Simon Cowell Opens Up About His Heartbreaking Loss, "losing them was the hardest thing that happened to me"!

It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life. Thinking, what have I got to live for? And, um... Oh gosh... I think I've been... Please welcome Simon Cowell! The scale of his success is staggering! He's changed the landscape of television and music. Absolutely dreadful. There's a kid. You're quite naive, right? Seriously naive. I'm trying to take on the world with her music publishing company which fells in the car park. And then you go from there to...

I'm going to start my own record label at 24. I met Sinita in this club and I thought I'm going to make a record with her. I don't know how her records made. I can't read music, but let's just do it. The first time it flopped, second time it flopped. Even when I had the hit, I owed the bank £500,000 and I'm broke. But I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe. Do you remember this single? The album hits number one. Yeah, but this was a real bittersweet tie.

Because I get a phone call, which starts with... And I was on a downward spiral from that period. It became a ridiculous workaholic. Working till 7 o'clock in the morning, suffering from depression. And the truth is, I still suffer from depression at times. What about one direction? The one thing I regret about one direction is... So, boys, if you're listening...

Simon, in order to understand the man that sits with me today, what is the early context that I must know about that will help me to... Understand the Simon Cow that all of us know. So, what is that early context that the other than that you were... You were... Cooked in. Well, I had a happy childhood. I was always bored, though. Really bored at school. I always wanted to have a life where I would be interested and have fun.

When I was told the school days are the best days of your life. I'm thinking, oh my god, this is terrible because I hate school. So, I was really determined to do something where I would be actually just having fun. That's what I kept thinking to myself.

And I want to start making my own money. And one thing my parents did do when we were very, very young, because in those days, you could actually, even at the age of about seven or eight, in our neighborhood, go round to people's houses, knock on their door and say, can I wash your car? Can I know the lawn? Because my mum and dad said, if we pay for the holiday, you've got to earn your spending money. So, I'm like, fine.

So, but I used to love it. If you got ten quid for washing a car, I mean it was like Bingo, it was the best feeling. You mentioned your mother, though. Can you tell me about the influence that your mother and your father, Julie and Eric? How do I need it? When I lost them, particularly when I lost my mum, because then it was kind of final. It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life. It was as bad as things could possibly be.

And we just had the most amazing relationship. My mum was the disciplinarian. I remember I must have been about four years old, maybe even younger. And I remember where I was sitting in the car. And she said something to me and she said, manas make of the man. And my mum was like, what does that mean? She goes, manas make of the man. And then she explained what that meant.

And it's always stuck in my head, because it's such an old fashioned way of saying, be polite. Both my parents were very kind of old school. They were very respectful to everyone. I always remember that. And I looked up to both of them. And I always knew at any time I could go to them when I needed advice. And they would always give me the right steer. And they were always there for me. Your work ethic is renowned.

I've spoken to a lot of people in your team currently. And one of the things they always described is through much of what got you to where you are today is an insane work ethic. And when I say insane, I mean insane with every sense of the word. Where does that come from? Because you said your childhood was happy. And typically when someone has a pretty insane work ethic, there's some kind of trauma at somewhere. But for you, I couldn't quite identify what that was.

It probably comes from my dad worked for a large corporation. And before he retired, he said to me, don't work for a large company. Because when you're 65 or whatever, they're going to retire you. And you'll never hear from them again. And that is exactly what happened to my dad. And it was heartbreaking. Because he did work hard. He was a very loyal person to the company. He worked for when he passed away, he didn't have any money.

And he was probably what made me realize, a, I don't want to be in that position. And secondly, the only way I can achieve that is by working for myself. And I always had this crazy vision of if I work for a company and I don't get on well with the boss, he's going to probably invite me to his house and talk about golf. I just always had this in my head thinking I couldn't think of anything worse than having to suck up to a boss who doesn't like me.

And the reason I kept thinking my boss would never like me is because I was so bad at school and my teachers were quite strict with me. So I thought work was probably going to be the same. So that's what drove me. And you know, my dad also, you know, he knew, you know, because I didn't do very well with my exam results. And he did say to me, it's quite clear, Sam, you're not going to make university. Have you made up your mind what you want to do?

And I said, I want to do something I think in entertainment, I'm not sure what. And he said, look, whatever you do, you're going to have to be patient because it's not going to happen overnight. If you want to do well, you've got to learn to be good at it. And it could take 20 years, it could take 30 years, but understand that. And I'm like, I'm fine with that. And I really was fine with that.

Your dad seems like a man that gave a lot of actual advice. A lot of advice that frankly I read your book as well that you can still remember to this day because my parents taught me things, but vicariously by watching them. I can't think of a single sentence that my parents said to me that was advice, but you've got so much advice that you recite from your father, which I think is pretty remarkable.

Well, yeah, he, I mean, one of the things that always stuck in my mind, and it's quite an old thing to say to a 12 year old, he said, everyone in life's assignment has a sign on their head. And it says, make me feel important. And I want you to think about that. I'm thinking, sign on there.

Well, I have no idea what that means. Why do you say that? Maybe he said a couple of drinks. And then I forget when I realized what it meant, but boy, did that stick in my mind, which was if you want to do one in life, it's going to be a team effort and make sure you recognize every single person on that team. So if I walk into a room, I instantly, I think pretty much the point I understood it is that I can walk into a room and I can see, I see everything in one in one moment.

I see the person who's opening the door. I see the person who's doing a particular job. So in other words, I see the room always as a team. And you did that the minute you walked into this room because there was what? And people here from the past night when the door, the person I got the coffee, the people, you know, take care of the cameras and you, and this is rare. And obviously I've done 300 of these conversations.

You went around to every single person in this room and took an interest in every single person, which is, it's not typical, especially when you're dealing with people that are other, of a big sort of public profile. We've had people walking it completely, it can only be 10 minutes sit down and text them. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of that as well. And I see an awful lot of hypocrisy, which are people, yes, who, who, on the outside, you know, they, they show one side of it.

I then always see that person when they're off camera and who they really are. And, and they are the opposite. They will just like you said, completely ignore everybody. The worst thing is that I had this as I, as I was, you know, trying to get my career started. There's nothing worse than when you're talking to somebody.

And as, as they're talking to you, they're, they're looking for someone more important than you. I remember feeding that, you know, at an early age of my career and how that felt. And it was very demeaning. I suppose, you know, those two stories about my mum and dad, they were really, really, really important things. And they must have known that that would mean something for me later on in life.

And I've said the same thing to my son, Eric, you know, I remember the first time I said to Eric, manners make of the man. He was about to. He's like, excuse me. He's like, and he repeated it back completely right. I said, I said, I said again. And then eventually, I think he must have been about four. And he was very polite to someone. And I said, I'm very proud of you, Eric. He went, manners make of the man daddy. And I'm like, you've got it.

I needed a bit of patience. I'm trying to indoctrinate the two. But you turn, you turn to your father and you express that you'll pursue entertainment and music. So what a 12 year, how old were you when you first of that to your father? I probably, I was, yeah, I would have been about 12-ish. There was nothing I excelled in at school at all. You were surrounded by music people and entertainment people where you lived. I think you're down at one point, worked at EMI.

Yeah, he worked for their real estate division. Is that where music? Because I'm trying to figure out where music came from. I've got this kid that's naughty not paying attention in school. I read the stories about you holding up a bus with a spurt gun. Should have said that as you're dreaming. They called the police because you were holding a bus with a spurt gun. And I'm thinking, where does music come into it? Cause it doesn't appear that you were playing a huge amount of musical.

Well, I loved buying records. So just going into a record shop and saving up enough money for you to buy a single or an album was just everything. So most of my spending money would go on records. I can vividly remember going into my bedroom with a brand new album and just loving listening to every single track on it. It was such an exciting feeling. So when you leave school and you go off and try and find your own career, you worked a few jobs.

You were a training at Tesco, I think at one point. Well, my dad, he said, okay, you failed all your exams twice. So you've got to have to get a job assignment. And since you're not qualified, what about Tesco's? I don't know where that came from. I'm like, doing what? And he said, well, you know, you could end up maybe managing a store or something. And I'm like, okay. So I did a bit this interview. And I remember I wore jeans. And before I even sat down, the guy said, how dare you?

How dare you come in here wearing jeans? I'm sorry. He said, well, how dare you? And I was so annoyed. I said, you know what? I'm really glad I came here because I never want to work for you or your company. And by the way, your office looks like I'm warmed out. So I didn't go down well. My mom made an application for me to work for the civil service. So I was interviewed to be, I think like a law clerk or something.

And they actually had a chart which told you exactly how much money you would make at the age of 64. And I'm like, that's not going to happen. Then my dad thought I should be in the building trade. And I was going to have to work at this sort of building site. Whatever it was for two years to learn everything. And I thought, no. And then eventually I got a job as a runner at Elsery Studios. And the second I got that job, it was like brilliant. I was so happy. And it was hard work.

Why? Why was that job? You described it as a sliding doors moment in your life. Why was that job? Why was that your heart? I'd kind of worked out how to become a director. You have to become a third assistant and second assistant, first assistant, two years in editing, sweets, blah, blah, blah. And I was up for that. I thought this is something I think I would love. Unfortunately, the contract I had only lasted for two months.

And the executive producer was so mean that he said after two months, well, that's it. We don't need you anymore. But the PA's light me so much. They paid for my salary. Really? But he was so awful this guy. Every time he would come into the building, I used to have to hide under their desks. And he caught me one day. And he said, what are you still doing here? And I said, well, nothing. He said, well, who's paying you it? And I said, nobody. And he said, we're not allowed to be here.

And he threw me out. And then I nearly got a job on... Actually, I was offered the job as a runner on the shining. It was just making that. I saw the hotel being built on the lot when I was a runner. My mom, at the same time, had made an application for me to work in the post room at EMI Music Publishing. You're whole to this point. I was at that. It's six and seven to seventeen. So I had this choice of I could become a runner at a big film studio on what looked like a great movie.

Or I could go in the post room at EMI Music Publishing. And something made me go. And I tell you what it was. I passed the studio where I was going to work as a runner one particular day. And there was a queueer people just outside the building. And I went up to someone and I said, you know, what's everyone queuing for? And they went, what do you mean? They said, well, no one here is on contract. And when a new production happens, it's pretty much first come first served.

And I'm thinking, God, this doesn't sound very reliable. I don't like the idea of that. So I think I'll take my chances and I'll work in the Music Publishing post room. You say the post room? Yeah. Do you mean where the post? Yeah, literally. So it was, it wasn't a very nice building. And it was almost like being in a garage where we were. It was definitely a basement. There were two guys who used to work. I think one of them was called a harry or something.

They were probably in their mid to late 60s. And I turn up all cocky, you know, right. I've got a job at the post room and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And they were like, just makes a cup of tea, son, and blah, blah, blah. But it was good because I did get a chance to understand what everybody did in the company. And I think I was making 18 pounds a week at that point.

And as the months were on because I thought someone's going to realize that I'm really talented and offered me a great job. And I literally would walk into everyone's offices pretty much every day and say, can I have a job? I've had a job, a better job. There's nothing going. I literally, even the managing director, I just walked in one day and I said, I'm timing. Can I have a job because I'm really passionate and he just drew me out of this office.

So you're asking questions about the industry to those people in those offices? Always, yeah. Every time, every time there were a few people who were really, really kind to me. And they explained what they did. They explained to me how music publishing worked, what they do for the writers, the catalogs, everything. So I started to get an understanding of how the music business worked. I also glimpsed some of the checks that were coming in, being in the mail room. And my jaw dropped.

Seeing how much Kate Bush, for instance, was like, how do you help? If you do one of this business, there's a lot of money. I had no idea. If something about that in terms of career advice, because I really heard that you were, even though you're in the post room, you're peppering people with lots of questions. Now, there's a lot of people working in a lot of jobs right now who might not have understood the importance of being curious.

Even if you're at the very start of your career or the bottom of the proverbial ladder. But that seemed to be really pivotal, because there's a lot of people that would work in a post room and know nothing else but the post room. Yeah. But you were annoying people. I was actually maybe in a kind of a charmingly annoying way. I was always, you know, very polite. I was very on time. I would always say, here's your male surman. Is there anything else I can do for you?

And while I'm here, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I was sort of like the company pet. However, it did start to go on me after a while about how little money I was making and my brother making a lot of money now being in the state agent. And I wasn't offered a job out of the mail room. I thought it was going to happen after about a year, after 18 months, nothing. And so I said, right, nothing's happening here. I'm going to become a state agent.

And my dad, because he did have connections with property, he got me to work for a company called Helia Parker May and Rowden. And even by the name, you can just tell the kind of people who, I mean, they were just awful, awful people. Really snobby. Really mean, really rude. And after a month, my mom said to me, you're really unhappy, aren't you? And I was like, yes, I'm really unhappy. I hate this. And then my dad knew the guy who ran in my music publishing.

And this is where I was in the post room. And I don't really think he connected me with my dad because my dad actually said to him, I can't believe after 80 months he didn't give Simon at least a little promotion. He went, I didn't realize that was your son or so he claims. I'll never know. Anyway, the next thing is an opening suddenly arrives. And my mom, I remember her face. She said, I've got some really exciting news for you. And I said, what?

She said, I think there's a better job for you at EMI Music Publishing and you've got to have an interview. And it was working in the international department of EMI Music Publishing, which basically means that writers that were signed, say, an America, Germany, whatever, this department administered their copyrights. And the job that became available was a songplugger, which meant all the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of songs they published.

My job was to get other people to cover those songs so they could generate more money. And to do that, it was quite a difficult job because it was the country music division. Now at that point, country was not very popular in the UK. And a lot of these songs were unknown. And what made it really difficult was is that this job was actually promised to somebody else in the company. And obviously it got out that I got the job because my dad helped me get the job.

To get into the fact that it would be worth there for 18 months, it just looked like I was given even though it paid, I think 30 quid a week or something. It wasn't like a high paid job. And no one would talk to me for the first six months. So I'm like, it's terrible. So I locked myself into this room. And I just thought, no one's talking to me. I'm just going to listen to every one of these terrible country songs.

And I listened to literally thousands and thousands of songs over six months, compiled a list, and then just went out to all the record labels, met up with all as many A&R people as I could. And said, I think I've got a great song here. And it will be perfect for one of your artists. And I did get a lot of the songs covered. Are you 18, 17, 18 years old? I was about, probably about 18, 19 at that point. And then my boss said, I think you're really bright, Simon.

Why don't we start a company together? And I was like, it's a bit early, isn't it? I'm like 19. And he said, I've been here for 16 years. You're never going to make much money. Let's just do it. I've actually found, he found someone to back us. So I met these people. They earned a recording studio. I had a really, really bad feeling. And I said, I just, I don't think I can do this. It's too early. I don't even know what I'm doing at the moment, let alone run my own company.

And he said, well, I think you better go and meet these people and tell them that the answer's no. And he did it, you know, he was going to happen because I went and they persuaded me. And I went, I know, I knew I'd made a mistake. So we started this company. We had about 40,000 pounds, received money. Our offices were in an NC peak. I think he actually used to be a Lou. Our office, it was just so bad. And I'm like, oh, God, what have I done?

I just got this job with Ian. And now I'm working in a Lou and a car park. And this is not going to work. And after about 18 months, I just left. You're in company. It was in us. Yeah. And it's an signing. Yeah. But then I met somebody who was a manager, who managed hot gossip. And he had a really cool office in the South Maltan street. And I just really liked him. He was really funny. And I said, can I work for you? And he went doing what? I said, I want to start a record label.

And he went seriously. And I said, well, you got this great management company. I think I know how to make records. Let's just do it. And he went, I'll pay you 40 pounds a week. And we agreed on 55. And I'm like, brilliant. I don't know. I just suddenly feel really, this isn't working to I've really got a feeling this is going to work. You were quite naive, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, seriously, naive.

Yeah. Because it's like a kid is like trying to take on the world with like his own music publishing company, which fells in the car park Lou. And then he goes from there to I'm going to start my own record label at what 2026, 25 years old. So you start this record label was is that fanfare records? Yeah. So I met Sunita in this club, the Embassy Club, which is a brilliant nightclub. I liked her. She liked me. And I said, I run my own record label.

Nice. And I thought it's a great pick up like this. And she said, I'm an artist. I went really. I said, um, have you made any demos? And she said, yeah. So I said, well, come, come meet me again. And we did meet again. And she did pay me some demos. And I said, she got really, really good recording voice. And at the time, there was this particular kind of sound dance music, which is really becoming popular in it.

It was all originating from, I think, the French part of Canada, where a lot of these records were originally made. They were all breaking out gay clubs across the UK. And I just had this idea for Sunita, which was so beautiful, so much fun. And I thought, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to make a record with that. And I'm going to break it through, through the clubs across the UK.

And I just had this crazy idea in my head for a title. And I said to this guy, I met, he hadn't had a hit before. This is Sunita. I want to record. This is how I think I'm going to break it. I want it to be called so mature. And he looked at me like, right? So we made two records. One was called so mature. The other one was called Gold. Gold is the other side. It's cruising. This is the record. I said, oh my god, that's great sleep. It's fantastic.

That's right. So mature and cruising. The problem was, is the guy I was working with, says to me, I'm expanding into book publishing. I'm like, okay, fine. So he didn't really take you notice is why I was doing. And then he said to me, I've been a public company, you know, basically wants to buy my business, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, great. I'm shutting down the record label.

Am I? Are you kidding? I've just, I've just made this record. I think it's going to be here. And he went, no, I'm shutting it down. And I said, what does that mean for me? He said, well, you're out of the job. And I said, look, you, I know you've made a lot of money. You're probably going to make a ton more. Do me a favor. Would he just give me five thousand pounds? I don't want to salary. But with that money, I will make the video.

I'll get it distributed blah, blah, blah, recorded video, everything. And he went and we think about it. And I kept calling him over the weekend. And eventually, okay, fine, five thousand. And that's it. So I thought, okay, that I think should be enough. And that was, you know, I suppose one of the biggest turning points in my life, if he had said no, at that point, I'm not sure what I would have done.

What would you have done? I would have hustled it from somewhere because I really did believe in this. The minute I heard the record from I just thought this is going to be a hit. How do you know? Just felt it. You know, I had a good, the funny thing is when I first, when I actually made my first record, the producer said, you will come down to the studio.

And I said, no, and he said, why? I said, because I don't want to know how a record is made. He said, why? He said, because I want to listen to it as anybody who buys records. If I know how a record is made, it's going to sound different to me. So to this day, I don't know how a record is actually made. I don't know how it started to someone play a baseline or keyboard. I mean, I literally haven't got a clue because I know it would be an all.

It's like when people do magic on my shows. I'm not the person who goes, I know how you did that. I go, I believe in magic. And I will literally make myself believe in magic. And with music, it was sort of the same thing, which is, I don't want to know too much. I just, I don't want to pretend that I can read music because I can't. I don't want to make myself believe that I can be a producer because I probably couldn't be a very good producer.

But I think I could be a very good A&R person, which is find an artist, find them the right song, and then, you know, break the record. And it took me about a year and a half to break that record. It was tough.

I just want to pause on that. What you said there about not knowing anything about musical, how a record is made. What I heard there, I guess in between the lines is you want to remain the listener and not the creator because you think it's more valuable to maintain the perspective of the consumer completely.

100% that I mean, you've hit the nether, the head is exactly that. And also I didn't want to ever, you know, because I've met some successful producers, you know, over the years, you know, and I, I had this vision of, because I heard stories of A&R people who went into studios pretending they understood how to make a record and hadn't got a clue.

That one guy actually had literally a piece of metal, like a train track or something, literally a piece of iron. And he had it on his studio wall. And he called it the whackometer because all these idiot A&R guys used to come in. Yeah, don't really like the mix of the record and he go, yeah, no exactly what you mean. Let me just adjust this. So he would just pull the lever down and the guys would go.

Night and day. And I couldn't think of anything more embarrassing. So I've always been the first to say, I don't know how records made. I can't read music. I haven't really got a clue, but I think I would have thought I do have a good ear for a hit or a potential hit.

There's something really transferable to marketing. I've obviously spent the last 10 years working in marketing. And one of the most passionate things I've said on stage of gazillion times to my teams is trying to get us out of the perspective of the creator and into the perspective of the person that's going to see it out in the world. And I have to say it is like an impossible task. It sounds so simple. And what you're describing is what I've thought so hard to try and convey to people.

Well, I think you can do that if you believe it yourself. And I did have this strong belief in myself that finally I'd found something I could do, which was make a record. You know, make a terrible video. And I mean, obviously we used to have to physically manufacture the records. So I didn't have a lot of credit. So I had to do a lot of deals, you know, with these people look, I'll pay you.

If you'll make me 10,000 was the minimum or something, I mean, the whole thing. Well, I had to go through to get this record into the charts. And it was all about getting it into the top 40. And it took me three times, first time it flop, second time it flopped. And then what I did was I said to the warehouse, I said, what is the problem?

They said, well, the record selling, but it's not a keep selling Simon, but it's not enough to get into to get into the 40. So I said, well, why don't we hold the order? And they said, well, we're not really supposed to do that. In other words, just say it's out of stock on the computer, but it's not out stock. Just don't let them have the record when they order it. In other words, let's build up the back orders.

So we built up whatever the back order was and then all the people who'd ordered a record three months ago, four months ago, suddenly all these records arrived that week. And it worked. It got the record into the top 40. It squeezed in. And I got a breaker on top of the pops and the record just exploded after that. Oh, and here's the crazy thing is that the guy who gave me the money to run the record label goes off and merges with this company, a public company, and it goes bust.

Oh, the public company went bust. It goes bust. And that's part of reason why I went broke because all the time there was me on my own little with one person running the record label. And we made a lot of money on that one single. But actually the mother company was broke. So at the time I had the here everything suddenly crumbled at that point simultaneously. So I have my first here. And I'm broke.

I actually it's funny you say that because what we're talking about, I listened to this last night and I saved it to my favorites. It's just a clip of Rick Rubin, you know, Rick Rubin, right? Yeah, talking about music. Do you play instruments? Barely. Do you know how to work a soundboard? No. No technical ability. And I know nothing about music. Well, I know what I like and what I don't like. And I'm decisive about what I like and what I don't like. So what are you being paid for?

The confidence that I have in my taste and my ability to express what I feel has proven helpful for artists. Sounds almost like what you just said to me. Well, yeah, I mean, not many people say this. You know, most people will say, yeah, I know a lot about making records and this and that. That's a very different skill set. You know, my skill set, I suppose is similar is, you know, fortunately, you know, getting it right as to what I believe people will like in whatever I do.

That's really what it comes down to. Well, you said it. And then when I had Rick say that, I thought, my God, you can build an unbelievable career based on not being technical. It's something but taste and conviction. Absolutely right. And also understand because the one word you're going to hear all the time when you're, you know, starting off is no.

It's just that word you hear over and over and over again because people are nervous. And if you really, really, really trust something because, you know, I'm looking at that sleeve now. I cannot tell you how many times the word no was described in the breaking of that record. And I had to trust my own gut. That's all I had.

I could have gone, you know what? It's over the guy shutting the thing down, but I really had this conviction that other people would like it. And, you know, I would take the white label into clubs. And I would, you know, get the DJ to play the record. I would be the reaction sometimes not so good. Other times amazing. And that was enough to give me that conviction, which is, yeah, this is what I call a crossover record. It can become a big pop record.

Because of circumstances, heavily outside of your control, fanfare records collapses. Yeah. And you're left with about five pounds in your pocket and you move back in with your parents at 30 years old by age. Well, it wasn't the label that owed the money. It was me. Because all of us were encouraged to buy shares in this company because we were told the company was doing really, really well.

So the bank manager was practically forcing me to borrow money, you know, because he said the shares are going to go up in value. And at the same time, I thought everything was just going to be wonderful. So I bought a house. I bought a Porsche, of course. I had a gold credit card, which no one explained to me how that works in terms of the interest rates. So I'm living it up. And when it all came crashing down, yeah, I owed the bank nearly 500,000 pounds.

So I had to go in and see the bank and they had the nice guy and they had the not the nice guy and the not so nice guy was, OK, where's the money? Right. Well, you lent it to me. You know, it's just gone. And the other guy was like, yeah, well, you know, it was partly our form blah, blah, blah, blah. So I said, look, all I can tell you is, if you bankrupt me, I don't care. Because I don't have anything. I don't have a job. I don't have any income. I've just got this debt.

Which would have a Porsche. It'll win the whole lot. Even when I sold the house, I still owed money on the mortgage. So I was on paper bankrupt, yes. So I moved back in with my mum and dad. And that was really told me what great people they were because there wasn't one moment where either of them said, you know, you failed or this or that it was like, it's a life lesson.

And then you'll get over it. And I managed to find a bank amazingly to lend me because I basically I negotiated the debt down. We worked out what the interest was over the period of time, what the capital some was. And then I got them to half that. And somehow I'll pay it back to you. So I found another bank who just backed me. I just sold myself. And I said, look, you know, I, my first record I ever made went to number two, whatever it was in the chart, sold a million copies.

This is what my career is going to be. What happened was without my control. And he said, I don't know, I've got a feeling about you. I'm prepared to lend you some money to pay back the other bank, which meant I didn't become bankrupt. So I went back to live with my mum dad. And it was actually quite an interesting time because I remember and I've told the story a lot is that I had to get from a particular destination in the West end to where my parents lived.

And I had about five pounds cash. And I remember thinking, it's literally all the money I've got left in the world. And I'm not sure if five quids could have covered the tax rate home. And I think I know we just about made it. And I said, I'm sorry about the tip because I haven't gotten any more money. It was about 10 peal something. Fortunately, had a very, very good lawyer, a guy called Tony Russell. And I said to Tony, look, I mean, not in a great place.

I'd met him actually because he represented George Michael. And he sued me when I'd made a mega mix of which we used to do. We used to literally get in session singers. And say Kylie Manoe, just record eight Kylie Manoe record with someone who sounded like Kylie Manoe mixed them. So we used to call them mega mixes. And they would they'd sell about 10, 20,000 copies. We used to export them all over the world.

And we got sued by George Michael. That's how I met my lawyer because he was representing George. And I said, I'm really represent me next time. And he was brilliant because he said, look, I think Simon weirdly. And what's happened to you is the best thing that's ever happened. And I said, why? I said, I'm broke. I don't have a job. He said, he said, but you succeeded so far. Simon with everything you put out because I haven't had, you know, success with some other records along the way.

I think you should get a label deal, which means that you own part of the company with a major label. So I'm like, OK, if you can get me, if you can get me on brilliant. And we went to meet two companies and on the same day, BMG and universal and literally that day, at the end of the day, Tony calls me. He said, I've had two calls. I'm going to go on.

Universal has said, no, I'm like, shit, BMG has said, yes, I'm like, seriously, there's a caveat. Got one year. And within that one year, you've got to sell X amount of records. And I'm like, I'll do it. And I did. And that was kind of how I got myself back up and running again. By the way, the other thing I should mention is I said Tony, by the way, I don't have any money to pay you.

The lawyer. I said, so, you know, I'm not sure I can afford you. And he said, well, I believe in you, Simon. I think one day you will end up repaying me. And I'll always remember that. And years later, of course, you know, we did a lot of deals together. And of course, I repaid him. But I mean, the fact that he was there for me at that moment. I mean, that was again, a life changing moment for me.

There's these people throughout your story that seemed to be so critical. Mentors, people that were there to catch you when you fell and treated you in a pleasant way. One of those as well was Peter Waterman. You described meeting the day I met Peter Waterman was easily the most important day of my career. You said that in your book. I don't mean to be rude, but. Well, it was because I, I realized very, very quickly that it was unlikely I was going to be able to sign or find singer songwriters.

So I was going to have to find artists who needed songs written for them. So I needed to find the best pop writers in a literary in the world. I heard this record on the radio. And I just thought, wow, whoever this is, this record is brilliantly made. And I found out it was produced by Stockake and Waterman. No one had heard of them at this point. So I call up here and I said, hi, my name is Simon Cowell.

Boba, Boba, Boba. Can I meet you? And he went, yeah. So I went down to his studios and we met. We were sitting on these literary wooden boxes. The studio was like a real mess. And I said, I've got this record. I'm about to put out. And he put on so much. I took it off. I said, hit. I went, yeah, I know. Will you produce a follow up when he went, no, I said, what do you mean, no? I thought I thought I was doing him a favor. And he went, I'm too busy. And I said, doing what?

And literally the place was falling apart. And he gave me this awful wink. He went, you'll see. And then the next three to six months, the whole Stockake and Waterman explosion just happened. Because obviously Pete had been making other records in the meantime, which no one had heard. And out nowhere, all of his records were just hits. So I thought, okay, I've got to persuade him to write

Sunita's follow up. So I just used to turn up at his studio literally every single day. And make tea, sit in the studios, blah, blah, blah. And they were so busy. They didn't really notice me. And after about a year and a half, Pete was in a studio and he turns around. Why are you always here? And I said, well, I'm trying to work out how you do it. And he went, I'm not paying you. I said, I don't want to get paid.

And I just, I want you to one day write her follow up. And a few months after that, I was in my office, I get a phone call. I've got you hitmate. And I got the cab went down to his studio and he played me the demo of toy boy. And I thought, that's going to be a gigantic record for her internationally as well. I could feel it.

And Pete, you know, made it everything because Pete again, I mean, Pete will pretend unlike me. He'll say, oh, of course, I know I had a producer, I was blah, blah, blah. He may do. But Pete's skill is, I've always described Pete as the best DJ in the world. He would, he could go to any city in England at one in the morning and he would note instinctively what records to play to the audience that were in that venue. And he made everything simple, which is you find a great artist.

And you, you matched them with the great pop record. And that was it. When you got that job at BMG, one of the things that I read was that you were really focused on television, which was unusual television as an outlet for the music and as a distribution platform to make the music successful, which is unusual at that time to think about television.

And why were you pushing that upon your bosses at BMG? I took the view. It didn't matter to me. What the record was as long as it sold a lot of records. So it just occurred to me one day. I forget what it was. It might have been. I think it was the wrestling Federation or something. Someone told me they'd sold out Wembley Stadium, you know, the American wrestlers in the BWF.

Yeah. Yeah. In 80,000 seats in like 27 minutes and I'm like, what? And so I learnt a bit more about them. You know, they're selling everything. And I'm thinking actually their fans are so crazy about them. They're all by an album. So I met with them and I said, have you ever considered doing this? And they went, no. And I said, well, I'll pay you X as an advance. I phoned up Pete Waterman. I said, how did you fancy making an album full of wrestlers? I'll do it instantly. He just got it.

And we got all, we flew all these wrestlers over from America. They all turned up as their characters. It was hysterical. The Undertaker, Hulk Hogan, you name it. They were all there. And my boss at the time was so desperate for me not to do this. He locked down on the knees seriously and was praying. Said, Simon, I am begging you not to do this because it's going to be such a catastrophic failure. And I'm like, what I'm doing it. I just don't see, don't understand why you don't get it.

Have you felt like that a lot in your career where you feel like you can see something others can't because you're thinking more from first principles there. You're thinking they sold out an arena. They haven't avid fan base. We can attach music to an avid fan base equals hit. Yeah. You've summed it up very eloquently. And that is exactly it. However, and you know this. What is very straightforward to us is not straightforward to other people. They're thinking he's gone completely mad.

I mean, no, but I'm thinking, yeah, but you're not a seven year old boy. You know, this is who's going to buy the record. You know, this is somebody who's going to buy a board game or blah, blah, you know, cereal with the rest of the song, whatever. You know, I did it with the power rangers. Zigg and Zang. I didn't care as long as it sold records. We thought this one. That's it. Oh my God. We had so much fun doing this. Really, really, really did.

And you know what was interesting is actually when I made the video, I kind of turned myself into a kid again because you sort of have to believe it for it to work. You know, because I treated it as if this was a serious record. The record had to be a great record. So let's go back to what you said earlier on about being able to embody the listener consumer. Yeah. Because your boss at the record label, they were saying, no, this is not how it's done. This is not what we do here.

Whereas you're thinking again from the mind of a seven year old or eight year old. And that's hard. Yeah. Well, I didn't think I thought logically it made a lot of sense. I sit in these A&R to part meetings with really, really serious A&R people who would literally go bright red with anger when I would play them something like this. You're making a mockery of this label and the music business is like, well, cares is number one in the charts in 28 countries.

I just didn't understand why people would take it so seriously. And this saw millions and millions of copies. Yeah. You saw millions of copies for a wrestling album using a passionate fan base as the. And you know what? It was fun. It actually was a fun project. And when I worked at BMG, I got to know a lot of the people who worked in the Teddy Sells department. And these were the girls who would literally get orders from the record shops.

And I got to know all of them. And they were really, really fun people. And but they were they were like the back. Yeah. Background, you know, but they were eyes to call them the punters. You know, they completely got it. And I always used to say, if you hear anything, just let me know. You know, is there a demand for something? I always just I just want to know what's going on every day.

And one particular day, I said, anything happened this morning and they went, yeah, we're getting a lot of calls about something that was sung on the soldier soldier last night. So anyway, a cut along story short. I tracked down Rops of Endure and I said, hi, I'm Simon Cal, blah, blah, blah. I kind of got your own to say yes, Rops and just wasn't having it. So I was like a stalker. I would not let me go. I got hold of his parents. Everyone is friends.

And I mean, to the point, I think I got a legal letter saying, could you stop harassing my clients? And it's like, well, when he says yes, I'll stop harassing him. And eventually he agreed to a meeting. And I'm so excited. I'm in the cab going to the meeting. And then I suddenly went, Christ, I don't know what he looks like because I've never washed the show. So we were meeting in this blind bar or something. So I just walk in and I'm like, hi, I'm Simon.

I've never had this hand shot up. Rops and I said, hi, I mean, we sit down. I said, here's the deal. I'll pay you both 50,000 pounds each to go into the recording studio, lay down your vocals. And if you say no, you keep 50 grand each. And he looks at me and he went, you serious? I mean, yeah. So literally the following day, they said, right, we'll do it. Thinking we're about to make 50 round each for a day's work. I'm never going to put the record out.

So I get them in as quickly as possible. And I get a phone call from Robson. I want to see you. So I walk in, did lay down the vocals and I said, what's the problem? And he goes, you are a complete seaworth. And I went, why? He said, because you knew exactly what was going to happen, didn't you? And I don't know what you're talking about. Is it, yes, you do. He said, put it on. And they played me the record. And they both realized that that moment,

the record was going to be a hit record. And I kind of forced them into doing it. And they were happy and angry at the same time. For two years, they were the biggest selling artists in the UK. I mean, they outsold Oasis every bomb. Really? Yeah, it was absolutely, I cannot tell you. We had some, we couldn't make enough records. We sold so many records. And this was this particular track was number one for I think seven or eight weeks or something. Yeah, something like that.

I think all the records went to number one. It was actually quite incredible. And that was probably the thing that really cemented this thing about my career, which was absolutely trust you got, go completely in an unconventional way. And that more than anything else made me realize the power to be.

Because also when I eventually did see the episode and I saw how it was cut and the storyline and just how everything worked and why there was such a demand for that record, it was, wow, that's a great lesson. But Simon, what about if your gut is wrong? Because you've worked with people that trust their gut and they're continually wrong, that they just don't have it. They just don't have it, right?

Yeah, whether they're musicians or they're A&Rs, you know, there'll be a lot of people listening now that are like a case Simon said, trust my taste, trust my gut, just go for it. And then in reality, it's a question of like self awareness, I guess, which is difficult. Well, I can relate to what is happening to a lot of people in the music business right now, which is the frustration they must feel, which is, I'm talented. I've uploaded my music and I'm not getting anywhere. What do I do next?

And I know what that feeling is. And what I decided to do was why don't I go with a slightly different direction from everybody else? I don't want to be part of the herd. If I follow everyone else, I'm just going to be a sheep and I don't want to be a sheep. I'd rather be somebody slightly unusual, but successful rather than safe, cool, whatever. So I always say particularly today, you've got to make noise amongst the noise. And that means, you know, do your research.

You know, if you're going to cover a song, don't copy the original. You know, find a song that could have been written 12 months ago, but actually was written 30 years ago. And rearrange the song, do something different with it. There's so many things you can do, which are different to what other people are doing. Because that really is about getting your first step on the ladder, which is prove that you can make some noise amongst everybody else.

And I do know what that feeling of frustration felt like. However, it's also about trusting your gut as well. When you make noise amongst the noise, there's a cost. And you talked a little bit about the cost of that. It's the skepticism, it's the negativity, it's the criticism, it's the get back in line. And a lot of people, especially if they weren't rebellious kids, they had a problem with authority and such, can't deal with string from the conventional path.

Where other people have walked the blueprint, how things have always been done. You have to go through the thorns, through the bushes. It takes a certain type of rebel, one of which is in front of me, that is willing to go through the thorns in life. And don't be afraid of what other people say about you for doing that. Because when people say it's not cool or whatever, who defines what is cool or what isn't cool. You know, this is just about you, your career, your passion.

And if other people mock you for being different, then I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe. That would just bore me. I've been called so many terrible things from serious people in the music business. But it just doesn't really matter, you know, the most ever bother you. Is it a muscle you've had to train? You know, the only thing that bothered me was like I said, when I first tried to get my record played on Radio One, and I saw the process.

And I thought, this is something I can't change. I cannot change the stuffy old producers mind about liking a record. He knows nothing about. So I have to find a way to force that person to play the record. And the way I can do that is to get it into the charts. So I have to find a way to get it into the charts that forces them to play the record on the top 40 count now. That's always what I had in my head.

In other words, if you really, really believe in it, and the conventional part isn't open to you, then you've got to go right. Then how do we navigate a slightly different path that eventually gets us what we want? Let's not go the obvious route. And, you know, I'm not going to lie every time I do anything new. There's always part of the thrill is it may not work. And, you know, every time I, I, I film a series of BJT, AGT, whatever I'm filming every year.

There is one day where I'm like, it's over. It's over. I hate the acts on board. That's it. And then following day, I'm like, my God, I love this show so much. I mean, I end so up and down like that because I can't fake how I feel. You know, when I'm bored, when I'm miserable, it really shows. And when I'm happy, then you know I'm happy. You guys may have heard almost recent news, The Launch of Flight Studio, which is our brand new podcast and media technology company.

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Oh, yeah, West Life. So you would sort of think 39 years old, and your band West Life, their album hits number one. Yeah. And you know what? This is... My dad passed away right at this time as well, so this was a real bit of sweet time for me, because my dad... He never knew this, but my dad was amazing at spotting hit records. You know, I would play him certain things I was making. Oh, bless you. You're a fruit of him here.

Yeah. Yeah. He... When I first started to have some success, and my records went to number one, he was so proud. And he, again, when I signed this band, he said, I think they were going to be huge for you, Simon. Really? Yeah. But this was a really crazy story about where, how we signed the band, because Louis Walsh was always calling me. I've got this band in the world. I've got this band in the world. And that's... Okay, Louis. I'll come to Dublin. I went to Dublin. He showcases this band.

I absolutely cannot bear them. And I said, this is never going to work. They just don't look right, Louis. I don't think... I just... The answer's no. I think a couple of them are okay. But you're wrong. I said, okay, fine, I'm wrong. But I'm not signing them. And then three months later, he calls me and he goes, I've taken your advice. Would you fly back? I'm like, okay. So I fly back. They start the showcase for me. Within 30 seconds, I said, I'm in. Done. You'll hear from my lawyer.

You won't hear anymore? Nope. I can see it. They sound great. They look great. Blah, blah, blah. We signed them. And then a month later, it turns out that he has died one of the guys hair blonde to sneak back into the band. And that's Shane. Because when we audition them the second time, they all have blonde hair. But it's a typical Louis story. They still succeeded, though. They did fantastic. Well, yeah. And in fact, I think we still have the record of.

For I think it was their first seven singles went to number one. And I don't think that's ever happened again. You described that moment as as bittersweet. In your book, I read that you. And you had a whole time to tell your sort of family that. Yeah. This album had gone to number one. Yeah. And the news that you got back was that your father passed away from a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah. I went to Germany to this big conference. And, you know, I did quite a big presentation on the group.

And the reaction in the room is huge. And so, and I also was hearing the room. And I also was hearing the record was really selling. And I called. And I could just tell something wasn't right. And I think someone said to my mum, don't tell Simon what he's there. And then I found back. And she told me. And I'm like, I can't believe it. Because I genuinely, at that point in my life, I just believed my parents are going to live forever. And I was always in love with that. And yeah, it was.

It was tough. However, I do believe in God. And I do believe. Because the hardest thing when you do your parents is. You can't even think about them afterwards because it's too difficult. And you know, everything is. And then after a while, it's like when I have a question in my mind, I do talk to them in my mind. What would you do? And I know what they would say. So, I really do still believe there would be. But that was very bittersweet moment.

And probably, you know, at that, you know, I would have swapped everything I'd succeeded, you know, to kept him around, you know. And all the things that, you know, he taught me over the years, it all just, you know, it was the longest trip home for America. You know, that fly was, it was bad. It's a credit to them, right? Yeah. And, you know, like I said, look, thank God, you know, he was very wise. And he did give me a good steer. And like I said, a lot of things that still do now.

I still think of, or my dad say, you know, because he only lost his temper with me once. And boy, when he lost it, he was like, I don't want to go there again. But, you know, he never hit me. Nothing like that, you know, but he raised his voice once at me. And that was enough, you know, but he was very, when he was angry, you knew it. But I also, you know, I think he would have got a real kick out of seeing me on a TV show. I know he would have just found the whole thing really, really funny.

He didn't see you on a TV show? No, no, no. That came a few years later. But, you know, at least he'd seen me, you know, succeed, you know. And that meant as much to him. I know it's his did to me. Just the purpose and the meaning of all the work you're doing change when you lose someone who was so central to why you are where you are.

And thinking about your, your, this sort of immediate, people often describe they understand the nature of what their priorities should have been in their life when they experienced the loss of a parent, because you're right, we grew up. And even now it's almost like I think my parents are going to live forever. Yeah. Hasn't crossed my mind. I'm living my life as if they're going to live forever.

Yeah. Well, like I said, having gone through, you know, which was no question in my losing, you know, both my parents was the hardest thing that ever happened to me. But I can sit here and honestly look you in the eye now and say, because everyone says, you know, when you lose them, you know, in time it'll get better. And you think, no, it won't. And the truth is it does as long as you believe. And you have to believe that their presence is still there with you.

And I do genuinely believe that with my mum and dad. And, oh gosh. I have to give you a minute. Okay. My mum, you know, she started to get dementia, but, you know, fortunately, you know, saw Eric. She really wanted me to have a kid. And she brought him this brown blanket. And he still has it literally everything is about the brown blanket. You know, where's my brown blanket?

And he said to me, when he was about two or three after, you know, she passed away, he says, he's just looked up at the sky one night. And he said, I'm thinking about Grandpa, Eric and Julie. And it was just the way he said it. It was like, gosh, why would you say that now? And that's when I genuinely really started to believe they are still somehow with us. You know, it's not a total loss.

And I think, you know, maintaining that amazing relationship with both of them, you know, up until the point, both of them passed away. They were my best friends, you know. I could tell them anything. We could talk about anything. And, you know, it's, it's how I feel for Eric. You know, it's just that pure love, you know, they just want the best for you. And in return, you feel the same about them. And that's how I feel about Eric. You know, it's everything starts to become full circle.

Thank God, you know. You described the loss of your father in your book where you said, everything into perspective, all the things I thought were important, chart positions, doing showcases with the band and everything else. None of it meant anything, any more. Yeah, it's true. Really? Yeah. Genuinely. I can say that because, of course, I really, really enjoyed every successful moment of my career.

Even when things haven't gone quite to plan, there's still a story, you know, or something to be learned from it. That combined joy versus the devastation you feel when you lose someone. It's, there is, you know, it's, it's, it really is meaningless. Your life really seemed to change drastically when Eric was born. Yes. I think that's even like a bit of an understatement because, yeah, when I speak to your team about Simon free Eric, they describe a man that is a workaholic to say the least.

I was reading about you staying up to 80, I'm in the morning frequently to work in. Yeah. Just this absolute obsession with detail and working Sunday, Saturday, calling people all hours. Three Eric Simon. Give me a true reflection of that man. If I was a fly on the wall in his life, what was, what was I seeing every day?

Well, I think particularly when I lost my mom, I just was on a downward spiral at that point, you know, it was like I lost everyone, you know, I've lost my, my, my parent this finality now. And what I said about the material things I've got, everything just meant nothing at that point. I was desperately unhappy. I wasn't particularly enjoying my work and I just thought, you know what, I'm just going to become a vampire then.

And I would work through till seven o'clock, eight o'clock in the morning. I would wake up at two or three in the afternoon. And I actually got addicted to that kind of lifestyle, which was I just love the intensity of, it was almost like because of the loss I'd had, I've got to find something else to fill it. And it was, I'm just going to become a ridiculous workaholic. And I was very successful, but I wasn't happy. Really, really wasn't happy.

And it was like the expression is this is good as it gets. That's how I felt. There were certain people in my life at that point, giving me advice who just shouldn't have been in my life. And then when I got the call from Lauren, which starts, any to call which starts with, are you sitting down? You know what's coming next. It was like, are you sitting down? Yes. Well, and she told me. And yes, it did absolutely change, change everything in my life. I mean, it made me happy again.

For me, it was perfect because, you know, like we were talking earlier on about our childhood, you know, it was just brilliant. It's like fantastic. I remember the first time I watched Jungle Book with him. And I'm looking over and seeing the joy he had watching that movie. It was like, oh my god, I remember how I fell when I saw the Jungle Book. He saved you in many respects, didn't he? Without question. Without question. Yeah. I really, really, I've reached the point where nothing matters.

Even to the point where I almost can't even remember everything from that period. It hit me so hard. I was like, because the hardest thing also was being on television as well. Because I'm like, God, I feel like a clown here, you know, because I'm dying inside. And yet, you know, I've still got to, you know, do what I'm being paid to do. You know, as best as I could. But, you know, I put on a ton of weight. I was eating just junk.

It was like, if I had got hit by a bus the following day, well, I'd be dead. But I wasn't worried about anything like that, you know. Was there a darkest day in that period that you were calling? Yeah. The whole time was dark. I can absolutely relate to when people reached the lowest levels, you know, you possibly can. Where essentially, you know, being alive doesn't matter anymore, you know, because you just go, what have I got to live for? Did you have those thoughts?

Yeah. Yeah. Not thinking I want to take my own life, but thinking if I, if, if, if something terrible happened, it wouldn't bother me, you know, to myself. What I have learned, fortunately, is, unfortunately, we are all going to go through this. And it's how we cope with it. And being able to talk about it, you know, I mean, I've spoken, you know, publicly about mental health, particularly men's mental health, because there's no question. I've had, I do still suffer from depression at times.

I've really suffered from depression in the past. I am actually very thin skinned at times. Particularly when someone is disloyal, you know, that I take things like that very, very badly. I noticed this because I read, it's interesting.

I read, I was reading loads of articles and loads of things, trying to send off, and I was also doing all this research and the word loyalty came up over and over again as something you would say, sometimes in interviews as being really critically important to you. Yeah. I was thinking, why is, of all the people I've interviewed, why is loyalty the word that he uses when he describes artists he's worked with in bands and right Louis Walsh?

Yeah. I've watched an interview where Louis Walsh said, the thing Simon loves about me is I'm loyal. Yeah. Because of, you know, a lot of what we spoke about today, you know, my upbringing, my working life, you know, nothing was ever handed to me on a plate.

You know, so, but when people took the time, you know, like people to men, you know, there have been, fortunately, a lot of people over the years who've been amazing have come in and helped me achieve because I could never have done what I did without, you know, the people who worked with me over the years. I've just been very lucky in the main 99% of the people have been just fantastic.

However, I, I, yeah, I take it really badly when someone who you considered to be a friend rewrites the narrative afterwards and they become because things happen worked out for themselves. They have to blame somebody else. Right. And it's like, but we're all in that position. Yeah. So, there's certain things I can't talk to, I would talk to privately about why that particular time, some other people I was working with, look again, on the bright side.

As long as you're happy today, which I am, thank God. And I'm at peace today, thank God. And then a lot of the bad things that happened previously, it's like, well, that, that's your destiny, you know, if, if the lights had been red and said a green on a certain day, Eric may not have been conceived. And that's how I look at life, you know.

Your new work life balance, I find it quite interesting, you put some, a lot of sort of parameters and boundaries in place in this new, with this new post Eric Simon cow, some of which are, you know, you don't work Fridays. I read that. Not really, not really. Okay. You don't engage in emails after sort of 5, 30, 6 p.m. really. Never. Interesting. Never. I have social media. Okay. So how do you stay awake when you blog on your phone? Well, you know, I don't have a phone.

You don't have a phone at all. Well, I have a car phone, which I occasionally use, which is actually an American phone. And I swear, I don't even know how to use it. So you don't have a mobile phone? I have one that sits in the car nine times out of 10. I'll use somebody else's phone because I don't even know how to work anymore. I hate them so much because I do why I think they're boring. It's almost like for me, it's like having a toaster with you all the time. It's like, it's a toaster.

And a phone is just as boring, you know, it's like toast is nice and occasionally a telephone calls nice, but not all the bloody time. When did you make that decision to get rid of your phone? When I realized by not being on it for about three or four months a year, I was happier at that time. And then when it was like, oh God, it's time to turn my phone back on. I start to dread it. And then one day I thought I'd lost it. And it's, oh God, I've lost my life.

And it's, I'm stopping so dramatic. It's a stupid telephone. I don't use 99% of the things on it. And I actually really like talking with people like we're talking now. I like meeting people. And I like talking from a landline if I have to because the sounds nicer as well. I think people would be pretty shocked to hear that Simon Calvert doesn't have a phone because you've got this business empire you have to run. You've got all these people, these artists, these TV, you know, all these things.

How do you now, like, I'd have some, like, I'd have like an existential crisis if someone told me that I had to get rid of my phone because I think well, my business is going to crumble or obviously it depends what you do. So what I do, weirdly, it kind of helps because you hear about the important things in life. You don't hear about the unimportant things. And that's the best way I suppose describing the advantages. So when something really serious happens within seconds, you'll hear about it.

When it's just some piece of gossip or something which I'm really not interested in and someone said, did you hear about so and so? It's like, no, and I'm not interested because I'm not. So someone has to get hold of you. How do they contact you? I always say, honestly, if you want to get hold of me and you know me, you'll get hold of me. You just will. I promise. You really will. You will get hold of me. Obviously, you know, I have a PA. I have a partner. I have friends.

How does she get hold of you? She calls me at home and I mean drives crazy. What would you say to the work hell ex out there, including me, that I haven't quite yet had life teach us the hard way? Oh my god, I don't know where to start. What would you say to Simon at 31 years old, which is how old I am? 21. Well, I would say work hell genuinely. From the good things that have happened, how much time are you spending time where your gut is telling you this isn't worth the effort.

But your ego is sort of saying, but it's your idea so it must work. There are always going to be moments where you have made the wrong decision. And sometimes it's bailing out earlier than you should. Rather than just, let's just hang on to that. Or also understanding that certainly when you're doing something creative, I believe that you can only really be creative when you're not tired. I'm certainly at my best when I slept well. I'm feeling fit. I'm feeling happy.

Then I'm in a completely different mindset. Because I still see each episode before it goes out about three or four times. So they'll forget these episodes are about the length of a movie. So I'm watching the equivalent of two movies a week. Every second, every sound cue, every audience shot. I mean, it's the focus you've got to give it. It's unbelievable. So I think I would have said, you know what? So I'm wanting to enjoy what you're doing a little bit more.

Is the fifth day going to really make a difference if you're working better on the four days? Or is it the truth? By the way, it's much more fun having a three day weekend than the two day weekend. And it's just stuff like that, I suppose. Did you used to think that if other people weren't working at the same tenacity as you, they weren't as interested or they, you know, because I'm thinking about how you now interact with the people you work with.

If back then you're working at eight in the morning. You're dragging a lot of people with you. Yes, I was. I lost a planet so far. Yeah, I did drag a few people along with me. And I apologize. Having said that, one thing you can't escape is that to be good at anything, you've got to put the hours in. It is hard work. I mean, look, yes, people with the lottery. You hear about these crazy success stories, but they are one in a literally a billion.

I mean, for me, the majority of people I've met who haven't inherited anything, but have just built something on their own. They've done it because they're talented. They've got great instincts. And importantly, they have really, really put the hours in. Because if somebody, you know, comes to work for me, it's a 21 years old and says, you know, 530 right, I'm off. And don't bother calling me on the weekend. I'm going to go, well, I'm not going to bet the house on you.

You know, when I was younger, genuinely, I didn't even think about weekends. It was like when I was a runner, you know, I would do 18 hour days and loved every second of it. Because for every day I was doing it, I was learning something more. And then I think, you know, there is a point where when hopefully you've realized that you've kind of got your groove, you know what you're doing, you're being successful, you've got a good team around you.

Then I think it's a question of, okay, well, then don't kill yourself in the process. I mean, seriously, find, and this is, you know, going back to phones, you know, which is, and I'm the same with emails, is if, even if it's great news, and you get the news at 7, 8 o'clock at night, you can't just go right, I'm going to sleep now, because your brain's going to go into overdrive. And I think, you know, getting good sleep is crucial, absolutely crucial.

You hear about these people who survive from fora of sleep and I'm like, how? You know, I need like 10 hours if possible. I really believe that sleep is the best medicine your body can have, and the ability to be able to sleep peacefully, you know, that's really, really important. Imagine if all time and had, you say that, he'd be like, yeah, right.

You said don't kill yourself in the process, but, 2020, you had a very, very serious accident, which was, unfortunately, at the time of the pandemic. So we're all trapped inside anyway. You were on a electric motorbike where you had an accident and broke your back in three places. You had a very intense six hour surgery, which included having a metal rod put into your back to stabilize it. And according to all the accounts that I've heard, you were very lucky to be alive. Yeah, yeah.

Actually, yeah. It was pretty bad. I think that's an understition, what I've heard. Again, there is a silver lining because I wasn't fit. I thought I was fit. I looked okay, but I wasn't fit. I was really getting up, even though I changed my hours, I was still getting up, going straight to the telephone and I would sit by that telephone for hours and hours and hours. And I really wasn't getting the steps in. I wasn't eating properly and all this kind of stuff.

So once I, you know, I, it was a bad accident. And I knew it was bad the second it happened. And the recovery was pretty difficult. However, I had a fantastic nurse and she literally, she was lighting up, you know, how a cocoon just pushes the bird out. She just one day said to me, just get out into your garden. And you walk 20 spaces, just do it. And they did it. And it was hard. And then I just built it up, built it up, built it up. And then I started to build up my step count over time.

And then when I really had to put the proper steps in today, my feet were just like, like, ragged because they weren't used to walking. So it was weird. If I had to go back in time again to get to where I am today, I would have gone through that again. As bad as it was, the upside was worth it. Because if I hadn't broken my back, I don't think I would have ever realised how unfit I really, really was.

You spoke about, because the pandemic is an interesting time to have a, like, debilitating injury like that, because your trapped inside as it is, when you have a back injury or any severe injury like that, you're immobilized.

Yeah. And all of this has a really significant impact on your mental health, because I've sat here with people who have had a back injury, like Craig David, I remember him telling me, the darkest depression he had in his life was when he injured his back and couldn't move much anymore. Yeah. And how that has a knock on effect of all things. But then you have the pandemic as well, which is keeping you indoors.

And I heard you were inside for a long period of time because of that injury, because of the pandemic. You stayed in your house there for a long time. Was it almost a year or something? Yeah, yeah. What was, if I was a fly on the wall in that house during that time, what would I have seen?

Well, again, the hardest thing was, because the guy had to, he got so bad, I had to sign a form, you know, just before I had the operation, which was, you know, if this doesn't work out, would you allow us to switch to the machine? I'm like, well, that's encouraging. Just before I'm about to go under, so I'm thinking, oh, this could be it. But I was in so much pain. I was just thinking, just please, please, just get me out of this pain.

And it, the first three days afterwards, I was like, actually, it's painful, but not as bad as I thought. And the doctor said, yeah, you've got pain receptors in your spine right now. They're going to wear off in a couple of days, get ready. And when they wore off, it was like, whoa, it was unbelievable. And then I'm on all these pain-killing drugs, blah, blah, blah. And you know what I'm doing? I'm following my lawyer, saying, where's my will?

And then I'm also trying to sell a show at the same time. Unfortunately, my PA knew I was just all over the place. And she was saying, yeah, the person you're trying to get hold of isn't available right now. But, you know, obviously, I was just so delirious. I was just all over the place for the first three days, because after traumatic injury like that, you are. But I had a fantastic surgeon. I really got off the painkillers much earlier than they thought I would like a month earlier.

And that was for me really significant. And then when I started to put the steps in, and getting up to 20, 30,000 steps a day, without my feet falling apart, it was, and I actually, it was worth it, genuinely worth it. Is this when you first went to therapy around this time?

It was, yeah, and I think it was probably because after that injury, and all the time I had to think about things, I really had a chance to kind of really think things through and go, it would be actually crazy for me not to go to therapy after everything I've gone through. And talk to somebody who is an expert, who you can trust, who can advise you. And it's a bit like really going to the gym, you know, it's like, wow, you feel great afterwards.

And it's, you know, you think initially, you're always going to be embarrassing. How do I start the conversation? But there's a, there's so goodness, so well trained at what they do. It gave me, I don't know, it just made me feel better in so many ways, because stuff that used to bother me, I would talk to them about, and you almost kind of get the answer. You know it's going to be, but someone needs to tell you other than yourself, if that makes sense.

You know the answer, but you kind of need someone to validate it. Did you go to the, I've been to therapy, I've also been to therapy with my partner, do couples therapy. Yeah, I've done that, which is really useful. Yeah, my God, ours would make the best reality show with all the planet. It's a good idea. Seriously. What was the, when you went to the therapist, was it because of how you were feeling following the back injury and the pandemic?

Or was it just more broadly that you hadn't processed a lot of things throughout the last couple of decades? So there was a specific issue you went with. That's a good question. I think I met a few people who had, who were in the entertainment business, and we spoke a lot about, how do you deal with this, how do you deal with that? And they all, well, two people in particular said, we went into therapy, and they said, have you tried it?

And I went, no, they said, try it once, see how, how you feel. And when I went, it was very interesting because what you realize is that most of us have actually bottled stuff out, you know, somewhere in our bodies, and it's like a release. And we all need that release because there's something in your brain, which you haven't spoken about, or something that's bothered you, and you don't know who to talk about, or whatever, whatever, whatever.

And actually, it's not a weakness. If anything, it's a strength to be able to admit that we are all vulnerable, that we're none of us are perfect, that we do need help, and there are people much smarter than us, who can just help you, and why not take advantage of that? Because I promise you, I don't believe there's a single person in the world who could go to a great therapist and then walk out and go, yeah, I didn't need that. But we all need to donate.

In the same way, we're discovering things about nutrition and food and the importance of that, and a lot of what we were talking about, social media and some of the negativity, all these things, you know, we're not programmed. I don't believe to deal with so much so quickly. We've got to find different ways of not just sorting your bodies out, but sorting your mental. It's not even mental health. It's just life.

It's that, just having someone who's trained to give you better priorities, other things to think about, things you don't have forgotten about. Those kinds of things I learned through doing it. How's it had a big impact on you? Massive. Yeah, massive. And in fact, I got out the habit only because of my schedule, and due back, I think it was about two or three weeks time, and I literally can't wait.

Because I really do think I found someone special. Is named Justin. If he's listening Justin, you are the best. I adore you. And he's, I consider him, you know, a friend. I really, really like him and respect him. Sometimes we don't get to say to people how much we appreciate them and or the impact we've had on them until they're gone.

Because especially as men, sometimes we can be a little, well, I'm just bigger for myself here. I can feel a little bit, I think how I was raised a little bit, about expressing my emotions sometimes. Yeah. So Justin, for example, what would you say to Justin as in terms of how he's helped you if he was listening?

I think he, he, if we had a list of what's the most important things, the top ten list of priorities, he's changed the order of what would have been my one to 10. He's shuffled the order. So something that might have been number eight might have become number three now. And he's simplified my way of thinking, which is some, he said to me, Simon, I think you actually overthink a lot of things, by the way. And I'm right. Actually, you've got a point I do actually.

And a lot of what we've been talking about today. A lot of this has come from working with Justin. And like I said, having absolutely no embarrassment whatsoever about the fact that I needed it. I think like I said, a lot of people in my opinion do need help full stop at some point in their lives. And it is nothing to be embarrassed about. It isn't Eric comes to you and says, Dad, you've built an incredible business. I've been incredibly successful. Dad, I need some advice.

I want to be successful in my career too. I'm planning on doing something special, which I don't know what it is yet, Dad, but I want to be successful in when I go into the professional world. What do I, what advice would you give me, Dad, based on the career you've had? What are those foundations, those fundamentals? I'm going to say to him, be good at what you do and therefore be patient and learn. And the learning and the getting that is as enjoyable as being that.

Because in my opinion, it is having gone through both sides. I've been at my happiest when I broke. I've been at my unhappiest at times when I've been wealthy and I've also been happy when I've been successful. The most important thing is on a Sunday night, you want that feeling of excitement that Monday is coming. And it's something to look forward to. And that this is what we're supposed to do in our lives is do something which we enjoy.

And it's not a question of having more than other people or less, it's irrelevant. There's always people who are less than you and more than you. That's not really the measure of your happiness. Your happiness stems from achieving something, believing in something, and just loving what you do. I'm very lucky because I still love what I do. Yes, there are times I'm like, God, this is a long day today.

It hasn't been a great day, but overall, I pinch myself still because I'm fortunate enough that I'm able to do something which I really, really love doing. I love creating things. I love thinking of things. And I also like the idea that somehow I'll make it happen. And even if it takes me 10 years, if I still have that strong belief, somehow I'll try and make it happen. And if it doesn't quite work out, at least I can say what I gave it is short.

And I also say to them, don't blame other people if it doesn't work out. You have to trust your instincts and you have to have a strong work ethic. But enjoy that. And that's why, as I said, finding something which you're passionate about is for me, it's the most important thing more than anything else. Because, like I said, going back to the time when I was in the post room and in the state agent, I loved being in the mail room a thousand times more than being in the state agent.

It just was a great example. When I changed jobs to make more money, it actually made me more unhappy. Because I didn't like the people that hated the job. And I don't say all the state agents are bad, by the way. This particular company at the time, they might be right now, we're awful then. But that's what I think I would say to anyone I like or didn't like, you know, finds your passion and then try and be the best of it. Legacy. That's been front of mind for you recently, hasn't it?

Yeah, it is a lot. And to your point, you know, when you were me doing something like this or something I've made in the past, I'm always aware. I've thought if I'm editing a clip and a great contestant, I'm very aware that that is their legacy as well. And I want to make that clip like perfection in my mind. I want every second of it to be beautiful and cinematic, you know, and because they live online forever, these clips now.

But yeah, legacy is, I think about this a lot, definitely. And I think somewhere I read, it was a great quote about, I'm going to say this really badly, but it's along the lines of, if you live your life with your eyes open wide enough, you will eventually find the person you're looking for. And then you'll be my people, and you know, because don't think.

Certainly when you're younger, that you've got all the smarts to do it yourself, you know, being smart is finding the person who is smarter than you, who is willing to take you under their wing. You've got to show them, I'm prepared to put the work in as well. And if you could paint the picture of your own legacy, the legacy that Eric will remember of Simon Car, what was, what is that legacy that you would like to leave him with?

I guess the world with, oh, well, I think I like people, I mean, I genuinely like people, I remember being about six years old and seeing somebody, I think it was their ideal home exhibition. And, oh my God, it's so, so, I'm a complete star struck and I just went over and said, hi, can I have your autograph? And he went, no. And I was like, I was destroyed. And I have never, ever said no to somebody.

It drives Lauren and even Eric sometimes crazy because I don't care in the middle of dinner or whatever I'm doing. If someone wants to picture an autograph, I'll always say yes. Because I take it as a compliment, you know, because it's the, they watch something I've made. And I also know and reverse what it feels like.

If someone's rude to you, because if you don't like people, you can't do this job. So I hope my legacy will be that, you know, I kind of achieved everything, you know, without a head start. And I've treated people well. That's what I would like to think I'll hand over to Eric, both of those things.

Although you have changed your life in many ways, extreme, extreme ways, very extreme ways from the sort of the pre-eric Simon to the post-eric Simon who has put boundaries and balance in place and is focusing more, you know, you talked about that priority list of 10 things with your therapist. It's quite clear and everything I've read that number one priority right now is the family. Yeah. And everything is secondary to that. That's accurate, right? So I can. Yeah. Yeah. It is.

But I think what concerns me a lot at the moment is, and I hope things are going to change is that I do see bullying on the rise. And I think that is partly due, well, actually a lot to do with social media. I do see, unfortunately, people unhappy because they think they need material things in their life to make them happy. And look, of course, it's better to have money than not, but it's not everything. And, you know, like I said, I can genuinely say that because I've experienced both.

I prefer to when I had money, but it wasn't the end of the world when I didn't, you know, and so I just. I get sad a lot of the times when I think about people who think, well, you know, I'm not great at school. So what am I going to do with my life? Or I need everything by the age of 21 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, actually, you know what? It doesn't have to be that way. You know, if you really, really do have the patience.

And like I said, you might have a friend who's got a more flashy job and blah, blah, blah. But if you're in it for the long haul, you're going to be better off at the end. You know, is trying to get that message to people, you know. I was just thinking then about one direction, in fact, I'm friends with some of the boys. I see some of the boys born of the boys from one direction. They, how do you, how do you like make them ambitious, but at the same time?

Because I sat with Liam and he was on the podcast and he's, he talked about his struggles, struggling with all of these things that the change in his life. We all wish and dream for that. But then the reality is something that no one can be prepared for. The brain is not set up in such a way to deal with that amount of hysteria around you. So has your thoughts around this changed or evolved based on your own experiences, assignment and the things you've been through?

Well, personally, I think it's better to have success than not. What is great, I mean, what I said to the boys and, you know, it was quite obvious, you know, once they were on the show, they were going to be really, really successful with the right records. I mean, they just, for me, they would like the perfect group. I think the most successful artist you've ever developed. Oh, gosh, I actually don't know. Really? No, I mean, I know they were very successful. They sold a lot of records.

They made a lot of money. I said to them, a lot of what we're talking about, which is, don't ever complain about paparazzi because they are going to take your pictures. Don't complain about invasion of privacy because people are going to always want to pitch taken with you. Don't complain about the long hours because there are going to be long hours. So if none of this, if any of this is a problem, just do something else. I mean, because I promise you all of this is going to come with it.

There'll be times where you're going to go, my God, this is a grueling schedule. Oh, my God. I can't someone just leave me alone for one minute because I want to have my dinner. Why are you taking my picture? That is going to come with the territory and the truth is it's worth it. It's a very, very, very, it's not even a price to pay. It just comes with it. It's hard work. You are going to become well known. And you are going to lose a lot of your privacy.

If you want to be in a accountant, you're not going to have any of those issues. It just won't be as much fun. So, you know, some people want to be accountant. Some people want a more exciting life. I've always been a huge fan of bands because it's a much easier way. But first of all, I think it's more fun being in a band than being a solo artist, particularly if you like your bandmates. It's a brilliant way to get noticed if you want to become a successful solo artist, like they've all become.

And being in the band was the catalyst to that. You know, I'm about to do it again this year. You know, I'm so happy about this. You're searching for another boy band. Yeah, and I'm doing it because, you know, right now, there isn't... I don't think a band who has been as good as one direction since one direction, in my opinion.

And if you look at the amount of solo artists versus bands right now in the world in port music, it is unbelievable. I mean, if you think of Motown and that whole era, it was as many bands as there were solo artists. So something has gone amiss. And the only way I know to put a band together is somebody has to audition them. So we just thought, you know what, if I don't do it this year, I'm going to really regret it. So let's just do it.

And we're going to document the whole process. So this time, you're going to see exactly what happens. From the minute we go, we're going to do it to how you logistically do it. How do you choose the people? Blah, blah, blah, because I think it will be interesting. And but there's no safety blanket on this in terms of, I haven't gone to a record label and go and say, right, I'm doing this, will you guarantee me a record deal?

I've got to hope that the band are good enough to get a record deal. What's the secret source? People, I mean, it is personality. I mean, I think that's the one thing about one direction is they all had great personalities. And they were just interesting people. And as the first time I saw them as a band, after we asked them to be in a band, I was in Spain, and I saw them walking up the beach.

And as they're walking up the beach, everyone's looking around. No one ever heard them at this point. And I thought, some believeable, everyone's looking at these five boys, as if they were already stars. And there was something, there was just this glow about them. And because you know, I've had hits with bands, I've had misses with bands.

And it could be that I was 1% off or I was 80% off. I don't know. But when it doesn't work, there's no money in the world that will make something that isn't going to work work. It's just one of those things. You just got to hope you get lucky and find the right people. Have you got better? I don't know. I don't know. It could be that I'm completely useless now. All I know is if I had to trust anyone to do it, I would trust me more than anyone else. I would.

Are you waiting for a feeling? Is it like, or is there like some kind of data in AI and some Excel spreadsheet that ranks them based on, you know, these things? Is it a feeling? Yeah. It has to be. And this is the difficulty is that you are selling an act to somebody who I'm not. You know, your fans are going to be primarily teenagers.

And so you kind of got to guess what that audience are going to like. But don't overthink it because I've seen a lot of people particularly recently put bands together. Walk out and within one second, I'm thinking all of this is wrong. I can tell that someone's told them what to wear. I know what their spills going to be. It's all rehearsed. Nothing spontaneous.

And I'm thinking, why does that person who rivers behind the scenes, why can't they let them just be themselves? That's why I said to one direction, which is, look, I can just give you a broad kind of over, like I said, this is what's going to probably happen when you're successful.

And then after a few years, you're going to want to leave the band. That's going to happen and blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, no, we're going to be friends forever. Yeah, whatever. Do what you like. And that was sort of it. Just say, when you got a problem come to me, it's really down to you to make this work.

You've got to love the records you make. You've got to influence the records you make. You can't dance. So don't try and dance. Don't have a higher stylist because you've already got great taste. And just be yourselves and most and really, really have fun because there, like I said, there will be days where you're going to go, oh, God.

I'm really tired. I don't like this. And you know, no one will leave me alone. And then in 10 years time, you're going to look back on this and go, wow, we had a blast. Could you have predicted? I know all the boys have done really well in their endeavors, but Harry has become. Well, he still is a mega star. And often with boy bands, once they break up, you know, they're kind of some of them fizzle out and whatever. But Harry seems to have just

taken on, you know, he's really managed to find his own groove. Yeah. I always, I'm not a lie. I mean, the first time I met Harry, he sang a Stevie Wonder song, we just talk about pies. So I'm not sitting there thinking you're going to become one of the most successful artists in the world in 12 years time. I mean, no one would have thought that I just thought, you're unbelievably charismatic and you're fun.

And the audience are like, like you and great. And then for whatever reason, it didn't work out in my opinion for the Missolo artists, you know, for different reasons in that part of the show. And then we just had this idea in the moment, put them in a band. And then, like I said, you know, where I think pretty much all of them have done great is that they've used the

the group as a vehicle to go where they really want to go in their lives. And would Harry be Harry without one direction? Well, none of us could answer that. I couldn't tell you. All I know is being in the group definitely made it easier. Of course. And that's why I thought interestingly about seven or eight years ago, I thought there's not going to be any need for these shows anymore because of social media.

And here's the crazy thing is that the amount of UK artists that have broken globally in the last say seven years has fallen off a cliff. Literally, if you think about how many global artists British have broken globally in the last seven years, it's possibly three, which is crazy. I think three. Well. So is AI a concern and opportunity? Does it cross your mind? I think both. I don't think you'll ever beat the real thing.

I said that it'll happen. I mean, soon arrived later, I think they were already a Japanese artist who doesn't exist. And she sells out stadiums. So there's no question it's going to, it's going to happen. But people are always going to be more interested in the real thing. If you go to a concert, you know, you want to see those people you want to say I was within touching distance of that person, not something that doesn't exist.

I would agree to much, a big extent, I actually think that a lot of the people that are actually building AI like Sam Altman the other day, he said he believes that there's going to be a huge surge in people's demand and desire for real in person entertainment experiences, especially in a world

of AI causes a little bit of a displacement in the job market. And we have more free time, which is what he's the guy that's that building a chat, you P.T. He says the the industry boom around entertainment. And I've actually got a billionaire friend that lives about five minutes from here in a penthouse billionaire in biotech AI everything. He's just a super smart guy.

And when I sat with him, he said the same thing to me, he said, you know what's going to boom, he said, people's need for entertainment. Yeah. In a world where a lot of the work can be even, you know, cause of being a driver's the biggest employer in the world.

The autonomous vehicles that are driving around San Francisco as taxis now are a glimpse of that future. So all these people that are going to be displaced in some way will need will have a lot of free time. Yeah. And that will cause us to be, you know, maybe living communes. But yeah.

But also just to really go back to in real life experiences. I did a post year the day about this how you see opposites rise polar opposites rise together like digital music surged vinyl records become a little bit popular in bowling alleys and our, you know, sing a surge and these sort of flight club in these sort of in person experiences. Because we've become so digitized. And I see entertainment as one of those things like the entertainment industry concerts festivals. Yeah.

It's being a nice place to run to. Yeah. Head sets. No, I think you're right. I think it's a, it's a good point you make about the two opposites. Fast fashion slow fashion. We saw that rise as well. Well, he's so fascinating as well is is is seeing these brands, which are 50 60 years old suddenly become super huge again, whether it's Lego, whether it's Mario Brothers, whether it's Barbie.

Because sometimes, you know, there's his feeling of, I might just saying things were better because I'm just getting cranky, which is quite depressing. And then I go actually know queen or David Bowie or Alton John were are the best artists of all time. I mean, George Michael just is. And I don't think there's anybody in the world as good as George Michael today. I genuinely don't I wish there was because by the way, he was one of the nicest people I'd ever met in my life. Yeah.

But no, I think we're just going through a very interesting time right now. And I'm a great believer in bracelet. Anything's going to help you. Don't dismiss it. But I still think, you know, when again, when I when I was talking to one direction, I remember saying to them, our goal is for you to have enough hits that if you ever reform that you can do stadium tours. That means you've got to have about 10 hit singles. Because that's what people want to hear. They want to hear the hits.

And you know, if they ever did reform, that's exactly what would happen. Are they going to come back? I doubt it. You doubt it. I doubt it. Spice Girls came back. Spice Girls came back many years later. The one thing I regret is I should have kept the name. Oh, you should have owned the name. I should have owned the name. You didn't own the name. No, who owns the name? They do.

Oh, okay. That's the problem. Could have made an animation or whatever. But when you give an artist the name, it's not yours. And that's my only regret. So if you're listening, I'll buy it back for me. So it all from the bottom of the moon. It's a partnership. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, sure. There we go. Yeah. But that's the only thing I do regret because if one of the band members for whatever reason say they don't want to, it can stop the others touring.

So if it was me who owned the name, it wouldn't be a problem. You could do a tour three of them. So that's what's stopping a tour because they, what do they all own 25%? I believe so. Yes. I mean, I can be very naive at times. And that was me being very, very naive. So next time that will be part of the deal. I have to own the name. They can still make most of the money. But I need to own the name.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. So the question that's been left for you by a previous guest was what one decision could you make today that would have the most positive impact on your life long term. Don't eat sugar. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Nice to see you. It's not good for you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much.

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