Draymond Green Show - Shane Battier

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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show. This next guest I am extremely honored to have on the show. I played au growing up with the family and we were practice well. Before I played with the family, I played with the Michigan Mustangs. But then I played with the family and we would practice at Detroit Country Day. And this guy right here is one of one of two guys who I'll say built Detroit Country Days. Jim

Shane Battier. Welcome to the show, my friend.

And my brother.

I appreciate you, thanks, thanks for thanks for having me on. You know, the resume. You know, I tell my kids, now, I used to be somebody. So when I hear my resume, it makes me feel good because my kids don't believe I used to be pretty good.

You know What's funny, Oddly enough, I have a seven year old son, and he likes to raise me. He telled me like, you're oh you're slow, daddy, You're slow. And I'm like, dude, I'm still out there running up and down the course. So I can only imagine what you have to do with.

Oh my gosh, I coach high school basketball. My son is a sophomore. It is fifteen years old, and uh, you know I had to, you know, grab these kids by the collar a couple of times this year and say, just trust me. If if it worked against cold, it's gonna it's gonna works for you, all right, Just just trust me.

Trust me on this.

Absolutely. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. But I mean, just going back to high school. Obviously just mentioned Detroit Country Day. What was that experience like for you going to Country Day. I know I read some stuff in the book which we'll get into, but just like, share that experience with me. I have actually one of my best friends in the world, Benny Fowler, went to Detroit Country Day. Grew up going over to Dumar's house and you know, they all went to Country Day.

Just shared that experience with me for starters.

Yeah, well, it's funny.

You know.

I grew up in Birmingham suburb of Detroit, and I had never heard of Chris Webber when I was growing up, you know, even though he went to school for fifteen minutes away and I loved you know, I love basketball obviously, and it wasn't until he went to Michigan and I was in seventh grade my first year Country Day, that I knew about Chris Webber, which is kind of weird and the only reason I went to Country Day.

It was a great academic school. Obviously.

My mom said, no, you want to go to Country Day, and I know what Country Day it was. I was just was a kid who like playing sports, and she's like, it'said school that has a really good football stadium right there in thirteen mile Road. I'm like, oh, really, yeah, you know that's back when I played football. So that's why I went to Country Day. But it was, you know, it was a great place for me because you know, even though I was from Birmingham, you know, I cut

People wanted to win, right, and so we had a lot of success.

So we had we had we won three state championships, you know, only lost about seven or eight times. We had you know, seven eight guys played in college, guys who play in the NFL and everywhere that you look at someone who wanted to do big things. And so like for me, like people always saw a country day. It was you know, you know, preppy kids from from the suburbs of Detroita. But like the people just wanted

You know.

I got to play with both Chris Weber's little brothers, Jason and David, and uh, you know two of my favorite people teammates they were they were unbelievable, and you know, those battles we had a Country day, and they were some of the toughest practice I ever had throughout my entire basketball career.

That's incredible. So tell me this.

I'd be remiss if I didn't ask this question because my heart bleeds green. Why do by the way, at a time where Matteen cleveses at Michigan State, Morris Peterson's at Michigan State, Charlie Bells at Michigan State, why do go for Michigan State.

I can guess the academics, but I'm sure rus deep.

True, true story, and I love it is. And I tell this this, I tell you, tell us to his face. He messed up, you know, being recruited by by everybody, and is it just got the job at Michigan State.

I liked is.

You know, I'm like, man, this guy is he's legit, he's got it.

It is messed up.

One day it came to me, said Shane, and you know this, we had the best weight staff in the Big Ten. Okay, we're gonna put forty pounds of muscle on you and you're gonna be the baddest power forward the Big Ten. And then I got Dean Smith and Coach k say, no, man like you're a small Ford man, you got shoot threes. I'm like, I'm of those guys. So that was the reason why that was like the mainer. I didn't want to be power forward. I didn't want to. I didn't want to, you know, put forty pounds and

That truth.

Truth is so interesting to me because I came into college as a power forward, right, and now I'm looking at all of these things like, wait, this guy's too small to be a power for. He needs to be a small for. So ironically I start at a small Ford position. And where do we play. We're playing at Cameron Indoor. We're playing against Kyrie Irving. That's one of the six games Kyrie Iver had and he had thirty

That's funny, Well it's funny.

I mean obviously, like I think you and I are two the originators of the of small ball four.

I mean absolutely.

I mean it's whether you can't first or I can't say, well whatever, we we were the first, like small forwards became power forwards, and now the game is obviously so change and it's positionless. But like the ability to guard a four and no matter how small you are, that that that's the skeleton key man. I mean, obviously one of the greatest defenders of in NBA history. And you could go you guarded one through five. Literally they say like one through five, but you could guard one through five.

But like what your.

Special skill was was you're able to get up and these leverage you know, against seven.

Footers who are way about to And it's not.

About strength, it's just about like knowing how to use your body, knowing about angles, knowing leverage and like and so like you know, I don't I look back in my high school days, I was a back to the basket five but I learned how to do that, and so when I transitioned to be a small four in the league and a two guard for a majority of my career, I never lost that and like that was that's the skill that unlocks everything. So for these young guys, you know, they want to step out, shoot threes and

Am I right at one thousand percent?

It's crazy because you'll see young guys now and to your point, they don't have a they don't have a clue of how to guard the posts. And Herr's to take it even a step further, people stop teaching post defense because god start posting up. Well, now the game is changing back and you're starting to get guys posting up again, and no one knows how to play post defense anymore, and especially when you get guys coming from college.

You just can't guard that way.

And so it's interesting that you say that because I think the key actually to my career, and to your point, the key to my career was that my whole life, I was the biggest guy in SACONAF.

So my uncle had me dribbling.

The basketball coach Speedy told me, like, man, you can't just be a five.

But my whole life I will play the five.

Now, I play the point guard offensively and post up some and bring the ball up the court and make plays.

But I played the five. So you when once the.

NBA turned a small ball, you'd see teams like, oh, that guy is six six sixty seven too, will put him at the five. But my whole life I learned how to anchor a defense because I played the five, you know, And so uh, to your point, I think that's a great thing for young guys to learn how to guard to post, on, how to guard pick and rolls.

Yeah, I mean we play for two of the best you know, college coaches of all time and coaches coach K two that that that didn't hurt. But you know, the ability to guard, you know, pick and roll, be able to switch off on pick and roll, you know, to do every single coverage. You know, like you just don't see guys who are that defensively just you know, versatile and have the IQ to be able to do

Man, you don't know how surreal this is for me right now and growing up and just listen, hearing your name and knowing you was from Michigan into doing this interview right now is blowing my mind.

So thank you.

Before we move away from your early days, something and Michael Lewis wrote in two thousand and nine article that the inner city kids who who you play AAU with treated you like a suburban kid with a white game, and the suburban kids who you played with during the regular season treated you like a visitor from the planet where.

They kept black people.

How was that navigating for you? You the only child out of school with a black father and a white mother. Like, how was that at Like we're now twenty years removed from that. Stuff has moved far away than twenty years though. How was that for you then? Having to deal with that, you.

Know, Drey, it was.

It was the hardest thing I ever had to deal with as a kid, but it was the best thing ever happened to me. Right, I never belonged anywhere ever ever. You know, I grew grew up in Birmingham, but we were poor. I mean, you know, I still remember what the government cheese sandwich tastes like. Like I never had people, you know, from my school to my house that we had like holes in the in the roof when when it rained, you know, I was putting pots underneath the

And it wasn't even about like what I did. I was like, what do I.

Need to do to help my team my friends win and and so that was my entire game from my literally from my kindergarten all the way to my last day in the NBA.

It was just like, man, I gotta just gotta win. I just got to win.

And so, you know, I had no want to talk to you know, this is before the days you know, mental health was even was even invented, right, so no one's talking about like the anxiety or depression back in the eighties. You know, you just kind of suck it up. And my parents can understand, my friends couldn't understand that. It's felt like alone and isolated. But the one place I made people respect me on the basketball court. And so, uh,

And it's always it's always about winning.

Man, It's all the matters. If you win, doesn't matter who you are. And so that was the hallmark of my entire career. So it was the hardest thing I ever had to deal with as a kid, but it was it was made me who who I am today still.

Winning cures all, I want to get into an early part of your career. I know everyone talks about the Miami Heat days, and rightfully, so that's why you want a championship and that's always going to be the most respected and we'll get into that, but I want to talk about something in your career that I thought had a huge impact on your career, and I just want to know your take on it.

Playing with y'all.

Mean in Houston, you end up with seven or eight signature shoes with a Chinese shoe company, one of the first guys to sign over with the Chinese shoe company. How was that plan with y'all and what impact did it have on you outside of the game of basketball because his brand was so big and reached so far.

Yeah.

Man, First of all, y'all, y'all was one of the best teammates of all time. And you know, you talk about a guy who worked, who cared, who brought it every single day and never made excuses.

I mean it was a superstar.

I mean, he's ever every teammates dream, every coach's dream. You know, you saw how much stress he put on himself to carry really, like, you know, two billion hopes and dreams of his countrymen in China on his shoulders. And he did it with amazing grace. And even though he could never really stay healthy enough to sustain a long career.

I mean, man, he was, he was.

He was so good as a teammate, you know, like Y'ao could never really train in the summer, so he was always kind of like out of shape when he showed up the camp. But by by Christmas he finally got in shape. And for like two months, man, like I'm telling you, like Prime Shack, like Dwight, how we're young, they could they couldn't do anything with him. I mean, he was like the best player on the planet. And then he got tired after about that two month run

I love him. Uh.

Secondly, he brought me to a place in the world I never thought I would I'd be you know, every kid dreams about having their own shoe.

And when I signed with Houston, Pete came to me and said, hey, we want you to be there.

You're are international spokesperson. I never heard of Pete all right, and I'm like, all right, Like paining American dollars is the time when like Nike did this, they weren't paying anything.

So I'm like, all right, yeah, cool.

So for ten years, I went to China every year and tour of the country, and I've seen every part of China.

And really learned to, you know, love love.

Just the people of China because they just they love hoops, man, they love hoops. They're knowledgeable, they love family, love education, all things that you know I was about. And so you know, I've done everything in Like I'm way more famous in China to this day than I have in America, not even close. Like I hosted the Chinese version of

And so like the.

Things I saw in China, it was it was nuts, but it was it was a great experience for ten years, and I have y'ata thanks.

Do you ever go back there now and do some things there now or have you not been back?

I haven't been back since since COVID. When I go back, you know, it's when you go to China, everyone has a nickname. And at the time, you know, President Obama was was the president, and because the way I talk and I'm white skinned, my nickname is mister President. And so every city I go to have a press conference and people be like, mister President, mister President, you know, how do you find Shanghai? And I always say, you know, it has the best beer and the best looking women.

You know.

Then I go to ching Tao, mister President, how do you find chin Dau?

You know it's got the best beer and you know, the best looking women, And so I laughed. So I still walk down the street sometimes and someone from trying to say, hey, mister President, I'm fans of you.

So I'll look forward to going back someday.

That's incredible And speaking to y'aw you also obviously t Mac was was a part of those teams as well. We had t Mac actually on the show last year and we spoke about winning and health and the different things. What was that like during those years of where you guys couldn't quite get over the hump of getting out of the first round and the beating that you were watching tam Mac take due to that, but all of you guys had to deal with that.

What was that like?

Yeah, that was that was the hardest part.

That's probably the worst part of my NBA career, just not being able to have a real you know, NBA championship run. We had the talent, you know, it's never seemed like we had the right health. And my first year in Houston, you know, I'll never forget losing Game seven at home.

It's hard.

You know, I'd never been to that situation where I thought we're gonna win and we're up, you know, four or five points in two minutes, going to lose the game to Utah. That was a really good Utah team with with Booze and and and d will live and occur, but they're they're to lose Game seven at home. Man, that that really stung. And like you always like assuming like, oh man, we're we're going it back, and we just never did.

We never did.

And one year Team Mac was hurt and we actually beat Portland and then lost in the second round. But you know, it was tough. T Mac was unbelievable. Man.

He was so talented.

And again he had some injuries, so he wasn't as explosive as he was earlier in his career. But I'll tell you what about t Mac. He's the best passer ever played with. I mean, yeah, like people don't give him credit for his passing. He was an amazing scorer, and he was explosive and and all that, but man, he was like he always put it, you know, on time, on target.

You know.

I used to yell at Lebron and d Way and I'm like, dude, like you want to assist hit me in the chest and maybe throwing it at my ankles or Team Ac never missed the pass.

Never, And so.

Yeah, that's the one part of Team Act that I always say, like you have to give Hi him his flowers. He's the best, one of the best passers of our generation.

Wow, that's interesting to play with Lebron James. I would have never guessed that Lebron.

Lebron used to throw the ball to my ankles and take me off my shot. You brought triple doubles. Hit me in the chest. I'll make a shot. I can't. I can't. I can't promise you. If you hit me over, you got you got better.

But d Wade and Lebron, that's like those That's that's the thing that drove me crazy about them.

It was as great as they were.

That's hilarious. That's hilarious. That leads us, That leads us into our next topic. You joined the heat Lebron second year there, which they were coming off of finals loss. What was the energy like going in there with you know, the Heatles team who was expected to be everything and now they just lost in the finals to a Dalas Maverick team who they were way more talented than expected to kind of run through run the first two games and then lose forward in a row.

What was the energy like what you going in there after that?

Well, first of all, like I was like everybody else when when the Big three came together, I was rolling my eyes like, oh, come on, man, like really really.

You know.

And so like I was playing Houston and I got traide to Memphis and I was like, come on, man, it's like this calm down like, you know. So I was, I was like everybody else. But as soon as they lost to Dallas. I was my first time I was ever a free agent in my career, and I'm like, huh, I have never won a championship. They're going to win a championship. I should go to Miami. And that was my thinking. And so when I got there, and I was always like, I'm not a Miami guy, Like that's not who I am.

I'm from you know, Midwest.

I'm from Detroit, like, and you know, the thing that struck me about that team was I think they learned a lot and they really got humbled by Dallas. And the edge that that team had going back the next year, I've never seen a team like that. I'll never forget Ring Night. It was after the lockout, so first game Christmas Christmas Night in Dallas, Ring Night, and like those guys didn't want to see the Dallas get the rings.

We're back in the tunnel, back.

There in Dallas and you could just see them everyone just just so angry and like the edge you can feel just like oh man, I look around, I'm like, oh man, we win in this, winning this And we came out and we beat Dallas pretty good and and uh you know that night, you know, I got the plane. I'm like, oh we're winning, We're winning. But like that,

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Code word green gr ee n for twenty dollars off. Download game Time Today, Last minute tickets, lowest price guarantee. One thing that I thought was big and what it looked like and I'm and Harris, what iut my question would be to you? As it seemed like one thing that really got that team over the hump and allowed that team to take off was it seemed as if d Wade kind of took a back seat, like Bron, listen, it's you'll show you go, I'll second fiddle in the

Was that something that y'all discussed. Was it just like it just kind of come out, you know.

I think if you if you saw that team the year before and the lost to Dallas, there wasn't good flow and it was almost like they were afraid to stop on each other's toes, right, So it was like d Wade's turn, then it was Lebron's turn, and it was CB's turn, like and so like from basketball standpoint, it just seemed like they're always like fightening each other, right, So I think they came back the next year, and like d Wade is like he's one of the most

It's funny because I actually use this analogy like one of the keys, one of the main key Star Championship is this, and Maverick Maverick will use this example Maverick Carter. Maverick will say, I'm really type with math, and Mav will say, man, I have a lot of respect for Clay. And this is when we're going through the runs, he said, I have a lot of respect for Clay. I'm like, man, tough as nails, right, like he shoots the light size of the ball.

And MAV's like, yeah, but no.

The reason I have a ton of respect for Clay is, he said, because every night, every night, two guys walking to the bar and it's Steph, it's Klay Thompson. And every night Steph say, all right, there you see them two girls. I'm taking the pretty girl and you gotta take the ugly girl, he said, And every night Clay say, all right, I'll take the ugly girl.

Let's go and take one for the team.

He's like, because as great as shoot as Clay is, he go on guard the best player and yet he's never going to get the credit that Steph was Not one time did he ever complain about it. Not one time did he ever feel like, ah, man, I need to be this or I need to do that. Always confident in himself, always comfortable in his own skin, didn't care what anybody else had to say.

And to me, that set a tone for the team.

Because you're the second best player on the team, you're the second option, and you take that approach every single night. How can anyone else take a different approach?

You know?

And I think that was to your point, that was huge for us, Like just Clay's demeanor and willing to like talked about it with Chris Paul, Clay going to guard Chris Paul, and Clay going to guard Kyrie Irving and like all these guards, he could be like, no, I don't want to guard those guys.

That stuff was every.

Single night he did that, and it made such a difference in our team.

It was for the better.

I tell young guys all the time, I say, look, no one has ever asked me how many points you know did you score in your career? Couldn't tell you, like, you know how many points you have in the finals game seven, Shane. You know, no one's ever asked me that, No one ever. They get two questions about my career. They say, where do you keep your rings? And how do you decide which one you want.

To wear that day? Right?

And so like when you win, they don't care about your stats. They just care that you were part of that team. And they care that you were You're champion and that's forever. Like what you did in that moment, you may have hit.

A big shot, but like no one cares about your stats, and so you.

Want to be remembered when and be a part of it and be on the floor and and legacy, that's like legacy takes care of itself. It ate about the stats and the numbers you put up.

One hundred percent was have you played with a player as good or against a player as good as Lebron was? Like that twenty really that twenty eleven, twelve, twenty twelve, twenty thirteen season where he was really out of this world.

He was, let me tell you what, man for as good as you think he he was, he was that much better. Look you know, and I'm and I'm biased, I'm biased.

I know this. People saying Lebron or MJ.

I said, you know, what Lebron did something twice that I don't think Michael Jordan could ever do. Once he won two NBA titles. Shane Battier's is starting power forward, all right, So that's it. That's you know, I'm biased, but I don't think you know, I love Mike, you know, we're the greatest of all time. But Lebron did it twice with me as his mom ass power forward and dragged me across the finish line. That that that speaks

He always grabbed the mic.

He always sang, you know, stuff like that matters to a teammate, and so will I will always you know, I'll always stand for for for Bron.

That's my guy.

That was a There was a young guy in the twenty twelve two thousand was a thirteen season that I hit this first game winner.

Oh you guys walk off in Miami. Yep. I felt really good about it.

I remember that I messed I messed up that coverage, right. It still haunts me. I always proud of myself on always thinking and doing the right thing.

And it was it was a switch.

I was guarding you, actually, and Steph was coming off a screen and I prematurely switched off and I shouldn't have. I stayed home and you slipped and finished in d way. Just looked at me like what are you doing? And I was, oh, so now I was so hot. I'll never forget that as long as I live. That's the only time I think I messed up at the end of the game when it would it mattered defensively.

In my entire career, and it still haunts me to this day.

Ironically ironically enough, though ironically enough, I don't think I would have gotten open on the slip if anyone else was guarding me, because you're so ahead of the play, right, You're like, oh, I know Steph is coming off and it really in the reality, it should just be a simple red someone else, what would a would a mester red up and Steph would have came off open, And you're so ahead of the place, So it actually worked with my benefit that.

You were on me and was so forced. That was a highlight for me.

By the way, when I had the lay up, I was telling myself like, oh, I'm about to walk off, man, I ran with my hands up.

Such a great moment for me.

But but you know, and just speaking of playing with Lebron and you were called a Kobe stopper, uh, and you've talked about being stuck on Kobe Island before.

Don't start that, man, my Instagram feed. Man, don't start that talk.

But what what what what do you think?

What do you think differentiated Kobe from everyone else? Like there were obviously other tough covers, Paul Pierce, a tough cover you played before you played with d Wayde d Way was a tough cover before you played with Bron Brown was a tough What made Kobe so much tougher to cover than all those other guys?

You know? And I did not like Kobe. We were frenemies.

We had this like weird, passive aggressive like relationship. I never spoke to him outside of the gym, but there was no one I respect him more for his for his mind. Look, this guy was relentless, relentless, you know. And I, you know, people ask me, like, what do you miss about playing? And I said, you know, getting in the bus and having those butterflies in my stomach, going to Staples Center, being like, man, this guy's this guy's gonna try to score sixty on me tonight. He's

The next day he wouldn't even wouldn't even look at me right And the next time he'd be like, oh, man, what's going on?

And so like he was always like ice and fire with me, just trying to throw me off. And I had the same mentality. I never looked him in the eye, you know, I just was I never said I can't guard Kobe. He's so much better than me. And so in Mama Mentality he wrote about this, and I didn't read about this Leptore's passing, and his passing really affected me. So I always thought, I have this time to have this conversation with him. So when he passed, it really

Him absolutely, which brings me to my next question. I'd be remiss if I hadn't access because it's something that really gets under my skin.

And you just mentioned it.

Everyone nowadays people have a good game and they're like, yeah, I channeled the Mamba mentality, and I'm just like, don't stop it.

They don't do that like that's that's not okay.

And by the way, if Kobe was still alive, I don't think y'all would be saying that, because Kobe will call you out and tell you that's actually not it.

But like, what do you make of all of these people going on TV?

Like, yeah, I got the Mampa mentality, I'm doing this, Like what do you make of that?

Well, look, you know, Kobe inspired generations. All these young guys came out. They grew up on watching Kobe, you know, him hitting those jumpers and making big shots, and so to them, like that's their dream. Like you know, you and I watched you know, the Pistons and Isaiah and jod and and you know all these guys and bad boys. That's that's what inspired us. All these guys are inspired by Kobe.

And so.

You know, in this Instagram world, you know, you think you know somebody just by watching him and all, yeah, I'm gonna be that guy.

But like, there's only.

One code, you know, and there's only only one person that puts in the work and understands the sacrifice, understands the discipline, understands you know, every single night what it takes right and to me, that's what mama mentality is. It's it's a relentless pursuit of excellence. And it's not about like, you know, having a big game. It's about like, this is this is who I am every single time

See, you said that better than I could ever said it, because you know what I said, I hate that ship. I hate when people say that, But you said, you put that better than I've ever heard it put. It's about that pursuit of excellence every single night because people don't understand that, like when you got to do it night in and night out.

These young guys come in.

To the league and they like, I want his spot, I want that thing, I want this money, that contract, And.

When you have to do that every single night.

On a soft Monday, and you know, who got the worst record.

Detroit got the worst record in the league.

Right now, on a soft Monday, soft Tuesday, you rolling into Detroit, it's two below outside, and you got to go do that. You know, Like, then where's that mama mentality?

Then?

So I definitely can appreciate that throughout your career and guarding Kobe, you guard it, and I think we all can agree there were different versions of Kobe, right Like you had twenty four, you had eight. You had Kobe that you know, people never really talk about it, but you did have Kobe that sometimes will come out and like, I'm getting my teammates involved and make a concerned effort to like get everybody involved and get double just assists, and you got Kobe that's come out to your point

Well, look, you know I came in the league when the Lakers, you know, we're doing it. That's when they had their dynasty, and it was a different game, all right, And dude, like people know how dominant Shaq was, but like when Shaq was in prime Shack. There was no stop him in like the entire world, right circle of two thousand and two, two thousand and three, Right, So every game plan the Lakers had it was like how

So like you know, and buying them and and those and l O and those guys.

I mean, he was a handful because not only was he like you know, had that much more knowledge, and he was in his physical peak, but like he had an edge that he's going to show everybody that like this is about the Lakers or my my, my franchise, not.

Shacks, right, And so he just was a monster. Just was a monster.

And that was the toughest Kobe to guard because he was so hungry and he was playing for greatness, not just to win championship.

And at the end, you.

Know, obviously, uh, you know, he was still doing it, you know, and he was a handful. He didn't have the talent around him as much. So that was that was my favorite Kobe. A little easier to go, but still a monster. Absolutely.

I saw that you want you said when you play against him, it was like the ultimate chess match. And for me, who liked to view myself a lot in your laying, you know where I can think the game and I have to use my brain to get one step ahead. I may not be as fast as this guy, or may not jump as high as this guy, but I'm gonna play harder than you, and I'm gonna outthink you. And you speak about that being an ultimate chess game, would you say Kobe was the it was the guy throughout your.

Career that that was like d one.

There was no one else that you had to play chess with because for most people, I'm sure a lot like myself, you can out chest them no problem.

Then Kobe was that one like tough.

Yeah yeah, I mean, look, I would put in terms of just mental guys who mentally that were just a monster to guard. You know, I put Manu in that category, right, he was a monster just mentally. Dirk was was a monster. Uh you know Paul Pierce was you know you said.

Earlier he was. He was a really tough cover for me.

Man I struggled guarding Paul with Paul was super crafty, strong head it all.

God Lee, I chased around Ai.

You know, a I was like a monster when I when I was a rookie, I played two guard had to chase him around and he was like so smart because he was small but like so fast and uh you know. So there was a select few guys that you just knew every night, like man, you gotta like you got to be here.

You got to be here.

Yeah, it's hard work, but you got to be here every single play. And that was that was then part you know with Kobe, like you know, as analytics came in the game, and like I got to learn, you know,

That's not me.

So like you just learn with certain guys like okay, look, I'm taking my medicine. If he has jumpers, nothing you can do.

He's that good.

And once you do that enough and over the course of a season, over the course of a career, you know, that's that's how you stay away from like the huge, huge games.

Game after game.

These guys are gonna bang you on the head every now and then, but at least you get a fighting chance to to help your team and keep those guys under control.

It was almost like you know, I know you as you try to make them take the tough long twos. You was on the analytics before it's a real thing, and now you know, and transition into life after playing basketball, you've kind of gone in that direction. How would you say you were using that in a sense then but didn't quite know or were you already aware of it and was using it then?

No, I got to learn that in Houston, you know, from Sam Hanky, Daryl Morey and you know the way that they talked about analytics to me, which made sense. I like, I like playing blackjack, and they're like, you got to think about basketball like blackjack. Right, when you get dealt pocketasis, what do you do? You always split them right ten times out of time because that gives you the best chance to win that hand.

Now does that guarantee you you're gonna win that hand?

No, you know, get bad cards, dealer hits twenty whatever, But like it gives you the best chance, right, and so like there's everything about basketball is the same way you said, like givers put yourself in a position to give yourself a chance of having success, whether you have success or not, it doesn't matter.

You did what's right.

You split the aces right, you made them take long jumpers. And so, you know, I became so focused on process, so focused on what should have happened, and I didn't care about what did happen actually, And that's like opposite of how we're taught to play sports, right, we're so judging, we're judging the results. And for me, it was judging the process and did I get my did I split the aces or did I hit on you know, you.

Know, saw seventeen whatever.

And so when you are so focused on process, it sets you free. It sets you free because you know you did the right thing and if you do the right thing enough, good things happened to you. And so that's how I was able to stay in along the league as long as I didn't have success, even though it was slow, couldn't jump, it couldn't move.

So and now no one what analytics are today and your career did you have? Were you born ten years too early? Because if you were born ten years later, yes, I can raise my hand. Analytics gonna take you to it even further place. Because it helped me a ton, Like every night it's not going to be the twenty points for me. Right, it's not every night, it's not going to be fifteen assists. But analytics actually allows you to see a different story.

So I'm gonna say thank you for that.

Yeah, you're you know, I'm always half for my brothers gets paid, all right, I have no I'm not one of those bitter old guys and say, oh man, yeah those guys are overpriably.

Hey, it's a wonderful thing. It's a wonderful thing. But yes, I do.

Wish sometime I played about ten years later, you know, I'll probably be a bit much bigger jerk.

Now, I gotta be a nice guy. I gotta be a nice guy.

Absolutely.

You're the former VP of analytics some basketball development for the Heat.

How do you feel the team changed? You know, the Heat is an old culture.

It's pat Riley leading the charge and Eric Spolcher who's understudy for pat Riley. Uh, dating back probably thirty plus years now, how how do you think that the team changed under your watching the analytical view that you brought to that team and working with that front office staff.

Look, I like the Heat, you know, because they've had thirty years success, right and what Pat Pat's done was sposed on you just can't teach, right. And so I when I was hired to run analytics, I didn't go in there saying, oh, like you got to you got to listen to my numbers and.

And you know you're doing it the wrong way. No, no, no, Like I.

Think that when you have data, it can always help kind of the eyeball test and and and add to the process. And so that's what I just try to do. I try to build a platform and a team that could uh just sort of uh support Pat Riley and and Eric Spolstra and just give them one more you know, one more tool to assess talent, put together a roster play the game of basketball.

And that's that's what analytics is.

Like the best, the best teams, they have the human element, they have the the math element, and they combine the two. All right, it's not all analytics, it's not all eye tests. Just to see this in business now, the companies that can can marry data and people, that's who wins. And that's just that's just the era that.

We live in.

Absolutely, Uh is y'a aultimate goal? You want to be a GM one day? No?

No, but you know, I coached high school basketball this year and and uh I coached my son is a pretty good ball player. And so uh we're actually transferring. We're moving to Charlotte, and uh, I'm gonna retire from coaching and just be it, just be a dad. And so right now I'm an advisor for the Miami Heat. And that's probably the closest I'll ever get to the GMC. You know, I like, I like Washington from Afar. I'm doing a lot of consulting now. I'm in business. I

By the way, Mike has been incredible, man, he has been absolutely amazing.

I'm happy we have.

I've won him for many many years and in my wedding and we have weekly calls to you know, to break it all down. So he's he's gonna win a championship as a GM sooner than later.

Absolutely, did did you come to that conclusion? Or yeah, I mean did you come to when you were the VP? Of analytics that you didn't want to be a GM or initially did you think you want to do that?

I didn't know. I think in the back of my mind, I thought I could do the job.

And you know, I obviously know the game, and you know, when I got in there, there's just so much in

You know, that's just me.

And so, you know, utilizing your brain in a different way, thinking about different problems you know that you never thought of before, helping people in ways you never thought possible. Like, that's that's what excites me now. And I still love basketball, I'm still connected to it, but it's just fun to challenge yourself in a different way and grow in a different way, and and try to be a champion in a different way.

Absolutely, what do you think, knowing what you know about this game, You've obviously had an up close picture of it. Out of Miami Heat, they go to the NBA Finals, sweat two of the last three years. What do you think that team needs to do that really get over the hump? I felt like the last couple of years they've been there, everybody's just like all right, you know they don't have a chance to win, and then they

Just got to make shots, man, they say, like, you know, I was talking to a GM last year and they said, you know, the Heat had a great strategy last year. Miss all the three pointers they took in the first half, but make them all in the second half.

You know, that makes a big difference. You know, it's a make mis league.

We know the Heat they're going to be you know, well coached, They're going to play their ass off, They're going to play great defense. Right, they got tough players, they got all star players, they got Hall of Fame players on their roster right. So much of this league is do you make shots? You know, and especially you know, three point shots. And we haven't had the best shooting year this far, but if you get hot the right time, like they have last couple of years in the playoffs, man,

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, a couple more before we get out of here. I'll be remiss if I didn't accident You mentioned them earlier about the legendary coach k obviously had the chance to play against him. I also had the chance to play for coach k for for a team USA we want the Olympic gold medal in twenty.

Sixteen in Rio.

Obviously that's a whole I'm sure an entirely different coach k Uh than the coach k that coach shoot Who's who's out front? Very quiet now, you know, calm, But from what I've heard from guys that played for Duke, you get behind them closed doors, and coach k Is you'll.

You talked to me about you tell me your experience, you know, like your perception of I played for him, So what was your perception going into Rio and the Olympic cycle versus what you think of him or how you know him now.

So my perception going into Rio was that like he was going to be super tough, like kind of all in your face, And he wasn't that, Like he was kind of more philosophical in a sense. Now, what I did love about Coach k and what stood out to me more than anything, was the pride he had for the shield, the USA shield, the pride that he took in that everything everything we did was about the USA shield. You're playing offense for that shield, you're playing defense for

So by that point I played in his first international team two thousand and six World Championships. Now that is the only time he lost. We lost to Grease in the semi finals, and he learned a lot. He learned a lot. So I think, you know, Mellow is the wrong word. But he he learned how to deal with you know, Hall of Fame players much better than maybe

We're not going to accept anything less than this. And as long as we.

Play to those standards, like wins takes care of themselves. And that was you know, we won one hundred and thirty one games and lost fifteen in my four years, and we didn't talk about, hey, we have to win this game once. It was about we have to play to the standard a duke basketball. And every person that came through the doors as a freshman, they learned, Okay,

And after I think forty years, a couple of years ago, Coach K stepped down and another one of your Duke brothers takes over, John Shire, who's the head coach?

What after?

And I'll let you get out of here after this, But after coming behind a legendary coach like Coach K, arguably the greatest of all time. But at least one of what is success for John Shira at Duke like? Does he is he expected to live up to what Coach K did? Is success? One championship? Is it getting the final fource? What is success for Duke after following a legendary coach that you all played for.

Yeah, look, John has done an amazing job, all right. First of all, the you know we talk about the brotherhood shield. You know, we're proud of our school and because it's about the standard of playing for something larger than yourself and that that you know, yeah, we'd love to go to final fours and win championships, absolutely, but if the process is right, if it's not short changed, and you the right things, and you got to be a little bit lucky. If you do all these things,

But you know, John's coach is gonna win We're behind him.

I respect that man, Shane.

Like I said before, this is an honor for me growing up in the state of Michigan, always hearing your name, always being able to turn turn on the television and be like, man, that guy comes from here, he made it, we can make it. One of the heroes for me. And so I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. We have you back anytime, but just thank you. This has been a complete honor, a pleasure I learned a time.

Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate.

I appreciate you Grandma. Thanks for representing state of Michigan. And uh, you know one of the like I said, one of the all time greats in the NBA.

Man, you make us proud.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you.