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What's up, everybody, Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show, Snana.
It's always honored to have a guest, but win.
When you have a Hall of Famer NBA champion, one of the goats, you can't help but be thankful and be honored.
And today I have the honor of being joined by two.
Time NBA Champion NBA Finals MVP in nineteen ninety, the year I was born. Such a great year, incredible year, nineteen ninety baby, twelve time NBA All Star, three time All NBA First Team, two time All NBA Second Team, and his number eleven is retired by my hometown, my home state, I should say, Detroit Pistons, Isaiah Thomas, d Isaiah Thomas zeke to go.
Welcome to the Draymond Green Show, my friend.
Thank you, and it is an honor to be here. Awarded shirt just to represent us and we represent for the state of Michigan and appreciate you and thank you for inviting me on your show and proud to be here with you are your talent, your executives, and mom who stepped in in the background earlier right on New.
Media, Yes sir, new Media baby.
By the way, for those of y'all out there listening interview, my mom just stepped to hoped on here for a second before we started. Zeke is my mom's favorite player, obviously growing up in Saginaw, Michigan.
Her teams the Detroit Pistons.
Growing up, Zeke comes and brings us hope, him, Joe Dumars, the bad boys.
They come.
They bring two championships to the state and my mom ever since I can remember, you know, everybody grow up talking about who their favorite player is. Ever since I could remember, my mom talked about Isaiah Thomas.
So this this is huge, This is this is big for me.
But before just getting into it, man, how long have you been working in the NBA. Because you've obviously been a player, you have obviously done TV as you're doing now, you've been front office, you've been a coach. How long has it been that you've been working in the NBA ron.
That's a great question, you know, I I was nineteen when I came in, and actually I played my first games I was twenty, so like maybe forty three years. You know, I'm basket you know, rather playing front office, own and managing TV. I've been a part of the NBA. I'm on my third commissioner now. I started with Larry O'Brien and you're familiar with the Larry O'Brien trophy, and I went to David Stern now Adam Silver. So I've seen a lot and being a former president of the Union,
so I've I've been around a long time. And not only have I been around a long time, but I've seen the growth and the changes that have occurred. And I would encourage you and all of the young fellas are who are coming out. You know, basketball, this career, it can last a long time. It doesn't end when you stop playing. Now, your second career starts and you're on you know you're doing that now. You know you're you're being basketball forty fifty years and that's the goal,
you know, that's the goal for all of us. You know, not to play and then lead, but play, stay and extend and give the knowledge on to the next.
Generation being that you've seen.
And number one, I thank you for that advice.
Uh.
You know, like you said, obviously, I want to set up my path so that I can be a part of this league for a long time. You know, the NBA has done such an incredible job. I think of creating these different avenues that we as players who obviously do our part in growing this game. And I think it's a beautiful thing when you have these different avenues that we can continue in when we're done playing. Because the reality is, you know, for a lot of us,
all you know initially is the NBA. You know, you come out of college, you come into the NBA, and that's all you know. And when you get out of that, so many guys struggle because you don't know anything else. You don't know And I say air quotes, you don't know the real world, you know. I always say, like we do like real work and we have real responsibilities. But the NBA always says a fantasy land, like you get to play basketball every day, you get to hang
around great people. It's not always that way. I've been fortunate enough to be on one NBA team, but the you know, the travel, the hotels, all of these different things, they are greater. And so I always say like it's a fantasy land for us. So, you know, just to your point of staying in this, I think that's an incredible thing.
Yeah.
Absolutely. And and I got some I got some good advice at a very young age. And it actually came from Kareem Abdul Jabbar. It was, you know, our first All Star game and he was sitting there reading a book and nobody you know, was coming up speaking to him or anything. And you know me, I'm I mean, you know me, right, I'm like, hey, So I wound up to it and I just you know, trying to
gain some knowledge, you know. I said, if you can give me any advice you know, coming into this, you know NBA, you know career that I'm getting ready to start, what advice would you give me? And I still hold on to it today. He said, as best you can, try to stay normal, wash your own clothes, iron your clothes, still, do the dishes, still take out trash, you know, do do the things that normal regular people in society do. Because as you just explained, Draymond. It's a fantasy world.
It's a fantasy land in NBA. And when you come out, right, you ain't gonna be on the private plane all the time. You may have to go to the airport. You know, you may have to stand in line, You're gonna have to get your bags out of baggage claim and everything everything that regular people do, right, that's what you should
keep trying to do. And and the second thing I would say along that journey what I figured out, you know, And I think the reason why you know, your mom would say I'm a favorite player, not because of what I did on the basketball court, but what I did off the court, just by showing up in the neighborhood, just by talking to people, just by being regular, right, you know, being an AWFU person, Uh that that carries
a lot of weight. And the thing that you can do, you know, I would say, for yourself and for others who are listening, former players, current players, hey man, just just to try to stay amongst the people, not above the people. Always be one who are amongst the people and never above.
Man. That's wonderful.
Coming from the West Side of Chicago and then getting drafted to the Detroit Pistons. Uh do you do you think that kind of helped your transition in the sense of Detroit being a similar type of city at Chicago and you know, the people being similar, you know, just kind of having that that that's that feel of being at home when you got.
To the city of Detroit.
You know, I'm you know, I'm like you in a lot of ways. We were raised very similar. You know, we didn't we didn't travel outside of our state. We didn't have no money to do it. So, uh, you know, when I first got to Detroit, I knew nobody, and but my mom, just like your mom, had made some phone calls and it was like, hey, they keep my son when she when he when he gets there. And one of the people that she called that I had
no idea that she even had this type of cloud. Right, she called Mayor Coleman Young and said, when my son gets there, I want you to look out for him. So when I get to Detroit, I get a welcome back from from the mayor, you know, from Coleman, and then you know, he he introduced you know, a Rita and everyone. So I always felt and I still feel like this today that I feel like in Michigan, I'm
everybody's cousin, brother, brother. I feel like I'm a family member of everybody, like, and everybody treats me that way. I go back home to Michigan and you know, it's like, hey, I try to check out at the hotel. They say, you don't have to pay. I try to. I try to buy some food in the restaurant. Manager come out say no, that's a me. So it's being from the West Side of Chicago, but then coming to Detroit and feeling in love and being embraced by everybody in Detroit,
and still today it is. It is no place on earth that I get treated better than than when I'm in Detroit.
Man, that's so incredible. That's so incredible. You a lot like myself. I've had the so far had the pleasure and honor of being with one team like yourself. And obviously I'm still playing, but you know, our ownership group has been absolutely amazing. Like I couldn't have asked to play for a team with a better ownership group. And since you've been a Detroit Piston, that's changed.
How have you how?
How how is the reception and like you're treated how you're treated by franchises.
Is that the same? Is it different from.
You know, the owner being who was the owner when you were playing there, Bill Davison and now the owner being timed girls Like, it's that same olive branch still extended to you the way it was when the previous owner was there.
So the olive branch is extended as a as a guest. You're always welcome as a guest. But I'm not. I'm not inside the organization, right and and it's okay because they have work, they have managers, and they have to do their thing. But from from a knowledge standpoint, what I what I think a lot of organizations miss, which
now that I'm in corporate America, they never miss. They never let knowledge and brains walk out of the door, right they they have advised us, consultants, board members, everything else. That historical institutional knowledge never gets to walk out of the door. What happens in the NBA for former players, that knowledge base, it gets to walk out of the door and it goes someplace else. And uh, that's the That's the one thing that I think like owners do
miss in this space. They don't recognize that the instruitutional knowledge that has been built up over years, and they let it walk out of the door. Now case in point, Joe Dumars leaves the floor. I left the floor, and I was the first owner, part owner of a team to Toronto Raptors that started in Toronto, first international team. So I left the floor transition right into management, right
into ownership of an expansion. Joe Dumars leaves the floor with that same Detroit Pistons institutional knowledge and he goes into the front office and they win a championship, you know, with with Ben Wallace, Chauncey Ripped, you know, Rashid that group, and so they kept mister d kept that institutional knowledge inside. New owners they come in and everybody wants to make a splash and they wants to, you know, input, imprint their own name on the team. So they always bring
in new people. Well, when you bring in new people, it takes you know, you lose twenty thirty years of institutional knowledge that walks out of the door. Most corporations don't do that.
That's interesting.
I didn't even think about it from that perspective, but I think that's a great perspective because you're right when I look at some company, it's like, Okay, this guy is the CEO. Now he's the chairman. You know, so you know Phil Knight, for instance, we'll go Phil Night, right, like Fiel Phil Knight, founder of Nike, was the CEO for so many years. Then he became the chairman of Nike. And so you're still sitting in the board meetings. Maybe
you're not making the final call. Although if you're still sitting there, you have some say in the final call, and you're not trying to replace all those things. And I think that's a brilliant thing that more NBA teams need to need to star are taking into account, especially with this younger generation of guys that's coming in, because they come in, you know a lot of these young guys,
they come in not being fans of the NBA. You know, like when we came up and I sound like I'm way older than I am, but you know, when we were coming like, we were huge fans of the NBA, you know, like a huge fans of this player. You knew who that player was. You know, we have some of these young guys now don't.
Know who World be Free is. We say, World be Free they're like, who.
We had a young guy a few weeks ago and Chris Paul was talking about world be Free and he like world what is that?
And CP started telling him about world be Free?
And he comes back like, yo, he averaged this amount of points, like this is crazy. But they don't know that these days. And I think that that's obviously just a small part of it.
Right, that's a small part of it, but that's a huge part of it. And now I'll take you back to the Union, right because as a as a former president of a union and now a past president, but we always try to ensure is that you know the next man up at institutional knowledge and then your generation changed that a little bit. Right. But when you look over across the across the aisle at the NBA, I mentioned Larry O'Brien, underneath him was David Stern who took over,
and then underneath David Stern who took over. So they never let that knowledge walk out of the door, whereas in the Union we always let this guy come out. We'll get a search committee to find that has the NBA ever had has the has the owners ever had a search committy? Sorry, but it's like we we we constantly let it walk out of the door. And you know, there's an old African proverb that says, each one teach one and we don't teach. We don't, we don't pass
on the knowledge to each other. As a matter of fact, we get separated. And the the okay, I'm gonna call you new media, but old media, right was was was a lot about pitting us against each other, making us, making us not like each other, making us not communicate because then it was best for the audience that they were serving. But new media coming along, insiders who have like yourself, you know, who like you know, Matt Barns and and that crew, I mean y'all making everybody now
communicate and talk. And because we're communicating and talking and guess what we're doing, we're teaching and with spreading knowledge. And that young fellow who just found out about world be free. Right, that's not nobody else's fault except ours, because we're not talking to each other. They make us, you know, don't like each other for some other reason.
But I agree facts, I agree one hundred percent. I remember when I first came into the league, maybe like my second year in the league, I want to say, could have possibly been now, I'd say my second year, at least the summer going into my second year, we were going through the search committee. We were about to replace at the time Billy Hunter as the NFL, NBA PA executive what is it, executive president, executive executive directed.
And I remember you were in the room and you were in a sense trying to go for the job. And if I if my brain, if I can jog my brain correctly, it wasn't taken very seriously at all. It was almost like guys were fighting against it, if I remember correctly, Uh, did.
You kind of get that sense when you were trying to do that? And what's that?
The reasoning behind it is what you're speaking to now is about that knowledge and being able to pass that knowledge down, being through three commissioners and kind of understanding the layer of the land.
Yeah, you've kind of righted the ship now because you got Andree running your reunion. So now now you got a chance to course correct. So that day you're talking about, if you remember myself, Spencer Haywood and I'm not sure if Oscar Oscar Robertson came that day, but we were we were all trying to meet with y'all just to say, hey, here's a history lesson that you need to be aware of before you, before you, you know, go down this track.
Let us tell you where where, where we've been so you can make the correct decision, or at least involve us in decision making. And I'll never forget David West in that meeting, Love love what he do? You remember him.
Groop economic roof economics, economy group economics.
Absolutely, yes, so much so.
About fifteen minutes into it, he kept saying that they were ignoring him.
D West got up and walked out.
Yes, and and and what what happened that day?
Did I?
Did I get upset? No? I didn't get upset because I understand the game that they play with y'all, and my goal and my job has always been, is to inform and give you the knowledge right. And people on the outside they get mad at me, and they spread a lot of rumors or stories about me, and they don't want y'all talking to me because they're like, well, he gonna he gonna tell you this, he gonna tell you that. Don't believe this, don't believe that. And before
you know it, you've got disconnected from the information. And because you get disconnected from the information, they can take advantage of some of you, not all of you. But as you know, we got some players who are still getting taken advantage of. And my goal as a as a former president was always spread the knowledge and to give information. And you're you should ask the guy who represents you how he got into the business.
I know y'all got that connection.
And Andres from Springfield for Chicago, I definitely, I definitely know a relationship.
Oh Rich Paul.
Ask him one day to tell you the story of how he into the business.
Okay, all right, I'm gonna have to come back to y'all, Draymond Green show listeners with this one.
I have to come back to y'all with this one.
But speaking of the richest mentors to get him.
Started, I respect that well. I tell you this.
I appreciate you because he's been incredible for me, the knowledge that he's been sharing with me the business.
He's helped me sign some great contracts.
And when I say great contracts, I don't mean just the money, because it's not all about the money.
The devil is in the details, and the.
Details in my contracts I am so pleased with because it ends up being worth more than just the money the dollar amount that you see when you start adding in kickers and payment schedule and all of these different things. It ended up being worth more than just that dollar. You see that flash across the ticker. So I'm gonna say this for you right here. I appreciate you because that man has helped me a tone. But speaking in
terms of pitting players together. In twenty twenty, and I know you've heard this lot, in twenty twenty, were all sitting at home watching the Last Dance with nothing else to do, and I was just wondering, Number one, did you watch that? And if you did watch it, what was your experience like watching that, being that you were such a huge part of the Last Dance and or just the bulls becoming who they became as a whole.
Did you watch that and if you did, what was your experience like in watching it?
Yeah?
I watched it, and I watched it with you know, my It was doing COVID, So so you know, the family, we gather around and you know this is this is going to be great because for me and you understand this, I say this being a champion, right, the first time I really got a chance to peep behind the opponent's kurtain, right, And no one else could understand that, right, but you would understand. It's like, okay, now we get ready to see, like what's behind the curtain. And and and I and I must say that.
I was.
I was disappointed at what I saw. And here's why I was disappointed. You you have you had Bob Myers there as your as your president GM. The Chicago Boys had Jerry Krouse as their president. The way they treated Jerry Krouse, in the disrespect that they showed for him, I was blown away, totally blown away. Now can you imagine Bob Myers getting on y'all championship bus and y'all dogging him and calling him out his name and everything else.
You can't even fathom that. So we were thinking, you know, in our era, these were the dudes. Jerry west read All Back, Jack McClosky, Wayne Embry, Jerry Crops, those were the dudes. And to watch how they treated him and the disrespect and lack of respect that they gave him as a person and as a man, it was cringe worthy watching that. I cringed for him and his family. And then the man you know, he was dead, right, so they it's going off on him in the dock now.
In terms of Jordan and I, as I said, my little nephew lived with Jordan, lived with him for like, you know, five years, and and then was a ball boy for the Chicago Bulls, and so my my whole family was like, you know, we were all interacting and everything else. The All Star Game, Michael Jordan's last All Star game. I coached his last All Star game. Vince Carter. Yeah, Vince Carter had won the starting spot. It's Michael Jordan's
last All Star game. I took Vince Carter aside and I convinced him to give his spot to Michael Jordan. He said why, I said, because I gave mine to doctor j when Doctor j was voted on that. That's how it goes, right, Vince Carter gave up his spot Michael Jordan. You know, we interacted everything else. I never knew this dude felt the way he felt until the last Dand wow, really, I'm like, all these years you've been standing behind a tree, throwing stones and letting somebody
else take the fall for it. I never knew he had dislike an anger for me. Had I known, Okay, you know, I'm grown man. I ain't got no problem. You know, we come from the same place. You know, at one point in time in my life. I used to fight really really good, and I know I can't do that. I used to not but but we wouldn't throw hands or anything. But I'm just saying, had I known you felt that way, I definitely would have treated you differently. But I was very gracious to him, not
only in Chicago but everywhere we went. I never I never thought there was any type of you know, he ahmad and I when I stopped playing, we went out to dinner several times. So I never knew, like until the last dance, like this dude really felt this way about me. Now some people will say, oh, Isaiah, you should have known. How could you not know? I only know how people are with me when they treat me, Like when you and I to talk, it's like it's love. Right now you walk away and you like dogging me.
I don't know that. I only know how we interact and when you and when and I interacted was always good. So now some people will say, well, why didn't you shake his hand? Let me give you all a history lesson. Okay, the champions and I went to every NBA finals, Boston Celtics, the LA Lakers, Philadelphia when they were all competing. At the end of the game, they always left the court and they would let the other team celebrate, and then they would come into your locker room after the game
and shake your hand and say congratulations. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. Y'all find me the tape in the video that showed them shake the hands at the end of their championship wins or losses. Showed me the tape, showed me the video where they all like chicking. Heck, where Larry Bird and Magic Johnson taking air. I want to see that now. In the locker room, you walk out, then you come back and you shake hands and you
congratulate their back in the locker room. So when the Boston Celtics walked off the floor on us, we understood the program. You would see afterwards. See Jones, Jimmy Rogers, a couple of the players. They came into all locker room and they congratulated us. Okay, that's how it goes. Chicago, they're the only champion that still cries about somebody not shaking the hand.
Interesting, So I asked you that question. I appreciate those facts. I got a couple questions for you. Number one, do you regret like the way that that all played out with it almost being like, I mean, you were essentially, for lack of a better term, demonis for that.
It was like, oh that was Isaiah, Isaiah ducked. It was all Isaiah didn't want to.
Shake their hands because he got a thing against MJ. Do you regret that now in seeing how it all played out?
Of course, the way it all played out, right, have we known that this would be the impact? Of course we all stopped the shit, do shake your hands? But but nobody was thinking like that back then. It wasn't like that. It really wasn't a theme til they made it a thing. Yeah, and we're sitting here, what is it almost thirty years later and they still making it a thing?
Sure, almost forty years later now, No, listen, I get it. But I have also a question when when you didn't make the Dream Team, as I all think, I think we all would agree you should have been on a Dream Team, did you not think in us like that that possibly came from MJ, like that MJ would have that type of power, so that you don't make that team.
Did you feel like that then or at any.
When I didn't make the team, my first reaction was why did not make it right? And and and that was the first time I had never made the team. You know, you yes, when you tried for a team, and remember they used to write your name up on the wall.
You made it right. My name was always on the wall. I was always always made the team, right. And so that was the first time I didn't make a team. And so of course I was like, I was hurt. But at the same.
Time, it never done on me that I didn't make the team because Michael Jordan didn't like me. That that that thought never crossed my mind. I went to the selection committee and John Stockton is a is a is a personal friend of mine and it has been a personal friend of mine for a long time. Jeff Hornisack, you know, his dad coached me in high school, right, So so when you look at my relationships, you know with with Hornorsack Stocked and you know we we've known
each other for years. So when I never thought like, okay, I wasn't gonna make the team. But when I looked at the com you know who they picked. You know, it's like, okay, well they picked this guy, they picked John, they picked this now. And then then I started thinking, okay, well, and you know you always want to make the team. Okay, I'm like, okay, but Larry hurt, Magic ain't even in the league no more, right, you know, stocked and injured. Okay,
I got a chance. It never crossed my mind that I wasn't gonna I wasn't on a team because Michael Jordan didn't want me on a team. And by the way, at that time, you're not thinking like somebody would have that much power because that was that first championship. Now I had I had won two, should have won three. Magic and Bird I think had five. Magic had five, Bird had three. I had two. We had won the
most championships in that era. So I didn't I was I wasn't thinking like, it just wasn't crossing my mind. Some people will say, oh, Isaiah, you should have known it, But that ain't how I operate. That ain't how I think. I wasn't like going to you know, oh, this guy didn't want me on the team. That's why I'm not on the team. And then it started coming out weeks later, well, Jordan don't like Isaiah, he didn't want him on the team.
And then Michael Jordan did an interview or he did a made a quote and he said, Hey, I had nothing to do with Isaiah not being on the team, So why wouldn't I take him at his word? That's what he said. Last dance said, Oh, this dude been lying for a long time.
You know.
That's when now now you see me like wait a minute, okay, because now I'm like, okay, I'm pushing back now. But it really wasn't nothing to push back on at that time because I didn't make the team. Robmin didn't make the team, Robin was three times Defensive Player of the Year. Joe Dumars didn't make the team. Joe Dumars was you know, eighty nine NBA Finals MVP. I was ninety Finals MVP. We're the only backcourt that's ever been back to back NBA Finals MVP's. So Joe wasn't on the team, Robin
wasn't on a team. I wasn't on the team. So now we're like, oh, well, the League hate us. We never said Jordan hate us. He's like the League hate us David Stern because we was fighting with David Stern in the in the NBA. Ever since I got into the NBA, that's been all fighting, right right, So but I never I never went to George, But now I am.
I respect that is where is your relationship at today?
And is that salvageable?
Dude?
No, not salvageable? Now we.
The only way this is salvageable. This dude got on national television, international television and called me an asshole somebody who has been really good to him. And until he apologizes on international television, we you know, conversation. You can't. You can't apologize and have a private dinner when you and me publicly. If you didn't mean it, say it publicly. Now if you meant it, let us stand. I'm good with that.
M h. I respect that. And switching gears.
Uh, you know, we always talk about the drastic styles of play and or drastic changes, I should say, to the style of play from when you guys played even to the early years of say Lebron and Kobe you know, and those guys the early two thousand Shack Duncan and to you know, twenty tens and to where the game is today. Uh, it's totally different. It's officiated differently, rules, some rules are different. But I think we all know
and see the changes to the offense. And there's been some recent reports coming out that the NBA is looking about looking at shifting back to some of the rules that you guys played with, possibly being able to hand check again. Uh, being able to play a lot more physical on the defensive end as you have been able to in recent years. It's kind of tilted a bit, so it seems to favorite offense. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that's good for the game?
Do you think that's needed? Or like do the offense get way too too much freedom of movement and all of those things nowadays?
Well, what are your what is your sense on that?
I think that well, yes, it definitely has changed and it has shifted, and I would say skill wise, skill you have more skilled players on the roster and on the team than we had back then. Now what do I mean by skill? Mhm, everybody can shoot everybody. I mean you can't leave nobody. I mean everybody can shoot. And then the three point line in the distance in terms of where guys are shooting from, is is mind blowing. It's it's remarkable. Now in terms of the defense swinging
back to where it was. I think we think we have to be careful because we can, we can all have these thoughts of how it should be, but it's really gonna come down to the officials. Now. Back then, all officials knew like okay and check in, you know, being physical with you know there. They could have called a foul on every single play, but they were selective in terms of what plays they would call on. And we knew as players, you know, kind of how the
game was gonna go. They would set the table early in terms, okay, these are the rules. This is how this game's gonna be played. Now Tomorrow night games may be different, right, like we knew like like Magic Johnson has a and by the way, I watched all the Olympics and I rooted it for the US. But I but there was there's a scene in there with Magic and Larry. I taken a picture with Michael Jordan and
Magic goes or you can't get too close. You know, they gonna call the five right that lot so yeah, so you just know, like, I don't know if these officials today can really control the game the way those officials back then were able to do. So when you're talking about changing the rules and everything else, you know, you have to take into account the temperament and the personality of the officials who are going to be officiating
the game and that mhm. I okay, So I'm watching I'm watching some players like, okay, you you take a you take a look at Okay, let's use Kevin Durant and Steph Curry right now. Ever since they've been talking about you know you you we're gonna we're gonna let you hold in hand check a little bit. I'm watching Steph. I'm watching Kevin, and these guys are getting held now away from the bar. And I'm sure you're watching too. I mean, they you know, they they have an arrestle
and they they getting beat up. I don't know if that's really good. But this generation, now fall generation, we were used to it, right, so we were used to you know, you put in on our show, you you're hacking us, you're hitting upside to head. But if you just go drastically into it, now, you know, some some of your best players are really gonna get hurt by it.
And speaking of Steph, how do you look at the how do you look at the all time great point guard conversation? Like, obviously you're right up there, Obviously STEP's right up there, obviously Magic's right up there. But how do you look at that debate or do you even think like those should be debates.
They they should be debates because they're good for basketball and it's good for you know, we always want the general public to be interested in what we're doing. Good of that.
Absolutely, So when you when you when you define the position of point guard, you know, this isn't an era where they say we are positionless.
But but then you want to say, okay, well he's a point guard. He's not a point guard. So let me let me just tell you what the way I think about point guards and the Golden State Warriors. You are the point guard. You you you have more assists than Steph. You, you bring the ball up, you, you initiate the offense, you set the defense. You you you
run the show. Steph comes off screens, he catches, and he shoots, and he's one of the greatest shoots shooters ever, and and what he's been able to do for this generation of play and the way he's one with it, Key Worrid, the way he's won with it has been different than anybody else has ever tried to do it. I won a different way as a point guard. I led my team and I may be the only one who's done this as a point guard where I've led my team in scoring and assists to back to back championships.
I don't think Magic led his team and scored and assists in back to back championships. He may have led them and assists. He may have led them in scorn. I'm the only one who's done it in both categories. Now, what Steph? When I look at Steph, I look at Steph when he talks about the people that he's emulated. He talks about Reggie Miller, he talks about Ray Allen, he talks about you know, guys coming off catching and shooting, and he by far has taken it to another level.
But when you talk about the point guard position, the way I was taught and the way I think of it, not today's point guard, but I would I would say that the Michigan State point guards right, So Eric Snow had Alan Iverson, right, Alan Iverson is not the point guard. Eric Snow was the point guard. They'd never want to give Eric Snow the credit for being point guard. But that's who ran the team for the Golden State Warriors. You're the point guard, and that's okay. Now, what Steph
is Steph is. Steph has been able to do something at his size that no other player has ever been able to do, so he really does have his kind of own category, just like I think I have my category. But if you want to say who's the best point guards between us, it all depends on what era you
want to put us in. Now, I think Magic Johnson Oscar Robertson, because of their size, they always have an advantage over me and Steph in a real basketball game, right, and Magic could score, he could run the show, and he to me, he's the best to ever do it. Second best is Oscar Robertson. And I would say, in terms of the way I had to do it in my era, the little guys don't nobody compete with me. But I would also say with Jef Curry, the way
he has done it, nobody could compete with him. Alan Iverson was the closest small guy to come to doing it the way Steph is doing it, you know, but he by far is in a different category. So point guard, shooting guard, whatever you want to call him, you know that the assists number for the point guard is always what we We were like, okay, can you do this right? That's what really what you were judged on. We weren't
judged on how many points we scored. We were judged on how can you help your teammates score.
I can apprec shit that answer because I was gonna sit here and argue with.
You by my point guard.
But then you said he's in a whole different category and how he goes about things.
I can accept that.
But I also do think like when we were playing for Mark Jackson, Steph had the ball more, he led the team and assist and all of that. Once Steve came in, it's not quite the offense, you know, like the offense is. It's all, you know, swinging the basketball, move the ball to the next guy. Ultimately, I remember
when Steve first was implementing his offense. We're like, man, like you keep telling us and swinging the ball, You keep telling telling Steph to pass the ball and then pin down like Steph's supposed to get these shots man. And I remember Steve telling us like, you guys are looking at me like I'm crazy because I keep telling this guy to swing it and Clay to swing it, and they should be pinning in.
Too, he said.
But I'll tell y'all, the shots are going to find the guys that they're supposed to find.
I can promise you that. You just got to trust it. You trusted.
I promise you the shots will find the guys that they're supposed to find. And so I do think, you know, like the way our offense run and me having the ball a lot and initiating some of the offense, I do think you know that is also kind of a product of our system as well.
You know, where Steph isn't going to dominate the ball.
You know, he's not going to have the ball all the time, making play affter play after play, because it's just not like if Steph did do that, Steve would lose his mind, Like Steve would go ape shit if Steph just sat there and like, what's trying to make every play like he just had a We were lanning the next the other day and I was trying to wave Moses through to get Steph coming off the pen down. He pulled me to the side. He's like, yo, just swinging to Moses, Like like, stop trying to get the
ball to Steph. Like it'll find Steph. You got to swing that ball to Moses. And I'm like, all right, cool, I got you. But I think Steve will lose his mind if Steph was trying to lead to you know, if he was putting himself in a position to lead the team and assists or do it that way. I don't think it would necessarily work for the way Steve wants us to play either, you know.
Yeah, So now'm gonna give you a history lesson. Okay, the offense that you run. I played for the guy who invented it. His name was Bob Knight.
And absolute money.
Yes, I won championships at Indiana University as a student under Bob Knight. When I got into the NBA, I had never ran a pick and role in my life. I has never ran a picking role in my life. I played passing game in high school. I played passing game in college. When I got to the NBA, and they gave me a playbook and told me I had to remember the plays. I'm like, what play seventy two played? Thirty two down fifty two US seventy What the hell
is this? So what you're describing and in terms of your style of play in Steve Kurr's basketball philosophy, that passing game, read and react, move the basketball, set screens, that comes from coach Knight's philosophy and how offensive basketball ship be played. And by the way, your team is very successful with it and have been successful with it. And that's what makes Steph Curry such an anomaly because he You guys don't really have a point guard. You
don't have traditional one two, three, four five man. You don't post up, you know, and put it in the boat. You move, re, react, backcut, dribble, handoff. You force the defense to play every single action m hm. And if that defense isn't on the stream, it only takes one
man to break right. And if that defense isn't on the stream and they don't understand how to defend down screens, cross screens, flare screens, dribble handoff, you know, split cuts, if they don't understand how and they not tight enough to defend all that, then guess what you're gonna get a layup. I'm gonna go one step further, right, You know that I've gotten to know Kevin Durant extremely well.
Now he's one of my favorite dudes. Now, right now, I understand why Kevin Durant left OKAC to come to Golden State. It had nothing to do with you know, I don't like this. Gotta Kevin Durant being as subvant, as smart as he is. You Steph clay moving reading reaction plan that that's the way he wants to play.
That's the way we all want to play. Steve Kerr brilliant enough and he trusts y'all enough and keyword that I'm getting ready to say, he trusts his teaching enough that he gives you the freedom, the freedom to play. So therefore, you never know if Steph is gonna start in the corner, if he gonna start on the wing, if he gonna start on the box. You know, you never know. So the perfect randomness of play that Bob Knight invented that I came up in that I won
championships at Indiana. That's the way you play, and that makes it so difficult so yeah, it's a beautiful thing.
What I appreciate that history less and I'll be honest with you, I can go well speaking to Kevin Durant, I'm happy to hear you say that because I've known this all alone.
Right, Like he wanted to come here. He loved the style of play.
He would always say like, yo, I just wanted to play basketball the right way.
Like I haven't played the game of basketball.
The right way and I don't know how long, and I just want to play the right way. When he was coming here and there was this whole you know Uproar Trademond was recruited in this that and he no, dude wanted to play the game the right way. And so in saying that, probably didn't make the right decision in leaving, because not many teams play like that.
It's going to be hard to find that.
Although I think with Book, you know, Book likes to play the game the right way, and so I think they're finding some of that in Phoenix.
But it's never quite going.
To be this because I think we do play a different brand of basketball.
But before we get out of.
Here, before you come wait, let me make let me make a both here yes, sir, and I hope this don't upset you, but because I'm saying, I'm giving you our compliment. Before Kevin Durant arrived in Gopen State, Golden State, y'all were on the verge of and being and being remembered as the team that wins seventy three and nine and lost to a Cleveland Cavalier team in the finals three to one. You up three to one and probably one of the biggest collapse in NBA Finals history from
the seventy three and nine historical team. Kevin Durant comes that summer and really saves y'all basketball legacy and and you win two championships after that, and now you're the Golden State Warriors dynasty that you're going to go into the Hall of Fame own and everything else. It is cemented because if Durant don't come that summer and you guys are remembered as the seventy three and nine team that lost three to one in the NBA Finals, all of your legacies are different. So all of you with
Kevin Durant, y'all, are you know right? And that was that was a powerful moment in sport that he should be rewarded for, but also your team should be rewarded for accepting a juggernaut like that and being able to incorporate it. And what y'all did was beautiful. Man, it was beautiful. So I hope that didn't hurt you in any way, but I did want acknowledge him and y'all for that beautiful moment.
Yeah. No, it didn't hurt me at all.
I've actually gone public and said before, like, yo, K coming here opened up a totally different thing, Like, you know, we were destroying everybody. The most feared action in the NBA was a Steph Curry Draymond Green pick and roll twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. It was the most devastating action you can get to an NBA. During that time, teams started figuring out how to guard it. When teams started figuring out how to guard that, you know what we did.
Kevin Durant came in, It's like, oh, you figured that out, all right, Well, let's go see you figure this out.
Now, we're gonna get a ball to this dude. He gonna go score.
And if you dare sent a double team, you're only gonna double off me. You're never leaving Steph, you're never leaving Clay. So if you sent a double team, you're only helping off me. Well, now we got to to that too. You go double off of me. I'm a catch and if I'm not shooting, I'm handing off to one of these guys and they shooting your eyeball off.
And so we came up with counter.
So all of that and I think, you know, I am never one that's going to be like yo, k't got championships because because he came here, Like no, he helped us get championships. Now, what I will say is he never gets a championship if he doesn't come here, because I just don't foresee that happening anywhere else or else. We would have saw it again, happened somewhere else. But it was a match made in heaven. You had us in the way we played our brand of basketball and
him wanting to play that style of basketball. You have a face of a franchise and Steph Curry who's so secure in himself that he's not worried about another jugger not coming over and what that does to him or his legacy or how that you know, makes him where his standing is in a franchise, and so all of those things coming together. I agree with you like it was. It was absolutely insane. What I will say is definitely
blue three to one lead. No one likes to talk about me can suspended Game five with them boys was about to get a gentleman sweet No one likes to talk about that, And it's okay. I'm cool with that. I don't mind. It's totally fine. But I am not one of those people who's on the bandwagon of like Kevin didn't do nothing. Kevin doesn't deserve them rings, like you don't win two finals MVPs if you don't deserve rings.
That's just kind of a dumb thing to say, you know.
Yeah, so I'm with you. I'm gonna hit you with this right because they always talk about the Lakers and when they repeat it, but they never mentioned they got their phantom foul. So that that.
Gentlemen, absolutely.
Isaiah Thomas, we should have been the first one to three pete in all air. The other thing I do want to I do want to give Steve Kurr some credit, you know, because the brilliant mind and the way he's he molded and got all of you to trust and believe that this was a great way to play. You know, so all the things that you said, I do want to add Steve Kurve on top of that because coaching really does matter, and he was the coach.
Steve was great.
One more question before we get out of here, because I could talk to you all day.
I'm sitting here, I'm learning and this is great.
Just one last question is this guy was born in Saginaw, Michigan. Popsters from Saginaw, Michigan. Obviously he didn't grow up in Saganow, but he got that Saganaw water somewhere in his veins, and so he is the way he is, I would like to think because he got that Saganaw blood. But Kenya Martin Senior once took Karl Malone out of a game and said he did that elbowed him because he cost you fourteen stitches.
How have y'all ever talked about that moment? So how did that make you feel?
I called him up and said thank you and actually gave me you know, you know, I'm going to supposedly hard guy. So I took forty two stitches in the head, not fourteen, right, But but and this is what I want to say to you, right, you you never know who you touch him, and you never know who that little kid is going to grow up to be. I had no idea that I had impacted Kenyan Martin, you know, NBA player Final, you know, in the NBA Final. I had no idea that I had impacted his life from
Saginaw that way. I had never met him, didn't didn't didn't know it. And when I when I when I heard the story, right, you know, it's like right on, of course, I'm happy for that. But the fact that we in Michigan to this day, I don't care young or old. If it's a fight or get back, I'm down, right, I'm down. We were coming and it's like when you when you got in your little dust up. I call Rich I don't know if he said the first call. I was like, hey, man, tell Draymond, I'm here.
You know, absolutely, I'm here.
I mean that that that's the community in the state, that in the bond of basketball that's been formed there. And you know, it made me feel good that, you know, he got him back because I wanted to get him back, but you know, I want big enough to get him back. So I'm glad he got him back.
Shout out the man. Kmart has some gray years in this league and was a dog. Shout out to him. Hey, but og Zeke, I appreciate you man, Thank you. You always welcome here. You want to talk about something, you want to drop some more knowledge the Draymond Green Show listeners and obviously myself can't thank you enough.
We would love to have you any time you want to come.
But also I just thank you for what you've been to the state of Michigan and the presence that you and Joe d and your guys brought to the state of Michigan as far as basketball goes, like I don't take that for granted, being a kid that grew up watching that you know, and for all that you've done for the game of basketball, being a legend that you are, the gyms you share.
As far as business like, people don't.
We didn't even get the chance to talk about all the things that you're doing in the business world.
It's absolutely amazing.
So from myself but also other players like we thank you for being who you are, what you've meant to this league, and what you continue.
Me well, we love you and we're very proud of you. And you know you keep doing your thing, brother, because you you're changing the world, and you inspiring a little kid somewhere that's never met you. But one day we'll tell the story about how Draymond Green inspired him. So keep doing your.
Things, yes, sir, well do. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you.