Welcome to The Digital Handshake. I'm your host, Scott Jorgensen, and I'm so pleased to be here with Doctor. Roger Kacen. He's a surgeon based here in Dallas, Texas. And again, this is our opportunity to help each of you make your first digital impression your strongest asset. Well, Doctor. Kason, again, thank you so much for being on the podcast series with us.
Thank you for having me.
Absolutely. And let's just start out some well, just a little softball question for you, if we will. Know, where'd you go to college? Where'd you go to your medical school training? Things of that sort. Just kind of give us a little bit about, you know, introduce us to Doctor. Kaysen.
Okay. That is a softball. So I grew up in Oklahoma City, so not far from here, just straight up high-thirty five. Went to school at University of Oklahoma and then did my plastic surgery training at Duke University in North Carolina. Was there for six years. Loved the area. I was there with my wife. She's a pediatric nephrologist. Oh, wow. She's smarter than I am.
And then we came back and actually did additional advanced training in just cosmetic surgery here in Dallas, Dallas Plastic Surgery Institute. And for the past two years, I've been in practice actually in the Southlake area with Mike Bogdan.
Amazing. So you're a Sooner, you're a Blue Devil. You made your way back here to Texas. That's fantastic. Sounds like you've had some tremendous training.
Yes, I've been very, very fortunate.
Yeah. You know, part of the sort of the vision here at the Digital Handshake is, you know, how do we show up as our best selves online, Right? And you've done an amazing job with, you know, obviously curating your background, your education, your experience, you know, from medical school training, going to great schools and what have you, and then obviously partnering with great mentor surgeons to add to that training. What are you doing now to, you know, because part of being a plastic surgeon is, you know, operating, performing procedures, you know, the medical healthcare portion, But there's also a big portion that's the marketing, right? So as part of that, like, what are you doing now to market yourself?
So it's becoming more and more complex each month, feel like. And I think there's multiple data points that patients look at. I mean, I think early on it was the billboard that was your marketing. The website came along. You know, now it's social media, websites, reviews, these forums that people get on and ask questions, support each other.
So I do think you need to have a presence on each of those. For me personally right now, social media has been the big driver. And I think people are drawn to social media because it is interactive, right? I can show before and afters, but then I can also show a video of me talking. And I think it's important to people to say, Okay, I like the demeanor of this person.
I like what he or she has to say. And so it's kind of that whole element of getting to know that surgeon and feeling comfortable with that surgeon versus just seeing their curated picture on a website.
Yeah. You know, social media has become so popular now within our industry, and if you're not good at it, you're falling behind. Let's be honest. Has there been a post or, something that stands out to you that, for whatever reason, you weren't expecting it or it kind of surprised you and it performed better? Patients come in and ask you about it or kind of, call it for lack of a better term, went viral?
You know, the funny thing I wish I could say, oh, yeah, you know, my expectations of a post directly correlate with how it does. I can't figure out the algorithm. I'll have a post that I'm like, this is great. This before and after phenomenal. It'll do okay. It'll just have some kind of funny quick post that I do that blows up. So it's hard to predict.
Yeah. You know, I think that's one of the big challenges for plastic surgeons is that you want to come across professional. You want to come across as an educator, right? Because I think that the best form of marketing is through education and sharing information. But at the same time, it's difficult to stand out because at times the topics can be a bit dense.
And so being sort of like you said, like, hey, you were surprised that, you know, when you're kind of goofing around or, you know, said something funny or, you know, just kind of like letting patients see you be yourself, right? That that performed the best. You know, as part of that is like really showing up online, like being authentic, you know, genuine.
I think that's key.
Yeah. Well, tell me more about that. Like, what are you doing, whether it's social media, in your website, in your marketing, to show up as, you know, genuine Roger Cason?
So I think, and anybody who's on social media and looks at plastic surgeons, there's the gamut. There's a spectrum of really silly to really, really serious. And I think all of those can play as long as that is a reflection of your personality, right? If you are genuinely a guy who likes to dance or goof around, show that. If you're a guy that's a little more serious and likes to talk in scientific terms, show that.
I mean, I think there's a patient population that will gravitate to each of those. One thing that I've actually been doing more and more of, and it's had a good response, is I do some education to kind of give people basic talking points or an overview of certain procedures, but I am a believer that the proof's in the pudding. And what I really try and do now is I try and post before and after standardized content. Because I also think if I were a patient and I were looking around, what would I want to see? I'd want to see good reviews, which a lot of people have good reviews, and I would want to see high volume before and afters.
What can I expect? Right? If And I don't see before and afters and all I see is fluff, then I would start to wonder where are the before and afters, right? That is what I'm coming to you for. So I'm a big believer that having those readily available is really, really important in choosing a surgeon.
A thousand percent. Couldn't agree more. I think, you know, a plastic surgeon lives or dies by his before and afters. Agreed. Right?
You know, being a, I will say relatively young plastic surgeon in your career, you've got, you know, decades in front of you. But to have a high volume of before and after speaks that you must be good because of being so young in your career, you already have a pretty dense compendium of before and after shows that, you know, you're a good surgeon, right? And you're building your base of word-of-mouth marketing. Speaking You a little bit more about before and afters, I think it's a fun topic to talk about, you know, as a way to market online, right? It's kind of part of your digital identity, your digital footprint.
Do you do different types of case studies? Do you do like, you know, kind of like transformations? What do you do in particular as a way to like really elevate and stand out your before and afters? Because, you know, any doctor can put up a gallery.
Yeah. Yeah. Think there is a place for standalone standardized photos, but there's only so many of those people could scroll through, kind of to your point, right? And that's the good thing about social media. They like interactive content.
And the nice thing about social media is you can use video. And something that I do think people really enjoy is two things. You can have transformation videos or Reels where you show the before and then you pan on the after. And also patient interviews. How was your experience? And you can actually see their nose or their facelift as they're talking. And hopefully you can see the joy kind of coming through them that's genuine, which says, This is a happy patient. Right.
Right. You know, we all aspire to have happy patients. Right. But at times, you know, there's probably that patient that we kind of said, I probably shouldn't have done that case. Right?
Or I probably mismanaged her expectations or his expectations. Or, you know, I felt like we got a great result and for whatever reason, she or he never going be satisfied. Right. And then, you know, God forbid, they get in front of that little computer and they start typing out, you know, something online. And now you're dealt with managing that.
I don't know if you've had an experience or something that stands out, but that's something I think all plastic surgeons wrestle with, is managing your reputation online.
Yeah. That is very, very true. And it's one of those things where, how do you deal with this certain patient, this certain outcome? Not really from a medical standpoint because in our training, we know surgically, medically, how do I treat this or deal with this? But it's the social aspect.
Yeah. And that's not in a textbook. And that's probably one of the hardest things I've found. I think at the end of the day, my goal should always be to be true to what I think is right safe. It will give them the best outcome.
Obviously, I want patients to be happy. I mean, that is why I'm in plastic surgery. Mean, I truly enjoy giving people the goals that they had in mind. But I also, I don't think overly changing your beliefs or your morals in order to avoid that bad review. Is that the right thing? Yeah. I don't think so. And, at the end of the day, if I think you're not a good candidate and I think that this could harm you, I'm going tell you that. Could you leave and go write me a bad review? Yeah.
But I'd rather have a bad review saying, Doctor. Kacen said I was not a good candidate or wasn't safe than a bad review saying, He did the surgery and it looks horrible. That's a different review.
I think, you you bring up an interesting point about, managing that bad review. And, you know, there's a lot of times where it's just out of our hands, it's out of And, our control, you know, what I have found is that when a doctor doesn't try to cast out or remove or pull down the bad reviews so that he's always five stars and has, you know, no negative comments, it's like, really? You And know I I think, just going back to that sort of concept about being authentic, I think leaving up a bad review or two shows, right, that, you know, hey, like, he's human. Yes,
reviews can certainly be curated. And one thing that we know about medicine and plastic surgery is that the complication rate is not zero. And that's something that we don't often talk about. Mean, it's kind of the thing that we try and minimize. But at the end of the day, that is a true fact.
Doesn't matter how many you've done, how long you've been in practice. We all have detours from the originally planned course. And yeah, so if there are reviews that say, Hey, listen, this didn't go great, that may happen. What I never want the review to say is that this didn't go great and Doctor. Kacen abandoned me. My thing is, Hey, am I going to have complications? Certainly. But my goal is I run towards those. And I want to see you every day. I want to know exactly what's going on.
I want to get you through this. You
know, part of that is telling your story, right? So that patients, before they even, you know, set foot in the practice or even make that initial phone call, you've already been able to proactively get them comfortable.
Yeah.
Right? And start building that sort of, you know, groundwork of trust. Besides social media, besides a website, is there anything else that you're doing in particular or perhaps you're considering doing as a means to establishing greater trust with patients before they even make that initial consult call or show up in the practice for a visit?
You know, a lot of that has been somewhat automatic. I mean, as I've operated on more people, there's more friends of friends and family members that know, Hey, you did my sister's nose. And so a lot of that has kind of taken care of itself. Whereas, day one in practice, I feel more like the patient's interviewing me. Like, Why should I come view?
How many of these have you done? And now it's more, hey, listen, you did my sister's nose, you took care of her, she looks great. Or she had this issue, you took care of her, now she's great. And now here I am because I trust you.
Kind of just to wrap up here, because I've really enjoyed the conversation, play, you know, a little bit of a game if we could, Just kind of lighten it. You know, you're at a dinner party. Okay. And you have an opportunity to invite three plastic surgeons. Okay. Now, these plastic surgeons could be dead or alive, or they could be, you know, folks that you know or folks that you've never met. Who are we inviting to the dinner party?
That is a tougher question than it seems on the surface because I have so many mentors. I know a lot of mentors would be pissed off if I don't include their names.
But we only get three. Three. And it's a dinner party. So take that in consideration. They may be, you know, great mentor, but they're a horrible dinner guest.
Okay. Right. Number one would be Rod Rourke. Okay. So I did my fellowship at Dallas Pasques Children's Institute. He has been an advocate, a supporter, just a phenomenal educator. And if I didn't say his name, he would hunt me down. Certainly, But Rod Rohr. Jeff Marcus, he was the chair at Duke University. Again, pioneer in rhinoplasty, phenomenal surgeon.
The third has to be a plastic surgeon. So I'm torn saying one of my best friends who's not a mentor, but would be fun, or somebody else who has been a mentor. And number three would be Brett Phillips. He was the program director also at Duke. And he was When I was an intern, my first year in residency, he was a sixth year. So he was ahead of me, but I kind of knew him at the resident level. And just a solid all around guy, a guy I could call, text, and he'd be there in a heartbeat.
What are we serving? What are we eating?
What are we eating? It's your dinner. It's my choice. We don't have to think about what We would would be having Oklahoma or Texas steak. Love it. Otherwise.
Go Sooners.
Yep.
Well, want to thank our guest, Doctor. Roger Kacen, for being with us today. I want to thank our sponsor, Media PSC, for helping us bring this podcast to each of you. And again, we'll see you on our next episode.