed to prioritize their legacy and how fulfilling and how much it changed the way that they were showing up every day.
The pressure that they felt was relieved, , by not feeling that way. And I've kind of leaned into that a little bit. Part of me used to be really, I wanna know why we're here and who is God and what's gonna happen after [00:47:00] this. And I'm still curious about those things, I'm more curious, I'm more interested in just maxing out and enjoying this thing as much as possible while I'm here and just being surprised by what the outcome is.
And I think, if someone like a Joe Rogan or a Peter Attia with the amount of people that follow them, are not worried necessarily and focused on what the textbooks are gonna say about them, a hundred years from now, then why should I be worried about it? , I think my kids, my immediate family, I think about it and I've reserved the right to change my mind about this at some point in the future, by the way.
But right now it just feels really good to not feel like, I need to be worried about my legacy and what people are gonna be saying about me 50 or a hundred years from now.
Megan Imbert: I love that. I feel like I've been talking a lot about performative versus embodiment, and I think when you start to just really live and you're embodying, none of that matters.
Yeah. And people are going to feel your energy and they're gonna see how you live your life and it becomes a living legacy. [00:48:00] But I always love asking this question because there's always such a variety of takes on it. We talked about a ton of stuff today and your book goes even deeper on different, myths around retirement strategies, the investing in self.
If you were to have one or two things that you would love for a listener to take away from our conversation, obviously we want them to buy the book and if they're in the DC area, you have your launch party coming up on June 5th at the DC Improv.
Derek Coburn: Yeah.
Megan Imbert: Include with Dan with,
Derek Coburn: uh, Daniel Pink.
We're Fireside Chat. That's right.
Megan Imbert: And for those that don't know Daniel Pink, I have his book over here, but the Power of Regret and such an interesting Thought leader. So is it gonna be a fireside chat? Is that the format? Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really hard to ask the question of what are the two things someone should take away from our conversation today, but, what actions would you love for someone to take.
Derek Coburn: The first one would just be for them to think about if they have signed up for a [00:49:00] retirement plan and I don't mean they've signed up for a 401k plan, but they've bought into the idea that they need to sign up and have a job or do some type of work and make some sacrifices now to save money to have at some point in the future.
I would like them to reflect on how much thought they've given that, how well they think they will be able to predict what their future selves will want to have, how happy they think they'll be, not doing anything for a period of time. I think that a lot of people are not thinking about it.
There's a very big movement right now called the Unre Retirement Movement, where something like over 25 or 30% of 65 year olds are going back to work because they got here, they got there, it wasn't what they thought it was going to be. They were told if they did all of these things, they would get to this place and feel a certain way and now they're not feeling that way.
And while there are a lot of really great, organizations and communities and podcasts and thought leaders that are emerging to serve those people. I want to go back 20 years in [00:50:00] time, to the people that are a lot younger, the people that can make different choices now, so they don't feel that way when they get there.
I think the second thing is a lot of us are on autopilot, I think and, a lot of these moments that we have in our lives, a lot of the relationships, a lot of the people, a lot of what we're experiencing is not gonna be around forever. And just like in the case of, of kids society expects us to do most of our work, earn most of our money, sock away, most of our savings during the years when our kids probably need us and want us the most.
And, I don't think it has to be that way.
Megan Imbert: Mm-hmm. So, awesome. I've learned from you and I can't wait to see you do more speaking.
Obviously my dog does too. Yeah, she's
Derek Coburn: excited also.
Derek, thank you so
Megan Imbert: much also for being a great friend thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate you [00:51:00] and I can't wait to see you take on bigger stages. The world needs more Derek Coburn in their lives. So thank you so much.
Derek Coburn: Well, I feel the same way about you.
I love being here. I love your show. I love everything that's emerging from you. And I am a huge fan and , big time supporter of yours and just really appreciate you spending time with me today and giving me the opportunity to be on your show.
Megan Imbert: Thank you for joining and I will see you at your launch party in DC
Derek Coburn: I'm so excited.
Thank you.