How do you know if you are an arse assist? Like does a narcissist know they are one? Is there an arse assist test one can do? I don't there's about five to six tests out there that are designed to detect narcissism in its various ways. All of them have flaws like I said and it's not even fully the fault of the test because this is a very difficult thing to measure right we're trying to measure things that are not socially desirable right that's really tough
to measure. So a lot of the narcissism tests will measure things like as in some entitlement assertiveness self importance that people may not find as offensive but the research actually shows that narcissistic people overestimate their empathy and underestimate their negative effect on other people. They do not have a clear look at themselves they really haven't
almost deluded sense of who they are and how they go through the world. So when a person says to me I think I'm narcissistic I always say hold the presses you need to tell me a little bit about you because there's a lot of people out there who think of themselves as narcissistic
because they're in relationships with narcissistic people who have told them over the years you are such a selfish person because this unfortunate person is doing simple things like saying hey could we go where I want to go for dinner once or I want to talk about my feelings and then they're narcissistic partners saying oh my gosh you're so selfish and they're really sort of indoctrinated into this idea gaslighted into this idea that there's something narcissistic
about them. Once we clear the decks of that is there a subset of people out there who are narcissistic and are kind of in some awareness like this might be who I am yes and we call them self-aware narcissistic people. They're out there. Some of them view narcissism as their superpower. They say like don't take this away from me this is why I've got the edge this is why I close the sale this is why I'm the man I want to client I was like I'm the
man like oh my gosh so like a six year old but okay. The people men come to you women come to you and say I am a narcissist. Yes I've had that happen it's not common I can count on one hand the number of times it's happened. Did you agree with them? I think about an hour yeah. What were they how did they figure out they were a narcissist what were they saying?
They might have read they might have read my books or more more likely saw YouTube video they might have you know sort of again seen my content someone might have called said that to them and then they looked it up on Google and they're like that is kind of me but
they did in many ways rationalize it saying this is why I always close the deal this is why I'm like you know what was it don't hate the don't hate the player hate the game they would try that kind of stuff with me and I'd say but your behavior is offensive like this is not
okay what you're doing what you did you're you're doing on an ongoing basis to your spouse or partner is not okay and so they would have that awareness like almost like from a checklist yeah like yeah I don't care that much about people's feelings and yeah I guess I kind of think the rules don't
apply to me they'll have that awareness it's pretty uncommon like I said most narcissistic people veer into this idea of they overestimate their goodness and generosity underestimate how how negatively they're viewed by other people so let's talk then about the impacts of narcissism on
relationships particular what kind of people do narcissists attract in relationships and what kind of people are attracted to narcissists so it's such a good question I'm so glad you asked it what kind of people do they attract everyone's attracted to narcissistic people they're charming
their charismatic they're confident they're in research has shown they're often rated as more attractive than other people they take good care of their bodies they know lots of interesting things they're so concerned about hip-cred that they are like they know the cool restaurants that
all of us have been indoctrinated to think that these other people were supposed to be dating right who says no to charm charisma and attractiveness me maybe but just if nobody else would do that so we're all attracted to them right until and even with the vulnerable narcissistic
folks you'll say really someone's going to be attracted to Sullen and Risenfold that's not how they come off when you first meet them many times a vulnerable narcissistic person looks like a vulnerable child who needs to be rescued so if you like rescuing people or puppies or any small
vulnerable creature that's going to seem actually very attractive to you so we're all attracted to them what about what are they attracted to in us they're what they're attracted to in us is our supply now supply can mean different things to different narcissistic folks classical sorts of
supplier are we attractive if we're attractive if we have some form of social status if we have resource if we have connections the things that would get them supply here's where it gets wonky because the question attractiveness is what attracts people it's almost the wrong question the more
deep question is what gets people stuck in narcissistic relationships because narcissistic relationships start strong these are people who are running their fastest miles in the beginning of the marathon like they're just like go and this is these can often feel like a fairy tale it is
it's glamorous and it's exciting and it's the dates are really interesting and they're very attuned they may be very attentive they focus on you and they figure what's going to work for you if they really want to keep you close it's they want to they want to get you and they want to get you
quick because then you're like a butterfly under glass then they've got you captured because after all this good stuff happens you've bought in you might even be dubious for a while saying most seems to be too good to be true or I don't know but then people after about I always say it
somewhere between six weeks and six months the devaluing stage starts and then it's they've got you right and they you might get the passive aggressive digs the minimizations the lack of empathy the withdrawing the withholding and people say where did that for six weeks go to like wait a
minute we had such a good time and as the devaluing begins people start to blame themselves so people who are more empathic more forgiving more optimistic these are the kinds of people who get stuck because they're making allowances for this they're saying I mean I can't they were
lovely and they did say they're having a really stressful time at work but their behavior is consistently dismissive and rude it's you keep making excuses excuses excuses excuses but then there's a few good days sprinkled in there so one of the interesting things is a lot of people are
trying to figure out if their partners are narcissists. Do people in relationships especially long-term relationships tend to know that they're dating a narcissist or is the narcissist gaslighted them to the point that they they don't know until recently most people did not know because it's
feels like a disloyal thing to know about your partner many people say I love my partner we have built a life together there are enough good days that leaves them thinking like there's something here they're confused people in these relationships are confused they're they blame themselves for
everything that goes wrong they're walking on eggshells they've in essence modified themselves to be exactly what the narcissistic partner wants but it's a slow burn it's a very slow process of indoctrination I always say these relationships are death by a thousand cuts because it's just
all each of these things happen slowly over time it's almost as a one day you wake up you're like who am I like what have I become I'm literally like living in service to this other person it's only in the last 10 years I'd say that there's so much more content and the internet is
more robust with making this and I'm sure people type it in my partner has no empathy and is really entitled and yells at me a lot bing and the narcissism pops out at you I think this really created the revolution of people saying what is this and even when I wrote should I stare should I
go that was 2015 I think it was we're still in the beginning phases there were just maybe about a dozen books out there taking this on and so it's it's a as more information gets out there more people are clear that this is happening in their relationships the hope is the earlier you identify
it the less indoctrinated the less what we call trauma bonded you become and then the easier it would be to make clear headed decisions about how you want to proceed you talk about the three hours that are the hallmarks of negative relationships in your books what are the three hours so the
first is rumination okay that the rumination is it's an obsessive thinking about the relationship and it's usually in an attempt to either say what did I do wrong what happened what is going on it's a trying to fix it so these are the three things that someone that's in a relationship with
an narcissist will do yeah I mean they do a lot more but these are three common ones so the rumination is a whole marquee characteristic of a person in a narcissistic relationship in essence you're just trying to make sense of something that makes no sense the next r is regret
and that regret links to bigger themes like grief people having regret that this is the parent I have and I will never have a close loving relationship with them the regret that this is the marriage I created and my children will never get a healthy model of marriage the regret that I've
spent 20 years in this relationship and really all I have to show for it is a whole lot and nothing except that it's harmed me so the regrets play out even big ways and even small ways like why did I say that why didn't I say it that way and then the last r is it's really euphoric recall the
r being for recall by euphoric recall I mean that people in narcissistic relationships have an uncanny ability to sort of cherry pick the good things that happen in the relationship to keep rationalizing it and justifying it to themselves so they might be in a narcissistic relationship
or the person has really treated them heinously for a month but on one day of that month the narcissistic person when they went to the grocery store for the first time remember to bring home two muffins so that you could have a muffin and the person will say they brought me home the best
blueberry muffin wasn't that thoughtful they brought me home a muffin we had muffins together so the euphoric recall is the over focus on those good experiences as a way in essence to create the sort of psychological buy-ins so then you can maintain the status quo for people in narcissistic
relationships it's not as those are waking up saying this is a hellscape I want to get out they're getting up saying I'm so confused I feel like I'm never enough nothing I do is ever enough nothing I say is ever they're not listening to me what is going on maybe I'm not being clear
enough maybe there's something wrong with me so that's the confusion element so it's not like everyone's saying I want to get out of this there's a lot of history there's a lot of experiences together so people again and they're also confused because there's good things that
happen and bad things that happen and that's what creates like I said this thing called the trauma bonded relationship so people might even be able to say like there's something about this that isn't okay and might even be able to articulate these are the problems in the relationship
but the idea of leaving this relationship fills me with an absolute sense of panic would a narcissist play to that insecurity and that um that history well the narcissistic person created the insecurity and they they will because the narcissistic person is an expert
tactician right because that's what they bring to relationships is tactics and so they are very expert at knowing like ah your room is a bandiment piece of cake so if you say I can't do this anyway I'm out the narcissistic part and I'll say okay cool let's call it quiz you'll be like
oh that's not what I wanted them to say I wanted them to say they were going to fight for the relationship you see what I'm saying like that it's so interesting because and part of the reason narcissistic people are so successful is because they're so socially perceptive they have no
empathy social perceptiveness and empathy are not the same thing social so perceptiveness is kind of being aware of reading the room understanding what people need understanding what makes them tick and what they want and then strategically giving it to them to keep them on the chain
or keep them in the position you need them in that's not empathic can you cure narcissism in your opinion no I don't because I think that would imply changing a personality which I don't think we can do is there any evidence have you ever seen in your 20 years of working with
narcissists and their survivors any sign of a narcissist becoming a not narcissist or a non-noss I've not seen them become a not narcissists I've seen them make microchanges because I measure in monitor and make my notes in therapy so I'll see interesting they no longer trying to mess with
coming in 10 minutes later and asking me to keep them for the whole hour they are honoring the therapeutic frame they're paying the bill when they decide not to show up at the last minute I'll see tiny tweaks I'll see people who'll come in and say I screamed at my girlfriend again
last night and that wasn't cool so I was like whoa whoa that's insight like I'll run with it but here's the rub okay these microchanges and they are microchanges but they are changes and they're in the right direction that much water on the under the bridge for the family members
and partners and other people that have been harmed they're saying you want me to stay in this relationship because this dude remember to say thank you once this week I think not to me the thank you's progress to the people in their lives who've been harmed that one thank you's not gonna be enough