It's hard not to think the UK is on fire. There's anger everywhere. Is it? People are extremely angry. A dangerous level of anger in your view? Yeah, seething with anger. None of the conditions of what happened last summer have gone away. Violence might not happen, but the absence of riots shouldn't be anybody's test for cohesion
in our country. Sometimes all we need to do is sit down with these people, meet each other, and you'll discover that the other side aren't necessarily the monsters which you think they are. Hello and welcome to the forecast Are anti migrant protests around the country about to explode into another summer of riots? A year ago, towns across Britain were in flames as anti immigration protests turned violent.
They were prompted by the mass stabbing of girls as a dance class in Southport, but fuelled by online misinformation and anti Muslim rhetoric. It was the largest instance of social unrest in England for more than a decade and there are fears that this summer could see a repeat. Already there's been a string of protests around hotels housing asylum seekers, the Police Federation called recent unrest
in Epping a signal flare. So with the number of migrants crossing the Channel in small boats actually up, and social media, not to mention certain MPs pumping out inflammatory comments, is a summer marked by more violence inevitable? And how did the police, the politicians and the protesters them styles distinguish between the genuine concerns of dispossessed communities and the gratuitous violence of racists
and the far right? To discuss this I'm joined by the academic doctor Lisa McKenzie, who writes primarily about working class communities and class inequality. Sundar Katwala, the director of the think tank British Future, which focuses on diversity and social inclusion, and Adam Kelwick, imam of EU KS oldest mosque in Liverpool, who came to prominence during last year's riots with his attempts at dialogue with protesters. Thank you, all of you, for
joining us today. Can I begin by asking you, if you look at what we've been looking at, at Epping in other places across the country, it's hard not to think the UK is on fire. There's anger everywhere, Is it? Yeah, I think there is. I'll be honest, I'm not sure that we're in for a summer of riots. I'm not sure about that. But I do know that there's been a growing anger that is inescapable. You know what isn't inescapable for me? Because I live in a working class community.
I work in working class communities and people are extremely angry. But it's a number of things. It's not just one thing, it's lots of things. It's things not working properly. It's the cost of living crisis. You know, everybody's complaining that every that food is going up day by day. And then of course, you know, there's this constant news cycle about people coming in from different countries, you know, are they getting this or are they getting that?
And there is a drip feed going on. So people are extremely angry. A dangerous level of anger in your view? Yeah, I, I would, I would say ordinary people that that a few years ago didn't even know any of this existed are now talking about it. And people who a few years ago did know it existed are now seething with anger. So yeah, I I would say that this is where we are. Senator Cutwaller, I'm in a country, or at least parts of it, seething with anger.
I think riots and violence certainly aren't inevitable, but they're but they're possible. I think we need vigilance without alarmism. That can be a difficult balance to strike. None of the conditions of what happened last summer have gone away in terms of the tinderbox on social media, if there is a shocking event, if there were rumours of something that's happened in terms of the long
term underlying causes. So we we haven't dealt with the long term causes, we haven't dealt with some of the sharp short term pressures. But you know, violence might not happen. But the absence of riots shouldn't be anybody's test for cohesion in our country. You were in the middle of the actual violence and rioting of last year. Where do you think we are right now? So I I like to always be optimistic, but at the same time that has to be balanced with
some realism. And unfortunately, all the ingredients which were there last year are also still here this year. I think you know, the, the, the firewood, which are these small numbers of these very ideologically driven people, whether that's racism, anti immigrant hatred, anti Muslim hatred, they are there. The fuel is continuously being poured maybe even more intensely now than last year by the media, whether that's the mainstream media or whether it's online channels and accounts.
And unfortunately, if there was to be a spark, I think there is a very real danger that we could find ourselves in a similar situation to last year. OK. You both touch on this idea of the ingredients are there. I don't know whether you agree about what those ingredients are. I'm assuming you'd say they're not ideologically driven. Not well. There are ideologically driven people who are making hay out of these situations. Of course there are on the far
right and on the left as well. That is happening. But then there are other ingredients. You know, there is 40 years of deindustrialisation and no economic strategy that's gonna lift the bottom up. There's poverty, there's feelings of hopelessness. You know, we've had 40 years of, of, of inequality widening and hopelessness. So don't you know, we shouldn't be not expecting. We've got hopeless people, you know, people who look out in their future and don't see
anything good happening. But it ties to this very big question, doesn't it, about what are legitimate concerns and what are legitimate ways of expressing them. I, I do find myself in, in, in agreement with you because as I said, there are a small number of these people who are pushing certain ideologies and narratives. But what happens is the vast majority of people who are dragged into these protests and these riots are, in my experience, because I've been working a lot with people who
attended the riots last year. I've been building real friendships with them. And I've found that actually the vast majority of the number of people who attend these riots and protests aren't necessarily the types who are driven by the ideologies. They're dragged into other people's narratives. And in fact, they're just genuine people who have genuine concerns. And they are worried about society. They are worried about their children.
They have lots of worries who we incidentally, as a Muslim community also share with those concerns with. Them when so much of that sorry with so much of those legitimate concerns that you both talked about seemed throughout the riots last time we look at the the hotel issue directed at immigrants directed at migrants. I think it's right to have the concept of legitimate concerns. There are people who mock that and say it's always dog whistling or it's always
pandering prejudice. But I think we forget something, which is the very concept of legitimate concerns involves a differentiation between the legitimate and the illegitimate. And that is partly about the means, which is it's peaceful voice and your right to voice, and it's not violence, intimidation and threat. And it's partly about what
you're saying as well. So if you're saying send them all back or extend that we don't just want the asylum seekers out, we want all the minorities, all the Muslims, you know, everybody out to them, that's illegitimate. And I think if you're defending the legitimate concerns, you also have to be drawing the line as to what you're not admitting.
So there are people and they they were successful in Rotherham and they were successful in Ballymena and they're who they were hoping to be successful in Epping, who are not saying let's get the council to petition the government to change the policy on the hotels. They're saying let's make it so dangerous that people flee. I mean, let's make the government the new. People no, it, no, it is.
And I think what we've got, we've come to this point where when people say there's legitimate concerns, you've got a whole group of I mean, they're calling them the lanyard class now or, you know, the the middle class left or the, you know, I call them the bourgeois left who are now sort of, you know, they're not allowing people to have legitimate concerns when you say legitimate concerns, like it's almost like you're Enoch Powell. You know, so we, we've closed
down that whole Ave. of debate and I'll tell you now that point of, you know, where perhaps five years ago people were saying, you know, perhaps illegal migration needs to be, you know, looked at now they are saying send everybody back. I think because there's a lack of trust with our government, with politicians, with the media, they're they're actually gonna deal with these legitimate concerns. So instead, you know, everybody's being 40, not power, I think. There's a problem with the
concept. Actually, it's a very distancing concept, which is. I do not share your legitimate concerns, but I respect them. It does feel quite it does. Feel quite. Far apart, but actually, you know, this government is very clear that it's that it's, it's so concerned in a way to not criticise people's right to protest asylum, hotels and so on that it risks actually not doing the other half of the argument, which is to say there's also racism and prejudice as part of this.
And we need to make that separation because we're going to listen to the mainstream argument, but we're not actually. But how do you make that distinct that? I think ultimately if you look back to last year and how intense it was, a lot of people have forgotten with time, but it was very, very intense. It wasn't just intense for the immigration centres and the mosques which were targeted, but it was also intense for
everybody in society. We saw our city centres smashed up, we saw children's services, libraries smashed up, we saw lots of towns in absolute chaos and that affects everybody and I don't think anybody in society wants to go back to where we. Were but that is actually what happens when people riot that I mean, that's that that's also the normal shape of a riot that people do smash up their own communities. There's a criminological concept for this.
It's called slow rioting. It's what happens when the state has removed themselves from your community and you, you can't get at the people or the state that's causing new problems. I mean, we were there for you. And what what Lisa, I think is rightly saying is that is that that broader oxygen, not the violence itself, but the broader oxygen is, is based on people feeling unheard. If you want to make that distinction, there are actually some really important ways to do
it. 1 is, is it peaceful? Is it violent? Is it threatening? Another really good test I think in the society we're in now is if you've got legitimate concerns, could somebody white, working class, somebody Asian, somebody back share those concerns? Or are they the concerns only of one but? Can I just ask you, you as someone you know you're in a mosque when the rioters headed towards you, are you ever in that moment thinking any of these concerns are legitimate?
So what I found on the night of the riots when people were outside our mosque is when I stepped over the police lines after we confirmed with the police that it was safe to do so, and I started speaking with the protesters. More important than speaking to them was listening to them. Then people did share some of their concerns with me. A lot of those concerns were based on on ignorance and, and and falsehoods. However I was listening.
I'll, I'll give you one example, one gentleman, probably the loudest person at the protest. I asked him, why exactly are you here at our mosque? You know, what's this got to do with anything? He said we're fed up with two tier policing. To which I said to him, well, why not take the protest to the police station then? You know, what does this have to do with us? But the point is, I think there is an argument for saying that many members of the white British working class people
need to be heard. I don't think their voices are represented. And this, this is an issue. I think they're not represented or very rarely represented properly within politics. And I don't think the politicians are listening to them. And unfortunately me and my mosque and my community have to put up with these protests and these riots when actually what they are upset with are decisions which are ultimately.
But if you're burning down or trying to burn down a hotel that's got asylum seekers and can there ever be anything other than racist? No, I mean, I'm going to be honest. No, I mean it can also, but you know, it can also be not a racist intent, but then it it does become but. We're targeting asylum people in a hotel. It's just racist, isn't it?
Yes, it yes it is. But, you know, I have spoken to people that have that have been around, sort of have been thinking about doing this sort of thing. And again, are they trying to kill the people inside or are they trying to get rid of the problem? And I think sometimes when when we've moved over that step of reasonableness and an argument and debate and we've moved into that step of civil disorder and riot, you know, things are not always as clear. And Adam is absolutely right.
The Muslim community last year had to deal with the fact that that there is no there's very little representation for all poor working class. People but but if they are targeting you, you, you take a very generous view.
Some people might say, some of the Muslim communities that I've spoken to would not take such a generous view that if a mob is headed towards you to try and throw stones or or or damage your mosque shouting things that are really offensive that are out and out racist, then that does that delegitimize anything that you may have started with the intent that you talked about? I mean, yes, I mean, of course it it does delegitimize it because you what you've done it.
Also puts people at danger. You put people. In danger, I mean. Well, I am a white working class woman. I wasn't. I wasn't called white and working class until about 2000. That was always working class and that is where that's where you know, where the problem is. About 20 to five years ago, you know, we decided that there were divisions between working class people and you know, and we've done that through box ticking and through. And so I don't want to be white
and working class. I want to be working class and I want all working class people. But the very distinction does suit some people who don't want black or brown people within the you who don't consider them the same. Yes, and that's on and that's on many different levels. You know, I'm, I'm with Adam really I, I'd like to, you know, for us all to come together, all working class people. And this is a class issue about inequality. It's under coming. I think we've got to make some
distinctions here. They're very different experiences of change in our society. I've had a positive experience of change in my society in my lifetime because I'm the child of migrants.
I did well in education. If you're, you know, there are lots of people, first, second generation British minorities, women in workplaces, people who are gay who have had a positive experience of change, they're very much more negative experience of change between the cities and the townspeople feel unheard in the townspeople feel unheard from working class backgrounds. People who haven't, you know, got many degrees feel, feel unheard.
That is very different from the people who are trying to get all the Muslims and all the asylum seekers out there. About one in 50 people in our country were elated by the violence, not because they fear a civil war, but because they're rather hoping for one. So I think, I think policing and telling that group what is unacceptable and then cutting them off from maybe 1/4 of society, 1/3 of society, 40% of
society. They've got things to say in the political system about immigration, asylum, integration. That's a crucial distinction to make. Otherwise, this language about legitimate concerns doesn't cut out the racism, the violence, the. Threat. So, so, so in, in Liverpool we actually saw a manifestation of what what you've just described when it was the LFC parade through the city centre, there was somebody who rammed into a
crowd full of people. I was actually at the parade, I left before the incident itself and I was looking online because unfortunately, because of the way things work, people will go straight to X before they go to any legitimate or kind of
credible source of information. And they'll see they want to know right then, right now what's happening as happened in Southport. And what I was seeing was unfortunately, people who were not bothered at all about the the people who were injured in the attack all they wanted. And it's like they were desperate for the driver of the car to be either an immigrant or an asylum seeker or a Muslim.
And when it when it occurred later on that he wasn't, it was almost as if they were disappointed because they couldn't push for this narrative to be enforced and and this this racist agenda, if you like. Yeah. I mean, what I, I'd also say is you're sort of talking about the police or the government telling somebody, you know, that this is unacceptable, but who is telling the police and who is telling the government that what they are doing is unacceptable as
well? Because I think that's where we've got a problem, is this idea that, you know, some people are legitimately telling us what's acceptable and what isn't and yet nobody is holding the people to account that's making the decisions that is causing these divisions, the hotels since. They can.
Stand back, I think. They can look at people protesting and fighting outside asylum seeker hotels and say this is nothing to do. With us and they can put lots of memes about poor white working class people all over social media. You know, there, there. I, I remember last year at Southport, I remember people laughing openly, taking photographs of, of the television and saying, look at the state of these people's teeth. You know, that is what happens
when there are no dentists. That's what happens when people's health has deteriorated over generations. They look ill. But the difficulty? Is something positive about what the police were doing in Epping, which became the epicentre? There was a, you know, a sexual assault, a charge or a serious sexual assault. There was protests, there was concern.
They did a really good job, I think, of saying what you were allowed to do if you're a anti hotel protester, if you're a left wing protester and what you weren't allowed to do. And they said no one's going to wear any, no one's going to have face masks on when they're making their points. If you do that, then you can be tough on disorder, but that's different from being tough on the causes.
But in, in, in a way, the hotels and the issue about the safety of women and children, which is what some people are saying this is about it. It's quite interesting, isn't it? You know, it's being framed as, as you wrote yourself, you know hundreds of unknown unvetted single men being housed in their communities. I suppose women and girls are surrounded by unvetted unknown men. We know the dangers that men
pose to women. Is it legitimate to target one particular group of men in an asylum seekers hotel? I think now, I think that now it has become legitimate because, you know, for many, many years people have been complaining about the government's dispersal programme. It's been going, this has been happening in a long time, you know, refugees and asylum seekers who are poor themselves and are coming from all over the world with different
backgrounds. They've been put into the poorest communities now for at least 25 years. I mean. That is the fact that. There are. More asylum seekers and refugees dispersed to poorer parts. Yeah, and I've made this all. I mean, it's only very recently that different governments have decided to put more resources into those areas. At one point, there was no extra resources and the whole community had to share the little that they got.
That was legitimate concern. But the but to the to the very specific point about we know the danger that men pose to to women and girls. You know, Wayne Cousins was was vetted and was given enough authority to have a police uniform to go out and and and and kill and rape. Is it legitimate in say in your, in your view, Adam, to use that to focus it in as the reason for what is happening around the hotels? Is it a legitimate concern or is
it being used as? I think the big mistake where we're all making here is we're referring to groups of people and we're stripping them of their humanity. And I think all sides are guilty by the way we're stripping them of their humanity. So whether that's the white British working class or whether that's the far right or whether that's asylum seekers, don't forget there are real people behind these groups which we have in our in our heads.
And sometimes all we need to do is sit down with these people, meet each other, learn about each other, and you'll discover that the other side aren't necessarily the monsters which you think they are. And as I said, and this applies to all sides, because on the night of the riots in Liverpool, many people in the Muslim community were saying to me, no, why are you cooking food for these people? You can't speak to these people. They want to kill you.
They want to burn your Moss down and they want to send all Muslims out of the country. And I was like, no, they're, they're, they're people. And if we're from a religious or a spiritual perspective, we have to see the other as a soul. And what I have been doing since last year's riots is I've been sitting down building friendships with some of the heavyweights who were at the Save Our Children protest, for example. And I've been allowing them to see who I and my community are as people.
And likewise we've been meeting with them. We've been taking young people to gyms who are running different parts of the city where they'd never usually be. We've been on walks into the Welsh countryside together. And guess what? Everybody realizes that they're human beings. We have families who we care for. We all suffer from the cost of
living crisis. We all get bills from the tax man which we don't like, and all of these problems which are pushed out there in these narratives, they're problems which affect us as well, believe it or not. And so why don't we do something radical? Why don't we start working together to solve these issues? Because we have volunteers in our community. You obviously have a lot of very passionate people about these issues. Why don't we come together and solve? Them gone beyond doing this sort
of thing on the ground. I think, I think you have to do more of that, not less of it. And there's a hope and there's a catharsis if you felt unheard in being unheard. And obviously if you're a, if you're a person of faith, then you want to save every soul. But I think what's powerful about what Adam's saying is, you know, there's a principle that you take in good faith, everything said in good faith. And if something isn't said in good faith, you try and engage
with it as if it was. And then there is going to be. Just one little point, it's it's not about saving souls, it's about seeing the other person as a human. So even if you don't agree on on your religious views and beliefs, you at least understand they're a human and and deserve to be treated with dignity and. Respect change. What you would say that's structural? In A and then The thing is, is we can all see each other as human. And then what?
Because there is a point that we've got to hold the people who are making the decisions where there is a group of people at the bottom who are, you know, working class people are not just white, working class people are Muslim, working class people are black. You know, there are groups of people in this country who are making decisions where those people's lives are now in decline and have been for a long time. So we have to make so, so it's,
I kind of agree with you. It's really lovely for us to be human and think about all of it. But how do we make sure that our kids end up with a decent job and somewhere to. I I agree with you, but I don't think the police to protest that is outside the mosque or outside. The. Hotel. And no, neither do and. There's a key distinction that comes out of that, I think, which is that I can, I can talk you out of your fear or prejudice or hatred of the
other. If you don't know that person, I can't talk you out of your sense that there aren't fair chances for you and your kids and other people's kids. I need action and work there. But it's not. So the socio economic factors and the cultural identity factors, they, they overlap. The left tends to think it's all just economics. You know, if we built enough hospitals with young enough schools, we wouldn't have that.
It's not true. You know, fear and hatred of Muslims goes all the way up and all the way down. But so so it's separate, creating out in a way the concerns about opportunities, chance and discrimination from the fear of. The other, the thing that's interesting about the current moment we appear to be in, when we were in Middlesbrough, for example, white working class people were saying they had real concerns about the state of
their housing. They have concerns about poverty, their concerns about the cost of living. But when you go round the corner to the houses of people whose windows were smashed in, who were immigrants, their concerns are exactly the same. Yeah. But it's not seeing that. Yeah. And how, how do you do that structurally? How do you do that through government? Because reaching out may not be enough. I'm, I'm a, I'm a firm believer in, in little things with big
intentions having big impact. And so to, I'll give you one example. We at the Light Foundation, we had an event, this is years before the, the, the riots and we were talking about Islamic Sharia, which so many people online have so much to say about.
So we had this event and members of far right groups, Football Lads Alliance, EDL, when it was a thing back in the day, they turned up and one particular gentleman came in with a T-shirt with a picture of Enoch Powell on it saying Enoch was right. He, he, at the beginning of, of our event, he was shouting that there's only one law in this country and it's Christian law.
And then after the, the, the kind of tensions settled, we had our discussion, we listened to each other and then we had food afterwards. And he came up to me and he said, you know what, I wish all Muslims were like you. And I explained to him, well, actually a lot of them, the vast majority of them are like me. And we took him out for a meal after this, after the event, he came for a kebab with us. Then we went to a dessert parlour. We were talking, he was sharing his life story.
If you'd have walked into that dessert parlour, you would have thought this guy was one of our close friends. He started crying. He started crying tears after he he said to us, nobody has ever treated me this kindly all my life. And I was shocked. We bought the guy a kebab and he broke down in tears. And one thing I learnt from that, and it's just been confirmed time after time after time, is the people who manifest the most hatred are usually upset with themselves more than
anybody else. And sometimes all you need you can talk about changing government. Such as? I. Don't. Just one last point. You can talk about changing government structures. I'm telling you, just a hug or a smile. Yeah, or a nice gesture. You can call me wishy Washy. We stopped the riots in Liverpool last year. It worked. Everybody was against me, even many people within the house. When you have hundreds of people heading. I agree most that would. Break how? Burn down houses?
That's not going to work, is it? No, you know what? Take away. So if we start to think about how angry should somebody be? So the fact that someone's lives are over generations have declined and declined and this is all of us. This is not white working class. This is all of us. That your kids now have got absolutely no chance of probably even renting anywhere to live. There is a righteous anger there and you should be angry about that because. They're and our community can be
angry together with. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying, all of us. Very often those communities are not angry together, are they? And these? Right, I don't know, I think if. That's not helping. What are they? I don't know. Let's speak out to. Let's speak out to people and say how who is angry that their kids are no longer going to probably be able to even rent a house? Everybody, everybody's angry about that. So I think that's a righteous anger.
I think, I think it's interesting your example of the Enoch was right. I mean, my father comes to Britain the week after that speech by Enoch Powell. What what that speech is saying is saying, well, he should stay in Gujarat or he should go back. But what it's really saying is Sundercat Waller should never be born in Britain because people like Sundercat Waller or Kenny Baden or Co, anyone else, they will never be us. They will always be them and us.
And I think we have this, them and us debate. They are a threat to us, they will never be us. They are taking our stuff and the left tends to come back with but they are good for us. You don't realise it's all going to go well. The question is how do people become US? And that's where I think there is hope in this catharsis, this ability to feel.
We're running out of time and I just want to to ask you, Lisa, you have a Labour government at the moment, a very, very different Labour government, they would say, much more representative of, of, of the wider country, they would say. Angela Rayner understands what it's like to grow up on benefits. Bridget Phillipson says her, you know, determination to to talk about child poverty is because of what she experienced growing up. What difference will any of that make?
And if it's not making a difference, why do you think it's not? They're talking about £1.5 billion to regenerate neighborhoods, 39 billion for new affordable homes. And we know housing is an issue across the board. Yeah. I mean, we've, this is 40 years in the making. This is not, this is not one year from Southport.
Last year, you know, when I talk about the, when people look like the miners strike, the miners strike was one year, but actually the decline of those communities has been 40 years and things aren't going to open happen overnight. But people do need some hope. So we do need that, that there's got to be hope for people. I'm not, I don't even know how that happens, that I'm living in a part of the country which is Nottinghamshire. I come from Ashfield, where
people are absolutely hopeless. You know, they, they, they're cynical, they're hopeless, they're anger. I don't know anymore what what we can do about that. I mean, Andy MacDonald, the MP for Middlesbrough, told us that you can have all those justified grievances, particularly in parts of the country that where we know poverty has really got a grip, that that those years of underinvestment, but that at the moment immigration is being seen as the one single reason that
that, yeah, is too easy. Yeah, I think when it when it comes to political parties and politicians, I think we need to be careful not not to be dragged into their into their narratives. Just as an example, I had a close meet in a private meeting with the chair of a particular party, which is very anti immigration. And this was in a particular part of of the country. And he said to me when he was canvassing for voters, the number one concern which was being raised time and time again
was immigration. And I asked him, is that the same for you and your party? He said, actually it's probably #3 it's still important to us, but it's #3 but that is not reflected in their campaigns. It's not reflected in what they say they're going to do for people. Very briefly, there's a. Danger. Both. Just for the people to bring it to an end. Fortunately, what's happened is people has wrapped up immigration with housing, with cost of living crisis. They've wrapped it up.
It doesn't. It doesn't belong together. But because for so long now nobody's been tackling any of those issues, people have now made their. Own. I agree it's a complete package. People have have got made their own narrative. I think one reason we have a skewed debate that's too pessimistic even in the very stretched times we're in, is that integration, when it happens, is invisible.
Where it's the social class background of the cabinet, whether it's diversity in the parliament, when it works, whether it's class mobility when it works and where it's failing, it sticks like a sort of thumb. So that, I think is why we we in a sense, talk ourselves into a doom loop when there's a lot of pressure and a lot of challenge. But we need some grounds for hope, too. Going to have to end it there, but Doctor Lisa McKenzie, Sundar Katwala and Adam Kelwick.
Kelwick, thank you very much for joining us. That is it for this episode of The FORECAST. Until next time, goodbye.