Welcome to the Everyday PM Podcast, the podcast where we discuss project management principles for your everyday life. My name is Anne Campia, I'm the founder and host of the Everyday PM Podcast. I've also had the sincere and great opportunity of working as a project manager across various industries. And I'm very excited to welcome today Matthew, who is a former federal chief audit executive. He's had executive oversight over billions of government, billions of dollars in
government projects. He currently helps public service and nonprofit leaders identify early warning signs in project management. So we are here today together to talk about early warning signs, a public sector perspective on project leadership. So Matthew, welcome to the podcast. And for those who have not met you yet, net, please take a brief moment to introduce yourself to our audience. Great. Well, thanks very much for having me in. It's great to be here. Yeah.
So I spent the first half of my career in project delivery and client services. So it was always on the the front end stuff. Did that across a number of different countries. And then what I found myself in the Canadian capital of Ottawa. It was the, you know, the biggest game in town was government.
So I naturally found my way into the largest employer there and through kind of a funny sequence of events, developing learning programs and networking events and all this type of thing, I found myself doing that for the audit community, which I knew nothing about. But I dove in head first, feet first, not sure which which is the case there.
But in any case, I made a good run of it and decided to make a a bit of a career of it. So I spent the next 15 years in audit and in oversight as well and covered, yeah, as you mentioned, huge major projects in a, in a host of different departments and agencies. And one of the things that stuck out to me over and over and over again was that although the audit side would scream you need to pay attention to risk, it's so important on the project side.
Very often it was seen as a compliance exercise. So, you know, let's get this done with, let's pop it in the plan and then let's move on with the real work because that's where we need to dedicate our energy. And for me, I because I, I'd experienced both sides of the fence. I knew that there was value there. That kind of both were missing. In a sense, risk management is meant to be a clinical activity. It's really meant to be strategic one.
And let's build that into the leadership trades, leadership tendencies and try to make sure that we're using it to protect project ambition and not hold it back. So that's my mission. That's that's what I try to to preach to, to all the public sector leaders that I work with. That's very beautifully said and and outlined there. You know, the everyday PM audience is we have a plethora of folks, obviously folks that aren't project managers whatsoever. This enjoy the podcast.
But we also have a wide range of project leaders who are just starting out their career and kind of then now into that maybe the tail ends of their careers. So the way that you outline that makes it feel like auditing, risk, all of those things are inherently part of every single project, no matter your level experience, what type of project, and that sort of thing.
So let's talk about the universal nature of project challenges because you did mention that project management challenges are universal across all sectors. Your experience overseeing billions in government projects, what surprised you the most about how similar these challenges are between public and private? And do you have an example that you can share with the audience?
Well, I, I'd say that, you know, we always say, especially in change initiatives, and I mean, most projects are, are change initiatives of one form or another, whether it's just introducing a new version or completely redoing something existing or building from scratch. And you know that the older dodge is that people will be your biggest enablers and they'll be your biggest
detractors, right. So that's, that is going to be the biggest measure of the success is how many champions you have and how many people, you know, negative announcers you have that are trying to bring it down to a certain extent. And so those people elements are so often they're addressed to a certain extent, right? We, we talk about stakeholder risk or, or something like that, but it's very high level and we group everyone in the same
bucket. But one of the, the biggest disciplines that, that I find and I teach PMP as well, is how little attention is paid to, to stakeholder management, not in a general sense, but you know, your stakeholder is not a client organization because there's, you know, 1000 people there, 500 different jobs, etcetera, etcetera. And they all need different things.
So, so missing that key opportunity to not just, you know, coddle people and make sure that they have what they need, but to, to try to breed champions for your project because that is going to be the biggest unseen risk. And we can, we can go through all the different people elements, but I'd say that people in many different categories end up being the biggest risks for most projects.
And I'd say that that applies public sector, private sector, big organization, small organization, pretty much across the board. And, and I love that you bring this up. You know, I, I always, I'm so fascinated with the evolution, evolution of our role in our industry and that, you know, even just you using terminology like project leaders over project managers and champions
and that sort of thing. Just in the history of our role, you've seen this emphasis on people and the soft skills are what PMI, at least Project Management Institute calls the power skills that are inherent in our role as well. I love that you talk about it stakeholders first.
It's not anything around the traditional iron triangle parameters of a project of time, costs, qualities, whatever that you know used to be. So in your experience now with stakeholder engagement and understanding your stakeholders, do you have any practical tools or tips that you typically go to 1st as you're helping others understand how to engage stakeholders, how to in essence lead them?
And then I guess the the other part of my question is, are there any early warning signs that folks can spot when it comes to stakeholder engagement, for example, disengage stakeholders? Yeah, absolutely. So when we look at stakeholders and when I talk about stakeholders as well, you know, we often we're we're talking about others, right. So maybe it's a partner team, but you know, it's going to be users or government regulators or something like that. But stakeholders to me is
everyone under the sun. And that's the official definition, of course, but, but in practice it doesn't often seem that way. So when I say stakeholders, I mean, you know, steering committee, I mean senior executive leadership, I mean peers, I mean end users, I mean, you know, if IMIT is helping out in a, in a way and you're not part of that group. So it's pretty much everybody under the sun, including the project team, of course.
And the, the key, I think, to, to establishing a foundation for success is understanding their motivations. And also, it sounds funny, but understanding their understanding. So how do they see the project? How do they see it either adding or detracting from their everyday life? And they might be completely neutral, but they might be completely neutral right now and, and not so much when we're ready to, to release or to
implement. So trying to understand where they're coming from because we tend to bucket people into very specific roles. So if we're looking at seat steering, committee oversight, executive leadership, most of the time we're trying to get through those conversations right. What reports can I give that tells a good story and then I can just get out of there. And, you know, uneventful meeting is a is a successful meeting, but that's to a certain extent.
Sometimes that's going to actually just kick the can down the road. So conversations that were left unsaid will come back to roost. So do we want to deal with those early or do we want to have those blow up in our faces down the road? And then the second thing is, of course, from top level all the way down, we can get things out of these conversations as well. It's not always about pumping it information and trying to get them to understand you.
The key element is US understanding them because that can take us down very intriguing paths. It can open up new types of solutions and like I said that having these true conversations and unfortunately letting some people vent at us sometimes can release the steam and and start to build true understanding and and build true support across the board. Yeah, absolutely.
And, and for those who you know, I have, I teach as well, and I get this a lot from students when we get to this part of PMP prep, which is, well, I have all these people, I have maybe a list of 20 people or something on my stakeholder register. How do I get to know each individual at that level? And so do you have any tips for folks in terms of how to make sure they spend enough time in this area able to gather the information they need to to, you know, get that insight that you
just just described? And what are some of the things that have worked for you, maybe some of the things that haven't worked for you when it comes to gathering information about? People, yeah. So the I mean, talking about trying to understand and trying to, to, to, to, to build champions that goes within the team as well.
And I'd say that project leaders, if they are trying to be the face of the project at every turn, they are not only doing the project, it's a service, but but really wasting opportunity. So the more that we can empower our own team to become the external facing champions, the better. So we're going to cover more people. Our team members are going to feel that much more vested because it's their project. They're not working for a project.
They own the project, they own the results and we can just cover so much more ground. And you know, sometimes we do have to categorize people. These types of folks will treat in this sort of way. It's not going to be a one-on-one relationship for tons of different people. I mean, as I said, you know, some of these projects that I've touched to their, their stakeholders ultimately, but potentially even in the 1,000,000, right? Not even just in the hundreds or thousands.
And so we're going to have one-on-one coffees with a million people. That's not too likely. But, but, but we can try our best to, to try to scale that as much as we can. And the only way that we can do it is, is for me to, to recognize that I, I can't be the only one who's talking about this project. And my team is going to be chomping at the bit. So why not empower them and try to delegate as much as possible? Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome.
I have a question that I've been really eager to ask you and I'm excited to get to this question now because you're talking about people engaging with people, empowering your team to also be the champion with you. You stepped into a role that carries a a term or a word that I think, at least in my professional experience, people get nervous around, which is the
word audit. Big A. Yes. And for you to be in that space and I know when you described your professional journey, you said, you know, I went into the space not really knowing what it was, if I recall what you said. And so I just think you have such a unique vantage point when it comes to project leadership
and being in that role. And where my head is going is how did you get around that notion that audit is kind of maybe associated with something negative or scary or whatever those feelings are that conjure up when people hear that word? And how have you spent your career in this space and, and been able to gain the trust and, and the, you know, the work of
your stakeholders? And I just want to hear more about that perspective because it's not a space that I typically play in. And in my experience, it's always been kind of tied together. So I'm hoping you can kind of demystify that as well. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'll say if I'm going to stumble backwards into the profession, I'm glad I stumbled backwards in the public sector.
And the reason that I say that is largely, especially when you get into larger organizations that are heavily regulated, you know, even financial or, or anything like that, these organizations are largely mostly focused on compliance. They don't need to worry too much about how things are going because at the end of the day, what is the color of the ink, right? If it's making lots of money, things are going well. If it's not, things are going poorly. We might want to figure it out.
We might want to leverage some on it for sure. But the, the predominant driver there is going to be compliance to A, to a certain extent in the public sector. It does not play so cleanly. Every single organization, I'm sorry, not every single, but what 9 out of 10 government organizations, if not more make no money, right? They only lose money, they only spend money. So you have central revenue collecting taxes or whatnot, but everybody else is spending money.
And so that, that line is blurred significantly and it becomes very difficult to challenge whether or not we're doing well, right? Things are murky, priorities change, their political motivations involved. And so it can become a quite a challenge to, to determine whether or not they're doing well. And that's where internal audit comes in heavily on the public sector side. And that was really what I clung to. And I always, let's make sure we're, we're taking care of business.
I mean, we don't want to break any laws, those types of things. But the perspective that I always took and the perspective that I brought into the many, many, many difficult conversations that I had to have, the many tense conversations that I had to have, the perspective that I brought was both sides of the table are trying to ensure that the organization is delivering the best results. We're just coming at it from different angles.
I'm making sure that we're keeping an eye down the road so that something doesn't appear suddenly out of nowhere and they're trying to deliver the best results. And to me, they're complimentary different ultimate stakeholders. I reported directly to the head of the organization and, and you know, so there's, I'm not part of the hierarchy, but, but that
was my motivation. And so it allowed for me to, whether or not they saw it this way, it allowed for me to to, to deliver bad news while feeling good about it to a certain extent. That was perfect. You've already calmed me down for my my, I was concerned that you were currently auditing this podcast, but no, I think that that it's a partnership, right? Yes, I, I, I completely see it that way. Now in terms of you, you're ultimately both after the same goals.
And so I appreciate you kind of breaking that down for us. So, you know, now I'm curious because you spent many, many years in your career as the chief audit executive and now since leaving federal service, you've been working with, you've decided to work with nonprofits or, or other public service organizations. So tell me a little bit about how that transitions been for you. And has there been a big curve in terms of adapting what you used to do versus what you're doing today?
Well, there's, I mean, there's definitely a curve in, in the sense that, you know, starting your own business versus being part of an organization of thousands and thousands of people. So, so there's that perspective for sure. But it was from a directional standpoint, no, it wasn't difficult because this is, this is kind of been a pain point of mine for a while.
So a lot of folks in my former position, if they were to, to get into developing their own advisory and consultancies, they would get into audit risk management, you know, leveraging what you know. But for me, as I said, you know, at the very beginning, the crux for me was always that that disconnection between the risk and the project leader.
And that to me is, is the biggest, possibly the biggest reason why a lot of public sector projects do fail is that the comprehension of what risk is and, and how it can enable a project is largely missing and deliberately so in, in, in certain extents. So for me, trying to build that understanding and, and try to deliver that aha moment that we're not talking about something bad here. We're talking about knowing the road ahead of you so that you
can avoid the potholes. That becomes pretty, pretty satisfying to me and, and ultimately becomes satisfying to the people that I've worked with as well, because they realize that a, they kind of dropped one compliance exercise right that now they're, everything they're doing is strategic in nature. And secondly, it can enable them to, to aim a lot higher. It's, it's not about let's scale things back it, it's really about let's, let's still aim for those moon shots.
But we have to know what we're getting into and being able to, to build in some plans to, to, to deal with whatever comes to us. So for me, that was the most inspiring part of having a lot of these conversations. And now, you know, now that I've, well, we keep talking about it, but now we kind of shed that, that audit title. And so the, the defensiveness kind of comes down a little bit too. And we can talk more as peers as opposed to, as I mentioned, two sides of the table.
Oh, in, in just the last, you know, 3 or 4 minutes. You've calmed me down from that, the tie of that term. But yes, I, I can see how that would translate really well into
that sector. Was there something about working with the public service organizations just in general that from your experience previously and then translating now into your own business, is there something about that group that you were really thinking, this is the group I want to help and target with, with getting them to where they need to be? Well, partly because I mean, I know the guts of of the public
sector, right? I've again, again, one of the advantages of my previous roles was that I had to know the entire organization inside and out there. There are kind of silos that they could do certain things exceptionally well and that's really what they focus on for, if not that job, maybe even in their entire careers. But for me, top down, do a, a massive dive into every corner. So I, I, I know how not only the areas operate, but how they
operate with each other. So I, I, I kind of know all those, that, all the squeaky wheels in the organization and how those translate into, into successes or failures #1. Secondly, there are, I'd say that there are a lot of universal risk. And we talked about people being one of them. For sure. There are a lot of risks that are unique to the public sector. So the political you know, enablement or insurance, however you wanna call it, that's huge. Lots of people shifting all the
time. So one project leader leading, you know, a long term project from start to finish. It's almost never happens. And that would apply to so many senior staff members as well, even the heads of the organization, they might be in and out, you know, once every year or two years. And plus we get the central funding, we get the massive oversight, all these different elements that by themselves aren't necessarily unique to just the public service, but they're amplified when they,
when they all come together. And so that can be pretty suffocating. And, and you know, very often there is this reputation that people have or that they assume that the public sector should have is, is that, you know, well, they're slow, they don't work hard, they don't think
things through. They, you know, on and on and on and on and on. And while I'm not going to say that every single individual in public sector is, is a superstar, of course, there are tons of exceptionally talented and bright people who work much longer than a lot of people I know in the private sector throughout, you know, through the days, through the weeks, through the weekends, and especially in the executive ranks. I mean, that's free, right? They're working for free.
They're just dedicated to putting in all that extra effort to get some across the finish line. And another unique thing is we talked about all the oversight and the impositions and the reporting and the tools. The infrastructure very often sets them up to fail. So here they kind of burn themselves out, driving them into themselves into exhaustion, really caring about delivering important results for for citizens, for taxpayers. And it doesn't get there. And they're kind of lost.
They're wondering what happened. I couldn't have worked harder. My team couldn't have worked harder. Everybody said we were doing a great job and it didn't get across the finish line. And so I have no answers. And you know, that can be very demoralizing. So so the flip side of that is it can be very inspiring if we can figure out what the problem is and turn that fading or failing project into a success. You know, what you do and the way you've described it sounds like a lot of fun.
So for folks who you know are interested, they're listening to our conversation. They're not too familiar with audit and risk and how that weaves into project leadership and the roles that you can have. What would you say to those folks, you know, as our parting as my parting question? And if you have any parting advice for for the audience in terms of if they're listening and they're thinking, man, what Matthew does, that sounds like a lot of fun.
How could I get into that? I'm currently a project manager, project leader, and I want to do that. Do you have any advice for that part of our audience? Well, I just reach out to if they do have interest in, in either audit or risk management, is that that's what you're asking if people have interest in that? Yeah, if they do just reach out to their to their team.
So if, if you're in an organization large enough, just reach out to the internal audit group or the risk management group or, or whatever they might be called there. Because one of the, the, the big pushes when we talk about PMI, the IAA is the same thing for, for auditors and, and they love the notion of, of sharing competency.
So you coming in, doing a year, going back to a regular job, that type of thing, because again, understanding is the biggest, biggest driver because a project leader going into to something like audit risk management, they learn that side of it, but they're also teaching, right.
And so again, when we have people with very fixed careers, auditors, risk managers, if that's what they're doing from the time they graduate right through their, their careers, they might not have that exposure to what it means to run into real hard realities on the fly that kind of came out of nowhere for them. It's, it's a theoretical, it's a paper exercise. And you know, should have done this, should have, should have, should have. Sometimes life just doesn't work that way.
And so the more that project leaders can educate them as well, then it's a sharing of knowledge, building of competence, sharing of capacity. And it's a it's, it's a win, win and win for the organization as well. Absolutely true synergy in the way that you put it. So I appreciate that. So Matthew, that will do it for our time today. I honestly, I could probably talk to you for another half hour.
So before I take the rest of your day, if folks do want to continue the conversation with you, where can they find you
online? Well, one of the guides that I put together sums up a lot of what we talked about, a lot of these hidden risk, and so developed a short, Quick guide called The Seven Red Flags of Failing Projects That Most Leaders Miss. It's a succinct guide with some concrete actions that can be taken if leaders are encountering issues, especially in the public sector, and that can be found at projectredflags.com. It's a free download and you'll find it there
projectredflags.com. And thank you for sharing of your tools. Yeah, I'll make sure all the relevant links to Matthew are in the description of this podcast as well. You can follow the Everyday PM or myself, I'm on LinkedIn and the Everyday PM podcast is on all of your podcasting platform. So make sure you drop us a comment or feedback on what you thought of today's conversation as well as subscribe to the podcast for future episodes.
So that will do it for Matthew 9 for this installment of the Everyday PM podcast. Thank you for listening and until next time, take care.