You have this ability to become confident in every single area of your life. It's about us just learning a new series of behaviors. For example, there's something called a siren technique. In three, two... I'm crazier than usual. Fantastic. That's fantastic. You did a great job, right? And then this next one is volume. So critical. Because if I just increase my volume and I talk like this, I sound a little bit aggressive, don't I? But with volume to highlight something. You could go very quiet.
So it's about waking people up to the power of their voice. And we all have access to these tools. Let's go through all five. Vin Jiang is the award-winning speaker and communication expert who helps people harness the power of their voice and body language in all areas of their life. Just so overwhelming.
of how many people are suffering with not being able to communicate. They're asking, I'm introverted. Does that mean that I'm doomed? How do I become more confident? How do I speak on the spot? And we think there's no way for me to ever change this. It's super sad because I lived a massive part of my life like that. I was the awkward kid.
I couldn't communicate with anyone. I moved schools so many times because I was a bully. But then I broke the mold. And then I just learned all these new behaviors. It just completely changed me. And anyone can do this in three to six months. And I'm going to teach you. So the first thing that really matters is a three-step process. I call it record and review.
to dramatically change the way you talk and the way you show up. But how do we start a conversation with another human being? I've got a simple game called Hilo Buffalo, and it gives you three opportunities for a conversation to spark. We'll play it in a second. And then there's hand gestures to level up your physical presence. And then a simple framework.
that helps build connection. There's so many other things we could talk about. And we're going to go through them. But some people do have severe social anxiety. What do you say to those people? The first thing I would do is...
I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you.
do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button. I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see.
and continue to doing this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Back to this episode. If you had to summarise what it is you do fundamentally and why you do it, how would you summarise it? I help people learn that they have access to one of the most beautiful instruments in the world.
that can help them negotiate whatever reality they desire. And I learned this through my first-ever vocal teacher, Miss Stanley, and I'll never forget this experience. There's a dingy music corner in South Australia and I would go there for lessons. And at the first time I met her, I walked into the room. She's an old lady. And she says nothing to me except the words, sit down, young man. So I sit.
It feels super awkward. It feels super weird. And then she plays one key nonstop on the piano for two minutes. Literally, I was like, oh, shit, this is like something out of a horror movie. And then she turns around. She goes, how do you feel? I said, nothing weird, awkward. What? And then she goes, good, turns around, plays this beautiful song called Mariage d'Amour. Goes over for two minutes. And then she turns around, she goes, how do you feel? And I said, ah, weirded out from before still.
But I feel, wow, that song had love. There was lust. There was romance. There was excitement. And she goes, good. Honey, most people go through life speaking like this. I'm going to teach you how to speak like this. And that's, to me at the time, I remember thinking to myself, that is the greatest sales pitch I've ever heard in my life. Because I'm now going to sign up for 12 classes with you because you've just helped me realize something I've been struggling with my entire life.
I haven't been thinking about my voice as an instrument. I thought it was a tool. What do you do with a hammer? You use a hammer. What do you do with a screwdriver? You use a screwdriver. What do you do with the piano? You play with it. What do you do with the violin? You play with it.
And she started to teach me that I have this instrument that depending on how I play it, it changes and shifts how others feel. How much do you think that will change the trajectory of someone's life? Like, what is the impact? If I get really good at communication, why does it matter? I was invisible my entire childhood. I was invisible. I wasn't the cool kid. I wasn't the good-looking kid. I wasn't the charismatic kid. I wasn't the funny kid. I wasn't the anything kid.
By learning this skill, I've been able to negotiate an incredible reality. And that's why I love Tim Ferriss' quote so much, reality is negotiable, cool. Well, what skill do we use to negotiate the reality we desire? It's our ability to communicate. Teaching that to others has been one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done. And I genuinely believe that makes the world a better place. And I almost sometimes feel like I'm just here to tune pianos. I'm here to help people tune and fix and...
Learn how to play and I get so much fulfillment from that My parents have this fundamental belief. It's so beautiful. They believe every child is born with a diamond, with a gift, with something in them. So I found one of my diamonds early on. It was magic, right? So I was really good at magic. They hoped it was medicine, accounting, you know, the Asian. prophecy. So when I found that diamond being magic, I thought that all I had to do was get really good technically.
as a magician, because that's what I was taught at university, being an accountant. Oh, if you become really technically proficient as an accountant, you'll become an amazing accountant. You'll be successful. You get the BMW, you get everything, get partner. So I thought, OK, magic, same thing. Get really good technically. Spent thousands of hours in my bedroom by myself in front of a mirror practising magic. Got nowhere. Because I was missing an ingredient. Magicians call it showmanship.
Fancy word for communication skills. We're both inspired by the same person, I believe. One of the people we're inspired by is Derren Brown. Impeccable showmanship. Impeccable technical skills.
So when you pair technical skills with great communication skills, that's when you thrive, I believe. Because let's say, for example, you're technically brilliant, you're a 10 out of 10 technically, but you're 3 out of 10 with your communication skills. Do you think people perceive you to be a 10 out of 10 or a 3 out of 10? And you know this hearing so many different pictures. Some of the greatest ideas have flown under your radar without you noticing because the founder didn't do it justice.
It's an interesting idea to think that we might rise or fall to the level, not of our technical ability, but our communication skills as it relates to how the world perceives us. And it's both. The importance there is both. Whereas I feel like we get stuck into this world where we think, oh, it's one or the other. And my students always ask me this. Which one should I focus on? And I say, well, the reality is both. It's not as simple. It's both.
Because if I have great showmanship and when it comes to doing sleight of hand, I suck. That's not going to work either. The people that I've been able to help the most in my career so far are the people who are technically so amazing at what they do.
And they've been hidden away in the back office as a technician. And then bloody Brad always gets the promotion, right? Brad always gets it. Ah, damn it, Brad got it again. Brad's not smart as me. Brad is not as good as me, right? And it's because Brad talks better. He's more visible in the work environment. You really think it often comes down to just how we speak and communicate? Our value, yes. Because if you can't communicate your value in a way that is clear and concise, people...
It's not their responsibility to see the brilliance that exists within you. It's, I believe, your responsibility to learn how to shine your light brightly. It's super sad because I lived a massive part of my life like that. English is my third language. The first language I learned is a Chinese dialect. Not that impressive. My wife speaks five, but thank you. The first language I learned was a Chinese dialect called . It's a bit of for you.
Second language I then had to learn fluently is Vietnamese. So I had to learn all these different languages growing up. These are my first two core languages that if I wasn't proficient in it, grammar would be pissed off, mum would be pissed off. So we had to study it.
And then I went to school and had to learn English. So I went to school. I was completely invisible. I couldn't communicate with any other kid. They couldn't communicate with me. So what do kids do? Oh, it's too hard. I'll just ignore you then. They bully you? Oh, yes. I didn't even know it was bullying because I couldn't understand them.
I could kind of read what they seemed mean, but I had no idea what they were saying. So I spent so much of my childhood, especially in those single-digit years around five, six and seven, it is super sad, but I just spent a lot of time in the toilet.
Because I didn't want to deal with the shame of being seen by myself. So I just hid. I just found a corner somewhere and no one... And then gradually I started to learn English. But even when I learned English, I sounded funny because I had an accent. So then they called me Fob.
F-O-B, fresh off the boat. And they just kept calling me, oh, there's the fob, there's the fob. Oh, he's so fobby. So then even though I learned the English language now, I'm scared to speak it because I don't want to sound like a fob. And there were all these challenges. So I know what it's like to feel invisible. I know what it's like to be ignored.
That was a long time ago. And I guess the question that it leaves me with is how easy is it for someone to learn? Like what is the time span that it would take from the experience you've had with teaching people to make a radical change in your communication skills?
It depends on your level of desire and motivation. If you really want it? I'd say three to six months. You think you can change your communication skills in a radical way in three to six months? I've seen it. I've seen students do it.
It's when instead of just thinking about I'm trying to learn a new habit, it's what James Clear says. You adopt a new identity where they adopt that new identity. Because one of the things I do is I share that story about my schooling experience at the beginning of my in-person classes and I say... I want you all to imagine now you're at a new school. No one here in this room with us right now has any preconceived idea of who you are. Break the mould. Break it. And then you see grown adults...
do things they wouldn't normally do, break out of the world, play with their voice, be a little silly, reconnect with their inner child. And then in that moment, they fall so deeply in love with that version of them because of the reactions they've been able to get from all these strangers around them.
that they commit to it. It's when you experience that change in the moment, it usually leads to a fairly profound desire after that. Oh, I want to become this now. But then they make a big mistake. And the biggest mistake they make is they'll go home to their partner. and who has no context of the experience they've been through. And they've just went, oh, I've been quiet with my...
my voice my entire life. And they'll go, new me, new year, new me, honey. And then their partner goes, oh, why are you doing that with your voice? Oh, you learned that from Vin? That's gross. Why are you doing that? It's so fake. It's so inauthentic. And then they revert back to who they have always been their entire life. What areas of one's life...
Have you seen in those examples change when someone learnt communication skills? Because the examples we've given so far are just like work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With their children. This has been the coolest part because I'm a dad. I teach a concept called vocal foundations, which we can dive into later. And there's these beautiful five core vocal foundations that people can learn. And I love it when parents go through it because I always see these comments where they said...
oh, my goodness, just read to the kids. They've never reacted to me in that way before. The moment, the one night I go home and I read to my kids and I do it in a boring way, they go, Dad, don't read it like that. Do it the fun way. And what they're asking for is they're asking for that vocal variety. They're asking for that inner child, for that playfulness. And I think that's one of the greatest, I think that's one of my greatest superpowers is the ability to be playful.
and the willingness to be playful. So you're going to help me in work, you're going to help me be a more entertaining, engaging parent. Are there any other areas of one's life that improve when they crack communication? Yes, there is an area. And the area is improv. Learn improvisation. People all want to get better at communication. Often it's because they want to get better at conversations.
What is a game of conversation? What are we doing right now? What are we doing? This is a game of improv. I don't know what you're going to say. You don't know what I'm going to say. And then based on what I say, you improvise and you say something. So even though I know you've never done improv before, you are amazing at improv. Because that's a skill you had to have developed to become the incredible podcaster that you are right now.
Right? So that to me is such an important skill when you're playing with your kids too. It helps you with all areas of life. It's the tide that lifts all boats. Because kids love to play. They'll say something like, oh, and then the cow now is an astronaut. And most parents will be like, aha, that's cool, honey, that's cool.
No play. Now it's also fighting zombies that exist on the moon and you didn't know about it. And you play with them. And when you're playing, what are you using? You're using your ability to communicate. And how many people have you taught in person and or online? Oh. Over 70,000 now. Wow. Yeah. You have millions and millions and millions of followers online as well that tune in to learn communication skills from you from all around the world. And if I was to zoom in on the DMs that you get...
The things that people are struggling with when they message you, the reason why they watch your videos, what is it? The most common message that we get when people type a comment and leave it on our videos is...
Is it possible for me to change the sound of my voice? Really? Well, because you think about it, right? Nobody likes the sound of their own voice. The first time you heard yourself on a podcast, were you like, oh, no. Or did you say, I love it. Look how sexy I sound. When I was younger and I was...
cassette recorders and I heard my voice, I thought, fucking hell, who's that? Yeah, me too, right? So that is one of the biggest insecurities for most people when they first become problem aware with their communication skills is, oh, is it possible for me to change the sound of my voice? Is it possible?
Is it possible? And when you reflect upon this, even when you reflect upon this, most people in their entire life will never change the way they sound. They will never change the way they communicate.
They'll change the way they dress. They'll change their hair. They'll change their glasses. They'll change all these things about themselves. But the way they communicate and the way they sound stays consistent generally. It's because there are a lot of psychological blocks that keep us sounding the same. we keep ourselves sounding the same. I'll share with you a few of these, okay?
With my vocal teacher, at the beginning of my journey, when she got me to do things with my voice where she said, all right, let's do a really high voice. Have a bit of a play, Vin. And, you know, go into falsetto. And she would make me do things like this. I'd go red.
Because I'd go, oh, that feels so weird. Oh, now I'm becoming so deep with my voice. This feels so fake and it feels phony. I immediately came up with those objections, as I'm sure you would feel that too if I got you to do that, right? And when I do it with my students, that's the immediate thing that comes up. They go, it's fake, it's phony. That's not me. And then now, just like my vocal teacher, she would always challenge me. She goes...
Well, if you could make the sound and you played the key on your piano, you describe to me then, how is it fake? How is it fake? If you are able to make that sound, that is you, that is your instrument, that is just you playing with keys you're unfamiliar with. That's it.
You've gone through this entire life being so familiar with this key that any time you pressed any other key, you go, oh, it's not me. No, no, no, you're just familiar with this key and you're unfamiliar with the others. That alone helped me understand that, oh, wow. it's not fake. Because for the longest time, I thought it was fake. And because I thought it was fake, I never changed the way I talk. And why is it that we don't want to play with those other keys? Is it because...
We've got so used to playing with a particular set of keys. You're so familiar with it. Playing the other keys comes at a cost, a perceived cost. It goes deeper than that. It goes even deeper than that because where did you get your voice from? Who did you learn it from?
There's an idea that people have in their minds about this thing called a natural voice. This is another objection my students give me. They go, oh, that's not my natural voice. And speech pathologists will tell you this. The voice you have right now is not your natural voice.
You lost access to your natural voice when you were two or three. Question. If I asked you to scream at the top of your lungs right now for about 10 minutes, what would happen to your voice? Oh, I'd lose it. Yeah. My daughter, 12 months old.
can scream for three hours, Stephen, and she does not lose her voice because they have this beautiful access to their instrument. They can naturally access that instrument. Whereas as we grow older at the age of three or four, we start to be inspired by certain people in our circles.
As a result of being inspired by people, what do kids do? They emulate, they copy. So the voice that you've developed, you've copied that based on the people you were inspired by when you were young. It's just a series of habits.
The way you speak, the way you sound is just a series of behaviors. It's how you manipulate your vocal cords, how you move air through your body, how you shape your lips, where you place your teeth, how you maneuver your tongue, how you maneuver your soft palate. Depending on how you do all of that, you create a certain sound. But if I change now, as you said, people are going to think I'm weird. That's right. But that's the thing. You have to have a process.
to go about that change. Okay. Because if you immediately just talk tonight with your partner with no context, they'll go, ew, what the hell? Why did you talk to Vin? You've had Vin on the podcast. Yeah, why? Now you're fake. Yeah. Right? We'll get to that in a moment. What I'm saying is that...
The reason why you don't move from that is because you genuinely feel stuck. I'll give you the reason behind it. When you're first imitating dad, I had one of my students, his name's Tanzia. Beautiful, beautiful guy. He had a very soft way of speaking. beautiful software of speaking. And what he didn't realise is that in the beginning of his life, he saw dad do it, really inspired by dad. So he copied dad. So he had to consciously think about...
all these little behaviors, all these nuances to copy dad sound. And then after you repeat those behaviors for one year, two years, you no longer have to consciously think about it because you've mastered it. So now those behaviors move from your conscious mind and moves into your subconscious mind. And then when behavior...
is moving to your subconscious mind. Now it feels automatic. So now you feel like it's you. So now you don't doubt it. You go, no, no, that's me. It's like, no, no, it's still just a series of behaviors. Yeah.
And I often tell my students, I say all the time, I say, don't be so attached to who you are in the present. You don't give the future version of you a chance. And the moment these things happen, it's incredible seeing these changes because all my students will do is they'll change three things. More volume.
More melody, bigger hand gestures, people completely change the way they perceive them. Three simple things that they do creates a profound change in how others perceive them. Volume, melody... And hand gestures. Yeah, I was thinking to one example of one of my students who, a female, Rachel, who felt like she didn't have great executive presence. And it was because she became, she labelled herself as being shy.
And I like to break these things down for my students too. I'm like, the reason you're shy and the reason you're really good at being shy is because you've been repeating the shy behaviours for the last 25 years. So you're really good at it. And that's all right.
It's because you've been practicing shy for 25 years. Being more confident, it's about us just learning a new series of behaviors. Let's try a larger gesture. I've seen this on multiple podcasts now. Just try a larger gesture. Try a stronger volume.
Try being more melodic with your voice. And then she was practicing that. And immediately the feelings of, oh, it feels fake, it feels funny. But I go, oh, no, it's just unfamiliar. And the moment she makes that reset, she goes, oh, I'll continue to explore then. Whereas if she thinks it's fake, she'll revert back to being... who she was before. So how do I speak impromptu? How do I be in the moment and come up with a good answer? Another one is, I'm introverted. Does that mean that I'm doomed?
Okay. Yeah. And another really common one is I don't have much connection in my life. I wish I felt more connected to the people that I'm around. Why is it that I can't get past the... G'day, mate. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. All right. Cheers, mate. Have a good one. Oh, the small talk. Yeah, yeah. This is a big topic, right? So, again, it's just how do we get to these conversations that you get to have?
on so many of these wonderful podcasts that you do. So I reckon you would have insights here too. I was looking earlier, there's almost like a billion search results on Google for people trying to figure out... or trying to provide answers to how to communicate successfully. So let's get into it. So you use this term vocal image. Yeah. What does vocal image mean? It came about when I realised I spend, and I think most of us spend a lot of time on our visual image.
How we look, our body language, the way we dress. But very rarely do people spend time on their vocal image. Now, I'll make it make sense. When people see you and you reveal your visual image, they make assumptions about you pretty quickly.
So they form assumptions, oh, this person seems friendly. Maybe they're confident because they've got good posture. Maybe they're smiling, they're friendly. And then all of a sudden, when you open your mouth and you speak, they now turn these assumptions into beliefs.
So what may be assumptions before, now they go, oh, you are friendly, you are confident, right? Or they might think, oh, no, bit of a wanker, right? And you've had these experiences before, I've had them before, where you assume you see someone, you're, oh, that person's really good.
Go and meet them, you're like, ah, not really nice. That's weird. So it's another layer that we don't think about, though, because we, again, think we're stuck with our voice. We think we're stuck with the way we communicate. We think there's no way for me to ever change this. So let's talk about how one can improve their vocal image so that they're effective across context. You mentioned melody, volume, hand gestures. If we start with melody, what the hell is melody?
The different notes you can hit with your voice. Okay, so is that variety? Yeah, variety. Yeah, pitch variety. Pitch and melody. Okay. Well, because there's a melody that lives underneath your voice. All right, let's do an experiment. I'm going to play you a piano song, and I want you to listen to this, and then... You're at home right now. I want you to listen to the track and see what words come to mind. So we'll just play the song. Okay, yeah.
All right, sadness. Right. And then if listeners at home could have a voice here too, that's maybe, say, they'll say sombre, nostalgic. Yeah. Right? All these words would come up. And again, if we sat with this for old, we'd get... plenty of words. Let's try another one. Let's change the mood. Let's shift to something like this. Inspirational, motivational.
Good. See, all of a sudden now, and I'm thinking running towards something, right? And again, there's a part of me that thinks, oh, cheesy commercial, right? There's that part of it too. So you can hear all these different things. Let's try one more. This one, we'll shift gears again. What about... This one. Like a horror movie. Scary. About to die. Yes. Something bad's about to happen. Omnius. Little...
three-year-olds stood on the landing of the staircase at nighttime. Yes, with long black hair. Yeah. Yes, correct. So that, again, all of a sudden paints all these different vivid pictures in your head. The reason I did that experiment is... There were no words in any of those tracks. Yet think about all of the words that rushed to your mind as you were experiencing the melody, the different notes.
What people fail to realise is that you have a melody in your voice. Yeah. This is why when some people walk into our lives, it could drain the energy from our lives. And when they walk in, you feel the impact of them walking in. In the negative way or a positive way. Some walk in and you go, oh, I feel good. I feel great.
What is that? It's the melody in which they come in with. Can you have a pretty limited range, a limited melody, but still hit people with scary and sad and inspiring? I believe you can. Yeah. Again, because we genuinely don't have 88 keys, right? So, again, it's a metaphor. But I believe that we can create so many different songs with our voice if we learn to treat it as an instrument.
And we can play with the technique to help you increase your vocal range if you want. Sure. There's something called a... This is fun. This is a fun one. There's something called a siren technique. Okay. Okay, so a siren technique is when you... You read something with a low voice and then you go towards a higher voice and you go back down to a low voice. So now I don't want you to start with. I just want you to read this as you would.
And then we'll try the siren technique. So just read it as you would neutrally first. So just read that as you would. Okay, so for those that can't see, Vin has passed me a card. Yeah, cue cards. And on the card, it has a bunch of words, which I'm just going to read. And then as you're listening at home, have a guess of what movie this is from.
Wanna know how I got these scars? My father was a drinker. And a fiend. And one night he goes off crazier than usual. Mummy gets the kitchen knife to defend herself. He doesn't like that. Not one bit. So me watching, he takes the knife to her, laughing while he does it. Turns to me and he says, why so serious, son? Comes at me with the knife. Why so serious? He sticks the blade in my mouth. Let's put a smile on that face. And why so serious? Beautiful. What movie is that from?
No idea. Are you serious? Dark Knight, the Joker. Okay. Heath Ledger, so amazing. Okay, cool, great. So again, you read that in your neutral voice. Now what we're going to do is we're going to play with the instrument. So the siren technique is when you read with a really low voice and then gradually you go to a high voice and I'm going to challenge you to not... Be afraid to go into the falsetto. Not be afraid to play. Just play. And it's not about going low at the start and then...
high at the bottom, within each sentence, I want you to go up and down, up and down. I really want you to play with your voice. Otherwise, I'm going to push you. Okay. In three, two. Go for it. I want to know how I got these scars. My father was a drinker and a fiend. Good. And one night he goes up. Crazier than usual. Mummy gets the kitchen knife. Used to defend herself. Good. Wow.
It hurts. Now try to go in a way where it is a little more even. Just give it a go. But normally you won't be able to because you won't have all of the range fully expanded. Try again. Keep going. He doesn't like that. Not one bit. Good. So me watching, he takes the knife to her. Yes. Laughing while he does it. God turns to me and he says, Why so serious, son?
Fantastic. That's fantastic. You did a great job, right? But you feel that feeling you feel right now. Yeah, weird. Yes. And it's not so much about getting you to speak like that on the podcast, but it's more just helping you realise this instrument that you have. is capable of so much more. Yeah. There is so much more that it can do as opposed to what we normally do with it, right? Because for the longest time in my life, I didn't have any melody because I just thought this was how you talk.
And the reason I can switch to this very quickly, Stephen, is because I practiced these behaviours for about 25 years. What's even more interesting is they've done studies where they had five or six people talking at the same time and the person heard...
was the person who had more melody in their voice. Oh, really? The person who is more melodic, what they say becomes more memorable. Whereas if all of us were speaking like this, me, yourself, Jack, everyone, all of a sudden you wouldn't hear. You wouldn't be able to hear the difference.
was all of a sudden, if you just start to play with your voice a little more... How do you know you've not played with it too far? Do you know what I'm saying? By playing with it too far and then getting feedback. Right. And people are so afraid of that, though. And they don't realise that they... they don't... go too far, they underplay.
The risk is not going too far. The risk is not going far enough. Again, at this point, when people heard me squeaking like Mickey Mouse, they're going to say, fuck me. You're going to have to remind me again, Vin, why this is worth it.
you'll be able to make people feel more connected to you. They'll feel what you're saying, not just hear what you're saying. I mean, do you notice this in some people? Of course. They will say things, but you don't feel it. It happens in America's Got Talent, Australia's Got Talent, where Simon Cowell will say, right, right, very good, but I don't feel it.
What are they talking about? It's the emotion in their voice. There is emotion in your voice too. Do you want to go to the next one? Please. I didn't know there was more. There's more. Yeah, there's five. Let's go through all five. No, next one. I'm just going to get you to read this one as you would.
And then I'll tell you what it is. Okay. Just so you don't get ahead of yourself. Okay. Okay, cool. And see, please tell me you know this movie. Far out, Stephen. I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you that I don't have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.
If you let my daughter go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you. I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you. I will find you and I will kill you. Yes, very dark movies. I love these movies. What movie is this? That is the movie called...
where his daughter gets kidnapped. What's it called? He's like, oh, do, do. Yes, it starts with an L, his name. Lion King, I'm joking. No, what is it? Right, from Taken. But here's the thing. So the next foundation is rate of speech. Okay. So if you were reading that, and I was kind of just giving you some coaching, again, as you were reading that, think of rate of speech of having a scale from zero to 10. Yeah. All right, so one being painfully slow, and 10 being as quickly as you possibly can.
So you were around playing a round of fives. Very comfortable. That's your default rate of speech. Most of us, when we're nervous, we just have a default rate of speech. We fall victim to a default rate of speech. When you think about rate of speech, there's a way to use it.
And the way you use rate of speech is if you really want to highlight a point creating an auditory highlight, slow down. That creates an auditory highlight. It's like a highlighter with your words. And if you want to be able to show charisma, energy, you speed up.
And if it's not as important, you can speed up and that's fine. This simple rule gives you vocal variety with your rate of speech. That simple rule. And what does changing my rate of speech then do to the message I'm communicating? It makes it more... Clear. Clear, okay. There's more clarity in it.
Right, so for example, if I was speaking and I said, right now I'm going to go through the five core vocal foundations and I'm going to take you first one through is the rate of speech. Then after that, I'm going to talk to you about pitch and melody. And then after that, I'll talk to you about the importance of the other three. Right now, you have no idea what is important and what is not important.
Okay, right. Whereas all of a sudden now, if I said, I'm going to take you through the core five vocal foundations, all of a sudden you now have a point of focus. And the big thing that people want with their communication is clarity. Well, if you are going to be more clear, the delivery needs to be clear so that the receiver gets what you intend. OK. It's not just about the exchange of information, because how I say something impacts how you receive it.
So I want to slow down where I want to hit emphasis. Yes. And this script has multiple places where you want to slow down. When people are nervous, what happens? They speed up. They speed up. They speed up. Considerably. Considerably. And have they ever measured that?
Does anybody know? If you get above 210 words per minute, you're a little bit too fast. And what's the average person speaking at in terms of words per minute? Around 150. You want to get to around 150, 180. That's very good. That's a good kind of rate of speech to be at. Whereas if you're slower than that, then again, it just gets a little bit monotonous at times for people. But again, here's what's fascinating. If I, if all of a sudden now...
I stick to a default melody and then stick to a default rate of speech. Notice what's happening in your brain, right? All of a sudden you start, again, you start to switch off, right? Whereas all of a sudden, if I start to vary my rate of speech, the transition from slow to fast is what's hooking people. So if you were to try to read that again now.
But I want you to slow and some bits painfully slow down and play with your voice and then some bits go quicker and then the last bit, I'm going to kill you, slow it all the way down and be playful. It's not about... Okay, I'm going to start from here. Sure. If you're looking for a ransom, I can tell you that I don't have money. But what I do have are a particular set of skills. Skills I've acquired. Over a very long career. Skip to the end. If you let my daughter go, that will be the end of it.
I will not look for you. I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you. I will find you. And I will. You. Yes, give him a big round of applause. That was amazing. Thank you so much. But again, you feel so strange when you do it. Yeah, I do. It's so fun to listen to.
And again, this is us practicing. This is a safe environment. I'm not, don't do your next podcast like that. But again, it just goes to show the range that we have access to. And how it changes the message in such a profound way. It's the same words. It's the same words, but when you read it the first time.
It didn't sound scary at all. Now I feel scared. There's something, I noticed this in like board meetings and stuff, especially with like younger team members or people that would class themselves as being shy.
that they do hurry along. And there is a certain... Someone said to me the other day that people that have the most... confidence and charisma they like move and talk as if a lot if they were a lion yeah yeah you know they're slow and they're composed prey versus predator yeah i remember listening to the episode it's fantastic yeah there is it's people who are confident
take their time. What's that third one? Okay. Just read part of it. You're more than happy to freestyle. Read part of it. Now, if you know what you're worth... then go out and get what you are worth. But you have to be willing to take the hits and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you want to be because of him or her or anybody. Cowards do that. And that ain't you. You're better than that.
Now, the thing is, this next one is volume. Oh, shit. Yeah. Volume, so critical. Okay. For many different reasons. Volume is the lifeblood of your voice. Volume carries all the other foundations you're about to learn. Volume carries the melody. Volume carries the rate of speech. It carries everything. And again, I think of it as having a scale from 1 to 10. And a lot of the times, like what you just did, people are around a 3.
A four. And they stay around there. When you use volume, there's two ways to auditorily highlight something with volume. Volume's fascinating because with weight of speech, you slow down. But with volume, to highlight something... you could go very quiet. Okay. So if all of a sudden I wanted to say something scary, I could lower my volume and say it. But then all of a sudden notice what happens if I just stay here now. What started as a great verbal highlight?
now just kind of seems, doesn't seem effective anymore. Because if you make something default, it becomes non-functional. And what signals I'm not a confident person? What side of the scale? The lower scale. Okay. On volume. Okay. Because that's one of the default shy behaviours that a lot of people exhibit. And what about leaders? Where do they land on the scale? Depends if they're self-aware. Sometimes if they're not self-aware, they can be on the higher end. And that's, you know.
You just have someone come across as a little arrogant. Sometimes it's just too much volume. Because too much volume without the other foundations, now you come across arrogant. So again, if I give this back to you, and again, just for fun. Like, I want you to go loud. I want people to hear outside of this studio what we're doing. So just have a go. And give me a whisper too. At some point, give me a whisper too. Now, if you know what you're worth.
Go out and get what you're worth. But you have to be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you want to be because of him or her or anybody. Cowards do that. And that ain't you. You're better than that. Oh, it's amazing. What you just did made me feel. Why did I feel? What is a voice? A voice is a series of vibrations. So you just sent.
vibrations my way that made me feel. That's why we say people have good vibes, right? We understand it's happening, but we don't understand at that kind of frequency level, at the vibration level, but it's happening at a physical level. where depending on how you use your voice, you're genuinely moving people quite physically. We did rate of speech, we did volume, we did the melody. Yeah. And then there's two left, right? There's two left, yeah. Right.
So this one, read it as you would. Parts of it. And it's not because I'm lonely. And it's not because it's New Year's Eve. I came here tonight because when you realise you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. What we're moving into now...
is the emotion that exists within your voice, tonality. This is the emotion that exists, right? So the way to add more emotion into your voice is to move your face. Because as I eloquently put it at times, your face is the remote control. that allows you to add emotion into your voice. So let's play, right? So now...
I'll give you different faces to make. I'll tell you different faces to make. And you make those different faces and allow those emotions to come through your voice. So if it's happy, then I want you to sound really happy. If it's sad, I want you to sound really sad. So we'll start with, and try your best to play with this. I want you to make disgust.
Like, just, ugh, disgust. And let that come through. And give me a more volume. Give me disgust in three, two. And it's not because you're lonely. Yeah. And it's not because it's New Year's Eve. Surprised. Really surprised. I came here tonight because when you realise you want to spend the rest of your life... Angry. Give me angry. You want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. Happy. Best day of your life, Stephen.
You want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. That's so beautiful. You know this already. In our brains, there's mirror neurons, right? And when I see you go through these different facial expressions, I feel what you feel. Even though I know this is a situation we've created here for us to experiment in. It's a safe environment. But every time you went through any of those emotions, I felt it. Because I didn't just see it. Are men worse at this stuff? Yes, they are. Yes.
Because I feel, well, for me, I can only speak personally for me, I was taught to keep my emotions on the inside. Right. I was taught that it's a sign of weakness to show you being sad, you being happy. You should just be... Composed. Composed at all times. And then that's what I thought.
And that led me to the behaviour of speaking, whereas I would just always speak like this because I'm a man and I should always speak like this. And I still remember going to one of the concerts and my wife turns over and she goes, how do you feel? I'm like, this is a really exciting concert.
And she goes, well, okay, you obviously hate it. And I'm like, no, no, I love it. I love it. And I just, I didn't know how to emote. And again, I thought I was stuck like that because I was stuck like that for years. And that damaged a lot of my relationships. Because here's the thing that I think, and it might be helpful for you too, when you're listening to someone talk, you don't have to react with sound because otherwise you'll be seen as interrupting the other person, right?
you can react with facial expressions. And that is one of the most powerful ways to show them you're listening and that you're following along. How cool is that? Because if someone's saying something really bad and you're like... Yeah. It shows them you're locked in. Yeah, you learn it as a podcaster. Yeah, you do. Because the audience, they're looking at you for most of the conversation. So 95% of the conversation's on you. Yes. What they don't know is that...
Throughout that time, I'm basically talking to you with my face. You are. And you're really good at it. So if I turn my head like this, it means tell me more. So you'll be talking a girl like this. And it means tell me more. And then it's interesting. And you can expand that range. It doesn't just have to be curious. Because I see you do it. I see you consistently do the different faces.
Give me the cue to almost go, oh, he wants to elaborate. Oh, he's in. He's locked in. Do you know, you can, the thing I've learned from both speaking on stage but also doing this is you can also fuck it up. You can also communicate the wrong thing. Yes. Accidentally. One of them that people communicate quite often with that. accidentally is they start talking while you're speaking do you ever know that like when someone's um listening to speak they start
they start going like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it means shut the fuck up. I need to, I have something to say. I just did it too. No, but it's that kind of thing. It's like, you know, I think, who was on my podcast? It was Vanessa. She said, If you do the fast nod, it means shut the fuck up. So if you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you do the slow nod, it means, oh, I love this. So if I go, oh, I've learned something. That's curiosity. Tell me more. Versus.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And wave my hand. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so tonality. So emotion. And that was so beautiful to see you do that. Because it just, again, we just have such great range. And then imagine you start to vary your rate of speech now. You vary volume. You've got different melody. You've also got different facial expressions. This is such a rich song that you're playing now.
Do you think much about the actual words you're saying as well? Of course. I can see that you think about the structure of what you're saying. I do. Because when you start speaking, I notice that you often go into a story straight away.
Something interesting. You'll say, this is one of the greatest things I've learned from my teacher. Is that intentional? It is. Because I believe stories are more sticky than me just throwing you a bunch of tips and hacks and tricks. Do you have a storytelling formula? I do. What is the storytelling formula?
I think the way most people tell stories is they report stories. So I'll share a story with you, okay? And reporting a story is, let's say you asked me the question. This is one of my favourite stories. Let's say you asked me how I met my wife. Reporting a story...
is just me saying, oh, I met my wife at a bar and I did some magic to her. She didn't like it and that was cool. And then I gradually was able to woo her in the end. But I met her at a bar. That's me reporting the story, right? It kind of sounds like a news reporter.
So if you think about it again, let me just anchor it with a news reporter. It's like a news reporter saying, last night at a bar at 9pm, Vin Zhang went to a bar called Distil and tried to pick up a girl, did a cheesy magic trick. It didn't work, therefore he failed. He came back four times again and then he saw her and then he succeeded and now they're married.
onto the next news, right? So it's kind of very reporter-y. Matter of fact. Matter of fact. Whereas this is the story of how I met my wife. So I still remember this because this happened in 2009. I crashed a girl's... graduation party named Vivian. It was at a bar called Distill, this beautiful bar called Distill. And there was two levels to this bar and the bottom was for everybody and on top was the high rollers and you had the...
buy expensive drinks to get to the top. And I got to the top and I saw this beautiful Malaysian girl sitting by the bar. So I said to my friends, I said, watch this. And I take a packet of cards out of my pants because I'm a magician. So I walk up to her and I say, would you be impressed?
if I transform this king of hearts into the queen of hearts like yourself? Disgusted. I know, you're making the disgusted face. And that's how she reacted. She looked at me as if she smelled a bloody fart. She looks at me and she goes... I'd be more impressed if you transformed into a real man, had a conversation with me. Boom. And I've never had that reaction before. Normally people say, wow, you're amazing. So I said to her, no, thanks. And I left.
tail between my legs, the boys all teased me and everything. But I was so drawn, her confidence, just, oh, there was something there. I went back to the bar four times in a row. She wasn't there, she wasn't there, she wasn't there, then she was there. And I walked up to her the second time and I said, hey. listen, what if I transformed into a real man tonight, took you out for a coffee? And we fell in love. You know, and that's the story of how I met my wife. Whereas the way...
I would normally tell that story. It's just, oh, I met her at a bar, did some tricks, she didn't like it, and then that was fine. Yeah. But all of a sudden, there was so much life, so much zest in that story. I noticed you added so much almost irrelevant detail. But you talked about the bar having two floors and stuff like that. To make it visual.
Okay, so I can picture it in my mind. Yes, I wanted to make it visual. Well, okay, so here's the thing. When you think of the storytelling formula, if you just give the who, what, where and when, that's the basics people need. But what turns it from reporting to reliving...
because that's what you want to get to. You want to get to reliving a story is the ingredients that you just called out. It's so intuitive of you to call them out. VAX, V-A-K-S, which stands for visual, auditory, kinesthetic and smell.
So I'm just describing those few things for you, right? And it doesn't always have to have all the ingredients, but you want to add some of those ingredients, right? So the visual I described to you, the visual, the auditory, what I said. I did my voice. I did her voice. I gave you dialogue.
Right? So all of a sudden you bring the story to life. Now it goes from reporting to reliving. So if I told that story, and let's say that now the connection ability is, again, it's to do with improv as well, is... Instead of just going out and saying, here's three ways to show up authentically when you're trying to pick up someone. Instead of doing that, I share the story first. I get you to engage. I build rapport. I build chemistry. Now...
You've heard the story. Now you have rapport with me. You feel more relaxed. You feel more creative, right? Then I link that story to, so the very next time you walk into a girl, if she does say no, she may not be saying no to you. She may just be saying no to your approach. Here are the three ways you can show up more authentically as a man. I believe that is a much more powerful way to then go into the three tips. Whereas I feel that...
Because of the world now with social media, we've lost the art form of storytelling. Just give me the three tips now. I've heard you talk about these four elements to a great story, which is the hook, the struggle, the breakthrough, and the...
application, which is kind of what you just displayed there. Well, the importance of application, I think, is something that I really focus on with my students. And by application, you mean the lesson or the big takeaway from the story? Because sometimes people tell stories and they go nowhere. Well, it's also what you do after. Okay.
Because I can share a story, but if I... One of our videos went viral. And I don't claim to be an expert on social media, okay? So I don't... I still don't understand how some of these things work, even though we've been able to grow all of our social channels quite quickly. I don't understand how it works.
To me, I'm like, oh, wow, I can't believe that worked last time. Oh, it doesn't work anymore. Huh, that's weird. So to me, it's what people love is when you give them a really simple, pragmatic takeaway that they can go and actually do. Like, go do it now. Whereas we don't apply knowledge. We just keep consuming and go through knowledge acquisition. There's a cycle of doom that we go through. There's just this cycle of, I mean, this is the cycle my students go through.
Oh, job promotion. Oh, crap, I need to work on my communication skills. What's the first thing they do? They go to Google. And then they Google how do I improve my interview skills, my communication skills. Then they get back 10.6 million results. They go, ah, this is too crazy. Surely someone's created a YouTube video. Then they go to YouTube. They type in how to improve communication skills. They get...
Three million videos. And they go, oh, this is to ChatGPT. I'll go to ChatGPT now. How to improve communication skills. And it gives you these generic answers from blogs that have no relevance to you. And then after that, you feel so overwhelmed. You do nothing with it.
But it's just this cycle we all fall victim to over and over and over again. We just keep consuming knowledge and nothing actually changes because we're not applying it. So the key is to get out there and start running some of these techniques in the real world.
And just pick one. Pick one and just try it. It's like we're going through all these different things. Right after this episode, go out and just try tonality with your kids and read them a children's book because those books are naturally emotive. And if you don't have kids...
Borrow a niece or a nephew. And just watch the impact on the other human being as you play with your instrument. Watch them smile. Watch them giggle. Watch them react to the way you play your instrument. Because then it wakes you up. to the fact that you've got access to this and that I can change the way someone feels. What power? Yet we don't use it.
I've just realised that there's one more left. There is one more left, yeah. Okay, I know what this was. Yeah, of course. If you didn't, I'd be quite deeply offended. I'll get you to read this, and we'll play with the last one. Okay. My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius. Correct.
Commander of the armies of the north, general of the Felix legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius, father to a murderous son, husband to a murdered wife, and I will have my vengeance in the life or the next. Perfect. Now we're going to read it again, except the final foundation here with the voice is pause. Whatever emotion comes before the pause, once you pause, it intensifies that emotion. So if you've got the feeling of anger and you pause, oh, that is a pause of anger.
But if all of a sudden I'm sad and then I pause... You prolong the sadness. It's a pause of sadness. And think about how important the pause is in music. And I love the world of music. I love listening to orchestral music. And when you think about it, what happens right after a crescendo?
It's a pause. Silence. The most important note that they played during that piece. Yet we barely use it. And what else does the pause do? When you pause, you give me time to process what you're saying. Yet we are so afraid of the pause. My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius. Commander of the Armies of the North. General of the Felix Legions. Loyal servant to the true... emperor, Marcus Aurelius, father to the murdered son, husband to a murdered wife, and I will have my vengeance.
In this life, or the next? Oh, beautiful. When you paused, you gave me time to process the weight of what you're saying. The first time you read it, you rushed through it. Just like that nervous employee in front of their leaders who just rushed through it. You may have just shared the most brilliant plan for a marketing campaign, but because you rushed through it, I didn't feel the weight of how profound the strategy is. There's something when you pause, you almost...
you tell the person don't you act almost inexplicably that they should really give a fuck about the thing you just said yeah like it really mattered it's important you know because you're like giving it space to breathe And do you see what all these foundations do? What do they give you ultimately? What does it ultimately lead to? Clarity. Do you think there's a certain set of those tools that when applied or a certain sort of style of speaking that makes people...
dislike you? Is there a sound one that just doesn't make them warm to you? Is it the low pitches? Is it the fast speaking? There's sounds that people don't like. For example, have you ever called I don't mean to pick on real estate agents, but it happens a lot to me in Australia. When you call a real estate agent, it's, hello, this is James from XY Real Estate. And when you hear that sequence of melody...
No worries, I'll put you on to the next person. And you switch off. You just go, oh, this person is just not really connected to that person. And all you have to do is you just tell them to switch the melody and just don't use that sing-song voice. And they call that a sing-song voice in the world of...
vocal training, right? You've got a sing song voice. And if you keep following the same rhythm, you have a sing song voice. So instead of doing that, just go, hey, it's James. How can I help, mate? You said the same thing. You just switched up the melody. That sounds a little more sincere.
Because it was a bit more varied. Exactly right. And it's not what everybody uses. Because once everybody uses the same thing, all of a sudden it now sounds like a script. That's why people are so afraid when they're creating content online. They go, I don't want to sound scripted.
there's a sound to it and it generally follows that. That's why newscasters, there's a sound to it. Last night at 9pm, there's that, there's a rhythm and then they keep using the same rhythm over and over and over and over again, the same melody sequence over and over and over and over again.
And am I right in thinking if I wanted to be really boring, I should just kill all variety? Kill all the foundations. Nothing. Give me nothing. And it's what happens when people, again, the people that I serve, it's what happens is because they go... I'll let my work speak for itself. And I say, that's great. That means you do great work, but why not speak for your work too? Why can't we do both? Why does it have to be one or the other? Yeah. It's a shame not to do your work justice.
You know, because you can do it a disservice just by delivering it without the foundations, as you've said. Yeah. And then other people, as you said, they can have half the idea, but double the... Double the showmanship. Yeah. And that happens too. That happens too, right?
So to me, it's about helping those who, they've got something amazing. You've got a story you need to share. You've got an idea you need to pitch. You've got incredible technical skills that you've worked on for the last 15 years. And you're thinking, why am I still stuck in this position?
It's, well, hey, let's do great work and let's allow ourselves to build the ability and grow the ability to shine. How does one increase their self-awareness as it relates to their... communication skills is there is there a practice i can do to understand if i'm good bad or ugly at this
If you are problem unaware to communication and right now you just go, oh, this is something I need to work on, then this is the three-step process you have to commit to. And just by doing this, it's going to dramatically change the way you talk. It's going to dramatically change the way you show up.
I call it record and review. And I learned this as a magician. And it's so practical when it comes to magic and communication skills. First step, record a video of yourself speaking for five minutes. A full five minutes. And people always immediately say, oh, what do I say, though? Google or ChatGPT, great conversational starters. And then use those for yourself and just talk. But it has to be impromptu.
because I'm trying to tease out core behaviors. I don't want you to give me a pitch that you've delivered 20 times already. I want you to just in the moment speak. I'm trying to tease out some non-functional behaviors. So once you've recorded that video of yourself for five minutes, leave it for a day. Video or just audio? Video.
You want video, you want to be standing while you're doing this, okay? Once you've got that video recorded, leave it for a day. Because when you watch it straight away, I'm fat, I'm ugly, I don't like myself, I hate the way I sound. You leave it for a day, you're thinner, you're better looking, you love yourself more.
Time and space, it's amazing. So leave it for a day. Then when you watch it back, you review it in three different ways. The first time, so you record on your phone, you turn the sound all the way up, press play, turn your phone over, just listen.
Here you're doing an auditory review. And just listen to your voice. And now, because you've listened to this podcast, you also have five vocal foundations you can think about. So now, auditorily, think about how's my rate of speech? How's my volume? Oh! My default rate is around a three. Oh, I speak really, and I stick to that. Oh, my default volume, oh my goodness, it's one.
Oh, wow, there's no tonality. There's no emotion in my voice. There's no pitch for right. Oh, I am not pausing. You'll be able to take so many notes and you'll be able to hear things you've never been able to hear before because most people avoid filming themselves. because I hate the way I look and I hate the way I sound, right? So to me, once you do that, you'll have a page of notes and a whole new level of awareness on your auditory communication skills. So the next step...
is now you turn your phone back around, you turn the sound and put it on mute, you press play and you just look at yourself. And then as you're watching yourself, because most people don't do this unless they're creators, you don't do this. That's why creators are such great communicators is because they do this.
That's why you're a great listener and a podcaster, because you watch yourself back. So now as you just watch yourself back without the auditory feedback, all of a sudden now you'll see things you don't normally see. Oh, wow, I'm swivelling a lot on my chair. Oh, wow, I don't use my hand gestures. Oh, wow, I put my hands behind my back. Oh, this is my big tick. I keep touching my glasses. I can't help it. Oh, I need to work on that. But you keep touching your glasses, right?
I keep touching my face, I keep touching my mouth, I keep fiddling with things. You'll see a whole bunch of non-functional behaviours that you've never seen before because you've avoided it and also because you have this idea in your head that you're stuck. You're not. It's just a series of behaviours. And then afterwards, the final form of review, don't listen to it and don't watch it. Get it transcribed.
because now you'll see the way you communicate from a different perspective. And you go, oh, my goodness, I ramble. I talked about the same thing over, because you see it from a different perspective. Sometimes you don't hear that. It's easier to see it. And then you see it, and I can see you reacting.
But that's what people do is they go, oh, not only do I ramble, because when you get it transcribed, leave in all of the non-words and the filler words. Non-words being the sounds we make to fill the silence, filler words being the words we use to fill the silence. And so, like, do you know what I mean?
This transcription is immediately going to reveal to you all of your auditory clutter. The things that you say, again, non-words and filler words, auditory clutter. That's the, again, the and so, like, do you know what I mean? highlight it with a red highlighter because it might not just be those. One of my big ones was OK. I taught online during COVID. As a result of that, because I didn't get the in-person feedback from my students...
I would always say okay at the end of my sentences because I wasn't getting any feedback. So I say, that's the vocal foundations. Okay, all right, now that's body length. Okay, okay, okay. And I didn't even notice I was doing it. But that process revealed to me immediately, oh, wow.
I didn't know that. I was able to remove that because it didn't serve. Why does it matter to remove the clutter words? You know, the like as, why does it matter? I'll give you... an example of it you know like um if i you know was uh taking you through like the um core uh you know vocal foundations you know like uh it decreases the clarity of the message
It's OK to have some. Be human. I get it. It's not about none, but it's about having some and not have your speech littered with it. Is it easy to overcome that? Yeah, it is. Because to get rid of that bad habit, you just need to learn a new habit. And the new habit is pause. So the very moment you feel like saying, um, we're not lagging, we're just pausing, right? You pause.
And that's why, as part of the vocal foundations, you have to learn to be comfortable with what we're doing right now, just pausing. And it's okay. So I've got my three sheets of paper there. I've done the auditory assessment. I've done the visual assessment. I've looked at the transcript and I've seen the words. And again, is it repetitions from there on after? Step before that. Okay.
Because normally what happens after you do that, and I know because my students have done it, and then what happens is overwhelm. Because they go, oh my goodness, there's like 26 things I have to improve. Which one do I pick? And then they'll have to DM me on social media. Which one do I pick? And then analysis paralysis. And to me is, it doesn't matter. Pick one. So what you do is, you create yourself a little 12-week plan.
And you plan it one week at a time. So first week, rate of speech. Great. So the whole week, you just look at rate of speech. At the end, what do you do that week? Record and review again. Did it change? No. Guess what you're doing next week? Rate of speech. And it's that commitment. And I love this Japanese word called kaizen, relentless improvement. And you all do this here amazingly. That's what you've got to commit to. And you focus on rate of speech until you see change.
And I used to do coaching. I don't do it anymore because I've got two kids and they're the most important people to me right now. But I used to coach CEOs and they would see my plan to help them improve their communication skills and they'd get pissed off because they'd go, I'm just doing rate of speech. I'm like, yeah, because your default is so slow. You're putting everyone to sleep. And if you don't change it after week one or week two, I'm still going to get you to do the same thing.
And just by increasing rate of speech alone, they became so much more dynamic. It took a month. We all know people that over-talk and over-explain. 100%. How does one know if they're doing that and how to change it? by being able to record yourself while you're in conversation with someone. And Zoom is amazing now. So all of a sudden now, if you want awareness on that, record yourself. And the beauty of recording yourself on something like Zoom is all of a sudden now, you can...
You can watch yourself and you see the other person too. Do you recommend someone like me, if we're trying to improve the communication skills of everybody in the company, to record our meetings and to send it after? 100% review it. And you... You may not get reactions when people say things because most people, the only thing they'll give you feedback on with your community, this is the only feedback anybody will ever give you on your communication. I felt like you talked a bit too fast.
They'll never say anything else because anything else is an attack on your personality, right? So people are very afraid to give you feedback, right? Especially you being the big boss. No one's going to give you feedback, right? So all of a sudden now, well, maybe they do. I feel like your team do. What I'm trying to get at is...
All of a sudden now, when you watch yourself back on those videos, you now will see their facial reactions. People are very honest with their body language. You've had body language experts on here. People might be able to lie with what they say, but all of a sudden, they tell the truth with their body language. You will see people do the silent yawn.
Right? You'll see people, they just do the silent yawn, right? They keep their mouth closed, but they're yawning. You will see these things if you start to reflect and review. And you go, oh, I shouldn't have said that. I took too long. I lost them.
You can see it. I do that with my classes. When I record, when I used to do my keynotes, I had a whole career as a keynote speaker. So when I did that... I used to duct tape two GoPros together and I'll duct tape the little red recording button so the audience doesn't know that I'm recording myself and I'm also recording the audience, only for my purpose, right? as I review my speeches. And I would watch back-to-back the audience faces and my keynote.
And you can see where you lose people because at a conference, their faces light up with their phone. You can literally see when you're losing them in the talk. And when you watch those back-to-back, it is so humbling because you go, wow. Did I go on for why? I thought it was a fun tangent. It wasn't. And then I kept that tangent in for bloody six months because I thought it added so much value. It did not add value. So the only way to get that awareness is...
You have to find opportunities where you can record yourself. Do you mind if I pause this conversation for a moment? I want to talk about art. show sponsor today which is shopify i've always believed that the biggest cost in business isn't failure it's the time you waste trying to make decisions time spent hesitating overthinking or waiting for the right moment when i started my first company at 20 years old i had no experience
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And when you went up on stage as a keynote speaker, was there anything that you did before you went on stage to make sure that you performed optimally? Because you were speaking, what, 80 times a year or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it got pretty full on. Yes, have a way to calm your mind, calm your body and get really focused. And the way I do it is the first thing I would do is Wim Hof, the guided bubble breathing. 30 times and then hold your breath.
And then a deep breath in, hold for 15 and then release. Three cycles of that. Oh, Stephen, my mind is relaxed. My body is relaxed. And then the next thing I do is I just do a little bit of brisk walking. Do maybe 10, 20 push-ups. Why? Because I'm getting rid of the adrenaline that's building up in my body. Because if you don't get rid of the adrenaline, you'll go on stage and you'll start pacing the stage.
And I've seen speakers do this where they pace. There's no reason for their movement, but they're moving because there's so much adrenaline in me, right? Non-functional movement, non-functional. So get rid of the adrenaline. So a little bit of brisk exercise gets rid of...
that adrenaline that you don't need. So I do those two things. And depending on how nervous I am, I may have to do a mindset shift. And the mindset shift is the only way you can become self-conscious and nervous is if you're thinking about yourself. So if you're not thinking about yourself and you have no cognitive capacity to think about yourself, then how can you be nervous? So think of the audience.
Before coming to this, I felt a bit nervous. I thought, you know what, I'm just going to think about Stephen and I'm going to think about his audience. How can I add the most value possible in this podcast as we talk? And the moment I thought about you and your audience, I don't have any cognitive capacity left to think about me.
So when you kind of think about this act of service, it shifts where you are. You're not in your own body anymore. You're not self-conscious. You're audience conscious. Helps. And is there anything you do with your mouth and your tongue? Yeah.
especially if I've woken up early in the morning and I'm jumping on a Zoom call with some foreign time zone, it feels like my mouth isn't quite there yet. And also it feels like my brain's not connected to my mouth. So first thing is lip trills. Have you ever done lip trills before? No. Okay, lip trills are this.
Perfect. And a lot of people won't be able to do that. So all you do is get your two index fingers, push your cheeks together and you can go... Do your favourite song. So you think of your favourite song and you, you know... Final Countdown, one of my favourites right now. Do that for an entire song. So do that for your favourite song. And once you've done that, if you do that for two to three minutes, now all of a sudden your articulators have woken up. You've also woken up your vocal cords.
and your lips now being the main articulators we use to shape the words that we say, it's awake. The siren technique is another great way to wake up your voice. And you've done the siren technique, which is read low and then go high. Read low and then go high.
The other thing that I learned from studying your work is this idea of the power sphere when you're on stage. This power sphere. I've got a picture here. You've got a picture of that. I learned this from Mark Bowden. Mark Bowden is an incredible body language expert, and I was lucky to do some coaching with him.
when I lived in the US. And he taught me this concept of the area between your belly button and your eyes. Yeah. And that's the power sphere. So when you're gesturing to people, a lot of people who are shy, they gesture below the power sphere.
Well, just like hands to the side. So again, they're doing all these different things, but they're doing this. They're like, oh, hey, great to see you. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. It's great, right? And why are they doing that? Because they're... Because they're playing small. Okay. Scared to take up space.
Right. And again, I get a lot of my female students ask me this question. They say, oh, Vin, I feel like I don't have enough presence. And I get the feedback. I don't get executive presence. What is this elusive thing called executive presence? It's simple. It's two things. It's vocal presence and physical presence.
And how you use your hand gestures allows you to level up your physical presence. So if you've got better physical presence because you're using your hand gestures within the power sphere, all of a sudden you've got that executive presence that they're talking about. So you need to get your elbows off your sides. 100%, yeah.
Again, I think of myself as having this sphere around me, the way that I remember Mark sharing this with me, and not be afraid to go to the edges of the sphere. Don't be afraid to go to the edges of the sphere. Otherwise, we tend to, a lot of people T-Rex it, right? They T-Rex it, right? Don't T-Rex it. Just have your arms nice out and big.
Don't be afraid to take up the space. And then there are foundational gestures you should learn paired with this. The first one, which you're doing already, this is Virginia Satir came up with these and she was a family therapist and she came up with the foundation to hand gestures.
This is placator. Try. So you've got your hands. For people that can't see, you've got your hands. Palm face up. Palm face up and out. Placator. Beautiful gesture to show that I have no weapons. I have nothing to attack you with. So this is placator. So you're showing your palms. Wonderful way to greet people as they come in. Hey! Instead of surrendering, just kind of hands up. Hey, great to see you. Okay. Beautiful. Great. However, it's closely related to its cousin, I don't know.
I don't know is this. So, again, it does lack authority. So if you want more authority, you use what's the second one called leveller. Leveler is hands facing down. So hands upon face down. Yes. It feels a bit weird doing it sitting down, but this is leveller, right? There's an element of control. Yeah, well, the hands face down. Well, try this. Try this. Give this a go, right? I'm saying this a lot to my daughter at the moment. She's very...
One year old, very sweet, very naughty. So again, say melody, don't do it. Say it's implicator, say melody, stop doing that. So just try it. So we'll count you down in three, two. Melody, stop doing that. Perfect, OK. You're going to do the same thing now in leveller. Okay, so give me more volume in three, two. Melody, stop doing that. I didn't tell you what to really even do. Did you notice how your voice changed? Yeah. My face changed as well. And what changed with your body?
What had changed with your vocal quality, sorry? It went, the pitch went, okay, the pitch went down. Yes, correct. And I didn't tell you to do that. Yeah. Right, so all of a sudden... Because I was doing anger, but frustration. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And no one told you to do that. That's a universal thing.
What's fascinating about what just happened there is people are afraid of a monotone voice and they don't realise that a monotone voice comes from a monotone body. So you just moved your body from this to this and you created a different sound. If the voice is connected to the body, the body is connected to the voice.
And the biggest mistake you see here within this realm here is, imagine you did a great keynote and at the end, imagine I did this. At the end of the keynote, imagine I did this. Right, are there any questions? Right, versus...
Are there any questions? I was going to say, with the level of one where you start pointing your hands down, I thought you wanted to get off stage. And I don't want any. I don't want any questions. The next one is called Blamer. Have a guess at what Blamer is. Pointing? Yes, correct. This is Blamer.
A very strong gesture. And then a softer version of that is the full finger point. You point with all your fingers. Politicians get taught this. They soften it, soften it a bit, and then they soften it with their full finger point.
I notice this on the podcast sometimes. I notice that people accidentally do it when they say something. Because they'll say something like, you know, entrepreneurs, they can be quite... sad because they they don't have that balance and as they're saying it they'll like accidentally point at me
to me but it does make contextual sense so they'll go you're entrepreneurs sometimes they don't have work like that and they're like they don't know they're doing it but they're like subtly gesturing in my direction um yeah I know what you mean. It's like, yeah, some people have put on a bit of weight. Oh, what? I didn't know that. Oh, my aunties do it all the time. Yeah. Again, it's just different ways to vary the way you look visually.
That's Blamer, you've got a softer version. And then you've also got this wonderful one they call The Computer. And Computer is a wonderful... an extra thing you can do when you're on a podcast and someone's, you experience or you hear heightened emotion. You can also respond with your face, but you can respond with your body too. You can kind of go into computer and computer is just one arm.
Under the armpit and the other one at your chin. You go, huh. One arm across and one arm. Some people call this the thinker pose, right? But you can go in this, you go, huh. Combined with a head tilt, soften it, right? Straight up is a little bit straight. Soften it. Is that what a head tilt does? It softens? It just softens it. Okay, I feel what you're going through.
And the reason they call it computer is I'm processing what you're saying. I'm leaning in. I'm showing you that I'm processing. As opposed to sometimes we're unaware. We don't move our face and we just sit there and they're talking and we're like this. Yeah. And they don't know if you're there. The sensitivity is when you sense heightened emotion.
So if they start to get a bit frustrated, you go... You can show them with your body too. Beautiful pose. Then the final one is distractor, which is a pattern break. It's an auditory and visual pattern break. For example, if you're on stage and you're talking and you've gone on a tangent, I've done this, maybe you've done it. And you realize the audience, they're all on their phones. Instead of continuing, you can execute distractor.
and do distract her to get their attention back. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I've gone down that tangent. Let me bring you back. Let me use a different analogy. So auditory, in that there's a clap involved. Visual, in that I'm shooing bees. Imagine me shooing bees as I was doing that. So clap and shooing bees. There's an auditory and visual pattern break that now allows me to get your attention back.
If you're doing this more than once in a presentation, you need to work on your rehearsal process. You need to work on you delivering the presentation in a way that's more coherent. I guess all of this stuff also applies to when you're making... video clips for social media. So many of us are building personal brands and trying to make content, but we make boring, unengaging videos. Yes, because you come to life. I'm coming to life visually.
What we're seeing here is I'm coming to life vocally and visually. Here's where people get stuck again. They go, but that's not me. Do you think... Right now I'm watching Beast Games and I'm loving it. It's just... I'm so addicted to it. Jimmy's doing great. And do you think Jimmy talks like that in his everyday life?
Do you think he goes home and he says to his partner, and next we're going to go to dinner. And for dinner, you're going to have three choices. He doesn't talk like that. But he understands that in that context, for that medium, the message I'm trying to communicate, I have to play my instrument differently to achieve the outcome that I desire.
and you're going to have to do the same thing in your life, whereas people are addicted to this idea of there's only one me. Do you know what's interesting? I think there'll be a certain cohort of people listening that just go, oh, God, this is so... I know. It's so much. It sounds so exhausting, Vin. And I just can't be bothered, Vin. I can't. You must have heard this before. I've heard it before. And I share with him that...
The idea of influence, you've got to understand that takes work. It's like saying, I want to become the best basketball in the world, but that's too much work. So it's a deal. If you want this, then this is how you get it. The world has really changed.
especially in the last couple of years post-pandemic, and much of our communication now takes place on video calls, Zoom, Google Hangouts, this kind of thing. How do the rules that you've said and you've talked about today apply or not apply to when I'm doing my... Zoom meetings. Yeah. It's even more important online. Because the moment you sit in front of a camera and you're not a creator, what happens?
The moment it's unnatural, what happens to you? Because it's weird sitting in front of a webcam. What happens to you, do you think? You lose yourself a little bit. Yes. Everything drops. All of your vocal foundations disappear.
So what do I need to be thinking about to be effective? I want to be the most effective person on my Zoom course. Because I do worry sometimes. I do worry because I have big investment meetings and stuff with startups or founders that I'm in the process of trying to do a deal with. And I think, God, if we do this on Zoom, it might not be...
so good. I might come across worse. I feel like I'll come across better in person. So I often move the meeting to in person. And then sometimes it's not always convenient, right? It's never convenient because you've got to drive somewhere and fly somewhere. So I'd rather be effective on Zoom.
Nothing will replace this. It's why I flew here from Australia. Nothing will replace this. If we did this virtually, it's not the same. But when you have to do it virtually, you have to give more of yourself. If you want them to feel valued, you have to adopt a mindset of generosity.
I'll explain. We often think of generosity as the first form of generosity, which is money, easiest form of generosity to grasp. And then you think about it for a bit more. You go, oh, it's time. Oh, okay, cool. And then you think about it for more. Often people don't... Think about the third form of generosity, which is energy. That's what the third form is. Because right now with you, I'm being generous with my energy. I'm choosing to do this, Stephen. I'm not just...
I'm choosing to do it because I want to connect with you, because I want to be able to share the knowledge and I want to be able to do this. Whereas there's a part of, again, there's a part of my brain that's like, oh man, you're jet lagged, you're tired, just back off a little bit and who cares, all good.
Whereas I'm now being generous with it. And online, you have to be so conscious of that. You have to be so much more generous with your energy. Because naturally, when you're sitting in front of a camera, you feel weird and then all of a sudden... It's like my wife, when she watches me run my classes, she goes, I can't be in the same room because I feel like you're being too much. And I am. Because when I'm teaching my classes on like four or 500 people,
I bring a much bigger version of myself to that class. I'm bringing a much bigger version than this. And then my poor wife's sitting there, she goes, oh, is this overdoing it? But to every single student on that class with me virtually, oh, man, this is so engaging. It's so beautiful to see how much zest you have for what you do. And afterwards, I'm exhausted. But it's a choice I'm willing to make.
to be masterful with what I do in that moment. Now make sure your camera placement is well placed. A lot of people, when they appear on Zoom, all you see is their head. Now that makes you less visually dynamic. Whereas this is why you need the external mic, push the laptop back. External camera wider lens let them see your whole torso Yeah, I love this
This is so important. And I learned this from Vanessa Van Edwards where you brought her on. Oh, yeah. Such a powerful, such a powerful concept where it's the idea of proxemics where there's... the study of distances. Most people, when they appear on Zoom, they appear in the intimate space. And the intimate space is when your head is right next to your partner at night where you're doing pillow talk. And that's how you appear on Zoom.
And when you appear that close, you feel self-conscious. Everybody else goes, oh, that's a bit. So if you all of a sudden now learn to appear in the personal and social space, which means they can see your full torso, that. People feel more comfortable, but now you also have access to your hand gestures. Light yourself well. Okay. And something very simple. If you're doing Zoom meetings all the time and it's critical for you in your work, then learn three-point lighting.
Right, three-point lighting. You've got that going on right here, right? And if you don't know what it is, if you just searched it, you'd find it. Which is essentially three-point lighting. You've got a key light, you've got a fill light, and you've got a hair light behind you. Right? Okay, so there's a light behind you. Yes. There's one on the side here. Yes. And there's one in the front. Is that what you mean? Yes.
Three key lights essentially. Okay, fine. Again, they technically call. My videographers teach me all this where they say, oh, you need a key light, you've got to have a fill light, then you've got to have a backlight. At the moment I did that on my Zoom calls, I just looked different to every single other person who appeared on that Zoom call.
Interesting. I'm just clearer. I'm crisper, right? And this is, again, if you want to take it to the next level. I want to take it to the next level. All right, then great. Then get a better quality camera too. Don't rely on the laptop camera. Okay. Right? A lot of people do this who are creators. You just get a nicer webcam.
Minimum 1080p. So you look sharper, you look clearer, and you're well lit. OK. Now you look better. Done. Perfect. Get an external mic. OK. Because if you spend all of your time working on all of these wonderful vocal foundations and if you've got a shitty microphone and then you talk, you've lost there again.
Fucking good Wi-Fi while you're out. Yes, please. Oh, Australia needs to listen to this as well. Fiber optic. Yeah, 100%. And then all of a sudden now, so your visual looks good, auditory is looked after. And don't be afraid to bring a bigger version of yourself. So much of this is about identity, isn't it? It is. We're like, so many of us, including me, we're trapped in our identity, like who we think we are. Do you know what one of the really remarkable things always reminds me how like...
BS, our communication style and our identity by way of this is, is just different accents. Yes. The fact that someone can live in an area and they can be scouse or they can, you know, live in another area and they sound... completely different, like they're from New York or something. It just goes to show that we're just, like, it's so contagious and easy to blend in with one's environment.
I remember experiencing a negative experience with accent. When I started to improve my articulation and I wanted to improve my pronunciation, everybody around me was saying, you're trying to be British. Oh, really? You're trying so hard to be British. I'm like, no, no, I'm just trying to improve my articulation, right? I used to slur my words all the time. Being an Aussie, we used so much slang. Yeah, I was gonna, but I didn't wanna.
Right? And I could get that to a point where you won't even understand what I'm saying. Yeah, I was going, I didn't want to. Yeah, nah. Didn't want to do it. Right? Whereas I didn't pronounce my T's. And then when I did pronounce my T's, instead of saying three, I would say free.
Can I have three of those? And that's how I used to talk. And I didn't realise by talking like that, people were making judgements about my intelligence. And I was like, what? I didn't even know this. I didn't even know that this was happening.
And all I was doing, and again, people tried to keep me the same because of identity. That's not how you should sound, Vin. The mould you are is you're a fob, mate. What are you doing? Why are you trying to be this British Australian? And I just said to them, because when I speak like that... It creates the wrong perception in people's minds and then they now look down on me as a result of that. There are some accents that experience more discrimination than other accents.
They did a study in 2006. It was a survey of the Chartered Institute of Personal and Development found that 76% of employers admitted to discriminating against candidates based solely on their accent. We judge a book by its cover, don't we? We have that. I have a thought, though. My thought is, and this is what I believe, is that I don't believe accents are a problem. I believe...
articulation and pronunciation are. Why do you think people think people from the UK are smart? There's this perception of it. Don't you get that? Where you're sophisticated. James Bond. It's because you articulate extremely well. especially the ones that make it to the movies, right? The ones we see. It's because of that. And you can have that level of sophistication and intelligence and you can radiate that intelligence with any accent.
I have students from India who, the moment they improve their articulation, it's beautiful. There's nothing wrong with your accent. For the longest time, they said, my accent is a problem. I said, no, no, no, it's not a problem. The problem is, and here's where we go deep.
Your whole life, you've learned the mouth movements to speak the Indian language. Then when you go speak the English language, you're now using Indian mouth movements to speak the English language, which are the wrong set of mouth movements to speak this particular language. But no one teaches us this.
And I used the Vietnamese mouth movements to speak the English language, therefore accent and lack of clarity. So what did I have to do? Learn the set of English mouth movements. Completely changed me. And how did you do that? A speech pathologist. Oh, really? I had to go see a speech pathologist, yeah. I struggled with this, Stephen, my whole life. That's why when people look at me now, very easy to assume, oh, he's born with the gift of the gab, and the reality, I was born quite gabless. Yeah.
And I share that because it is a skill that anybody can learn. When you say to me, you can't do this, you can't do that, to me, I hear, oh, Vin, I speak with my hands in my pockets and I'm stuck that way for the rest of my life. Take them out. Take it out. It's just a behavior. Yeah, I mean, when you told me that your English was your third language, I couldn't believe that. Yeah. Because there's no...
There's usually a remnants of the language you spoke before. There's like no evidence of it. Because this has become the primary language that I speak the majority of the time now. But even so, my mother, she spoke in, I guess she's Nigerian, so she spoke Nigerian for her childhood, moved to the UK when she was, I think, late teen years.
maybe early twenties, but there's always been the remnants of Nigerian and she's almost 60 now. So that's 40 years. Is that just because she hasn't tried to? Well, I think it's linked to identity. Right. I don't want to lose that. Okay.
I don't want to lose that connection. I don't want to lose that sound. It's why, again, most people don't change the way they sound throughout the entire course of their life. I'm not saying she should because there is something about your origin that gives you a little bit more...
That's right. Something a little bit more interesting. But when I look at some of the research, it shows that in terms of employment opportunities... I would love that study to be done in a way where the people who are speaking with accents... have incredible articulation of pronunciation as opposed to them speaking with poor articulation and pronunciation. There's a big difference. Research indicates that individuals who use non-standard speech patterns such as African-American vernacular
often face negative perceptions regarding their intelligence, competence, they have worse housing opportunities, and they have worse legal outcomes. Right. It's a profound... It is. ...adverse reaction just from how you speak. It's a real... unfairness, like an injustice, isn't it? It is. It is. It's like when I was... And it's one of those things where this is... It's super weird. I remember when I was becoming a professional speaker, some of my peers...
who were also Asian. I remember them saying to me, they said, hey, it's gonna be really hard, man, right? Because that's for the Caucasian man with white hair, the game you're about to play. And at the time I had blonde hair. Right, as an Asian guy. And they're like, there's this thing called a bamboo ceiling, Vin.
And I was like, what the hell is a bamboo ceiling? I've never heard of this before. And he goes, oh, it's a ceiling specifically for Asians because it's a bamboo ceiling. It's a ceiling we can't get past, so we call it a bamboo ceiling, right? And again, it's real, right, for many. And I believed it to be real. And for as long as I believed it to be real, I...
Didn't try. I didn't try to go for those gigs with these big Fortune 500 companies. I was like, ah, there's a bamboo ceiling. I can't. And I remember this quote from Steve Martin that truly inspired me where it's, be so good they can't ignore you.
And then there was a chapter while I was here. I said, you know what? Fuck it. There is no bamboo ceiling for me. All right? I refuse to acknowledge that there is this damn thing. I'm just going to get so good at my damn craft. I'm going to get so good at being on stage. I'm going to duct tape. bloody GoPros together and learn this game minute by minute. And I was able to soar in my career to a place where I never could go. And I had those limitations placed on me all my life.
All these different labels placed on me all my life, Stephen. And when I choose to believe in them, they had so much power over me. And when I chose not to at times, some of them weren't even real. And I was creating myself by speaking about them all the time. And I couldn't believe where I was able to go with my speaking career, the stages I was able to get on, these companies I was able to work. I said, is this even real?
Do they know I'm from the northern suburbs of South Australia, Adelaide? That's wild that you went from not speaking the language to being paid millions to speak the language. And to teach the craft. And to teach other people how to speak it. Yeah, my best friend says that all the time. He goes, it's the most hilarious thing in the world. And I hope that becomes a point of inspiration.
that it doesn't matter if English is your only language, second, third, fourth or fifth. These are just a series of behaviours that anybody can learn. And if this is what you want. Actually, it's even more extreme because... You were bullied for not being able to speak the language, so much so that you had to move to five different schools. And now you earn millions from speaking the language.
and teaching others how to speak it. Probably some of the same people that would have bullied you. Yeah, I actually had some of them reach out, which was crazy. You're joking. It was crazy. What a redemption arc. Yeah, there was a bully that stole a bike from me.
and broke my heart. My mum and dad worked for months to buy me that bike. It was 280 Australian dollars, which was huge during the 90s. It was an incredible BMX bike with stunt peaks and everything. And a bully found out where I lived and stole it and reached out 25 years later to apologise. I thought he was going to give me that fucking bike back, but he didn't. And what was crazy was it was so beautiful because because of the good vibes I've been able to put out, he saw who I had become.
And I thought it was so man of him. I respected him so much for that. And I think a part of me needed it too. When he reached out and said, hey, man, he said, I'm so sorry. And I said, hey, I can't thank you enough for this. Because there's been pain in my heart that I haven't been able to resolve. And you've just resolved some of that for me when you apologised and said sorry. Because my mum, again, it was just so meaningful to me, that bike.
you know and again i just i was so happy i was so blown away that he apologized you know it was really beautiful when dealing with people like bullies workplace bullies people that are insulting you or patronizing you What is the best technique conversationally to disarm them or to, you know, to stop them from doing it or to come out on top per se, whatever that might mean? The simplest version of that for me is to use...
Improvisation. Yes and. And instead of disagreeing with you, I will humorously agree with you. And again, I'm not sure if this is the best thing in the world people should do, but I diffuse this. Very simply, because I've had it happen to me all my life. They say to me, and it just doesn't give them a leg to stand on. They go, oh, you're an idiot. I'm like, yeah, I'm a bit clumsy at times. I know that. And they don't know where to go with that after that.
They go, oh, yeah, and you're stupid. You go, you know what, I've done so many stupid things in my time as an entrepreneur. If you've seen some of it, oh, I hope you haven't seen all of it. What's the yes and technique? The yes and is just when you acknowledge what they're saying and you're just building.
On top of it, right? It's like, yes, and you're right. Sometimes I can be a bit of an idiot. It requires you to remove your ego, though. Because, again, and you have to be okay with that because we're all flawed human beings. Aren't you letting them win, though, in that situation? It depends on how you define win. To me, I'm just not going to be hooked into this. Whereas before, I would defend myself. I'd be like, oh, what have I done that made you think that? But I'm not interested.
If you're not in the... I love this quote from Brene Brown where she says, it's I think from Theodore Roosevelt. If you're not in the arena with me, I'm not really that interested in your feedback. What if you... I'm in Dragon's Den. Okay. I'm in Dragon's Den. There's... 100 pictures a year, they come into the den, five of us dragons here, we're interrogating them, we're asking them difficult questions. Based on what you know about communication, how should they handle our...
critiques and our challenges? Is it that yes and thing? Because what's the opposite of yes and? The opposite of yes and is yes but. Right? And the classic scenario is if you said something to them simple as, and I remember sharing this with one of my clients where I saw in their calls when people were...
arguing with them about their prices, they would say, yes, but the reason we're more expensive is because we spend a lot more on R&D and we update our software all the time. So all of a sudden, when you say yes, but you're taking your conversation... to a negative direction. But means whatever you say, I'm going to negate that and I'm going to give you my version of reality. Whereas when you say yes and, you could critique them and say, oh, I think your services are too expensive.
Yes, and Stephen, the reason for that is because we invest heavily in research and development. So all of a sudden, when you say yes, and, you're taking it in a positive direction. You say yes, but you're taking it in a negative direction. One, we're going to build upon this, and we'll work through this. One, I'm negating what you're saying and I'm just going to share and force my version of my reality. It's a simple technique in the world of...
It's so effective, though. I see it in the den all the time. I see when my fellow dragons will be, like, interrogating someone, and I'm watching, and I watch some of them. They go, yeah, but, but, but, and they just get the person's back up.
Like they just, it's like, it becomes this real antagonistic exchange. And it reminds me of Tali Sherratt, who's a neuroscientist that was on my podcast, who told me they did studies where they put two people in these like brain scanners and they got them to agree and agree and agree and scan their brains. And when they agreed, their brains were...
Then in the next round, they got them to disagree at a certain moment. And when they disagreed with each other in these brain scanners, their brains basically shut down because they've gone into... Shut down. When I say shut down, it's like the lights went out.
And so she taught me this law that I wrote about, which is called never disagree. When you say that, people go, never disagree. Doesn't make sense. Doesn't make sense. That's what yes and is so good for. Even if you say something negative, it's all right. Even you say that your content sucks. Yes, and I know sometimes we put our content that just misses the mark. I'm human. And then there's no fire now because we're not creating the friction to create a fire. And I again take that...
path because I'm just not interested in just arguing for blatant argument. I'm just not interested in that. The other thing that people struggle with a lot and we talked about it a tiny little bit earlier on is starting conversations and small talk. It's difficult. I think it's becoming increasingly more difficult as we become more sort of digitalised in our lives. It requires so much courage.
I feel that starting a meaningful conversation requires a lot of courage. This sounds like a crazy fucking thing to say on a podcast in 2025. How do we start a conversation with another human being? I've got a favourite technique that I use.
And it requires courage. So you have been warned. It requires courage. And it's a game, simple game, called Hilo Buffalo. Hilo Buffalo. I love this game. Oh, you're not aware of this. Again, because you haven't played in the world of improv. Hilo Buffalo. High is something that's going great for you. Low, something that's not so great for you. Buffalo, something interesting about you. Now, there's a reason why this game is so great.
It's great because if I play Harlow Buffalo and you play Harlow Buffalo, and we'll play it in a second. Are you game to play? Yeah. Okay. Then what we're doing is we're creating something called conversational threads. Let's play first. So do you want to go first or do you want me to go first? You go first. Okay, sure. Hi.
I'm doing the Diary of a CEO podcast. This is pretty awesome. So I love that about this. This is amazing for me. This is a big high for me. Low, I'm really struggling with what is enough. in this chapter of my life and how much I should pursue building my business, how much I should grow it. I'm really struggling with that enough component. And something interesting about me is I have three alpacas and I live in an acreage.
Gosh, that's crazy. I've got to beat alpacas now. Don't beat alpacas. Whatever you like. I've got a dog called Pablo. Yeah, there you go. You're overthinking it. Don't overthink it. Give it a go. Hi, I'm really enjoying this conversation and I'm learning a lot, which is amazing. Lo, I haven't been working out in the gym.
as much as i want and i'm concerned that my like balance is off because i'm recording a lot and things are out of whack and i'm trying to work in the evenings and that's a struggle trying to squeeze my relationships in there as well um random interesting thing uh
I'm training for a marathon that I haven't signed up to yet. That's incredible. I didn't know you were going to do that. That's incredible. That's not as good as alpacas. And definitely wasn't as good as alpacas. However, that's great. Okay. When you have the courage to do this with someone now.
I've given you three conversational threads that you can pull on. Do you say it to them that we're going to do Hilo Buffalo? I play this game with people I meet that I want to connect with. Okay. This is not if I'm on the bus and I'm talking to someone. Okay. No, because that's generally small talk. And if you don't want to connect with a person...
Doesn't make sense. But what if I'm in an elevator, I'm in a social setting, I'm at a networking event? Well, the game I just gave you is different. The game I gave you is a game that you play with a colleague you've been working with for the last four years, but you barely go beyond high. Okay.
Right? And we'll stick to that and then I can share with you the other one. But to me, what's powerful about that game we just played is we all have people... The reason people hate their work so much is because they don't feel connected. And it's because they're not having conversations at work. It's because they don't feel a sense of connection with their team members.
So to me, when you are courageous enough to play this game, say you've been working with Susan for 12 months and you always see each other in the lunchroom, but you never... You just sit down with Susan and go, Susan, I know this is a bit crazy. Listen to a guy named...
Vin on Dario, CEO, he said, if you want to connect with someone and you care about the connection, play a game called Hilo Buffalo. Are you game? Play. And just do what we just did. Because all of a sudden now, I've given you three threads, right? Excited to be here. Also...
struggling with enough. And then I also shared with you, I've got three alpacas, I live in an acreage. There are three things that you could choose from, what you're interested in asking me about. You just gave me three things. I'm also very conscious about health and I haven't been that great with it too. So all of a sudden we can, I've got three threads to choose from.
What's the opposite of that? Did you watch Mr Beast? Oh, I haven't. Who's Mr Beast? Oh, that's cool. I'll see you in the meeting at two. I'll catch you then. No worries. Because you've taken your shot in the dark and you've given one thread. And it just didn't hit. Whereas I'm giving myself three chances here. I'm giving three opportunities for a conversation to spark. But in actuality, there are six threads here. Because there's three from me, there's three from you.
I'm going to roll around the office when I get back to London and I'm going to ask people for some Hilo Buffalo. And just because all of a sudden that requires vulnerability. That requires something you're excited about. And it's also something interesting. You didn't even know. I didn't know you were going for a marathon, man. That's awesome. Right. You should sign off for it. Yeah. What's stopping you? ... ... ... ...
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Small talk is so critical. I was reading this study that said 55% of relationships, both professional and personal, are formed through small talk and casual interactions. A study done by the University of Oxford. And it says that 80% of conversations in the workplace involve some form of small talk. That's Harvard Business Review. If I want to be a master at small talk, is there anything else that I need to know? I really struggle with small talk. Three, two, one.
I tell my students, three, two, one, which is three steps, two types, or the one thing. So just have that in the back of your head. There are three steps to something, there are two types of something, or the one thing. is so when someone's talking to you you want to keep it fairly brief and you want to kind of minimize that small talk and you know you don't want to turn it into big talk they'll talk to you about something and you go the one thing about building a personal brand is xyz or just x
So you get the one thing about personal branding, if I could share with you now, is the importance of being consistent. Hey, so good to meet you. Let's take a quick selfie and then you go.
So again, you have that framework in your head. Whereas before, when people ask me, what should I do with my communication skills? I got stuck in the trap of, oh man, I've just heard you talk. There are so many things that I can tell you. I can tell you immediately now, there are eight things you probably should start focusing on in this sequence.
But then now it turns into something I don't want it to be. So now I have that framework. I just think, all right, so in response to this, can I go down the three steps to what they're saying? the two types of what they're saying or the one thing about what they're saying is this. And do you think I should have some... Nuggets. Nuggets. Some questions in my back pocket that I roll out frequently. Some pre-prepared small talk things that aren't... Have you seen the weather?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You should. And these are important. And you can create your own. I mean, I love the what do you do in your free time. I really enjoy that question because it opens up so many doors to so many interesting things that people do, as opposed to them telling me what they do for a job.
Because we've heard this many times before. When someone asks you what they do for a living, I'm trying to understand where you are in the status hierarchy. I love what you do in your free time. I genuinely love that question. And have a list of three to four questions.
Just have them in your back pocket. That framework of 3-2-1, though, that allows you to get out of that small talk in a brief manner. They ask you a question about personal branding. Oh, there's two types of personal branding. Oh, hey, the three steps to personal branding are, or, hey, the one thing about personal branding is...
Hey, good luck. So good to see you. Let's take a quick selfie. Is there an art to having a difficult conversation? So say someone has been... always interrupts me at work. Do you know why it happens though? Why? Because of low levels of physical and low levels of vocal presence. If I talk to you like this and I'm going to show a really good idea with you and...
It's so easy to interrupt this person. So you have to fix that at a foundational level. You have to increase your vocal presence. You have to increase your physical presence because it's infinitely harder to interrupt this version of VIN.
as opposed to the version of Vin you just experienced before. That's the first thing I would say. At a foundational level, that's what you want to fix. And again, that's to do with volume, that's to do with hand gestures, power sphere, all the things we've spoken about. And by levelling that up... It's much harder to interrupt this person. Yeah, I couldn't interrupt this guy. It's harder. Yeah. Whereas all of a sudden...
People aren't aware of that and they think, oh, people interrupt me just because people are rude. No, no, it's because you haven't indicated that you're taking the floor right now. This is why I say to people who get interrupted all the time, all right, here's another simple strategy. If everyone's sitting around a team meeting...
stand when you're about to deliver your point. Because when you stand, you now have more physical presence. So all of a sudden, people won't interrupt you as long as you're standing because I'm still talking. the biggest objection people have to the pause is they say, oh, but if I pause, people interrupt me. Not if you're standing. If you're standing and you pause, it's clearly a pause for effect. I'm still taking the floor.
So there are so many other things you could do to prevent it from happening. You can even prime the conversation. If you know there's a serial interrupter... Sorry, I do this sometimes. If there's a serial interrupter in your environment, and I was just pointing at myself there...
I don't interrupt because I want to be a jerk. Sometimes I feel like, oh, I want to add value. And I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. That's what most of them want to do. But then there's the 1% that are just serial interrupters.
I just always, I always, I want to take the floor. They didn't respect you. They didn't respect you, yeah, I want that floor. That, very difficult. You have to have a private conversation with them outside. But to the 99% of people who are interrupting because they want to add value...
You just need to prime the conversation. You just need to say, hey, look, to everyone in the team, I want to share my idea. If you give me five minutes at the end of it, I would love to ask for your input, but I'd love to share my idea completely and wholly. Is that okay? And I just get them all to agree.
And if they do butt in after I've said that, I can let them say the thing. I'll go, thanks, Stephen. I'm still sharing the idea. I'll come back to your question in a moment. And you have to reclaim your land. Do you think you have to mirror someone's, you know, you talked about these five foundations. Am I meant to mirror yours to relate and resonate with you? It's one of the fastest ways to build rapport with someone. We learn about it through body language.
I think a lot of people understand the concept of matching and mirroring when it comes to body language, right? If you come up to someone and you want to build rapport quickly and they've got big body language, if you do the same, then it will help them feel more connected to you, right? People rarely think about it with their voice. And that's the same thing. The years of going on...
stage and speaking I've had so many people come up to me where if imagine someone comes up to me they're like oh hey Vin that was an amazing keynote and I took that same energy Vin on stage to go oh thank you so much for coming up hey thank you I appreciate it you'd freak the hell out of them right so instead of that
I match and mirror their vocal foundations. I'm like, oh, hey, thank you so much for coming up. I know it's a bit scary to sometimes meet us, but, you know, when we fart, it still smells. Hey, thank you so much for coming up and connecting with me. The idea is you don't stay there though.
You meet them where they are and then you take them to where you want to go. So I'm meeting them where they are so they're comfortable and we build rapport and connections. I'm like, oh, hey, so good to have you come up. Thank you so much. And, hey, if you took a moment for a second, what was your favourite part?
What did you really connect with when you were talking to me? So I met them where they are, and then I slowly bring them to where I want to go. And it happens like magic, where you will see them slowly come out of the show a little more. You've got to meet them where they are first. To build that rapport, I've heard you talk about this thing called Ford. Yes.
F-O-R-D. We're talking about family, occupation, recreation and dreams. And what's the context there? Well, these are the points of conversation that I could talk about if I wanted to engage with that person for a longer period of time. Instead of just thinking about what they do, that's what I always used to do.
I always just think about career occupation. Oh, what do you do? I tend to default to that when I was in the keynote speaking career. But then FORD is just a wonderful acronym to go, well, there's so many other things we could talk about. There's so many other things we could talk about, right? I could talk about family.
recreation, occupation, and your dreams. And why does having a broader set of things to talk about cause more resonance and connection? Because that interaction feels different to every other one. Otherwise, it always feels like occupation. It's always about occupation.
I just love having extra things to be able to go to. Like the dreams, again, I love asking people that question. I love watching, there's a gentleman named Simon Squibb who's been able to own the brand of what is your dream, right? It's such a powerful question. And it causes people to pause and think, what is my dream? It sometimes can lead to pain, sometimes leads to wonderful conversations. There's something about the depth of the question, I think, as well. It hits people.
Yeah. It hits people. Especially the vulnerable thing. When you started saying that you were struggling with too much. Yeah. There's something that changed in me. I was like, oh. Yeah. He is human. That's why High Low Buffalo is so powerful. is because, and that's why I say it requires courage, because I know that the moment people heard me say that, they clench their butt cheeks. They're like, oh, no, I don't really want to do that. But the moment you do it, it changes everything.
It shows I'm human, it shows I struggle, it shows I've got things that aren't going that well. You know, when we had the conversation on the podcast with Vanessa about body language, one of the things that I saw in the comment section was people pointing out that in different cultures, different rules apply. It's kind of what I was saying earlier about being British. We're a bit more conserved.
Do you need to sort of overlay all this advice with cultural nuance? 100%. A motivational speaker from America coming to Australia doesn't work well. Because if they come to Australia, they're like, oh, get on your feet, let's start. Australians are very sceptical, like those in the UK, and we kind of sit back, we're like, yeah, nah, mate, we just started. We're not doing that just yet. And that's why when American speakers come to Australia, they're like, oh, they're so...
it takes them a long time to get into it because we're so sceptical in Australia too, right? I think we kept that as we went to Australia from the UK. And there's still that... So you've got to be sensitive to that. And before you go and speak in a certain country, I think it's very important to go, right, what are the cultural norms? And expose yourself to the... I've made mistakes before. I've done the ultimate mistake. There's a bit in my keynote where I say, I told my dad I wanted to...
leave accounting and become a magician. And my dad said, what the hell? You want to be the Harry Potter, right? So I play, right? I play a little bit with the voice. And then I went to Asia and I did the same accent. No one laughed. And I went... Right. No sensitivity there. I didn't realise it. Well, A, they didn't find it funny because they're like, oh. Yeah. Ah, I was sweating.
And then they start to slowly realise, oh, he's taking the piss. Oh, and then the audience turns against you. I've done it wrong many times before. I've done it wrong as many. And again, that's how you learn. But people don't want to learn that way anymore. They don't want to pay the price of failure. That's the only way you learn.
And so many people hate hearing their own voice. They do. I remember the first time I heard my own voice, I couldn't believe it, when I was recording those little cassettes back in Plymouth when I was a kid. Do you know why? No. It's because... When you hear your own voice, you're hearing the vibrations through bone and muscle tissue. You're hearing...
those vibrations. So they sound deeper, more resonant to you. So when you hear your voice, you're like, oh, I sound like Barry White. So you think you have this deep, rich voice because you're hearing it through a different medium. Whereas when you open your mouth and you speak to another person,
The medium is not muscle and bone, it's through air. So it's less dense. So it sounds higher pitched. So one of the main reasons people hate it immediately is they go, oh, why do I sound like this? Whereas in actual reality...
It's because it's going through a different medium. One's going through bone and one's going through muscle. The other one's going through the air. So this is why I thought I could sing and then when I recorded singing and I played it back, I was dreadful. Made the same error. I couldn't believe it. I thought something was wrong with the recorder. Yes. And that's what happens to everybody.
And it's also the same thing with why people hate themselves on camera. It's because you see yourself in the mirror and you see yourself the way you see yourself in the mirror and then you see yourself in camera and it's flipped the other way and you go, whoa, I don't look like that. Why does this part of my face look different? Well, it's because...
That's what everybody else sees, but you've been looking at yourself in the mirror your entire life. You've been listening to yourself through bone tissue and muscle your entire life. So how do I overcome that? Desensitisation.
You have to listen to yourself. Do you still care about your voice? Do you still listen to it? Yeah, you don't care anymore. You love the sound of your voice now, don't you? I wouldn't say I love it, but I'm so used to it. It doesn't make me cringe anymore. Because you've desensitized. Because you're now hearing what other people hear.
And again, that's why you should record videos of yourself. And I still think that record and review thing, if that's the one thing you do after this, if you pick three things to change after you do that process, it's going to radically shift the way you come across when you speak.
Imagine you are only three changes away from completely transforming. That's all that it takes. I've seen my students do this time and time and time again. And I wish I was able to show you in these video examples when... All of a sudden, they just shift more melody, more volume, larger body language. It's a different human being. It's crazy. And again, I'm not saying be that all the time. It's now you having gears, right? It's like a car.
Most people just one gear. And I'll bring that one gear, that one communication style to every interaction. Why is it not effective? Do you think this whole introvert-extrovert thing is bullshit? I asked my vocal teacher this. And I said...
Like, what's the difference? And she asked me this question in return where she said, that pianist you saw at the concert I took you to, if they're an extrovert, how would it be different when they play the piano? And if they're an introvert, how would it be different?
And I said, I have no idea. She goes, it's the same thing. Just you're playing your instrument. The only difference between introvert and extrovert is an introvert, they lose energy from social interaction. So you have to be highly digital. You have to be highly diligent.
when you're expending that energy and you're playing the music for people. You have to be extremely diligent. Whereas those who are extroverts, they can play it for a longer extended period of time. So again, for an extrovert, it's just about choosing when you do that, choosing when you play beautifully. As opposed to, oh, I'm an introvert. I should just talk about this then because I'm an introvert. He's like, what? Really? Social anxiety.
Some people do have like severe social anxiety. So many of the things, they might have clicked on this conversation because they're interested, but they have no... belief in themselves that they could ever change because they literally, their body goes through almost like a panic attack when they're in these social situations. What do you say to those people? It's the slow process of desensitization.
It really is. I find it. Exposure therapy, yes. I find it. And I was that. I mean, the whole reason, the only reason I learned magic in my life was because I felt like I had no value. And I had to go learn a whole craft.
to have value so that I could be amazing because by myself I'm not amazing. That's why I learned magic, because I felt like I wasn't amazing. And then when I had this amazing thing, then everyone thought I was amazing. I was like, oh, I'm amazing now. But then one day I forgot my cards at school and then...
All of a sudden I went home and I had some social interactions. I went, oh, I'm not amazing. What I'm trying to say here is, instead of picking something like magic and then using that as a crutch, because I did. And then in every conversation with you, I would have to do magic with you first before I do anything else. Because if I didn't, I don't feel confident. Now I feel like I have nothing to give. So to me, this is why I push communication skills so much.
Let me share with you a story. Let me give you a little bit of context. When I was 13, I went to year eight camp, freshman camp. I had a really good friend at the time named Kevin. I saw him playing ukulele around the fire camp. And for the first time I saw Kevin talk to girls. Me and Kevin bonded over the fact we would never talk to girls because I couldn't do it, he couldn't do it, and we bonded over that. That night he broke that.
that trust. Because he was talking to girls and he was playing his ukulele and he was amazing. And I felt so pissed off at him. I ran back to the cabin and the next morning I went, the only friend I have here is now talking to girls. And then the next morning I see him.
at the breakfast table by himself. And I was like, what? This guy was the bee's knees last night and now he's by himself? What the frick? And I didn't understand that for the life of me. And then I experienced it in my life with cards. When I have a packet of cards, I could talk to anyone.
But then when I didn't have my cards, I couldn't talk to anyone. I had crippling social anxiety. And I went, oh, this is what we call contextual confidence. Oh, interesting. So in certain contexts, I'm more confident. Even the people you're talking about who are...
anxious. There are certain contexts where they are contextually confident and they light up. There's a certain topic that if someone talks about it, they might think of themselves as being a bad communicator, but because that topic comes up, they now are a great communicator.
So then the idea of contextual confidence led me to really working out that communication skills is such a critical skill set. Why? Because if I master the use of my voice, if I master the use of my body language, I master the ability to storytell, can I leave my voice at home?
Can I leave my body language? Can I leave my ability to storytell and connect with other people at home? You can't. Now you have this ability that follows you everywhere you go, meaning you become contextually confident in every single area of your life. Do you get tired when you go home? Yes, 100%. I can imagine, because you are high energy. Because I choose to give. Yeah. I'm consciously choosing to do that. And there are times when I choose not to.
so that in the times where I do give, I can give you the best version of me. I didn't leave my... Our interview today was 4pm, right? I didn't leave the hotel room at all, all day. Why? Because I'm conserving that energy for you. Okay, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. And to the point where my videographer was asking me, he said, hey, dude, are you all right? And then he goes, look, just, I love him. He was so concerned about me. He goes,
Just wave to me outside of your window so I can see you. And I opened the door. I was like, oh, this door opens. And I waved. I was like, oh, cool, cool, cool. Vomit on your sweat. Because I didn't leave my motel room, right? Because I was conscious of that. That's crazy.
I was just conscious of that. I appreciate it. Thank you. That's all right. That's all right. I was already jet-lagged. I didn't want to be shit. No, but I can relate as well because I sometimes wonder if energy is finite. Well, it is. Because I do this podcast and then I'll go into the real world and I just... I don't want to have... I'm so... I'm depleted. Yeah. And I always wondered if that's something I could do something about, if I just need to buck up and just, you know...
There's only so much of that you can do and it is a limited supply. That's why it's so beautiful when someone is willing to sit and be present and play their instrument with you because it's a conscious thing. Whereas I used to approach every interaction with, oh, bring the bare minimum. And I didn't understand that exchange of energy, you get so much more out of life when you give more.
Not just with money and time, but with your energy. There's a transaction here that's happening, that's invisible. And I treat, like, it's so weird and it doesn't happen because I have a lot of followers, lots of people don't know who I am.
on the way here, I got upgraded on my flight because I just built connection with the person. And I thought, you know what? I'm just, this person has probably had a lot of boring conversations. I'm just going to make them laugh. So I just spoke, make them laugh. And they're like, oh.
And it happens. I feel like I've just found this cheat code in life where I keep my energy when I need it and when there are times I need it, I'll use the energy. Like a currency. Yeah, it is. And I'm not, I didn't think they were going to give me an upgrade, but they did, which was so cool, right?
And they felt good too. You probably hypnotised them or something. Yeah, I don't know. Imaginary. It's an energy bribe. Going back to what you said earlier, you said that you're at a phase in your life where... You're struggling with the thought that when is enough enough? Yeah, it's been really hard. Yeah. I mean, are you feeling this?
Because as you build your personal brand, as this podcast reaches more people, as it is already, as it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, more and more and more opportunities come along. The momentum gets faster and faster and faster. It becomes harder now to... What is that struggle, though? So struggle implies that there's two forces pulling in two different directions. So describe both forces to me. There's a part of me that is very ambitious.
But my identity now has been upgraded. I'm not just entrepreneur, I'm dad. And there's a pull between the entrepreneur in me and the dad in me. And it's mutually exclusive. Yes. And they're both so strong. And I've never felt it this strong. My daughter's about to turn one. My son's seven turning eight. And these forces now, Stephen, are so strong because my father was so good in my life, such a pillar in my life that I used to be away 180 days a year.
I missed out on so much of my son's upbringing. And I don't want to make that same mistake. And again, I didn't realize there was this, I didn't see the correlation between success and sacrifice. I drank the Kool-Aid. I thought, you can have everything. You can have everything. And I haven't found a way to do that because the more success I have, there's sacrifice that comes right behind it. You know, and I've just am learning what is the amount of sacrifice that I'm willing to...
And it's so hard because as I value being, the more I value being a father, the bigger these opportunities that come along as well. And then you're like, oh. So it's this constant push and pull. And how are you navigating that? In terms of have you got a framework for the decision or a framework to know what you should say yes to and what you shouldn't? Every six months, I do a process called Recalibrate.
And recalibrate is a process I came up with one of my best friends and myself, Ali Tarai. He's one of the founders of a company called Future Golf in Australia. And we go away for about half a week to a week and we get permission from our families. And we review and reflect on the last six months and how we've lived and the decisions we've made. And we go through memorable moments. And we go through down moments. And because we both journal.
we can reflect back quite accurately on, oh, what made us feel shit in the last six months? And then we save ourselves from doing those same actions in the next six months. And then the things that made us feel good, we go, all right, those go in the more of category. So now how can we do more of those things that made us feel good? So the way I protect myself from that...
is by doing this process. But even then, the push and pull is, it's always ever present. That struggle is always there. What is your ambition? I told you about my two kids. I had very selfish ambitions early on in my career, very ambitious, my own, which was to make a lot of money, to be able to do all these different things that I wanted to do in the material world and all of that.
And then my son was born, and he was born in 2017. And we were in America, and we were first-time parents, and we didn't know what to expect. We didn't have many friends while we were here. We were super isolated. So we didn't have other kids around my son. And I still remember this trip I went on to Japan with my cousin and her husband. They're both psychologists. And we're one week into that trip.
And I remember them saying, hey, we have something really important we need to talk to you about. And I was like, what the hell, guys? Why are you being all serious? What's going on? And they sat my wife and I down and they said. We think Xander is autistic, my son. And at that point, because I thought it was because of me being away. I thought it was because, oh, because I'm away so much that you didn't want to connect with me.
And they confirmed that they said all these things, eye contact, maybe he won't be verbal, maybe... It was one of the most difficult periods of my life. And then my wife leaned over and she said, do you think it's by chance? that one of the greatest things that people who are on the spectrum struggle with, you're really great at. Do you think it's by chance that he came to us? And at that point, I was...
not teaching communication skills really yet. And it's almost a very selfish goal. But the reason I teach it is because I think you know that one of the main... things that happens when you teach something, Stephen, is that you become better at it. You deepen your knowledge in that arena. You get better at teaching it. You get better and better and better at teaching it. A big part of my ambition in this chapter of life is to get so good at teaching this that I can help my son.
You know, now my son talks. My son gives me eye contact. Just last year, my son did the most amazing thing where I was teaching a class filled with hundreds of people. And... He just walks up on stage, grabs the mic and talks and asks me, can I have this book done? I'm like, yes, of course you can. He did something that scared every single person in that room and we didn't push him to do it. And how do we make that happen?
He came to that theatre with me 30, 40 times. First time, you stand outside the theatre. You just listen to Dad's voice. Then you step, you stand, you open the door, you stand in there and you can kind of see dad from afar too much. Okay, that's all right. You got overwhelmed. Step back out. And just step by step by step by step, my son was able to gradually walk on stage and do the thing he did. And I just went, wow, this is so cool.
Because me teaching this, I've understood now, wow, I can break it down to micro steps for you. And selfishly, that's... That's such a big part of my ambition right now is how can I get so good at teaching this that I can help my son overcome one of his most challenging difficulties that we experience in this life. Incredibly beautiful. Your father as well.
was and is an incredible person. You were telling me a little bit about him before, but I also did some research on the life he lived and what he went through and his brothers and his family. And it was... Incredible. And he is now a monk. And my mum. Tell me about that conversation. Yeah, mum and dad, before I moved to the US, they...
Yeah, we sat around a kitchen table like this and they said, hey, we've got a big bombshell to drop on you and we want to become monks. We've been playing the money game, we've been playing the status game and we're suffering. We're suffering and we've been following Buddhism for years and we find so much peace in this pathway. He said we're suffering? Yeah. How? We would buy a new car because one of my uncles bought a new car.
we'd buy a new house and a two-storey house because one of my uncles bought a two-storey house. And I watched my dad play this and I saw it. And it got to the point where we got a jet ski and we didn't have a boat licence. So what are we doing with the jet ski? And it became this weird moment where I was like, oh, Dad, like, can we take it out? Oh, no, we can't because none of us have a boat licence.
So dad had his own suffering in his life. He went from nothing in Australia to building incredible businesses with his brothers. They started one of South Australia's first... grocery stores and then they went to buy pharmacies and restaurants and takeaway stores. Commercial property, residential property. So they built all this up. And they'd fled from... They fled from war. So they started from nothing in Australia. And I watched them do that.
The most memorable thing that led me to this path of entrepreneurship that I am in now is I saw them. We would have three bedrooms in the house. One was for sleeping. The other two were sewing rooms.
And then after you finish sowing all day, you go outside and you peel onions and you get paid 50 cents per bag of, 20 kilo bag of onion that you peel. You get 50 cents for the whole bag peeled. And then after that, every part of our garden was dug up to grow vegetables that we'll sell for 10 cents a bunch at the local grocery store.
And then after that as well, they would also cook these delicious things in Vietnamese called mantec and then we would cook them and sell them for 50 cents each inside the house, right? And that's what we all do. So I watched them do that to then buying a farm.
to then realising that, oh, the farmers sell to an agent, the agent sells it to grocery stores. Oh, we should save up money. Saved up for years, bought a grocery store. So then we became the farm, we became the grocery store. And I just watched them do all of these different things. And there were years where Dad was really happy. But then there were years that started to come where I saw him really empty. And you're just going through the motions of doing things because I'm...
My uncle did it, so I guess I'll do it too. And that's what he meant by suffering, is that they were playing that money game and they were playing that status game. And they felt there was an exhaustion to it. When we had that conversation, there was such exhaustion there.
And I remember feeling it, which what made me think, because it got out of my head, I was thinking, oh, you just want to get a divorce. But when I felt the exhaustion of it, I went, oh, are you exhausted of each other? I went, oh, wow, there's a game you're playing and you're so exhausted. And you found freedom.
Because you're so excited for this other thing. And this other thing was becoming a monk. Becoming a monk. Renouncing. They renounced everything. Renounced everything. Yeah. And then I became the person that then had to give some of the things that they needed.
I think one of the greatest gifts that my parents have given me is not giving me an inheritance. It's one of the greatest things. At the time, I wanted to negotiate that so bad. I was like, 20%, can we just split it a little bit? But one of the greatest things I did, because that didn't kill my drive.
Was it a lot of stuff they had? Yeah, they had money. Millions. Yeah. And then I almost had it. Then there's a part where, and again, to be completely truthful with the journey, then I was like, oh, but then now... now I need to help you. And I had to because they had a vision and I wanted to help them. So I bought them a block of land to help them build a meditation centre. And my dad was like, no, no, no, I just want to, like, just land. And then he had a shed there.
And then he said, just whoever comes to help us put the shed together, that will be the meditation center. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. And then he had all these people in the Vietnamese community come along. Which he paid around the back.
No, I didn't. I didn't pay them. I didn't pay them. I didn't pay them. I had to pay some diggers to come in to actually, you know, move the land in certain places, but I was happy to do that. And then I saw them build this beautiful little spot where it was filled with gardens, with vegetables and self-sufficient now.
And people in the Vietnamese culture come to them because a lot of them are suffering from PTSD, but they don't acknowledge it. Where is this place? In South Australia. We've got a little block of land and, yeah, it's called Nang Mai. And then they just have people...
go there Vietnamese because my dad doesn't speak English that well so he's got a bunch of people from the Vietnamese culture coming to who are suffering from the war and some of them have had children pass away and all these and then I see my dad bring someone who's... The craziest situation was when I saw him have someone lose a child, one of the greatest pains I think a human could ever know, and then walk in, in tears, Dad...
speak to them, hold their hand, went for a walk, and then just took their hands. They started gardening. And I watched this ridiculous thing happen in front of me, where then he took them gardening, they planted a few things, they picked some fruit, they went to the kitchen, they cooked. And he just said to them at the end of the day, you did something amazing today.
You planted some fruit for those who you may not be around for, but when this tree grows, you planted some beautiful fruit for someone to eat. You've done something really good today. And I watched him almost heal someone without saying much at all.
And I said, Dad, how did you do that? He goes, because I just took them out of their head just for a moment into their hands to give them a moment of quiet. People know how to get out of their own troubles. Sometimes they just need a place to need some shade.
Is he happy? I've never seen him happier. And I was the biggest sceptic because I thought, surely there's going to be a crack. And I was playing that sceptic. I feel kind of bad playing that sceptic because for a period of my life I was like... Is this real? Like, is it real? Or is this a phase? And as far as I can see, it's real. Good on him. And he's so free, though.
is because he wakes up every morning. There's, he has this incredible, he has no attachments. He's detached from everything. What has he told you about the endless pursuit of more? Has he given you any cautionary sort of warnings about... Yeah. Yeah, it's what brought me back home from the US. It's what brought me back. You told me a quote which I loved before we started recording. What was that quote? While I was in the US, he...
He doesn't say much, my dad. Growing up, he supported through action a lot. And I remember when my mum called me and said, hey, your dad wants to talk to you. And this is when I was in the US and I was, oh, man. I was so knee deep in the keynote speaking career. I was on the road 200 days a year and I was doing 80 speeches. It was such an addictive career because so financially rewarding, so fulfilling as well. And I loved performing and it was so amazing.
I couldn't get out of that world, but I was so lonely here in the US. I was so miserable. But again, again, because you get paid more, you go, oh, one more year, one more year. Oh, honey, it's okay. We'll just do one more year. And my dad called and he just said... a sentence that brought me home. And the sentence was, and I'll preface this because he knows I love medieval movies. I love this kind of movies. And he said, a king that knows the limits to his desires will rule a lifetime.
And I'd lost track of my desires at that point. What does he mean by that? You'll notice kings that want to continually conquer. I want to conquer more. I want to conquer more land. And gradually what happens to them is they die. they get killed. Whereas the kings that know the limits to their desires, they rule an entire lifetime. And that's what I really connected with, and that's what brought me back.
I walked away from a speaking career to go back to South Australia, Adelaide. I remember my agents in Australia said, can't you at least come back to Melbourne and Sydney? You're going to Adelaide? And to me, because I wanted to... The pendulum had swung so far one way that I reacted in that way and swung so back far the other way. And I learnt a lot going back because a lot of the beliefs that I had weren't real.
I believed that I had to be here in Southern California to have this business that I wanted to build. To become the person you thought you were. I had that belief, and that belief wasn't real. Is there a voice inside you that goes, God, you could do it bigger. 100%. It's there. Go to New York. 100% it's there. But my dad's voice is there, though. My dad's voice is also there, which I'm grateful for. Because I made the mistake with my son already, Stephen. I was a waste so much.
I was away so much. I don't want to make the same mistake with him ongoing. I wanted to recalibrate. Because here's what would normally happen to me. I would always achieve the goals of a previous version of me and then go, oh, I'm unhappy. Or it's because you achieved the goals of a previous version of you. I wasn't aligning the things that I was doing with the present version of me.
because I never took the time to sit still. That's why the recalibrate trips that I go on with my best mate Ali are so vital to me, because I'm learning how to take action that's more aligned with the present version of me. I've got a previous version of you here. What was that kid like at that age? Starving for attention. Starving for attention. And...
Desperate. Felt really lonely. Because I moved schools so many times. Most people go to university with a group of strong friends. I went to five schools. What did he need to hear? If you could teleport back and you could have a whisper in his ear and just give him a couple of sentences at that moment in time, what would you say to him? I'd tell him not to be so attached to who you currently are.
Stop being so attached to this identity that you've created. Not only are other people going to try to keep you inside this, you're the one that's keeping you inside this. You keep blaming other people saying that, oh, everyone's... Stopping me from becoming the person that I am. No, no, no. Listen, Vin, it's you. You're the one stopping you from becoming the future version of you.
And the simple word would just be... Just let go. Let go of that present version of you. I hung on to it. Why do we hang on to... It. As much as my reality sucked in that moment, I felt safe. Familiar. Familiar. And it felt like home. Because what is home? Home is just a familiar.
And the coolest thing about traveling, Stephen, is that as I traveled more, before home, I would tell you, oh, home to me is Salisbury Downs. And then as I started to travel around my own city, oh, no, home is Adelaide. Then I started to go camping. Oh, home is South Australia.
As I travelled, oh, home is Australia. Then I started to live in America. Oh, home is America. And then home gradually becomes the world. There's this beautiful concept where, again, I just kind of, home to me is just a familiar. And at that point... My home was Salisbury Downs. My home was this such limited version of Vin. And I was too afraid to venture out of Salisbury.
Vin, what's the most important thing that we haven't spoken about that we should have spoken about today as it relates to the work that you do? And if you had to guess what the person at home... That question that they have that I didn't ask, that they're screaming at the screen, what it might be that we didn't cover, what do you think it would be? One big thing is, so I've taught you all these different things you can do with your voice.
All these different things you can play with your body language. And the big thing they're screaming at home is they're screaming out, yeah, but if I did that tonight with my partner, they're going to freak out. They're going to go, what the hell is that? What are you doing, right? So all of a sudden now there needs to be a process for that. So Vin, what is the process for that? Thank you for asking. And the process for that is you have to understand, first of all...
I love this concept of neutral ears. And a neutral ear is someone who has no preconceived idea of how you sound or how you communicate. And there are neutral ears everywhere. Before I met you, well, you've watched my content. But if I go out today and I go to get some gas...
or I go to the grocery store, there are neutral ears there. They don't have any preconceived ideas of how I sound, how I talk with my hands, whether or not I'm aware of the power sphere or not. You could go out in those instances and try out these new behaviours.
Ah, run it on some neutral ears. I like that. Run it on some neutral ears. And then you can play. So if normally you speak very quietly, tonight when you go to the gas station, go in there with vibrant volume and go, hey, quick question before I go in. Do you have any chocolates with the peanuts? Yeah, yeah, you do it. I'm going to come in. I'm coming in for them. Play, just do it, right? And just do it. Sometimes one look can put you back in your mould.
Whereas when you do it with neutral ears and when you try new behaviours with no negative judgement, you know what it does? It helps those behaviours stick a little bit more. Yeah. Because it helps you feel normal doing it. And then you have a chance now to play and be vulnerable. Look for neutral ears. I'd set people KPIs every single day and...
Every single day, set yourself a KPI. Maybe go to a gas station a little further from your house and play with your voice, play with your body language, be a bigger version of you. And as you do this more and more and more, you iron out the kinks. You'll do it. You'll feel wrong. That's okay. I'm going to try it again. Oh, that felt right. And then you start to finesse. Because the first time someone plays the saxophone, it sounds terrible.
But as they play it more and more and more and more, oh, they get better and better and better and better. So neutrality is very important, okay? So that's a process. Then if you want your partner to be supportive, then you have to prime the conversation when you go home. So don't immediately come home as this other version of you. Come home and prime it by saying...
Look, honey, I've been very quiet with my voice my entire life. And I just feel inspired to give you and the kids more of me. So if you see me play with my volume, if you see me play with my melody, could you please encourage me? and support me on this journey because I want to be better. Do it with me? Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. Yes, and maybe we can do it together. All of a sudden now, this shifts the way they see the change. You can do this with your colleagues as well.
I love that. It truly is. Then we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you... What is one thing that you know to be true? I'm doing pauses. Do you see that? Even though you can't prove it. That in the world we live right now. you can negotiate whatever reality you desire. Right now, in my own mind, I just have that belief and that belief has served me.
my entire life. And I have this voice in my head where it says, oh, when you die and there's a greater being, they're going to go, oh, you're wrong. You're wrong in telling people that you can negotiate whatever reality you desire. It's not true. And let's say that happens and I meet the creator and he says that to me. I'd still be glad I lived my life in that way. I'd still be glad I lived my life in that exact way. I mean gosh, yeah.
A much more productive, optimistic, effective way to live. Even if you're wrong. Even if I'm wrong. Yeah. Because I believe there are useful beliefs and then there are useless beliefs. I used to carry so many useless beliefs. Stephen. So many. And now I just choose to believe in beliefs that support me in being able to create the reality that I desire. It's that even if I'm wrong, I still am glad I lived my life in this way. Because...
There's a part of my brain right now that genuinely believes this, that there'll be a day when I will be bored with this chapter of life and no longer want to teach communication skills. I just hope that I have the courage. But I know that I'll be able to live a chapter where I become a chef. I love cooking. And I know it to be true that if I wanted that and I'm ready for that chapter, I can write a chapter where I become a great chef. Finn, thank you.
Thank you for coming all the way from Australia and thank you so much for the work that you do. You're so remarkably good at making the complex simple.
And I think, I really, really deeply believe, and this is why I wanted to speak to you, I really, really believe that there's so many people, this is an interesting language I'm about to use, that are basically... being unfairly treated by the world because for whatever reason, they didn't come across the skills, the skills that you've spent many, many, many years giving.
And I just really hope that there's someone listening now who has had that, and I know there will be because there's so many people in your audience and I've seen the feedback that you get, who's had the trajectory of their life altered. in relationships, professions, the job, the promotion, family, communication, whatever it might be, because of you. And I know.
because I've seen the comments, I know that there are many, many, many, many, many, many thousands and thousands and thousands of people who have said exactly that. So on behalf of all of them, but also on behalf of the people that have even one tool out of what you said today. one place to start on that journey towards a different tomorrow trajectory life. Thank you.
Thank you for the work that you do. I know it must get fucking boring after a while, doing the same thing, saying the same stuff, being asked the same questions, getting the same DMs. But it is so important. It really is. You know, because as you experienced as a young man, the way that you can feel, the isolation, the loneliness, the disconnect, the...
The feelings that you're different and that you're missing something can really drive you down a very miserable, despairing path in life. And someone like you helps people turn the lights on and shows them a better way. So thank you on behalf of all those people. Thank you, Stephen. And there's a word that I call my students. Maybe we can end on this. And the word I call them is luminaries.
Because I call all of my programs stage, right, stage. And they go, why do you call it stage? And I go, oh, it's stage because of Shakespeare's quote, all of life is a stage. All the world's a stage. And to me, it's true because when I wake up in the morning...
The first stage I step on is the stage of fatherhood. And how I show up on that stage matters. And then the second stage I step onto is the stage of being a husband. My wife loves it when I make her the coffee. Even though it's terrible, she likes it when I make it, right?
And then there's something there. But then the next stage I walk into is I walk into the studio and I'm stepping onto the stage as a teacher. I'm teaching people now. And in this life, you will step onto many different stages playing many different roles. And if you learn how to communicate and play your instrument, you can show up as your best. And then I call them luminary. Why? Double meaning word. Part of it means actor or actress, but it's not about that. It's about your source of light.
So when you learn how to use your instrument and you show up on stage with the role that you're playing, play songs of love, kindness and compassion. Play songs that spread goodness. If you feel good while you're listening to this, it's because of the way potentially I've played my instrument. And I hope that you'll step onto your stage and the role that you're currently playing and play with your instrument as a luminary to spread more love, kindness and compassion.
Amen. Thank you. Thank you. The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid. But what if you had the right question to start them with? Every single guest on The Diary of a CEO has left behind a question in this. diary and it's a question designed to challenge to connect and to go deeper with the next guest and these are all the questions that i have here in my hand on one side you've got the question that was asked
the name of the person who wrote it. And on the other side, if you scan that, you can watch the person who came after who answered it. 51 questions split across three different levels, the warm-up level, the open-up level, and the deep level. So you decide... how deep the conversation goes. And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work, in bedrooms, alone at night and on first dates and everywhere in between.
I'll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below and you can get yours at thediary.com