Megan Imbert: [00:00:00] Hello, my courageous friends on this week's episode of The Frequency of Courage I am joined by my friend, Chris Hager, the Chris Hager, before we got started, I was thinking to myself. How do you describe a human being and what they're known for and you are someone since you came in my life last year I'm like you cannot possibly categorize this human being as a Channeler you are you are so many things So I would love to get started with where you are in this moment on this day How would you describe yourself?
Chris Hager: Wow. That's a great question. And we started to get into this before we hit record. And we were like, we probably should save this because, there's some, some gold here and I think it's a really beautiful question because it actually came up last week with a friend of mine and the mentor named, Peter Evans.
Chris Hager: And I was having that conversation with him. How do you describe what you do for people? [00:01:00] Because it is healing work. It is energy work, but there's like therapy in it. And there's so many things. And so I have all this stuff in my head and he immediately says, you know, he's this Australian guy, brokersly handsome and it's, mid sixties.
Chris Hager: And he's like, he's like, I don't, Mike, I don't, I don't, I don't tell people what I do. He's like, no, because that's so limiting. Then you people put you in this box and they expect you to be this one thing. Right. And we're all of these things, , so many. So rather than put it into this one box and say, here it is and live up to what people's expectation or idea of that actually means, it goes up at worst I might say, call me deeply spiritual or connected. Like we all are. And so I just thought that was a really salient point as I look to, , am I building a website? How am I talking about these things? And, , what's your bio? I don't know. , I, I, I, I tend to identify as a husband [00:02:00] and a loving father and trying to embody what I perceive to be the divine masculine and really live in that every single day through practices, through supports of my family and friends, by creating space for myself to do those things so I can show up for all the people in my life in beautiful ways. And I don't know that now that I've had that instruction from Peter, I, I go, maybe that's me too.
Chris Hager: Maybe I'm going to be so bold as to declare you can't put me in a box.
Megan Imbert: A hundred percent. And I feel that way about myself too. And because we are such complex, interesting creatures with so much depth and expansion. So for everyone listening, they're like, where is this conversation even going? We just kicked it off.
Megan Imbert: Who's who is this Chris Hager guy? You came into my orbit last year at a retreat in Austin, and I was just moved by immediately how vulnerable and open you were with [00:03:00] the crowd. So you were one of the facilitators, and it was the first time that I had been in a retreat setting that all of the facilitators were men.
Megan Imbert: And that was very intentional for me to be there as I work on my relationship with men and trust and safety, safety within myself, safety with other people. So I'd love to talk about your story a bit and what led you into this space in terms of you are now someone that is really a coach, a guide. I've worked with you in a channeling setting.
Megan Imbert: I'm going to, I'm figuring out my cadence of how I work with you throughout the year, but it's, you have such beautiful gifts. But there's that curiosity of like, well, what did this man go through? And I know bits and pieces of your story and I've been called, I feel like with this podcast to hold space for more men that show up in such an authentic, vulnerable, courageous way. Especially with the way masculinity, there's so many conversations around it. [00:04:00] And in my mind, I'm a true divine masculine man is one that is in touch with His divine feminine and is okay with showing all sides all emotions But I'd love to go back in time and talk about what's gotten you to this place in your life journey?
Chris Hager: Yeah, that's a broad stroke question for sure. I think just to paint a high level picture, growing up, my parents split when I was 5 years old.
Chris Hager: Um, so I really feel so I was raised by a single mother. My dad was certainly around. I had very. Uh, back and forth relationship with him as a child because I would see the struggles that my mom was going through financially, the pain, and she never said anything bad about my dad, but I would hear her, you know, through the wall, crying on the phone and talking to her friends and going through those things.
Chris Hager: And so all of a sudden, in my childhood, I felt like, , this is after much therapy and discussion that I realized I kind of robbed myself as a childhood because [00:05:00] I stepped up into more of a partner for my mother. And, you know, I tried to clean and, , do what little cooking I could and do things to make her happy.
Chris Hager: And I saw that if I was really funny and, charismatic, that would alleviate some of the pressure and some of the crying. And so I went into more of a partner role, , over those early formative years. And so progressing, growing up , in the eighties, , there was a lot of boys don't cry, rub some dirt on it.
Chris Hager: And, and that, toxic perspective of what a man actually is. And , flash forward to 2018, I went to Israel, I went to the West wall, I had a beautiful experience at the West wall, of a dream that basically said, follow the breadcrumbs that you'll see in your life, which led me to fit for service, which was this Aubrey Marcus mastermind course.
Chris Hager: And it was in there that I met, So many of the friends that I have here today, , those friendships have [00:06:00] led into other friendships with Austin and it's led to you and all these things. So it was like this community just really started to form and it was really upon arriving at those different, watershed moments, particularly for what an embodied man looked like.
Chris Hager: I remember in I think it was 2020. I saw one of the coaches for fit for service. This guy named Kyle Kingsbury, who is just this like behemoth of a man, like a brick shit house. , he fought in the UFC at like light heavyweight or heavyweight. You see the guy like, damn, all right, like, don't piss that guy off, but he's sweet as it could be.
Chris Hager: Sure. And there was 35, 40 of us sitting on the beach. He's wearing these little like, , euro shorts that are like four inches off his hips down in this big ass fanny pack. He's walking around the cowboy hat on and he starts talking about his wife and his son bear at the time. And he starts crying.
Chris Hager: [00:07:00] And I remember because I like, again, physically what a specimen he was and then all of a sudden tears are coming out and I'm like, is he okay? Do we, do we need to pause? We like, I was like concerned for him because I'm like, he's crying in public. Are we all okay? What do we, what do we do here? Like there was anything that I'm crying in public. Yeah.
Chris Hager: Yeah. You know, in front of 40 some odd people, right? Give or take. And so that all of a sudden I had this immediate reframe, like, well, wait, if he's doing it, it's okay. And if, if I consider him a man, whether it's just because of physical stature or this or that, all these other things.
Chris Hager: If somebody would make fun of him, he would probably take out four or five people, , it would take seven or eight guys to bring this guy down. So if it's about Oh, what does a man, a man can protect himself from this and that, well, then that same man is the one that's crying. If you're going to make fun of that dude, good luck.
Chris Hager: I would like to see how that goes for you. Probably not super well. And so I just remember having this [00:08:00] outstanding reframe of, Oh my God, my emotions are okay. Cause as a child, I immediately went to, if I'm not making somebody laugh or if I'm not angry, like those are the two emotions I was allowed to have as a kid, like you're Irish, you've got a temper, it's okay, right?
Chris Hager: And then be like, but tears weren't really welcome, right? That's, that's not okay. Not so much in my house. My mom was pretty good at it, but, , around school and by other friends houses and all this, it was just like really fascinating. Five years ago, so I'm 40, 40, 41 and I'm just thinking, wow, okay, like I've got, I've got some serious things to reconsider as to what a man looks like and then kept happening.
Chris Hager: Right? And then he would do it again and then somebody else and it was like this invitation and then all of a sudden other men were crying and other women were crying because the men were crying and then people were seeing each other. And I was like, okay, , what I need to do is I need to make sure that I pay this forward.
Chris Hager: Someday I might be someone's [00:09:00] definition of what a man looks like. And if I'm crying and it's okay for me to do it, maybe I'll have the same, grace that he just handed this torch to me and said, run with it without even probably realizing it because he embodied that. Then I said, wow, okay, like this is going to be okay.
Chris Hager: I'm going to show my strength through being really, really vulnerable. And so that was the entree into, the divine masculine and trying to embody that every single day. And, I could definitely talk about, stepping into these gifts, but I felt like it was sort of a, at least that prong of the thing is how did you get to that realization about embodiment about being able to cry and hold space for others to cry and leaders go first.
Chris Hager: Right? So when we do these men's retreats. I know that if I'm the first one to cry, and it's not like I'm trying or not trying to cry, it's just like, when it comes up, it's like, okay, I'm going to meet [00:10:00] myself with love, and I'm going to let it out, and when other people don't. We're probably
Megan Imbert: going to cry on this podcast today, no doubt, I'm sure.
Chris Hager: Yeah, I've got a little waterwork going as I first heard that story and I wasn't trying to suck it back, but I was like, Oh, okay, but that's about just the authenticity. I don't want to push it one way or the other. If the tears come, then it's so beautiful. What a beautiful way. To touch God by living in our humanity, by feeling those tears, , and, using them as holy water. this beautiful Mexican woman, Anahata, told me, don't wipe your tears away take them and, rub them on your throat if you need that,
Megan Imbert: right? You taught me that. Any time I cry, I will take the tears, and I, We'll put it usually on my throat chakra or my heart or something.
Megan Imbert: And that is just such a beautiful thing of how those tears can help heal me. So I thank you for that.
Megan Imbert: Two things that you touched on that I wanted to go back to was especially growing up Irish and I feel like There's so many cultures, whether it's Irish, Italian, there's so much [00:11:00] pride around tempers and whether it's drinking it's so fascinating to me because it, it feels like it's this like culturally ingrained piece of not only what it means to be a man, but a man in this type of culture and upbringing and, challenging those, those status quos and as you started your healing journey, how did your family receive that?
Chris Hager: , the family was, was pretty good about, , taking it on. There was definitely some shock that, that came over time as, as the gifts and the things came online, but Know my, when I, I did bufo for the first time in 2020, and that basically knocked my prevalation to alcohol out.
Chris Hager: , I went from drinking every day until I was about 39, 40 to maybe a couple of times a week, like on the weekends. I like the way it makes me [00:12:00] feel. I'm gonna go out and have a cocktail. Like that's how I, sure. That's how I get to beat me finally. Right. All the, all the things and. And when I did Bufo, particularly the second time, it was like, I just lost all taste for it.
Chris Hager: I, I didn't, I remembered why I liked it, but I didn't enjoy doing it. And I, I kept doing it like every once in a while, like, come on, we used to like this, like you can drink again. You can do it. Like it was such a backwards way, but I felt so good for, you know, from the time of 17, 18 until, until 40. I love drinking.
Chris Hager: I was the guy that my friends would be like, man, nobody loves drinking , like you're so excited to drink. And it was like this weird badge of honor, like, yeah, I love drinking
Speaker 3: and it's
Speaker 3: great that I had a mildly healthy relationship to alcohol, although there's not really a terrifically great relationship or healthy relationship that can be had at all.
Speaker 3: If you identify with it so much, , and yet [00:13:00] at the same time, it was like, I, I was like, missing a part of me that no longer was serving my highest good or my highest self. I didn't need alcohol to be that guy all of a sudden, I was just sort of becoming that embodiment more and more every day and it took me a while to really start to realize that and so I, I went from missing the drink to missing who I was when I drank to realizing I didn't need a drink to miss who I was because I was already that person to like, okay, full body
Megan Imbert: chills.
Megan Imbert: Yes.
Chris Hager: Yeah. Maybe, maybe this just isn't for me. And now, I went like a year and a half without drinking and then I had a cocktail for our anniversary. And I was like, Oh, this is a special occasion. And yeah, it just was like, okay, that's, that was nice and I don't need to do it again.
Megan Imbert: Yeah. It's interesting. You say that I've had similar experience now the past few years, with psilocybin, particularly helping me with that. And I, similar to you, a majority Irish, it was a badge of honor, like, Oh, yeah, we can throw down [00:14:00] some shots and drink and now, and there's no judgment to it.
Megan Imbert: It's just like, wow. How, how uncomfortable was I within myself to be in settings with other people, or what was that barrier, that kind of that wall or something. And frankly, now I'm just like, it makes total sense. When it comes to different substances too, I know there's obviously a lot of preconceived notions around plant based medicine, but , I've been so vocal about it now because it. It completely changed my life. It's helped me with my self worthiness, my safety within myself, the foundation. And you talk a lot about embodiment and I've heard some of like your writings and your prayer that you have that you read to yourself every day.
Megan Imbert: Like those moments, like I will never forget witnessing you in that. Something that's been sitting with me a lot in terms of as I grow into The best version of myself, my highest potential person is really around [00:15:00] embodiment. Over any kind of performative setting and I'm, I'm sitting with that in, in most moments I'm so present during the day where it's like, how does this feel in my body?
Megan Imbert: How am I showing up? And, even in workplace settings, right? I'm bringing the style of leadership I always wanted to have , and realizing that while my spiritual gifts as we've talked about are starting to come online, how in tune are we in trusting our intuition, trusting that guidance. So it's really beautiful where I'm okay with exactly where I am. And how I show up in myself and my leadership, it's showing people there's another way of doing this. It doesn't all have to be this command control and ego driven. It can be loving, it can be caring, but also having standards and, , boundaries and asserting yourselves in different ways. And so I love what you talk about when you talk about leadership and, being vulnerable, being the first and obviously courage, the frequency of courage, . What does courage mean to [00:16:00] you?
Chris Hager: , I think courage is. It's acting in the face of fear, right? It's knowing that you've got the skill set and the tools and that God or the universe or however you would like to internalize your relationship with the higher source, has your back, right?
Chris Hager: And these things don't get put on our plate unless we have the capacity to go through them. And I think fear is where we look at it and we think. I don't have the capacity to handle this, right, but what you're doing is you're pushing that edge. You're pushing past what you thought you could do. And you're stepping into something that you go, Oh, I didn't realize I could do this. God is like this amazing coach. It's like, you're ready for the double back flip down. Like I'm not doing no double back flip. Like, well, your life depends on it. Let's go. Holy crap. I had to, I got to try and pull this off now. And, I heard this quote that I love and it's really stuck with me in the last couple of months, but, um, man, I wish I could get credit to have said this, but, , he said that, [00:17:00] fear is a mile wide, but an inch deep.
Chris Hager: And I think when you go into fear, you really start to realize that, oh my God, this is not as bad as I had it in my head. And, I'm constantly trying to coach myself and the people I sit in front of, which is beautiful because I'm attracting people who are going through similar things that I am or similar things that I've just gone through and made it through.
Chris Hager: And it's this constant reminder lately that when you push through something, you push through fear, you do find out what you're capable of. You realize that all of it was in your head. And if you just feel into something rather than think about something, two totally different things happen inside of your body.
Chris Hager: When this turns on and you're afraid, it's like, Oh, my God. We're supposed to be afraid right now. Here's all the things that to be afraid of. Remember when your dad did this when you were a kid and your mom didn't do that and your best friend left you and made fun of you and like, you're like, Oh, my God, there's [00:18:00] so much here.
Chris Hager: And then when you just feel like, how do I feel about this? Feel a little bit nervous in my body. Am I safe? Yeah, I'm safe. Am I going to be okay? Yeah, that feeling, right? Which is why I love like the frequency of courage, it's not the feeling of courage, right? Or the thought of courage is the frequency that is like this embodiment of more of a feeling in this emotional state to go into and to move forward into something, knowing that you can handle it because you're ready.
Chris Hager: You might not feel it. And yet you're ready to handle it.
Megan Imbert: I love that. That's beautiful. , I am so inspired even by this show because it's been cathartic for me, but then also hearing other people's stories and witnessing and the power of witnessing. And that's something that's been really profound for me.
Megan Imbert: In women's circles and then when I'm around men and as we talk about our shared experiences, I think that's the difference between one on one therapy and community healing is actually we're witnessing each other and we're, going through something [00:19:00] similar and realizing they're not alone.
Megan Imbert: And I think that's really what the world needs more of these days, especially when we deal with loneliness and addictions and people feeling so, so alone and it's very polarizing. What has your process been like? Cause I know obviously you have a lot of men's circles and retreats and things that you lead. What has that been like in terms of the witnessing another man?
Chris Hager: Yeah, you know, I, I think, , I'm gonna take back that word even and say I feel because that, that, that is really the medicine that's coming through right now as I say this, when I, I feel into it. It's so ubiquitous, whether you're a man or a woman more masculine or feminine, regardless of your gender type, how you identify there's those polarities that sit inside of all of us. And as I have looked at what the witnessing of other men come into their feelings, right? Because there's this societal sort of narrative that. As a man, you've got to be strong all the time.[00:20:00]
Chris Hager: You've got to do this and this is how you hold it together. And this is what it looks like. This is what a provider is. And certainly the feminine has their own challenges for sure. When I look at what happens when men just get witnessed, when somebody actually takes the time to say, Hey, all of you is welcome.
Chris Hager: And that includes the part that you've brushed into the corner of these tears and , this regret or the shame or guilt or whatever it is. I know you think it belongs over there and not here with us. That's the piece that we want to invite into the circle and when we elicit our own emotions and I'm talking about it. I've gone through some heavy things, my infidelity with my wife, an overdose, right? And, a near death experience and into rehab and quitting a seven figure job. There's been so many things that I've had to go out and share. and I'm blessed to have the opportunity and the community that [00:21:00] has presented that opportunity for me to be witness for me to strip off my mask and my clothes and stand transparent, like naked and say, this is all of me.
Chris Hager: I have some shame that I'm dealing with, but I feel safe enough in here to release this. And then when, when you set that tone as a facilitator, as a coach, or as a leader, even if you don't have any of those titles, when somebody does that first, the next guy is not going to be like, well, how about the Dodgers and all the players they've started, huh?
Chris Hager: How about you pass me a Miller there, Steve? And no, it's like, there's no way that's going to happen. Now that person's like, I didn't want to talk about, like, my wife, cheating on me or, or by the time I smacked , my son but now they feel safe enough to do it. And when a man has been witnessed, because men are so used to being witnessed as the projection that society has for them.
Chris Hager: When somebody not only sees them and sees past [00:22:00] it, and you know, I'm very blessed that one of the things that's come online is my ability to see through the mask and to really communicate and pull out some expression that sits behind it because I can ask poignant questions and say, well, tell me really about what it felt like when you lost your mom and you didn't see her from 5 to 12 years old.
Chris Hager: What? Why are you asking me? I'm like, right in tears. And when that is held in that space. And that safety just produces magic and everybody else wants to be seen, right? Because what's more liberating than being seen and being completely transparent and having somebody just say, Hey man, I love you. Thank you.
Chris Hager: Thank you for your tears. Thank you for sharing that. Incredible. And just beautiful things come from that. And then everybody else, even if it doesn't happen in that first circle or session, at some point, the wall comes tumbling down and they just get that release.
Megan Imbert: Yeah,
Chris Hager: I can express. So it's been [00:23:00] amazing to witness.
Megan Imbert: So, when we think about day to day life and the gifts that you have. And as I'm connecting with mine, I think similarly, we really, really see hearts, we see souls, we see people the struggle. One thing that I've been toggling with is recognizing and I'm curious your approach here when you know someone's pain or you might know parts of their story and realizing, , maybe they haven't dealt with the grief or they haven't dealt with the shame. When is a reflection okay, and asking if they're open to receiving, what you feel for them or not. How do you approach that in day to day life? Because naturally, you want to be helpful to people, At the same time, folks need to be ready for embarking on that journey. And I feel like for me, it's respecting everybody in their place and their stage of their process.
Megan Imbert: And , sometimes it's really hard when you can see, , when you suppress and , That causes illness. It causes sickness. It causes these things that if you're not dealing with, and in my [00:24:00] mind, I'm like, some of this could be preventable if we lean in, but I'm realizing Megan, you can't help and save everyone. how do you move in the world with that gift to be able to help and then toggling with that? Is this, is this welcomed here when you feel everyone so deeply, It's hard to ignore and it's the stranger on the street.
Megan Imbert: It's it's whomever
Chris Hager: I think I'm going to answer this to twofold, right? Because I think there's there's two things that are coming up for me. And the 1st 1 is. Anytime you feel called to share your truth about your story and your perspective, it's always the right time. There's never a bad time if you feel called to share something that you are moving through or you are going through and because that is living authentically.
Chris Hager: And what we need to understand is that other people's resistance or feelings about our truth is not our problem to fix. And so you can free your voice, reclaim your freedom. [00:25:00] Open up that throat chakra and say, this is how I feel about it. This is what's going on now.
Chris Hager: So I start with that. The caveat is when you're feeling for other people, which is really the question, which is why I wanted to separate those things is sometimes people just want to express. And if you are incredibly empathetic, , which is a gift in and of itself. And if that gift starts to include you hearing whispers from their soul or higher self, and you really can get to the crux of something, then the simplest thing to do is , to ask.
Chris Hager: Right, which , is why , when somebody sits down with me and it's not a second, if it's a session, there's this assumption you're sitting with me and you want to hear these truths. So we're going to get into some shit lady. Let's go. All right. But if it's unsolicited, , I'm talking to a friend or my wife, and I feel this channel opened up and come through.
Chris Hager: I'll just say, Hey, are you open to some reflections? Right. , and if they say yes, then great. I go into, if they say no, [00:26:00] and it's totally, are you open to some reflections or would you just like me to hold the space for you so you can vocalize, which is particularly important when you are dealing with the feminine, right?
Chris Hager: And so I recognize this with my wife as the everyday embodiment of feminine in my life. The feminine, a lot of times wants to talk, they're not always the feminine side of us. It's not always sure what the problem is because there's so many feelings that are going through that are bringing up all these other things that the talking for the feminine is just , this is how I'm getting to the root of it.
Chris Hager: I don't need you to mansplain it, honey, , I understand that this is the problem with my mom and blah, blah, blah. And I can bet I'm still trying to work through and see what the actual question itself is. Right. Okay. So a lot of trial and error on my part has been like, oh, okay. So you just, I just need to sit here and shut up and listen.
Chris Hager: I could do that. Tell me more. Then what happens? Right? , and I'm kind of, pantomiming that a little bit, but it's true. Like an active listening. can [00:27:00] be such a huge piece of space holding and if that's what someone needs to really flush out and vet out the problem for themselves, you've done your job.
Chris Hager: And then on the flip side of that is, hey, it sounds like you're really moving through a lot. Is this the problem? Yes. Great. Are you open to some reflection that is coming through me that is in and around this? And, a lot of times people think that you're going to give an answer or something, but really what ends up happening is you go back to something that came up in their childhood . And so a lot of the times when I do sessions for people and I have an intake form, you've been through that, right? And it's these things I say, well, what's on the top of your mind? And you go through these totally other things and they somehow end up tying back into it.
Chris Hager: But it's like, we've got to go, around the back of the house to get in, to really, , understand, this is the lay of the land, , this is what we're moving through, and then by doing that, , it just makes it easier for that person to open up and receive that message, but, I think, just like we want to [00:28:00] be seen, we also want to be heard, and so, if you can really be an astute listener and sink into that moment and really, Drop in and let them know that you're curious, right?
Chris Hager: You're not waiting for your time to talk. Tell me more about that. Like, how did that make you feel? Why do you think it made you feel that way? People are like, oh man, right? This is so nice. Right. And it's, and that's a really beautiful thing because now the masculine creates that space for the feminine to come out and be embodied and articulate.
Chris Hager: And you can keep your masculine in check and the feminine knows how to do a great job of listening, right? That's one of the beauties of the feminine. And growing up with my mom, my aunt, my grandma, I always had that, now's the time that you listen. Okay. Do that. It's just really seeking to, to listen and then ask that very question.
Megan Imbert: I love the thought of when you're more curious, it keeps you in the present, , the active listening part, and I think that's so applicable to everyone. Thank you for that. [00:29:00] When was it that you really realized, your abilities to channel? , when did that start happening and What did that feel like?
Chris Hager: So. I know the exact date it was December, 10, 2000 and, , 22 and 8, 24 PM as a matter of fact, and my wife and I were going through a lot. I had, two years ago, December 6, 2020. So December is a heavy month to move things in my household. Apparently, , I told her that I had been unfaithful for a number of years.
Chris Hager: We were moving through that, deciding whether or not we were going to be together or not. She had taken a trip with a friend of hers and through some So miscommunication, which I realized was so divinely perfect. We were just in the thralls of this heated like back and forth about, opening up our marriage or not opening our marriage and like why it would be beneficial.
Chris Hager: And so I had this really like raw, vulnerable [00:30:00] because she had an experience with her friend and another guy. And I was sitting with that. And even though I had said I was okay with it, it didn't line up with how I said it was okay. , and it was like, well, it's too late now. Like that's happened.
Chris Hager: And so I just felt very wrong. And so when she came back, she came back Friday night, I remember it was like about eight 30, nine o'clock at night, kids were in bed, I've been watching them all week and sat and talked for like three hours. And she said, do you feel better? And I said, no, I, there's more, but I, yes, but no, right.
Chris Hager: There's more. The next day we took the kids to my mom's house. We had a little lunch date and we went back to the house and we again, started talking about 430 until about 8, 8, 15. And during this conversation, , I got the nod, it was like the first, maybe not the first time, but it was one of the more clear times that I can recall of hearing something say, she said, are you okay?
Chris Hager: I said, yeah, I'll be fine. And the voice said, yeah, but you're not fine. You will be fine. If you keep talking, like, [00:31:00] go. And I was like, ah, what else is there to talk about? Well, you're talking about logistically. I sent you this text and then this happened and then you took this long. But why are you talking about how you feel?
Chris Hager: How did it make you feel? That's your truth. And so the minute I got that advice, it was like, I felt like this when I saw that, and then you sent me this picture of you here. And then all of a sudden, this weight was coming off my shoulders more and more, I was like, Oh, this feels, this feels really good.
Chris Hager: I'm not trying to , hold her to this one thing or trap her or anything. I'm just talking about me. And then she started opening up. Well, this is how I felt. And I was like, Whoa, what's happening? And so this back and forth happened. And, and then all of a sudden she's like, how do you feel?
Chris Hager: And I said, I feel great. And she said, yeah, I said, yeah, I love you. She said, all right. And I laid back down on her couch and I remember, I felt a pop at the top of my head, what I would imagine if a champagne bottle could speak and you shake it up and you go like that,
Megan Imbert: like your, like your crown chakra,
Chris Hager: like the crown chakra just pop.
Megan Imbert: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Hager: And all of a sudden, all this like feelings and [00:32:00] emotions came up. And I saw Me being bullied in high school, , sexual abuse as a child, all these teachers making fun of me, all things I had so much guilt and shame with, half of which I'll tell you I didn't even remember, to be honest, and I was watching it, and it was like watching it on a TV screen, and I was like, oh, that's so sad for that guy, and I was the guy, but completely not attached.
Chris Hager: And then all of a sudden, I just felt empty in the most beautiful way, right? Like the hollow bone. And I heard these voices come in and they said, Oh my God, welcome. We're so excited. We've been waiting for this day. You've done the work. We're here. So many amazing things are going to happen. And I just laid there.
Chris Hager: I just found her the smile on my face like right now and my wife, who's so tuned into me. My little pixie. says, what's going on over there? Where are you?
Chris Hager: And I said, well, I said, I, you know, my head right away. I'm like, do I tell her that I'm hearing voices? And they're like, yeah, you have to, you have to speak the truth.
Chris Hager: So I said, I'm [00:33:00] hearing these voices. They say that they're benevolent and that they're here to help. And it's all these beautiful things. And yeah, I just, they seem excited. I'm really excited. That's why I'm so happy. And she doesn't say this out loud, but this was our experience is I heard her thoughts and she said, Oh, my God, he's losing his mind.
Chris Hager: He's finally done too many of the drugs, too much medicine. If you've done too much of it, it's no longer medicine. There's a problem. And I responded to her and I said, I know you think I've done too much medicine, too many drugs. But this is not the case. Like I feel amazing and we haven't done anything in, a few hours and I feel this tapped in and wonderful.
Chris Hager: And then she thought to herself, wait, I don't think I said that out loud. And I all of a sudden recognized, well, you didn't say that out loud. I'm reading your mind. I can read your thoughts right now. And she, for the next two and a half hours, Megan, I was answering questions that she was thinking to the point where she was like, [00:34:00] if this is real, squeeze my foot and I would squeeze her foot, no, my other foot.
Chris Hager: And I would squeeze her other foot. Now hand me that water. No, I mean, you're a water and she finally, she was like, okay, okay, I need some privacy. Can you get out of there? And I was like, I don't know how to control this. So it was very invasive for her when it first happened for about two weeks, but that's when it cracked open.
Chris Hager: It was that loud and not poignant. And they were talking to me as I was going to bed, I'd wake up to pee at three in the morning. And they talking again, I was like, guys. I need a break here, team. Like, the vessel needs to
Chris Hager: sleep.
Megan Imbert: Wow. Yeah, the experience you had with the pop, the crown chakra, that happened to me night two of Ayahuasca, so I've only done Ayahuasca once and as I was laying there, it was almost like seeing my body in three dimensions, checking every nook and cranny, are we a clear channel?
Megan Imbert: And soon enough, it was like Then I felt the energy, just my body shaking. And it's been a game changer ever since then. Even as I sit here, I full body chills. And [00:35:00] that's where I'm like, I'm starting to learn those are to me signals of when you're in your truth and, and trying to learn to play with it.
Megan Imbert: So I know I feel like I'm, I'm a rookie in all of this, but when I watch you, I'm like, Oh, wow. That's like, when you start to hear like these experiences that are similar to other people that are just so incredible and amazing. I'm also tapping in now, when I can remember to have a journal by my bed with my dreams as well, where I'm like, what, what was that about?
Megan Imbert: You talk a lot about, , the infidelity https: otter. ai
Megan Imbert: The fact that you guys worked through that, how has all of this worked help evolve your relationship ?
Chris Hager: , having these amazing friends that, I particularly I came into in 2020, people who are really like, seeing these different levels of us. And I remember we would go to these events and they'd be like, oh my God, you and pixie are like relationship goals and you're [00:36:00] so amazing. And I was like, oh my God, these like these people think I'm amazing and I'm a liar and I'm a cheat and I'm not doing this.
Chris Hager: I'm not like fully allowing myself to be seen because although they were perceptive and it was true that I was madly in love with her. And that there was so much love at the same time, there was also this deceit and it wasn't a cut or dry thing, so much of that contention had come from my lack of self love and seeking that in the arms of other people and how I viewed sex and as a, the definition of a man, this is how you get it, some of that stemming from abuse, some of that stemming just because it's fun and, , it's all of the things at the same time.
Chris Hager: Yeah. And so as I really look to, figure God, I'm coming into my truth, like end of 2018 or end of 2019. I was like, my nose was clean. I had stopped my relationships. I'd stopped going out doing a lot of the things that I was all the things that I was doing and and now I wasn't living in my truth.
Chris Hager: So I was like, how, how do I come [00:37:00] forward into my truth? And I remember talking to several friends about it. I think I got to tell my little pixie , about what I did. And they all pretty much said the same thing. Don't do it. If you're not going to do it, , again, just it's yours to hold.
Chris Hager: And I remember thinking, , I'm not looking to unburden myself. I'm looking to be liberated in life to where if my phone rings, I don't have to be worried if somebody is calling. I want to be free. I want to live in this complete transparency at home because I always felt like I had something to go somewhere where I was hiding a part of me.
Chris Hager: And so if the cost was my marriage to get that liberation and freedom, I was willing to pay that cost. Like I really had, I really, before I did it said like, okay, this could be it. Because she told me if you ever cheat on me, never tell me unless you want to break up with me, because I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive you.
Chris Hager: There's just no way. And so I went into that. Going, this might be the end [00:38:00] of my marriage. I think from looking at a historical perspective, my mom and dad broke up when I was five years old, my dad had cheated on my mom, which I didn't know about until I was 41 later. So somewhere in between that, and my youngest son was four, my oldest son was five, so I'm like right on top of this pattern.
Chris Hager: And so I tell, my wife. And she goes off to Vegas. She has some revenge, angry, , I'm going to show you who's sexy. Left me with the kids and all that for a while, which was really rough and came back about eight days later. And we started to pick through this. And I had gone from telling her about 70% of the truth in that first time because I wasn't strong enough to hold that container.
Chris Hager: Looking back on it, , I could have done it in a better way, but I did it exactly how it needed to happen, . And so it took about another year for me to come into my entire truth. And as I came [00:39:00] into my truth, she also shared with me, I wanted to play the victim and just be mad at you, but I've done some things too.
Chris Hager: And so we stepped through this whole conversation together and , it was so beautiful because she said, , I slept with one of your friends. What happened? Can you ever forgive me? And my answer was actually no, I don't feel like I need to forgive you because I just accept all of you.
Chris Hager: That's who you were at that time. That's not who you are now. And that woman I love then has brought me to this woman who I love now. Will bring me to the next woman who I'll love in the future. And you happen to be all with you, because we're all growing so much. And so, if you need me to say, I forgive you, I will, but it's, I feel like I accept you as is more powerful for me. I will say, I forgive you. And , that really started our healing journey in 2021. And then I shared that, at the retreat that, May, April she said that she's fallen back in love with me. She, you [00:40:00] know, that she trusts herself and she trusts me again. And. I made the joke, that only took three years, four months, three weeks, two days and six hours for us to get to, but what a worthy journey, to get to that space because now we're so in our truth so constantly that it feels like that I told her last night, I'm like, this telepathy is coming back between you and I think it's now going to be a two way street because we're so transparent.
Chris Hager: I love it. She'll be singing a song and , I'll walk in there and be like, I was just thinking that she's like, yeah, it just popped into my head. Or, I'll say, Hey, maybe I'm going to make the sausage with the rice and the chopped vegetables. She was like, I was literally two minutes. And so, you know, 10, 15 times a day, and we're still in awe of it, the last two, three months, , we're just having these exchanges.
Chris Hager: And so what's really happened is this reality, although it's taken time. We've worked back into not only trusting each other, which I think [00:41:00] is not even half the game. I really believe that it's trusting ourselves with the other person. That is the thing. Can I trust myself to not be made a fool again?
Chris Hager: We like to say, can I trust you? Because that sounds easier. It's easier to internalize, but can I trust my own inner knowing? Because my wife now, like she looked at me the other night. She's like, what are you thinking about? And I just started laughing because it was about her and it was about something that I wanted to bring up with her and she knew right there.
Chris Hager: Right? So her inner knowing is so strong that I'm constantly like, don't deny your inner knowing. If you feel something's up with me, it is, it doesn't necessarily mean it's about you, but , trust that. Yeah. And if I tell you, no, maybe just take that as I'm not ready to share it yet. And not as I'm lying to you.
Chris Hager: And so we've learned how to hold the space of communication and go back and forth. And, what I was telling a friend of mine, I said, we're going to be together. It'll be 20 years, July 5th of this year. We've been married for 15 of those. There's been a long standing, beautiful [00:42:00] relationship that has been fraught with a lot of getting in the trenches together and learning to create space for one another, for ourselves, for the kids, like, you know, it's so important for, I told her last year, I said, you need to go on a trip with your girls, like, go do something, go get lost in a city and eat great food and have fun, and she did, and it got extended because of the weather and all this stuff, and then she was gone for 12 days, and she came back, oh my God, she was so happy, she said, wow,
Chris Hager: thank you, I feel revitalized and amazing, I was like, yes! Awesome. I'm so happy to hear that.
Megan Imbert: The key to a good relationship, read your partner's mind as easy and as complex as that. It's so incredible though, but it shows when you're in tune and the inspiring piece of all of this is that when you go through some of the hardship that you kept that willingness and open communication, both of you taking accountability as well, I think there's that piece of responsibility that comes.
Megan Imbert: And one thing that you said that I think is incredibly profound [00:43:00] and friends of mine that have had similar situations. Where there might be lying or betrayal when they feel like their partner has betrayed them, , but sharing the full story all at once when it's not really that cut and dry when they have to deal with themselves first.
Megan Imbert: So that's the piece I think often people miss a lot of the time is yes, there's this external betrayal but there's an internal one that happened that's rooted in something so much deeper as you mentioned like it could have been sexual trauma as a kid, it could have been all of these other things that relationship with self, it has to be solid before it's ever going to be good with anyone else, which I know is pretty basic.
Megan Imbert: But what you said there was so profound, because I've thought about that where you might get partial truths from someone, And then maybe as they process more, they get more courageous than they'll share. So I think if you're in those situations, having that willingness of , standing with this person and seeing all sides of them and having that grace and having that compassion, seeing the [00:44:00] humanity, unless they're completely shut off and not taking accountability.
Megan Imbert: And then it's just a, a terrible pattern. That was really inspiring to hear how you, you all went through that process to thank you for, for opening up on that. , communication so important and especially in lifestyles where, folks might be hustling around and they're raising kids and they're pulled in so many different directions and it's like, how do we get to that depth?
Megan Imbert: And her falling back in love with you is really beautiful . I was such a pain in the ass kid, like 13 or 14. I'm, I'm telling my parents like, well, How do you all, stay together and grow and evolve and still stay together? these are the questions I'm asking as a young kid.
Megan Imbert: And that's great. I mean, never been married, but at the same time, I'm thankful that I've always kept that very close to my heart of that growth and that evolvement and knowing the type of relationship and how you show up for one another is so, so important.
Megan Imbert: I mean, [00:45:00] primarily, it's , how are we showing up for ourselves?
Chris Hager: Oh, wow. You, you, you literally talk about telepathy. Am I stealing your thought? No. Look, it's not stealing it. This, this is talks about telepathy is about being in sync with somebody. Right. And realizing that there's a collective consciousness that we're all pulling from.
Chris Hager: And sometimes you pull your perception because you're stuck down here. And other times you can see it from, as you said, humanity's point of view. Right. And I think what's interesting about communication is we tend to think of communication as with another person, and there's multiple people inside of here.
Chris Hager: I've got to be able to bring the truth out of them. Right? So I can, as the observer, right? Because I'm not Chris Hager, right? I'm observing his life and I'm watching all the crazy things happen. And when he has some crazy thoughts, I'm like, that's wild. But the minute, if I go, Oh, that's me, I am that person, right?
Chris Hager: I [00:46:00] lose a bit of that ability to have a beautiful sense of separation and appreciate everything that's going on around me. And so when we can get honest with ourselves and communicate to that, which is what I think the power of journaling really is, is when I really doubled down on my focused effort to journal and like every day was like truth bomb. Here it is. You're not seeing it or this is what it is. Or, I look back now because my journal will bring up, it's in in an app that I use, but it'll bring up and say, A year ago, two years ago, three years ago. And I read some of those things and I'm like, oh my God. Like my, my psyche was.
Chris Hager: My soul was like trying to tell me and I missed it. I missed it. Like with the, the overdose, the ketamine overdose, the intramuscular ketamine, I was like, I was for like months, I was saying it, that there was a problem here. I need to look at this. I need to be more aware and I need help. And I couldn't honestly face that to [00:47:00] where I realized that I was having a problem and that I needed help and that I was depressed and I was really in the middle of all this stuff.
Chris Hager: And because when I looked in the mirror, what is my mask? Hey, . I posted this picture on my Instagram. And it was me with my whole family with the big hat on my beard, , and I'm looking fit because I've been in the sun and that's my 45th birthday. And I just have this big smile on my face with my sexy wife, my beautiful kids, and this beautiful place in Palm Springs.
Chris Hager: And as I look at that picture, it's like the saddest version of myself that I've ever seen, but I'm wearing this big smile and I died three days after that photo was taken. That's the piece when we don't really acknowledge because we start to try to do something for everybody else.
Chris Hager: We, we try to hold up the family. or hold up the expectations of the family and our friends and our, , bosses or partners or spouses, whatever it is, and we don't ask for help because we're [00:48:00] afraid about how that's going to be received and how we're going to be perceived in that. And, it's a stark reality that people who take their lives from depression or whether that's their suicide or they put themselves in jeopardy, drugs or whatever it might be alcoholism is that , it's not the person a lot of times it's like this and that you would be concerned with. It's fucking Robin Williams, man. You know what I mean? Like, look at that guy. When was he not acting? And he was never not acting as it turns out because he was struggling with those things. And, it's just so powerful, , to go back to the question that you had earlier about , your gifts and this level of empathy is sometimes you'll see that person that says, Oh, everything's great.
Chris Hager: And you're like, no, it's not right. , and that's about you listening to your intuition in that moment. Hey, you can share with me, I don't have a reflection for you, but I'm happy to sit here and hold the space because I can tell that you're not all right. And , we deny that part of [00:49:00] ourselves because as a kid, , your parents come home and you're like, mom, what's wrong?
Chris Hager: I'm like, nothing. I'm fine. Everything's good because oh, I got to hold it up for you. And you're like, well, I was happy a minute here to go. You walked in and now I'm sad. Maybe. I guess I'm wrong. Cause why would adults lie to me? Why would my mom tell me that she's fine? And she's not there's something wrong with me. We get these stories that are layered onto us. And now we've got to work backwards from that to try to get to a better place. That's unpacking of trauma. And look, I, I think it all happens for a reason. And yet, let's bring that into awareness about how empathetic most of us really are, especially as Children, like we just were keyed into things because we understand frequency before we can speak feel into things and communicate in very different ways. So,
Megan Imbert: so with the ketamine overdose, how long do you feel like you were in a situation and did it suddenly get out of control or what happened there?
Chris Hager: It started out, my relationship with Ketamine was beautiful. I would do it like once every two or three months. I would go deep into these places [00:50:00] and have these amazing journeys and I was like traveling and, I was a guy that was like, You're going to do, three grams of mushrooms.
Chris Hager: Well, I'll do five or six. I had this weird badge, right? A lot like the Irish and be like, you're going to have five drinks. I'll have nine. Okay. It's a weird badge of honor to carry, but I took part of that with me into my exploration psychedelic space. And so, , that really started in the end of 2020.
Chris Hager: I was dabbling. It also happened to be when I left my very high paying gig and all of a sudden I wasn't having, the same amount of income that was coming in. And then two years later, three years later, it's like, Oh, things are getting real tight. And my identity as a provider started to shrink.
Chris Hager: And I didn't know how to communicate maybe it might be the scale back here. Maybe the kids shifted this and that, that, that, right. And so I just had all this pressure. And then what was, the first year I was doing it was once every two or three months was all of a sudden every, meditation Mondays, we would call it.
Chris Hager: [00:51:00] And then it was, we should do some on Friday to watch a really powerful, , movie on Gaia or something would drop into the movie. And again, nothing wrong with it. Just yeah. I see how it all started sacking up to where it was like every single day, , for about 13 months straight. , I track every single red cent I spent on this and in 13 months it was 31, 700.
Chris Hager: Right? Like that's, that's a car, right? I wonder where, this money meant with, like, I spent it, a lot of times it was just like, wow, like, that's a lot of, that's a lot of money, right? That's a lot to go through and it just became, instead of this experience, it became a coping mechanism because when I didn't want to think about, , work or the car payment or grocery bills or how we're going to pay our credit cards back, it was, Well, here's a way if I can, I can get out of it for at least 45 minutes to an hour here and I'll enjoy this and this will be my space and then I got into intermuscular ketamine [00:52:00] because a friend was telling me about that and I was like, Oh, like, well, I'll try that.
Chris Hager: And then that's when I started injecting myself in the arm with intermuscular ketamine. Very little research I'm not a doctor. I'm not a practitioner. I'm not going to sit here and tell you what's right for you or wrong for you. And yet, when I did two, ccs of in a muscular ketamine in my arm, and it had been started with a half and three quarters and then one, and then two or three months later, I was so comfortable with it that I was just, like, all right, here we go again.
Chris Hager: And what happened is is ketamine basically is like an anesthetic. It disconnects you from your body. You completely disassociate, which is what allows you to have these beautiful experiences if you're doing it in a safe environment with somebody that you trust and you've had some coaching on walking through those things because,, Please don't do as I did, right?
Chris Hager: It was a, a really incredible experience because the world just constricted all around me. And I felt like I was in this like vacuum bag, like [00:53:00] every cell of my body getting closer and closer. But my wife's experience was he's not breathing. He's turning blue. He's spitting up and, and having convulsions and seizures.
Chris Hager: And she's sitting there yelling at me to breathe with 9 1 1 dial, but not pressed because the kids are there. She's worried that if she calls them CPS is gonna come, they're gonna take our children away, that we're gonna not be able to see them. But if she doesn't call 'em, and I died and she's the wife that waited too long.
Chris Hager: So like I put her through this other. thing. And again, it couldn't have happened any other way, right? I'm so grateful of how it happened. I wouldn't change anything. And yet at the same time, I had to come out of that and step into, Hey, I apologize. This is another trauma now that we're going to have to work through.
Chris Hager: And going to therapy for that and unpacking what I experienced, which is a whole other thing. My experience inside of that bubble was [00:54:00] beautiful. And so I come out and my wife is looking at me and she's, I can tell she's mad and she's like, are you okay?
Chris Hager: And I'm like, yeah, she's like, good, because now I'm going to fucking kill you. Do you understand what you just did to me? And I'm like, no, because I just talked to God. Everything is great. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so it was like, really to get into facing that was when I said. I came out of that experience and again, I was still riding high.
Chris Hager: So I didn't think that a problem, but a week later I thought, Oh, I missed my opportunity. I should have died because I've got 4 million in life insurance. We have all , these money issues that would have wiped out the money issues. , we were in an open relationship at the time. My wife was dating this amazing guy.
Chris Hager: I was great friends with and he was amazing with my kids. I'm like, he was meant to step in and I was meant to die to give this money and the minute I had that thought, I said, Oh my God, that's, that's a suicidal ideation. That's you glorifying what that should have been and wishing that it happened this way.[00:55:00]
Chris Hager: And the minute that happened, , I like went white because up until that point, I'd never had a, uh, yeah. Other than my little, , emo phase around, 15, 16 and be like, , no one cares, but I'm missing my other than that very normal part of everyone's childhood that they probably go to.
Chris Hager: I've never wished I was not on this planet and so for me , to get into that, I, I looked at my wife, I need, I need help and I need to go somewhere and can you help me find a rehab center and let's call our therapist and , , my family ended up being very supportive and it was hard for them to step through that. And it also came on the heels of me, like, I can channel when I'm seeing this and that. And so, the timeline of all these things was a lot for my family to really understand and cope with because they're not so much in that world. They're starting to be more open to it now, but it was an intense time period for anybody who was, , in my inner circle to really be pulled through all of it.
Megan Imbert: How long ago was that?
Chris Hager: That was, [00:56:00] April 3rd, 2023 is when I had the overdose. And then 14 days later, I was in rehab until, Father's Day, May 15th.
Megan Imbert: Thank you for sharing all of that. Wow. We've talked about a lot of things today. I feel like I could talk to you for hours. Hours and hours and hours. You're such a light, too. Is there anything we didn't touch on today? I mean, there's so many things. You have so much wisdom. I don't know what we didn't touch on. There's a lot to unpack for this. I love this podcast because it's just an adventure of a conversation. And It's so beautiful, especially when people really open up about the tough stuff, because, someone can listen to it privately, and nobody needs to know what they're listening to or why, and in such a short period of time, you know, there's listeners now in like over 45 countries, which is so badass I wanted to share that piece because Your voice is going to have a ripple and it's going to continue to have a [00:57:00] ripple.
Chris Hager: think, just what an honor it's been to, to be on the podcast and to be able to articulate, right.
Chris Hager: Cause I think a lot of times when we see people that we, Identify with in some way, or they call to us, they have that frequency that we go, Oh, my God, if I could just be, if I could have some of what she has or what he has, my life would be so much better. And we forget that there's been a journey to get there.
Chris Hager: And I really try to be very quick with my vulnerability about when I had these gifts, it didn't just fix everything and my life wasn't great after and I really had to get through the mud with all this stuff and get in there and get dirty And it came as a byproduct of my infidelity and moving through all of these things.
Chris Hager: And yet at the end of it, was this beautiful gift of like, you did it. You came into your honesty here. It was in some way a part of the reward. It was, you cleared enough karma to live this part of your dharma. To be free and [00:58:00] to open up into this. So here's the reward. And you're not done because there's more, right?
Chris Hager: And there's going to be more after that and hopefully change the perspective and the narrative around when things happen that are really tough for us to get into that, even though it's, it's a gift and it might be wrapped with barbed wire and sandpaper and glass. And it's like, what am I opening?
Chris Hager: Right? This beautiful thing comes from that experience of opening that gift. And those things end up being like these beautiful catalysts for our lives to change in some very meaningful way. And the more we all share those things, I think the more it humanizes us, right? Because I don't want people to look up to me I would love for them to look to me for things, but there's no place to go but down when you're on a pedestal. And so I'm a human, I've made mistakes. Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future, as they say. And it's really important that we share those things and really start to welcome that part into our community so other people [00:59:00] have the courage to do the same thing.
Megan Imbert: Love this. Chris Hager, the incredible human soul, energy frequency, cannot be boxed in, I appreciate you so much and I'm so grateful that you're in my orbit and, it's been so fun getting to know you and learn more about your life experiences and , I'm really pumped to see what comes this next year too all the insights you have. So this has been amazing. Thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate it.
Chris Hager: Likewise. Looking forward to seeing you next time and thank you for having me on the show.