Hi team, I'm Fitz Kohler, your very noisy race announcer. Fitness pro and author from fitness.com. And welcome to the fitness show. Today, we're going into part two of my conversation with the marathon junkie, Chuck Engel, who has run five, well, he's run well over 500 marathons, but he's run 500 sub three hour marathons, which I think is just wonky. He's run marathons all over the country, all over the world. old.
He's run the big ones, the tiny ones. And he said so many interesting experiences, doing so as if you can imagine, I mean, all the travel, all the adventure, all the people he's come in contact with. So yeah, I reserved him for two hours for this interview because I just, there's so much I wanted to dig into and I could probably invite him back for another 20 hours worth of race talk. Cause he really, he's a good guy and he's got great stories to tell and a lot of interesting ideas to share.
So enjoy part two with Chuck Engel, Vice President of Marathon Guide, the Marathon Junkie. Tell us about your career. Tell us what you do. I talk to race directors 24-7 now, which is what I've done for 25 years. And I love it. It's the best job I could imagine for myself. I get to hear all the stories about runners who are unruly. I I get to see a lot of that. Talking to race directors and hearing their stories is the most rewarding thing I could possibly imagine.
I love running so much that hearing a race director share their stories about this runner, that runner, and it may sound like they're complaining, and they have every right to. Right. So that's my job. I talk to race directors. I talk to them about how we can promote their race, how we can reorganize their race, and how I can save them time through our business. And that's the rewarding part, too, is when you break down.
That's why I travel to a lot of the races is to see where race directors spend so much of their time. And if there's something I can program or something we can take from their plate or replace with a program that frees up three hours so that they can go talk to runners like I did, which is what they should be doing. Yeah, you know, what's so interesting is so many times people call me a race director and I go, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
No, what I do is way easier than being a race director. I understand how hard they're working day in and day out the whole year to make each, you know, maybe one day special. So they are, they're a special breed and yeah, they deserve more credit than, than it's funny for me to see. Yeah. It's, it's funny for me to see one person in a race of thousands get in front of a race director and argue with them about how they need, they need, they need.
And I went, I, and I do this, I do this online. I do it when I'm at a race. I look at him and go, how many people in this race do you think this race director has to be able to make this race happen? Do you think you're it? Well, I was told that I could, it's just funny how selfish people can be at races. It's hilarious to see.
So, and I love your rants. I mean, one of my favorite things about you on Facebook is you're, you're, you come back and you're pissed off about this or that and you let it rip. So what kind of things piss you off at races, whether it's the race organization or your fellow athletes or a spectator, what, what drives you mad? I think the biggest thing that drives me mad is people who want, and don't get me wrong.
I'm spoiled. I mean, I am spoiled beyond belief from, you know, start line hotel rooms to, you know, airfare to get there to private meals with the racer. I'm spoiled. So I personally can't really complain. What bothers me is when, say a race offers race insurance and that the person doesn't get race insurance, but they show up at the race and they demand a refund because they've got an injury. Oh, well, you got the insurance for five or $10. Great. So, well,
then they just sit there and stammer at the racer. I didn't get insurance. That's stupid. Well, this is why you should have bought race insurance if it was available. Or if the race director says no deferrals, no act of God. It's clearly written that there's no deferrals, there's no transfers, there's no refunds. And people inherently feel like they're special. Out of the 5,000 people running this race, they are the one person who's chosen, who's got the halo.
And they will waste 15, 20 minutes berating the race director. And then I've had race directors come up to me, some dear friend race directors come up to me. Well, they don't have to come up to me. I would just get in between them and this person and I'll say, Hey, let's walk over here so I can address your issues. And then I'll take them over there. I said, listen, this is how it is. This is what's going on. I've been, you know, DQ'd. I've run the wrong way.
I've been injured before. I said, you're making a scene here. And before you think twice about maybe getting banned from this race and other races, let's look at the grand scheme of things. Let's look at the bigger picture." You really have to put it in perspective. It's just running. I don't think running means as much to anybody as it means to me. And once they understand who I am and what I've done in running, then I think it puts a little perspective like, wow, okay.
Yeah, we see a lot of, I mean, I would say our running community is the best of the best. You know, they're always working for their own health. They're great causes. They're great communities. You know, and then there's some people that just, they, it's my day. It's about me. I'm willing to put other people at risk. I'm willing to make other people miserable for my personal success. one of my race directors who I shall not name genius, genius.
He had a slew. Well, I, you know, all race directors get complaints, right? And so he told me about this complaint he received post race. And again, the race weekend was extraordinary. Everything was fun and, and the course was perfect and the swag was great. And the entertainment was top notch and all the things. And this person had this complaint and he would respond. He would say, thank you so much. I will we'll give this the attention it deserves.
And with that, he was virtually crumbling it up and throwing it in the trash. And I just thought, genius. This man is an absolute genius. And he really is a big dog in the running industry. And it actually makes me sad when a race director says, well, I need it to be perfect. I need it to be perfect. Everyone has to go home. Well, you're catering to thousands of people. There's no way you can make 100% of them happy.
They're going to be angry about your parking, or they're going to hate the design of your shirt or the The metal metal's too big or too small, or, you know, they didn't get the right corral, whatever you can't, you, you have to go with overall safety first. Everyone had, most everyone had a good time and yeah, not have irrational expectations. But it's, it's cultural and it's almost cliche now that somebody will be upset and they're the ones that will make the biggest commotion.
Yeah. They're probably the ones who did the thing with the wrong that screened the loudest. Yes. And that's that, like we always said that one bad apple, it is cliche. One bad apple spoils the rest. I'll get online and I'll defend a race, especially if I was there, which there's been a lot of races where I've been there. I've seen what's happened.
And I'll just get online and say, listen, there was one race in particular where the race was canceled at like five and a half hours due to inclement weather moving in. And I got the fortunate or unfortunate as the case may be to go around and pick up those last few finishers still on the course. And so I gave them an option. They can finish under their own power, but I would have to take their bib number, or they could get into this nice, warm, comfortable van with blankets and water and food.
And yeah, it's a DNF, but you live to run another day. And this one woman made a scene. She's like, what, are you going to track me down? Are you going to run me over? Like, ma'am, I just, I have two choices here. Even if you take your bib and try to finish, it's under your own power, and you won't be invited back to this race ever again, and you won't get a time. And she yelled and cussed and cussed and cussed, and she finally acquiesced, gave me her bib, and she finished under her own power.
No time, and again, the race is canceled because of the inclement weather. Well, then another woman in the same race, because I was picking up 10 or 12 people, she had fallen on the course to the point where she was bleeding profusely.
And there was an ambulance that stopped her and she was argumentative with the emts argumentative with me said she didn't want to get in the ambulance she finally she too finally acquiesced and i'll get in the damn truck so she got in our truck well then she gets online and starts bashing the race yeah and then she said some guy forced me into his truck and i like somebody said hey hey, we think you were the guy. And so I got on. I said, I was the guy.
And I said, I have witnesses. And I said, listen, I just, I didn't want to be ugly, but she was ugly. And so I just, I came back at her full force. And finally, even online, she finally apologized profusely. And then even went so far, which I thought was brilliant, sent the race director an apology letter. Nice. Apologized for how she acted. She didn't mean to be so childish. And I thought, okay, that's wow.
That's, you know, First, don't act that way, but if you do mess up, and we all make mistakes, try to apologize and do what's right.
I just don't like those... I'm sure I've been there. I'm sure I've, whined or cried and i don't know you know what it's like cursing out the gate agent at the uh the gate once your plane is already taking off or like what is it gonna do it doesn't help doesn't help it's funny recently there was a race where i was down in the finish line shoot welcoming athletes as i do and some very large man came riding around a bicycle which is you know the finish
line is secure for a reason these people are on their final legs they have no ability to dodge and weave for children or grandmas or, or bicycles. And there's been quite a few times over my career where I've had to physically grab people on bikes and say, you can't, you just can't put our athletes at risk. And so this guy, holy cow, he went off, he started with you F and C word. I mean, he went straight there at the top of his lungs in front of thousands of spectators.
And I was just, you know, I was pointing, you got to get off the course. You can't move forward. He goes, well, I didn't know. I said, okay, well, I'm telling you now you cannot move while I'm recording my girlfriend. Not anymore. Did you have a mic on? Well, I had my handheld mic and there's been times where, you know, I've grabbed people and I call for security. Some races have security that's super limp wristed. They're not going to help anyways.
There's actually one of my best security moments was a guy riding through the Wonder Woman finish line in Los Angeles. So that's a Mark Knudsen race. Gary Kutcher was our race director. And so I call for security and I go go grab this guy on the bicycle and I'm holding the handlebar so he can't move. And I go security, I need security. And we didn't really have official security, but here comes this big dude, John Hamrick.
I don't know if you know, John, he's Beth, Beth Salinger's husband, big John. And so he comes, but then wonder woman is with him. The Warner brothers, wonder woman. So I call for security and he here's John and wonder woman coming to the rescue. It was hilarious. Someone just sent that video to me today. So the whole thing goes down and Toby, uh, shoot Toby's last name. I wish he's one of my favorite ops guys in California, but yeah.
So that was great. But this time in, or in this race, I, you know, when I get this big dude, I could tell right away, I thought, well, maybe he's going to swing at me, but I got the job, the gist that he wasn't. And I was so far from the finish line. I might've been 75 yards out. So I didn't know if my, my mic would work and I just thought I'm handling it. So I didn't call for security this time, but yeah, he just went straight to the C word and it was over and over over.
And finally the spectator started shouting at him, stop being such an a-hole, get off the road, get off the road. And so he put his bike over the fence and shouting at me still, but you know, we, it's, it's a safety issues in those poor people. When they put their, their health in your hands at a start line, they're trusting that you have the courses barricaded from vehicles that you have medical providers.
If they need it, there will be hydration and so forth. And then of course that finish line will be, you know, champions only Only everybody's welcome who's gone the distance. I worked a marathon in the Midwest, and I was working with the operations director. And the whole last mile and the starting mile is a secure area. And it's locked down the night before. Well, this guy starts walking through this now secure area, and he's got a big duffel bag.
And of course, we all know after Boston that you just know that doesn't happen. Yeah. So the I believe she's the chief of police of this town or she's she's one of the really high ranking officers in the police department. And she's obviously concealed carry and open carry at that point, too. And then I've got another guy with me who is in the military and he's he's done some tours. And so he's definitely concealed carry.
And this guy just starts walking through. Well, he reaches into this bag and it just, you don't know what he's going to do. And so we had backhand, like he backed up and just started backing up the whole way. He backed up an entire mile, the starting mile and the ending mile of this race. He backed up the whole way with his hand in the bag and he kept flinching like he was going to pull out something. So this, this, again, I think she's the chief of police.
She starts somehow radioing, but she's drawn. She drew down on this guy. Good for her. And he's yelling at her like the same thing, the C word, shoot me, you, you see where. And this is just, there's like four or five of us there. Three of us are walking this guy, just trying to get him out of the secure area. But he's already threatened the police officer and yelled at her and told me he was going to kill her. And so he's already obviously going to get arrested if, if not shot.
Right. I just, I'm blown away by, and obviously there's some mental concerns there with this, this young, this person, but he was eventually arrested. And it turns out he had nothing in his bag other than dirty clothes, but mental issues aside, there's a lot of people. Well, even an Ironman one year, I saw a guy carrying his two or three year old across the line with him and he got DQ. Good. Good. The rules clearly state you must
finish on your own alone. Like they emphasize it over. and over again. Yeah. I mean, and people think, Oh, well it's my kid. It's my, it's just my kid. It's our special. No, it's you're putting everybody else at risk. If your child wiggles and bumps into somebody else and takes out. And I've seen runners collide with little kids and trip and almost eat it. Um, when the dad puts their baby on the shoulder and goes running and I think, Oh my God, you're running on marathon legs with a baby.
What happens if you fall? Because if you fall in that baby is hurt, guess what? The race goes down. The race gets sued. It's not your stupidity for bringing your baby, carrying them. It's now the race's fault. And now the race is sued and the sponsors go down and you have to protect that finish line. And most of my race directors are very encouraging, very grateful of me using, I use a microphone, say, you cannot be here. You cannot do this. And notification spectators, do not put your baby,
boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, grandma over the barricade. This is a secure area. You could be disqualified. Yeah. And then the other thing is. You know, there's you, you've worked so hard. You're running through the finish line. This is your big athletic moment. And then there's some like kid with a sandal and a stuffy in their hand. It just mucks everything up. It's so disrespectful. Yeah. Yeah. It's a source of irritation, but it's safety. It's safety, safety, safety.
And, you know, as a team, we're outnumbered on race day and everybody's got to pitch in to keep those start and finish signs secure. Don't you think? Yeah, I agree. I think security at the finish line, most people are just too selfish to understand the danger that they put other athletes in harm's way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do. You know who I love is Frankie Ruiz with Miami, who he has that, you will not cross his finish line. You will not get into his finish line shoot.
He has big dudes and a video camera. And if you're trying to get in without a bib, it's not going to happen. I've never even met Frankie in person. And we were, he was going to help host one of the Wonder Woman races before COVID. Mark Knutson and I met with him online, but yeah, I love that. He will protect his people at all costs. I'm going to kick out of the finish line. Like I said, I get to work operations for a couple of the Midwest races.
And you're really looking for people to come down the finish line, first have a bib. And you're looking out for their wellbeing. If somebody's staggering or weaving, you want to make sure that you don't carry them across the line, but you assist them to the best of your ability to not interfere with their race.
But we'll get people coming down that line like you said on bicycles or just walking along with no bib and I don't know how Frankie Reese is but we'll just escort them out to the point that we just grab them out you go yep, I don't know. Safety, safety, safety. You got to do that first. That goes beyond all the medals and the swag. You got to protect things. But yeah, people get cranky and I think you give it the attention it deserves, right?
I think to the exact opposite of that, it's when the majority of people do things correctly and you get to not only assist them, you're there as support so that if they should fall or stagger, you're an emotional crutch too, but you're also a physical crutch and you get to walk across the line.
I think in the last several races that I've done where I've been able to go back to the finish line and observe some of the last place finishers and just some of the finishers in general, the emotional high that I now get to experience, it's overwhelming. It'll bring tears to your eyes. So to the exact opposite of what we're just talking about, those who don't want to do it right, 99% of them do it right. And when they do, it's just emotional high.
I enjoy it so much. Well, you know, it's, it's, it's so wonderful to see the, the elite athleticism, the champions and give them their due. But I always think the race could just gets more and more exciting. The further back we go, it's one gentleman, Yasin in Buffalo. He was at probably about a six 30 finisher for his first marathon. And he got to that finish line shoot and his body just said, no, it just said not going. And I, like you said, I went over, I said, we'll do this together.
And I allowed him to lean on me. And you could see in this video, the video has gone semi-viral, but his little legs are just kind of going. And it was awesome to know that it was his mind forcing them because those legs had been done and he forced himself to get across that finish line. His family was losing their mind. I mean, it was just so glorious. And if you were there for one athlete the whole entire day, that was the athlete.
And I think he was second to last and And he's, he's just beaming. He's so proud. He's not a guy who's like, Oh, it was second to last. This is awful. He's saying, heck yeah, I did a full marathon. What else can I do? You know, it's just, that's such a great sport. This is great people. Yeah. It is absolutely love running. You can relate to just about anything in life and, you know, the training and the buildup and then finishing.
And again, so many runners have said that once you accomplish a marathon, there's no limit to what you can do. What has been your happiest moment running? If you had to pick one, just one, what would it be? You know, happiest, you know, it, it continues to be, I want to pick out one specific race. Anytime my wife's at the finish line. Yeah. And I know that sounds cheesy, but I don't care how it sounds.
I love seeing her at a finish line. I don't like that. She didn't get there on the marathon or she chose not to run it because she's training for, you know, the next Ironman. But when she's at the finish line and, and I can be a snot filled, salt crusted, stinky, nasty, and she will come up and kiss me. And those are the happy moments. I just, I love seeing her at the finish line. Again, I like it when she runs too, but a lot of times she'll do the half marathon with me,
but I like seeing her at the finish line. There's been some great ones. We were fortunate to do Aspen, Colorado one year. And I don't know if you're familiar with Aspen race, but you get a glass of, everybody gets a glass of champagne at the finish, which is fantastic. Kat Fitzgerald puts that race on. I've done it, I believe twice now. And my wife is at the finish line of one of those and champagne together and tears years. And the first time I did it with her, I won it.
I believe it was a course record that year. And there's just nothing better. I mean, finishing it is great, but to have a significant other there and sipping on champagne, Those are the moments I live for. And Rehoboth Beach is the same. And I've never won Rehoboth, never been closer to Rehoboth Beach. But that's what I live for. I live for those moments, whether you're at a beach, where at Aspen, just any place that you can save up for and make the trip and go to those destination races.
And that's not even true. I mean, I live in Charlotte. I've done Charlotte twice now. And it's great just to finish it and hang out with your significant other and maybe have a great meal or something. Those are the happiest moments. Yeah. You know, it's, you guys are a beautiful couple and just so well connected.
I love your story. And I love that you both care so much about endurance sports because I could see someone who was not into it being quite annoyed that their spouse was always training or traveling. And the fact that you guys get to do many of those things together is pretty special. Yeah. They, they, they say that if you're a marathoner or a triathlete, that if you're not divorced, you soon will be. Ouch. Ouch. Yeah. I haven't heard that, but ouch. But it's rampant in the triathlon community.
If your spouse doesn't get involved in it, it's rampant. Like, oh, shoot, that was my starter wife. Yeah, my starter husband. Oh, yeah, he just didn't do any sports. When I see these races, and oh, where was I? Oh, I was in Casper. And this is the good side of the stories. I was in Casper, and there's a guy who's, you know, he's a little bit bigger than most, and he's not running, and he is beaming. His wife is there to finish her 50 states, And she's hoping for like 6.30.
She finishes in, I think, 5.30. And she's across the line. He's beaming. He's just, and I was like, you know, it takes a special person like you to support that spouse. Because otherwise, this just doesn't work. He goes, oh, we get to travel. We get to enjoy. Wait till you get to see what we get to eat now. Because she's, you know, we're all hungry after a marathon and triathlon. You're always starving. Because we're going to go over here and have dinner. And he's talking, he's figuring it out.
The travel, the food. Yeah. His wife's in, well, for him, it was important that she stay in good shape. I was like, there's, that's a win-win for everybody. I think he figured it out. So the one thing that might drive a non-endurance athlete crazy is the price of bicycles. The fact that some people are dropping 15 grand on a bike, like that might be grounds for divorce and some marriages, depending on their income bracket.
Whenever I announced tries or bike races, you feel like, Oh my God, we've got three million dollars worth of equipment right here at the start line most of the people i i always say how many people have spent more on their bike than their car and there's always a good chunk of hands go up it's just i i've been forced into a 10-3 ironman world championships as an athlete and it's funny for me it the difference in the bike caliber between a world championship and and i'll say just a regular home
iron man yeah yeah it when you go to kona the bikes out there look like ferraris i mean they're everything that you can imagine a bike could have these bikes have it i mean they might have all that stuff well yeah but i mean it's i i got to that level where i mean i was riding a 2004 early bird carbon fiber bike which was fine. But the difference in a you know in a bike back then it was worth six or seven grand to the the, you know, the felt FRD IA1 that I have, it's, as you said, 16 grand.
The difference for me and how quiet it is when you're aero and just power to the pedal and how rigid that bike can be. And see, these are all the nuances and I'm not even a good triathlete, but I think you qualify as good. You definitely are good. Maybe you're not the best yet, but you're good. I don't know that I've put the amount of energy and effort into triathlons. I I just, I love marathoning. I just, I love marathoning.
And the only thing I've seen Ironman do for me, other than put me in the med tent twice, is it takes away from my marathon running. It's a weekend where I could run a marathon. Okay. And I say that, I'm signed up for Maryland. I'm signed up. Yeah. I mean, I'm signed up for more Ironman. So there's something to the Ironman that I love. It's that next step. I don't want to run farther than a marathon.
I don't want to go over 26.2. Too many of my close friends have tried to jump from 26-2 to the ultra world, and I've seen them just get debilitating career-ending injuries. And all I hear from people is, oh, wait till you turn 42. I'm like, I'm 53. So I don't want to hear the negative side effects of what ultras do.
I had a good friend that went for, I think, an Olympic trials qualifier and then did like 100 mile or something, tried to set the American record and basically, well, then basically ended her running career. Now, she went on to do great things in cycling, but, oh, that terrifies me. If someone, someone says you're when, when that happens, I don't know what I'll do when you're running. Well, I'll probably pick up a bite, but your running days are over.
I, I, I tried to do it to myself twice. It doesn't work. So, you know, what's so interesting is you kind of have the Jeff Galloway thing going where, I mean, of course he had a heart attack a few years ago, which wasn't a good experience for him, but I mean, he's almost 80 and he's just still running on and running and running. And, you know, up until that heart attack, he was still doing long distance
races. Some people are designed for it. I have no doubt you're going to be running in your life. I'd love to have Jeff Galloway's pedigree in a CV, but thank you. That's very complimentary. I mean, I do, I see, I tell people until my legs are taken, I want to keep running, maybe not competing. You run to your wife. And of course you've made a bazillion friends. Have you You run with celebrities. Who's someone interesting or people interesting that you've run with?
I mean, I ran the 06 Marathon briefly with Lance Armstrong. That's nothing. I mean, there's 40,000 people in that race too. I mean, Richard Whitehead, I was asked to, I think celebrity wise, he's probably one of the greatest athletes I've run with.
He's a he's a what's the word to put below the knee it's congenital so his legs weren't agitated he was born without legs below the knee, And Team Achilles out of New York City got in contact with me and said, hey, because I was running sub three, like 235 every weekend. And so they got in contact with me and asked me, was it 2010, I think? 2010, 2011? Anyway, got in contact with me, wanted me to run the Boston Marathon with this guy as a guide.
And I thought, man, this is great. You know, get to go run a marathon with somebody and pace them. And they said, he's going to try to run sub three. And then they said, oh, by the way, he doesn't have legs below the knee. What? So this was all new. Like, how does that happen? nothing. And so I got to meet Richard and we talked and he's got a pair of blades that he runs with. And it's really bizarre if you're used to just running back and forth.
So I got to run with him and we missed, we missed sub three that year. I think we ran 305, but it was his first marathon. I mean, he's gone on to set that I, whatever it is, T 52 T two. I'm not familiar with the lingo, but he's like, he had the world record in the Paralympics for 200, 400, 800 hundred half marathon marathon the end of run 237 in a marathon incredible, it's like that so athletically that that was probably one of the greatest.
Running days especially for being for Boston I don't know that I've run with anybody okay like a president or anything like that I mean I mean I get to see a lot of cool race directors that are world famous you know hanging out with hanging out with Rick Neal this is I mean one of the highlights of my life just chatting with him got to hang out with him after he got inducted into the hall of fame the marine corps hall of fame i just look up that guy he just i mean 30 years as
a race director i get to i got this i get to see cree kelly gets to hang out with free kelly at his retirement cree is a doll love that guy yeah got to hang out with david gilvery at his 50th boston it's all involves running so, if they're doing something running race director of a great race or a large race or i got to run chicago with joan benoit samuelson well very cool yeah i got to pace her for the first mile i was supposed to pace her for the
first mile and she was gone i believe it i never saw i was i was filming for her her film uh there is no finish line i was asked to film, film her during the race and i couldn't keep up with her it's awesome and i was running again it was back in 2011 maybe it was right before she was trying to go for the olympics to qualify for the Olympic trials, I believe she was 60 at that time. I'd have to look at the year, but she was trying to qualify for the Olympic trials and.
Chicago and Nike called and asked if I would wear a neoprene hat with a GoPro on top of it. And that's my excuse. I was wearing a five pound GoPro and plus Joan went out, I think 454 for opening mile. And I didn't tell you the last time I ran a 454 mile. So if, if ever, so yeah, it's, it's all runners. It's hanging out with runners. I got to run with Desland and this last, she doesn't know who I am. And I sort of, they want to get a little fan boy, but I could have got to run
with her at Charlevoix this past weekend. in. I mean, and I say with her, I got to run behind her. Sure. Still cool. Still cool. Yeah. Just to hang out, hear some of her stories and she, they're all down to earth. They're all just super nice people. It's just fun to, you know, be part of it. Right. I love, I love it's the friends, you know, I love, I love that this is my source of income, right? It's a great way to make a living type thing, but it's just all these besties I have.
I truly feel like half the people I've never even met more than online or we meet and spend five minutes or less than five minutes together at an expo. And then all of a sudden I love them so dearly. It's like, how does that happen so fast? But it does. Yeah. I guess my, my idea of a celebrity and friends, I think all these runners are celebrities. They, you know, or they've done one or 10,000 marathons. Like they're all celebrity and race directors are celebrities to me.
So I, I fanboy more over race directors like Joe Moreno out at Kwan cities and, you know, rick neilis and alex huddington i mean i just i fanboy over the race directors because i know what they have to go through it's yeah it's amazing to see them do the things they do.
For just mostly that one day or that one weekend gary guthrow at oc i i celebrate that guy i mean it's just crazy some of these things they do yeah they're uh they're incredible boy and gary is just the sweetest the sweetest sweetheart of a sweetie you'd ever meet he's just i love him dearly i'm I'm very fortunate. Gary and I met at an event director's conference. I had signed up for the Portland Marathon. I wanted to go. I was living in Coos Bay, and I wanted to go to Portland.
Gary and I are upstairs at this conference, and somebody said, what are you guys doing after the session? I said, I'm going to go downstairs and have a glass of Pinot Noir. And Gary goes, you don't know Pinot Noir. Yeah. I do, because I thought I knew everything about wine, right? So Gary and I go down to this wine bar that was, you know, just a couple blocks. He goes, oh, there's a great wine bar right around the corner. We went down it.
I thought I knew Pinot Noir, but he opened up a Costa Brown. And it was, to this day, it is my favorite Pinot Noir. It's just, it was amazing wine. Here's another Gary Kutcher race director extraordinaire fun fact. He is also a fine artist.
Yes. Oh my gosh. He did paintings. paintings they're all very uh patriotic they're well not all of them but he has like the desk of abraham lincoln the desk of walt disney he's got all the special american documents in his most recent painting it's the constitution and the bill of rights it's just it's just one man have so many talents there's history in that painting yeah it's not just a painting there's there's a story of a lifetime of stories in that painting i was actually
i was very fortunate this last I asked OC Marathon to spend some time in Gary's house. And one of my colleagues, Pat Schreck, they got into this really heated discussion about the meaning behind the painting. And does the Bill of Rights have anything to do with today's society? And I sat back on the couch with Gary's wife, and we're eating popcorn and sipping on a glass of wine.
And there's three guys, a politician, Gary, and Pat Schreck, who's, as you know, a newbie to the running industry, but certainly experienced beyond belief in academia as well as in his prior company startups. And we just sat and listened. It was amazing to hear the story behind why Gary painted that. So I got to watch Gary in the process of painting it. I would FaceTime and I'd get to see it in one stage. And then we'd chat a couple of weeks later and it was another stage and he's
so detailed. It's just fascinating.
How can one man do so many things so well? And of course he designs his own race medals and the beach cities challenge medals are so beautiful to this day he is one of the best and i think it's kelsey veal i think it's kelsey peterson peterson yeah their advertising a marathon guide is some of the most graphic well some of the best design graphic designs i've ever seen and people all the time when they go to advertise like chuck show me some good ads and the first one i send
them is oc's ads because they're just, they're impressive they're so great they're works of arts in themselves it's just it's amazing So we just touched on something I think we both have in common, which is our raging affection for freedom and our country. And I know you're a serious patriot. Why do you love America so much? Well, having traveled to roughly 17 countries, I think the things that were afforded, the luxuries were afforded far outweigh any other country I visited.
I mean, I've seen the sewage lake of Lake Adelaide. I've done Berlin and even, of course, the history there with losing freedom. I really don't want to travel. I mean, I would go back and do the Berlin Marathon, but I wouldn't move anyplace else. There's some other good countries. Maybe the healthcare system's better. But terrain-wise, we have every climate you could possibly imagine in the 50 states.
We have anything you think you would want to do, unless it's climb a specific mountain or go to Everest. America's got everything. Yeah, it's not perfect, but I think people travel to other countries and go, I want to move there. I don't think they see how difficult that country might be to actually reside, whereas America, it's free. It really is free. Pretty special, eh? Oh, yeah. I wouldn't have it any other way. I was very fortunate. I realized how fortunate I was to be born here.
I get it. I have friends from Ukraine right now that have, in fact, we have some employees in Ukraine that can't leave because their husbands are part of that military system. And if you're a male in Ukraine of a certain age, if you leave, it's desertion. And they will hunt you down. That's a side of Ukraine that most people aren't familiar with. It's kind of like what we went through during the Vietnam era with the draft.
They're permanently drafted until I think, well, I don't want to butcher the age, but I think 43. Wow. I'd have to check. So we have employees all over the world, and they all see the things that we're able to do. I can travel anywhere I want in the 48 states to run a marathon, and I don't need some government's permission to do it. I can just get in my truck and go. young. So yeah, there's a lot of things that we're afforded here that I think are taken for granted by a lot of Americans. Yeah.
It's all I ever want. And whenever I travel overseas, I certainly enjoy myself and enjoy meeting new people and seeing new things, but I'm always so excited to get back here. Yeah. I love coming home. Yeah. Yay. Yay for the USA. Okay. So I got some quickie questions. Hopefully you'll be able to put up some short answers. I'll try to be as concise nice as possible. Yeah. Yeah.
And this, this folks, this is a two-parter Chuck and I have been sitting here for almost two hours, but this will be a two-parter episode. And I knew it was going to be. So I, I'm the only person in the history of my show. Have I ever said, please give me two hours? Cause Chuck has so much to share. So which race is the biggest party along from start to finish the actual race race itself? What race would you consider the biggest party race?
I think the biggest finish line party, if I can have that caveat, Rehoboth Beach, bar none. It'll sell out. You can't get into it. But at the finish line, they have a massive food aisle tent. They have a massive party tent. And as long as my legs are out, I will attempt to get to Rehoboth Beach and party at finish line with Mary Beth Hutton and her throng of party goers. It's beautiful. I don't even know what state that's in. Delaware. Delaware.
Interesting. I've not been to Delaware. The tiniest state with the largest this party. I mean, it's amazing. Cool. I dig that. I dig that. Which race has the best swag? Wow. Best swag. Let me look at my wall. Meaning shirts, hats, whatever you get overall. I mean, if it's free, I would say, I think they all give t-shirts out. I'm not a shirt guy, so it doesn't really impact. Yeah, don't wear shirts, do you? It doesn't impact anything. I mean, metal-wise, you got to give it to Little Rock.
Well, that was going to be my next question, Little Rock. I mean, the best, and they used to be the party race too. And I don't mean that derogatorily, but the finish line used to be, the year I did it was at the presidential library and you just partied. And I, I haven't been back. I was the first loser there in all go a year. And then I went back a couple of times, but I, the metal down there is just, it's a dinner plate. And I think it gets bigger every year.
Ginormous. Yeah, absolutely ginormous and busy and glittery. And they're so fun. So they're really good at stuff. Yeah. And they're really good at fluff. And they, the two race directors previously, Gina and Geneva, they used to call themselves fluff and stuff or CIC. these chicks in charge. And it was a party. And again, I haven't been back in so long, but I'm sure it's continued. What race do you think is the most, or what marathon do you think is the most peaceful?
Crater Lake. And where's that? Oregon. Okay. You started at 7,000 feet. You run along this crystal clear blue Lake for, and it's so peaceful up there. And there's, there's all you hear is the wind whipping through the trees, the Lake. It's just, it's so surreal. What is the best race on a mountain? Pike's Peak. Okay. But I'd do it again. Best race on a beach or near the beach? Rehoboth. And I do Rehoboth every year. I've done it six or seven years now, and I wish I had started earlier.
Which race is the most patriotic? Patriotic. I mean, it's got to be Marine Corps. Okay. And I'm dying to try to get back to Marine Corps. It just gets tough. What has the loudest, rowdiest fans? Boston. Yeah. Easily Boston. The whole way. Yeah. So if you're looking for the party race, Rehoboth finish line, but to your question, Boston is a party from start to finish. And I used to have an opinion about charity runners, but raise the money, go. It's a party. You've earned it. Go.
Yeah. You know what's very funny? So I ran it in 21. That's my only marathon, that one. And as I was going and really enjoying it, people were saying, oh, but it's, this is, it's not as good as it normally is. And I thought, well, geez Louise, this is just fine. This is awesome. Yeah. I mean, this past year, maybe I just, cause I ran significantly slower than I had in the past and I was in that mid pack group, which lost pack is like three 45.
Yeah. It was thunderous. and I compare the finish line, you know, when you turn left on Hopkins, it's, it's, it's, it's, I can't even compare it to the Olympics. I believe there are more. In fact, there are, there are more people along that last 600 yards than there are at the Olympic stadium. It's just thunders and there's ticker tape, people throwing, you know, confetti and it it's deafening and it's deafening for 600 yards.
It's so good. So good. I had sports bra with my name blame and blazoned on it. So those people in Boston, they treated me like I was their sister, their girlfriend, their mom, their daughter, whatever. And it wasn't just go fits. It was go to roll, go fits, as though I had any chance of winning. I was 15,000th place, but their cries were so intense. It was so joyful. It was a really fun, fun experience. Yeah. I think if you can qualify for it, or if you can raise $10,000 to get in.
That's your race. You've got to find a way to do it. I've been very fortunate to have done it. This will be my 20th year, I believe. It's the one race that I promised myself. I'm very fortunate. I just got my qualifying time. It's actually the latest in the season to earn my qualifying time. I just staggered through it. I'm thrilled to go back in 2025. I think I've qualified by enough. I got about an 11-minute cushion this time. Usually, I have a 45-minute cushion, but this year, we'll see.
That's still spectacular. And I love your affirmation on the charity runners. Cause it's, I think it's really ignorant. The people who say, well, if, if I don't qualify, I'm not doing it. And I mean, they raised $40 million each year for great causes for the act of you training for preparing, flying to, and going the distance. Why would you, why would you at all consider that a bad idea? Or, you know, it just kicked off the charity thing for other marathons. I mean, they really kicked it off.
Other marathons had started to think about it. Boston launched it. And I used to think the same thing that a lot of those people who poo-poo charity runners. Hey, you know, you didn't qualify. And I still look at people and they say, it's phrasing for me. If they say, oh, I qualified for Boston, then I'm going to say, where was your qualifier? Oh, no, I did it for a charity. Well, so you're not a Boston qualifier.
Yeah. But you could like take some pride in it. Oh, yeah. I charity ran for Boston. No kidding. How much did you raise? Yeah. There should be a sense of pride about it versus the deception of, I qualify for Boston. Just say you're a charity runner and own it and be proud of it. $10,000 is a crap load of money. Yeah. There's so much good done that day. I couldn't have been any more proud. I can't figure out why anyone would not be thrilled by the opportunity and taken.
They might be scared of the task of raising the money because you not only have to run, but you have to pull in this income. But it was cool. It was so cool. It's easy to go. I think it's easy to go train and qualify. That's all I have to do is run and qualify. But if you said, oh, qualify. Oh, and by the way, you've got to raise $10,000 or $15,000. Oh yeah. I think, I think, I mean, I would give it a shot. Yeah. Maybe I will one of these days because I, but I, like you said, it's daunting.
Okay. So which race marathon is for the best cause and not, not just individual charity runners, but there's a race and it's for blank. Which race is that? It's two I've not done. And, uh, 26, two for Donna and then, uh, St. Jude, Memphis. Those are the two that I think, and I did a tour of St. Jude, Memphis, and it just wrecks to see a child.
Yeah. I can't even, I just, and I, I, if, if you ever wanted to raise money for any charity, if Boston's not on your game plan and you maybe feel that charity runners in Boston should qualify to that, then St. Jude, just go figure it out and raise as much for St. Jude as you would for Boston. And sadly, I used to live two hours from Memphis. I lived in Jackson, to Mississippi and I, I never did St. Jude and it's just, well, we would love to have you at the Donna.
I announced that race and it is very special. I'm glad you mentioned it. Yeah. What is the best marathon for first timers? I'm going to pick flat and easy. Not that a marathon is easy. Jeez. There's a lot of good ones. I mean, I, I don't know. I, I, there was one in Ohio that used to be called last chance for Boston.
Okay. And I thought that was easy and a great first timer because you had an aid station every mile and you had a split every mile and i thought it was easy you could set your watch and your timer and forget it like that's the hard thing is to pace yourself but every time you go through a lap so i thought that was easy for first timers but i i hear that circling the block 26 times and it's gradual it's a it literally is a big oval it's not right turn right turn right turn
it's it's a big oval so i thought that was an easy one to qualify, but people think that's monotonous and they don't want to do it. First timers. I think you need the encouragement along the way. I think there has to be a healthy flow of spectators. And I wish Boston could be everybody's first marathon, because if that was the case, there'd be a plethora of 500 marathon finishers around the world.
I don't know. There's a lot of flat ones. I don't encourage... I mean, I love the downhill races if you really want that BQ and want to earn it. But if you don't train properly, and very few people do for those downhill rebel races, if you don't train properly for it, you're probably going to get injured. If not, you're not going to be able to walk for a month. What is your favorite downhill race?
Oh, the Hawaii Bird Conservancy Marathon in Hawaii. It starts at the top of a volcano, and it's the only one I found that goes downhill all the way the entire time. There's not a single go uphill to that thing.
In fact, the only part that it even goes remotely flat is that you pop out of the Volcano Park, National Park, you turn left, you go streaming downhill for 26.1 miles, and then you turn left and it feels like an uphill, but it's not, and you finish into this little tiny side-of-the-road park, and it's maybe 100 yards of level. Okay. Look, I love the Rebel races. They do a great job with those events. With this Hawaii Bird Conservancy, I think there's a 300-person limit. Okay.
Yeah, there's not a single uphill or flat part until the finish. What's the toughest? Hands down, Blue Ridge. Road Marathon, Blue Ridge. It's brutal. Go ahead. So I just left. I just vacationed in the Blue Ridge area this week. Where do you start? Where do you finish? So you start in Roanoke, downtown, finish in the same spot. Okay. It's over 10,000 foot of elevation in the first one. And if you're a sadistic like me, you'll try to do it twice in the same day,
which I did. And I managed to pull it off 52.4 miles in the same day. But yeah, that's a different story. I had broken ribs and concussion, but it's a different story. But the race is brutal. It's really brutal. It's, like I said, 10,000 feet of elevation gain, but it's gorgeous. Oh, and if you hate it, I think at mile 11, you run through this private road. And it goes to this massive Chateau. Oh, wow. And they're outside.
If you just want to bail on the race, I mean, finish the race, but if you just want to bail on everything training that led you to that point, they serve mimosas and they have chairs and you can sit out and drink two or three mimosas and be on your way. Quite enticing. The Blue Ridge Marathon is, it's a different animal. Okay, interesting. Now, what is the weirdest thing you've ever run while running a marathon or worn? I'm sorry, weirdest thing you've ever worn by running a marathon?
Wow. I mean, I think in the early days, my shirtless running was probably... I just, I don't like clothing and I don't mean that in a sexual way. I just, I don't like clothes. I just, I freaking hate clothing. Haven't you worn costumes? Haven't you worn some pretty weird stuff? No, never, never will. Never have. I thought you wore something like a big yellow Coke can or something for a race. I will never, I will never try to draw attention to myself through my, through, through a costume.
Costume now if people want to see me in a race i i'll wear what i think to be the prescribed uniform of the day which is shorts and a tank top which may have may or may not have my name on it i do that one so that yeah it's recognition but i want fans friends to hey you know i didn't see you oh well that's because i was wearing a black top and black shorts like a thousand other runners so i might wear a pair of neon yellow shorts and a shirt that says marathon junkie on it Okay.
But I just, I don't, I mean, to each his own. I just, I'm not a costume. It's just not what I do. Yeah. Yeah. How many, how many tank tops do you have or singlets do you have with marathon junkie on it? Uh, currently just one. Just one. Brian Diddy made it for me about three weeks ago and I've worn it in every single race since I got it. Does Summer have a Mrs. Marathon junkie shirt? No. And I got to get her one. I know I, she, she should probably have one that says Mrs. Everything or Dr.
Mueller or Or yeah, she needs a tank top. Well, the one she wears all the time, it says, that's a horrible idea. What time? Right. That's one of my favorites. Love it. She's not into the, look at me, look at me. She's just not that girl. Got it. She needs that to me, I think. Well, you guys are pretty sweet. So I can imagine her wearing a sweet Mrs. Marathon junkie shirt. Oh, I think if I asked her, I think she'd do anything for me, but I would never ask that of her. Okay.
Okay. What do you eat before you run a marathon? on? So we've gotten into the whole white rice salmon. Okay. Night before is white rice salmon. Two nights before is a massive pasta meal. What about the morning of? The morning of has become a, you can shake, hopefully steel cut oats, or sometimes I got to do instant oatmeal and that's two and a half to three hours before the race start. And then I've gotten into the new, I don't have it here, but the gator light.
I'll sit just a little gator light watered down.
Cause it's got dip the electrolytes potassium and stuff in okay and i know i don't believe you listen to music while you run but if you were to run a full marathon and you could only listen to one song and you had to choose a song what song would that be well so i i have it's the spa station on amazon music the spa station it's the spa station on amazon music and is it just i actually have i just went out and got these to see how you can see these i just went out and got the note the
new Bose QC Ultra Comfort, and they stay in my ear, which is great. And don't do this when you're racing because you're not allowed to. I don't think that spa, I'm such a rage when the race starts, even if I'm just jogging a three 45 or what have you, I'm such a rage. I just, there's so much adrenaline and aggression going into the start of the race that I, I absolutely have to have calm, soothing, relaxing.
That's one of the reasons I love cradle lake so much because it's just so soothing. it that is so funny possibly the weirdest response i've ever had to that question i just i need spa music i i even when my my mind races and and obviously when your mind races you're burning glycogen and so if my mind is not thinking about anything i'm not burning that extra glycogen yeah yeah you know what's so interesting i i will turn to podcast just keep me busy because my mind too needs constant,
I, it just keeps going. So I'll need somebody else saying words like this. Hopefully we are talking people through some sort of endurance sport, but, but yeah, that's interesting. Weird spa noises. Okay. And I know you didn't say weird. That's my own addition. That's. Yeah, no, I, it, it's kind of like I'm in a massage parlor and just relaxing and trying to keep this mechanism, this orb trying to be quiet. What's a, what's your favorite movie?
You know, it's, it, What I can tell you is Forrest Gump, I've watched it 10 times, but there's also any derivation of the Prefontaine movie from his documentary, Fire on the Track. I have him on VHS. I have him on DVD. I have the store on my Apple iTunes now. So Forrest Gump and anything Prefontaine related. Favorite book? Anything by James Patterson. Anything. Yeah. And my wife fortunately has, she can read a book like a James Patterson novel.
I'll say in a night, maybe a night and a half, she's one of those speed readers. So there's just James Patterson novels all over the house. So whenever she's done, I'll just grab one. And she's out working late. Like tonight, she's riding a bike until eight o'clock. I'll sit down and grab one of her books and thumb through it. How many books do you read a year? I mean, I would probably say I go through a book every two, three weeks. But I mean, you can't see it, but I'm actually in my office.
I mean, everything running. I mean, I have the lore of running by notes i have i mean there's there's no fewer than 200 running books in here by every author you can imagine i mean if somebody wrote co i mean yeah oh here's a good one we. This is one of my favorites i can't see it what does it say my life on the run by bart also okay i had him sign it when he was in waitstreet with me very sweet bart's a funny guy what are Never limit where running can take you.
That sounds very hard. Yeah. He's just, he's one of my inspirations. That guy, I mean, he flat out told me, he says, I was running marathons before you were born. Yep. Love it. He's crazy. Yeah. He's, he's certainly been committed to this sport. No doubt. Yeah. Now going back to when you were a kid, who was your first Hollywood crush? Oh, Farrah Fawcett. Who's your modern day Hollywood crush? I mean, I don't have any right now. You're going to have one.
I mean, if it was music, it'd be Selena Gomez. Okay. She's just got some songs that I don't know. Yeah. Selena Gomez. I just, her music somehow just, I don't know. It's fun. Okay. And since you're going to have two shows, you got to give me a second song of the week. What is the other song of the week? I'm a classic Van Halen guy. So anything Van Halen. Pick a song. Yeah, Van Halen just, I mean, those were the classic things, Van Halen, Def Leppard.
And those are the songs that if I can, if I hear them again, I, I instantly turn them up. And it doesn't matter how many times I've heard them. I'll turn them right up. So you would have loved Fargo Marathon this year. We had Mark Knutz in Friday Night 5K and we had a DJ at the start, but I was tasked with, I always bring my music. Whenever I'm announcing the music is mine, I've purchased it and mixed it. And it was so fun mixing up a specialist.
And, you know, I've been to Mark's house and his house was actually decorated with album covers with Def Leppard and Poison and whatever. So it was, it was great. And people. Mark's 80s, his love of 80s music is, I think, just everyone knew that he loved the 80s. We sat at the Ironman Florida together the year we did it. And we sat outside the next day with breakfast and his girlfriend at the time, Donna. We were all sitting out there with my wife.
And I just recall that even his ringtone, I think, was something from the 80s. Yeah. I should have gone to Fargo. I know I was committed to a speaking engagement that weekend. Mark is a good friend, and he's deeply missed by a lot of people. Yeah. It's a punishing loss. Absolutely. Yeah. Unacceptable. Yeah. But here we are, right? Every year to the race. He always put me up in one of the college dorm rooms all to myself.
Because he had me a hotel. I was like, no, I get a chance to stay in a dorm room again. So I got crashed in the dorm room. It was great because it reminded me a lot of, well, college. And there was a little sushi bar behind the dorm room that I'd have sushi lunch every time. And I, yeah, Fargo is a great race. Oh, that's not, that's probably a good first timer event. Yeah. That's just, it's wicked flat. I mean, wicked flat. And it's almost always cool.
That's, that's where I would steer first timers is to a flat, cool race up North, North Olympic discovery marathon Fargo. Yeah. Sorry. No, no, that's great. And, and finally for someone who's never run a marathon and they're considering it, what would your advice for them be? Race a mile. Race a mile. Give me one good mile first. Love it. Well, Chuck, you have been a delight. Thank you for so much of your time. Where can people find you?
I'm on Instagram at Marathon Junkie. I'm on Facebook at Marathon Junkie. And I'm in Fort Mill, South Carolina. What's that ad? It says, come find me. And then my race directors who listen, if they would like to do business with you, how do they do that? Yeah. Yeah, like I said, Instagram, Facebook's easy. I'd give you my phone number. You have it. Yeah. I mean, I'm booked up pretty much through October. I don't.
It's been great. It's been a good year. I retired and then I got hounded for, and I mean hounded for, you know, hanging out at races, talking to pasta dinners and talking like this to folks just one-on-one. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. There are worse, worse jobs to do, right? There are. Yeah. It's actually offensive to call this stuff a job. It's. It's that thing we're told, you know, your dad says, you know, you can go be a soldier and, and maybe take a chance of dying overseas.
And I said, sign me up. And then when I got out, he said, find something you love to do, which I think every parent and tell their children is find something you love to do and find a way to make money doing it. And I've been doing that for 40 plus years. So spectacular. I'm a big fan. Chuck Engel, thank you so much for spending this time with us. And you got to tell everybody, say, get to work. Get to work. Hi, this is Rudy Novotny, the voice of America's marathons.
We all love how much running has benefited every aspect of our lives. So much so that most of us only wish we'd started sooner. Wouldn't it be wonderful to gift the opportunity to children of today? Well, you can. The Morning Mile is a before-school walking and running program that gives children a chance to start each day in an active way while enjoying fun, music, and friends.
That's every child, every day. It's also supported by a wonderful system of rewards which keeps students highly motivated and frequently congratulated. Created by our favorite fitness expert, Fitz Kohler, Morning Milers across the country have run over 2 million miles and are having greater success with academics, behavior, and sports because of it. The Morning Mile is free to the child, free to the school, and is inexpensively funded by businesses or generous individuals.
Help more kids get moving in the morning by visiting MorningMile.com. Champion the program at your favorite school or find out more about sponsorship opportunities. That's MorningMile.com. Long may you run.