Jimmy Carr: "I Was Laughing & Crying When He Died". Jimmy Opens Up About Being Cancelled & How Anxiety Is The Flip Side Of Creativity!

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Would you please welcome Jimmy Karr! One of the most respected and best love comedians in the world, the king of one liners. Okay, strap in everyone. You ready? I'm going to start teaching comedy because we teach you how to come up with original thoughts to find your voice. You'll be chasing imposter syndrome and it's great. You should feel it every 18 months. You learned that failure is one of the great gifts of stand-up comedy and to learn how to lose gracefully.

It's a good test of how much you want something. How do we know what we actually want? I love what I do now but often questioned whether I should go be like a DJ. What? I can answer that question for you. No, you f***ing shouldn't. I know everything you do you think, oh maybe we can make a few quit out of this. No! There's a guy that's touring the world 300 days a year. What advice would you give me on how to be a better communicator?

I think at 92 beats a minute when you look at the great public speakers they all seem to be hitting that rhythm of 92 beats a minute. Anxiety. It's the flip side of creativity. So I think the cure for managing my anxiety is... Hang on. The Netflix special drops today so I imagine I'm being cancelled right now. How have you come to deal with that? So the next time I get cancelled I've got a plan. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to say.

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What have you been up to? I've been around. I've been working. I've very much enjoyed this last time and I'm kind of... I was a bit nervous coming back because it's a big show and I really enjoy listening. So I've given it quite a lot of thought. I've kind of made loads of notes and you know... Here's what I'll kick off with. I've been thinking a lot about gratitude as the mother of all virtues.

And I think, I'm right in saying this, I think you would give me everything you own in 25 years' time to be the age you are now and as healthy as you are right now. And I think it's a really interesting meditation to think about, right, if you had a time machine, if you were 30 years in the future, if you could be this healthy and feel this good and be this age, you'd give everything materially but you own in 30 years' time to be back here.

And just to take that in for a minute, just to take a moment to think about, wow, this is amazing. What does that inspire in terms of behavioural change in the moment? Well, I think it's that thing of like, I think gratitude is such an important virtue and it's... People talk about gratitude practice and it does take some practice and it often takes like, it's like a way of reframing the way that you see the world.

So I think that we suffer in the West a little bit from life dysmorphia. Do you hear a lot about body dysmorphia, gender dysmorphia? We've got life dysmorphia. A lot of people think their life is terrible because there's kind of the heredonic treadmill. You get used to how great your life is. No one had a hot shower until 50 years ago. So I try and do this thing when you stand in a hot shower.

George Mack, my friend pointed this out to me, went, well, when you stand in a hot shower just for a moment, just go, well, no one that you were at my age from 100 years ago had this simple pleasure in life. And when you look at the world that we live in, you're doing, there's been a hundred billion people ever, right?

And we are in the top, top percentile in terms of the luck that we have had, that the lives, like the calorific intake that we just take for granted, the fact that our children don't die, you know, in the first year, the modern medicine and our lives and the entertainment that we get. We're living like kings. And yet, life has never been objectively better and subjectively worse because the nature of humanity is our desires are mimetic.

So we've got this thing where we sort of, you know, how happy are you? Well, it's, it's your quality of life minus envy. That's how happy you are. And it's easy to look at everyone else and how they're doing and not take pleasure in what you have. It's funny because there's a cost to a hot shower isn't there? And that's exactly what you're describing there because subjectively, I think a lot of people don't feel like they are very happy.

And I think objectively, if you look at some of the stats around suicidality and depression and mental health, it doesn't appear that people are any happier. So even though we have sort of materially improved our lives, we have hot showers now. There's a cost to the hot shower in the sense that maybe it's made life too easy. Maybe it's life too comfortable. Maybe we're in a comfort crisis.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to be said on that. I mean, it's very, I suppose it's very tough love, but you can't have an easy life in a great character. Show me a trust fund kid that inherited a bunch of money and I'll show you someone mentally tortured. It's, it's true, right? Everyone's like your, your struggle, what way you've come from in plimuth, you know, in living in poverty to now, having stuff isn't fun, getting stuff is fun.

Right? It's not the pursuit of happiness. It's the happiness of the pursuit. Right? It's just, it's that thing and it's not like, you know, that the self-help, it's not the journey, it's the destination, it's not either the journey or the destination, it's who you become on the journey. And here's the terrible thing about life, it's self-assignment.

Like, you know, this school and college and then you get dropped into the real world at some point and you go, would you, you have to decide what you're going to do and you can take an easy path and it's ultimately less fun. It's short money or you take a hard path and you give yourself a challenge and it's great. And I think, you know, a lot of the times it's that thing of like, it's hard to do.

That's it's life is really, really tough. It was a tough things to hear and it's, it's easy for us because we're sort of on that road. But then, you know, the thing I love about this podcast is you're sort of trying to, there's so much kind of wisdom in it, so many stories that you're sort of, you're giving people this kind of road map for, okay, well, make your life a little bit harder in the short term and and and get somewhere.

And it's really, I didn't really get what religion was until comparatively late in life, like the idea that God is a proxy for the future. Right, so, so, so God represents the future. So work hard now for a better life in heaven. Right, so that's, it's kind of, it's the same as all self help. Like, do you, okay, so, so sacrifice the present for the future work is kind of the same. It's a sacrifice of the present for something better in the future.

It's like it's a, it's an interesting thing to sort of think around, isn't it? Like, what are you going to do now? So I've got this Chris Williams and you know Chris, really good friend of mine is lovely guy and we came up with this idea. So me, him and George Mack were chatting about what, what should you do today that you tomorrow would be happy you did.

So sort of 24 hours in the future, how best to live because people sort of set like, oh well, I'm going to do something for five years, you know, so it's this huge goal, but you won't rise to your goals, your fall to your systems. Right, so that thing of like, what could you do tomorrow? What could you do today, rather that you'd be happy you did tomorrow, whether it's the food you eat, the exercise you take, the work you do.

What do you do that? Oh, right, I went to the gym yesterday. I feel great, like a little bit of doms or I wrote 10 jokes and tonight I'm on stage trying those jokes. Oh, well, I'm, what thanks me yesterday. You know, I did something that was good. So you can kind of times going to pass whatever you do and you can give yourself gifts in the future.

You can be rich and you can have a six pack and you can be successful and you can be in a happy long term relationship with a beautiful family. You can give it yourself those, those gifts, but that there's some tough times in the present to give yourself that gift in the future. Something I really wanted to ask you about is you've climbed to the very peak of your profession. Like you really generational talent. This guy, that's what I'm sure. It's true.

You really have you think about where you started off for sort of 25 years old and you're mid 20s when you decided to leave that I think advertising business and pursue comedy. Where you are now really is must be the dream you like never really imagined could come true. You're at the very peak of your profession. And I think at the peak of your profession, I wonder sometimes if you wonder more than other people who are still on their journey at the mountain. What the point in all of this is.

Well, I think that's that's incredibly interesting. Okay. So there's a couple of things to unpick that so you never feel like you're at the top of your profession. Because you're a you're standing on the shoulders of giants in whatever industry you're in. So you might think, well, he's doing he's doing very well. You know, he's got a Netflix special and a new tour and that all of the you know all of the things. But then inside you're going, well, I'm as good as the next joke I write.

So the thing that I try and do is be quite stoic. I'm trying to be I'm trying to do less better. I'm trying to just be a stand up comedian. The world order to stand up comedian and I'm trying to honor that. Right. That's what people want right. Go out right jokes tell jokes. Push the boundaries great. That's your little role in the world. Do that. So the more I focus on that, the better it gets more people come to the show.

It's that thing of like I suppose the whole of the world is built on incentives, right. So you you you put down sugar you get ants. He tell jokes you deliver on a show and people come and they enjoy it and then they come back next time. Would you get out of that. I mean the self actualization I suppose the idea of going. Well, I do this thing that I very much enjoy comedy because it's an immediate feedback loop.

It's a very lucky business to be in because I don't have to wait like I don't have to discuss with someone. Oh, do you think this jokes going to work or not or what do you think it's too offensive? Do you think that? Tell it. Test it. It's kind of it's the Silicon Valley. The you know the the dual testing is this better than this. This or this. I'm like an an optician.

Like just is this this or this or this or this this wording or this wording and the audience is a genius. The audience tell me what works. So it's it's kind of. Yeah, it's it's a joyful thing to kind of to write a new show and then to put something on the on the shelf like the new Netflix special natural born killer. Now streaming on Netflix is is like it feels like I've given people irrefutable proof I am who I say I am.

And that feels really good like that's what I do that's better than the last one and last time I was on the show I talked about wanting to write longer bits longer form like I've got a great fastball. But I haven't got a knuckleball and I wanted to try and write some different bits that maybe made some points and I went away and I did it and for better for worse it's there and I gave it a shot and I think it's.

A better more rounded comedy special than the previous one and I don't hate the previous one. We've got really good jokes and it's really funny. I like it and then the new tour I think will be better again. I think you can see you see progress and what are you chasing. You're not chasing the thing it's your you're enjoying the process it's being so.

I don't think you get self esteem from the six pack you get at the gym I think you get self esteem from being the kind of person that goes to the gym every day. And I don't think you get anything from the from the show from having done the Netflix special but being the person to put that together is the that's that's the enjoyable thing. And you get you get kind of better at it you know the light the way doesn't get lighter your back is stronger.

I think about this with myself a lot I look at what I'm doing in business and stuff with the podcast and other things I go there are moments where my brain was myself the question like what's the end goal here. Because I've got the things that I materially need need to be happy I could retire and just go chill on a boat but for some reason I'm.

I'm sort of torturing myself in many respects to torture yourself and I'm very you do you're giving yourself a better character because you're giving yourself a challenge right we all need the challenge so it's like you know with any kind of mythological story it's the heroes journey and you're on a journey to do something to become something right and you're what's your what you're doing here what's your role in the world.

We're going and sitting on a beach isn't anything like you know there's a reason holidays are two weeks it's so you have three days of going we should get back.

Like holiday should be 10 days but somehow we made it two weeks and that's great because it allows people sort of three days ago and you know what I've got to get back to work I've got to do something I like that thing of like the top of your profession well you're always be looking ahead right someone that's you know if it's you for you probably Joe Rogan you go well Joe's got the biggest podcast in the world.

And what are you number two and you're cut and so you're you've got something to aim at and even if you're number one then you're going to go yeah but radio still bigger so like that thing if you'll be chasing something giving yourself maybe an artificial goal in the future but it's a it's a it's just a something to point you in the right direction is there a little bit of unhappiness as sort of voluntary and happiness involved in wanting to that thing often.

To that thing off in the future to think you know because if there's I sat with a psychologist psychiatrist the other day who's on the podcast and he said if you live your life continually wanting you're essentially deferring your happiness and replacing it with sort of discontent in the moment what this is I mean listen even worse people say great things chairman Mao said you can't smell the roses from a galloping horse.

So when you're moving at that kind of speed you don't take any time to enjoy life right so you have to just just enjoy the moment but you enjoy these conversations you enjoy the thing that you do now the hard work is a lot of the stuff around it you know the travel and the the admin or whatever but you have to love the whole job.

You can't just go well I want that bit because in the same way that people are jealous of you there be other podcasters that very jealous of what you've got but the jealous of what you've got they're not jealous of how you got it. No comedians are jealous of how I got it. No one sits there and goes I wish I could sit for 10 hours at am right jokes.

They think I want to play that venue or I'd love to have that Netflix special but they don't sit there going well what pathology would you need in your head to write that many one liners and to care that much about it who would you have to be to do that. And we're all chasing something right I think we're chasing imposter syndrome. I think imposter syndrome's got a bad reputation and it's great you should feel every 18 months. As you level up you should feel like do I belong here.

Right. This shows much bigger than it was when I was last time congratulations you why is it bigger well because you pushed yourself and you worked harder right. And now sometimes you feel like oh my god I'm interviewing this person. Great don't feel comfortable lovely. As soon as you start to feel comfortable you need to push yourself a little bit further. There's a great story my friend Thomas very name dropy story you mind.

All right Brandon flowers told me this story so he's filming a video with Lou Reed like 10 years ago they did a song with Lou Reed which is pretty cool for the killers. And they're filming this video when they're backstage they're in the green room and Lou Reed's there he's got leather trousers on he's got a leather jacket and a vest he's got mirrored sunglasses.

He's Lou Reed and he looks in the mirror and Brandon sort of sees him just like checking himself out and Lou Reed just goes I wish I was that guy. Lou Reed's got imposter syndrome and he's Lou Reed there's nothing no matter with it you know guy that's been a rock star in a legend for 40 years is still feeling that thing is like going I don't feel like I'm that guy. Great that's how you should feel.

So if you haven't felt imposter syndrome in the last 12 18 months you think there's something probably what push yourself a little bit hard I mean it depends it depends what you want to do you can have an easy life some people you know. Work to live some people live to work it's it's there's different ways of doing things it's not necessarily you don't necessarily need to push yourself in that way.

Like you're listening to us and you know there might be a side guard who's listening going with these guys pathologically ambitious this isn't healthy they should just be you know chilling out. And maybe they have a good point.

I look at your work ethic and I just feel like I've never seen anything like it for someone who is incredibly successful to look at your tour dates and I'm like this guy spends how many dates a year on stage maybe 300 shows a year something like 300 shows a year while most people turn up to work every day don't they I mean.

You know it's also most people like get your average listen to the show and go okay do you want to swap lives you get you have to work for two hours a day but you be telling jokes to people and it's joyful. It's what what looks like work to other people and feels like play to you there you go there's there's like it's a really happy life that people go my god he works so hard and I'm going you're joking on you you are literally joking and they go all the tour dates like this last week I was in.

I know what South Africa Paris is stand ball Budapest Vienna. What life what it is really there's the other thing about life people don't want to live longer they want more memories and and really how do you get more memories well it's it's doing novel interesting things so if you commute to work every day the same commute for a year you don't have 300 memories of that commute you've got one memory.

But if you do different things every day you go to different places you talk to different people you you experience the what that's a fantastic that variety in life gives you more memories more life. You pointed to your head a second ago and said we must be pathological in some way yeah do you think you are yeah yeah I'm not sure on the I don't know I mean I'm not sure if I'm not entirely sure of comedy isn't a some sort of low level mental health issue that you can turn into a career.

It's you know it's like for most people it seems quite strange to want to stand on stage and tell jokes it sounds terrifying to a lot of people but I find it very very fun. Have you ever figured out why you are wide in such a way. Not really I mean I suppose that thing of it goes back to childhood it goes back to my mother was incredibly funny larger than life Irish woman I was very very close to her I believe they call it in meshed when you have like a very close relationship with your mother.

And she suffered with depression and I didn't know you don't know as a kid your house is just your house you think it's normal right so if your mom's in addressing gowner when you get home from school and she hasn't got herself together you just think well that's what moms are like. So my whole childhood was aimed at making her laugh especially when driving.

It's a fun thing to do make your mom laugh grab the steering wheel trying you know have you had to unpack that to stop that getting in the way whatever that driving forces getting in the way of your adult life because I thought about that a lot myself I think the things that driven me here aren't necessarily the same.

Things that are going to help me succeed in the next phase of life whether it's being a father like I know you're you know you've had a kid I think in 2019 or whether it's being in a romantic relationship I've had to kind of really work hard to unpack. Things so that I can succeed in a new season listen I'm not therapist but here's what I would say I think you're going to have to make a transition from looking at measurable metrics to immeasurable metrics.

I think you've got an amazing resume you've got an incredible CV of stuff you've done and achievements and stuff you can point out and and the amount of views on the website and the money that you've made and the businesses you started great and I think the immeasurable stuff is going to become much more important. So George Mac had this kind of theory on we trade in life the measurable for the immeasurable so you trade work for time with parents company measure time with parents.

And it's kind of it's tough to lunch with your parents as opposed to the job and the thing in the work and the embassy and busy and busy and busy and you want to notice it when it goes to zero. So mum dies and you go well I'll never see her again what wouldn't you give now for another meal another time another thing so you go trying to find that balance in life and I think parenting and being a father is about that isn't it it's about that.

It's about trading the measurable for the immeasurable Warren Farrell tells a great story you know Warren Farrell it's like the myth of male power I think a lot of his writings been used by.

And he's very very authentic and he told the story I had him tell the story said this guy came to me and very successful man you know head head of a business that makes millions really doing very well and he said he was unhappy because he had worked all the way through his son's childhood and he hadn't bonded with the.

Because he just being away at work and he went to see Warren Farrell and he said you know psychiatrist or whatever and he said he said what are you going to do he said well I'm going to give up my job for five years and I'm going to be at home with my kid. I'm not doing any of that I'm going to be with my kid for five years just being that moment and he did it and he was very happy that he did it was John Lennon.

And no matter how important you think your job is you're not John Lennon you know I'm sure we could have done great things in those five years but you think oh my god I'm so glad he did that I'm so glad because of what incredible artist he was he given us so much and that he had those years for himself and that's for him I mean I imagine he's good I imagine Sean Lennon is very glad he did that but he got that time.

And I imagine he didn't regret it and his life was cut short tragically and you think it's even more powerful when you consider that he didn't put it off he didn't go well I'll do that I'll get to I'll get to a million subscribers and then I'll do that I'll sell a few more records and then one more tour and then I'll spend time with the family he did it that beautiful. There's a lot of emotion in your face when you tell that story beautiful story is not.

I mean I could I when you think about it you go that's kind of that's life is not that any mortality I think is something we don't think about enough. I love that the Muslim phrase for death the certainty.

You know we're in this brief shaft of light between two oceans of darkness everyone always thinks about the tail end right and things about what happens after you die Mark Twain had this great quote you know we were you home he said he said I wasn't alive for billions of years before my birth and it didn't inconvenience me in the least. This brief shaft of light kind of magnificent isn't it I think so I think it can be.

This idea of you know depression is essentially thinking about yourself too much you last time we spoke on the podcast you talked about. I would say yeah sorry that that feels to me maybe a little bit too harsh because I think people suffer with depression and that's a it's a disease and it's incredibly serious and we think of suicide.

As being something that stands alone it's not a symptom of a disease called depression right so it's the it's the permanent solution to a temporary problem you don't want to feel this way anymore.

But actually you don't want to feel nothing anymore you'd like to feel better so it's that thing of like I don't we talk about enough but I think that thing of you know think about yourself all the time I think you just feel like you can lead to a melancholy a sadness I think depression is maybe a slightly separate thing not to. It feels like it's a disease yeah and there's also a lot of sadness in the world and you're lucky if you're sad.

Because if you're if you're sad it's circumstantial and you can do something about it you know are you depressed because you have serotonin imbalance in your head and it's a heritable trait or are you sad because your life

is a little bit more of a problem than the way you wanted to work out well if that's the case the latter you're in luck because you can change that it does feel like there's a bit of a crisis going on within young men at the moment and I think your new show on Netflix shines a light on many the difficulties that young men are facing I was really excited to talk to you about this particular topic because I've been trying to arrive at a position myself on why so many young men appear to be lost and

the influences or masculine influencers that are really rounding up this cohort of young men who are talking about the and your tapes of the world take interesting is because who made the I think John Mulaney made the observation Trump is a poor person's idea of what a rich person looks like yeah I got gold taps and I think so and

I think it's like a 14 year old boys idea of what masculinity might look like like it's really it's it's and of course nature a boys of vacuum and there's a real vacuum for elders like we now we don't learn how to shave from our kids it's a YouTube video and so you lose something in that in that bonding so there's a big bit in the new show where I give a young guy an audience member a pretty tough time like we have the talk and I give them advice on how to be with the woman

and it's I'm not wrong about anything it's really funny and it's really rude but I'm not wrong about stuff it's like it's about consent and it's it's I think it's really it's really good because it's I've shook at the pill of the message because people don't want to talk about it people go it's obvious what consent is yeah not to 17 year old boys all girls it's like actually what what does that look like and how should that be so it's

a it's a really fun routine really fun routine to perform and to write what is it to be a man these days because it's quite confusing in time even the conversation around like chivalry and understanding you know what people talk about toxic masculinity and easy fix be a gentleman be a mench that's it this is done be a gentleman be a

manch you know a gentleman is never rude by accident Christopher Hitchins line great I don't know I mean my thing about young men today if I was going to give young men advice it would be get the right drugs and the real thing right in real life live in real life right so why young men are obsessed by video games right obsessed they're spending hours and

hours online playing video games why well that's a proxy for career right video games you think about the levels of video games and what people do on the internet that's a proxy that's like a it's a it's a substitute for the career that they're not having and then they spend a lot of time you know fapping to to pawn hub or you you born or whatever and that's a proxy for sex and my thing would be George all well wasn't right

our power won't be taken away from us by some authoritarian master we're going to give it away for cheap dopamine and the mean of video games and online porn and living online is is is getting in the way of real life so it's risk right that's that's what we're not allowing young people to do

because we're saying to young people you can't take risks in real life we're we're helicopter parenting we're not giving them the freedom how much freedom should you give a kid as much as they can cope with right 14 year olds used to be babysitters they now need baby babysitters that's not good right so you should allow them more freedom in in the real world because otherwise the only place they get freedom is

online no freedom in the real world you're not allowed to go to the park and hang out but you're allowed to do whatever you want online well that's a that feels like a very bad social experiment that feels like a bad idea yeah it feels like we've inverted you know maslow this pyramid the hierarchy of needs and you go off food and shelter and warmth and to do all that we've got all the bottom stuff worked out in our society right we we can't

see it we're not grateful for that because we can't see the hot shower the hot shower we can't see the third world and we can't see the people in the past having a tougher time than us so we take it for granted but we worked out that stuff they hadn't worked that stuff out 200 years ago but they had the top of the pyramid sorted everyone knew who they were they had their identity and they knew what their purpose was everyone knew who they were what they were about and they were

connected to to the others in the in the group and now we're kind of free floating individuals we kind of worship the individual as if as if we can survive as individuals I always think of that there's no such thing as a baby there's a baby and a mother there's a baby and a father baby and an auntie but there's no such thing as a baby because a baby on its own isn't

anything instead you it needs taking care of we're all still babies we all need the connections you yourself here sure there's there's a lot of yourself that's within you but a lot of it is out in the world it's connected to other people and it kind of immediate to you think you are and that's you

know that's that's slightly missing from society where you kind of live online and you're kind of a self-authored thing you're just on on the computer on the screen and you're not connected and you're not taking risks taking risks is really important.

Is this in part due to the rise in atheism and agnosticism I think we we both mean you lost our sort of religious faith around the same age I think sort of early mid mid mid mid I think it's a weird thing where you go you can lose your I certainly don't believe in the story

there's two types of fools right there's people that book take religion literally and there's people that think it has no value okay both both idiots for different reasons like it works as a thing religion I quite I miss it because the reason the ceremony works isn't because

God's pleased because the people came together and so I think we look for things that that are proxies for religion and sometimes that's could football it could be environmentalism you know because you go well I I need something I need purpose in my life I need to

feel like I'm I'm adding value and what a great cause I'm going to save the planner it's a big thing to think about is it's got a religiosity to it but I don't think that's the you know I don't think that's necessarily the answer you know some people do it

with politics they think politics is going to is going to be heaven they're going to they're going to come up with some perfect system I think you're putting too much pressure on politics first time I've ever said this actually but when you just said I

think I miss religion I think I miss religion nice wasn't it so it was lovely thoughts while when you lose someone that you love very much it's a lovely thought I mean heaven is just it's a lovely thought and I think in a way in our culture fame and fortune has

replaced heaven it's the land of milk and honey and where you can feel like your everything's okay everything's taking care of everything's okay everything's taking care of and it is good but it's it's not it's not heaven I don't believe in an

afterlife I believe in the next life so I don't think anything happens after you die but I think you can have a next life a very different life so it's interesting you're at this point of your your life when you're thinking about well I might start a family

so it's a whole other life so whole other your heart do recognize yourself you and your partner will be saying what do we do what do we do all day now we're not a pepper pig world or wherever you find yourselves it's really just struck me that I do kind of miss religion but it feels like when I

lost my religion I put a backpack on a backpack full of weights on and I think that's what the responsibility and individualism is I mean for me the loss of religion was a rush of blood to the head it was like oh I this is my life and I need to make good on this and I need to live it the

tragedy is most people don't have that kind of they don't get to kind of follow their their dream when you're 20 years old your mother died who had a you know a profound influence on you for many reasons but also is very much the inspiration or at least the singular biggest causal factor of your career when I read through your story even more recently you've undergone quite a lot of grief even the loss of your dog I

believe which had a pretty large impact on you I think grief is cumulative so every time you lose someone or something and I'm actually losing a pet can be it's a weird thing because people lose pets and it's like I don't know the other people in the office can be a

bit okay oh well what we do for lunch it's like can be a really affecting thing because it's not just everyone you've lost and you think about mortality but you think about your own mortality and you think about you know you can think about it takes you

to a very melancholy place of life at some point you gotta say goodbye and I guess you think about those things of going what of the you know in life as we were talking about the the great you can have great a great resume great CV loads of stuff on

but what are people going to say at your eulogy that's the important thing that's the stuff that really matters and it's a very different it's again it's the it's the it's a hidden metric of what people going to say at your your funeral what are what are people going to say when you

when you pass I don't know I think griefs it's a it's very interesting it's very it is that thing of it you know kind of comes in and you know think about it for a long time and then it and then it hits you how have you dealt with grief in your life I mean I I I think when my I

don't know I think I think I'm slightly guilty of being a suppressing it a little bit I think when I think was Sean Lock died I was very upset by and you just got to work you just kind of go well I'll I'll put myself in this joyful place of laughter and maybe not have to think about as much but it's a yes you know they gone forever and there was something really amazing about what you're

saying about Zinedine by Dr.S emotions that started I was a Alyssa that was going to disappear at this restaurant. kind of a real kind of cognitive dissonance. I felt really upset. And then they played just all the funniest clips of Sean, like people just sending me clips, clips, clips. And he was just so funny. And that joy is kind of there. It's really lovely. It's really like for all of social media's ills on that day, my god, it made a difference.

What did it make you realise about both Sean and life when he passed? I don't know whether there's any great revelation. I think it's that thing of just, you know, enjoy your time. Enjoy this, because it's fleeting. I mean, all too fleeting for Sean who's very young. But it's, you know, I think that that thing of you know, family and spending time with the people that you love and doing what you love. I think prioritising that.

If you want to meet someone high agency, meet someone that's got six months to live. I'd say their tolerance for bullshit is about as low as it gets. I think living your life like that, it's not a bad idea. It really shows you what your priorities would be. Someone said, you had six months to live, or what would you do? That's what you should be doing anyway. Yeah, that's really what I'm getting at. Is there something that are facing our own mortality teaches us?

But unfortunately, we often learn that when we haven't got a lot of time to implement it. And sometimes when someone close to us passes away, we can for carelessly learn that message about our own mortality. And what really what our priorities should be, and really how we should be living our life, and really what mattered the most.

And I imagine losing someone that was as close to as Sean was, since you some kind of message about priorities and life and gratitude, and all these things we talked about. Yeah. I think gratitude is a big part of it as well, about the idea of going, wow, that was pretty special. You were sort of sort of... I might grab another coffee. Can I grab the rest of my coffee? That's all right. My loud. He said, breaking with the former, I might shuffle my notes as well. I might shuffle my notes.

This is a business poll, Gaster, at least that's how it started. And... Is it? Have you listened back? Because I don't think it is. No, that's not good. I'll be honest with you. It's not. This is... But business is life. You know what I mean? They're the same thing. It's communication, mental health, striving, progress, people, relationships. It's all business at the end of the day.

It... I mean, you are re... I mean, this... I know it's still called Daryl Desillo, but I don't think you've talked about business on this for like three years. And even then, it was like a passing. So when you started your business, how did that make you feel? This isn't. You're an old hippie is what you are. You love this is a great podcast, but this is a storytelling podcast. So many entrepreneurs are old hippies. I think Steve Jobs, he was an old hippie. Yeah. You know, and...

It's interesting. I think that thing of like... What does business teach people? Like we're talking about like young men and... And kind of there's a bit of a crisis going on out there with young men. And listen, young women are not having an easy time either. But it's... That thing of like the suicide rate, whatever, is horrific with young men. And you go, well, what's going on? And it's agency. I don't think we're giving young people enough agency. So they don't feel like they have...

They have control. And really, I think they're think of like... Serial entrepreneurs. Like no one ever seems to hit on their first company. But it's the second and third and fourth. And... But they just keep going and they go, well, I'm never going to work for anyone. I'm going to do it myself. That's kind of... I don't think we're teaching enough of that. It's a way of thinking, is like teaching someone to be a self-starter. It's kind of a contradiction in terms. But it's...

It kind of works, right? There's... I think we're teaching the wrong things. I've got a theory. I think I'm going to start teaching comedy. And... Okay. So... Comedy's very new. It really... You could trace its roots back to George Carlin and Richard Pryer in the early 70s. As like one guy on stage in a big theatre and he's selling tickets and people are just seeing him, right? And you can trace it back to the dawn of time.

But really, the modern stand-up early 70s is a good, good starting point. Right? So it's very new medium compared to music and film. Right? Very new. So I sort of view George Carlin and... Richard Pryer is... They're John the Baptist, right? And... And Jesus isn't here yet. And it's this new evolving medium. And unlike music, we don't have a language yet. So we need a language of like, okay, what are the joke types? And how do you write that down? How do you configure it?

There's too much magical thinking around stand-up comedy. You know, the idea that I just came up with it. It's just... Yeah, just... But actually learning how jokes work and systematizing and analyzing them, I think, really helps. So I've been working on a book with Amanda Baker who helped me on my first book. We've been working on a thing together for the last couple of years trying to teach comedy. And I think there's a real benefit to it. Because if you think about music in schools, right?

We'd all argue learning music is great, right? It's a great idea. I teach kid the piano, grade three. They learn something about music, and they'll appreciate music much more in life. I think comedy is much more relevant, right? What does comedy teach you, right? It teaches you... You learn to kind of... You find yourself and you find your voice and you learn to communicate your ideas and to order them and write them down and to communicate. It's very valuable.

Like the great tragedy of life is most people live and die and never hear their own voice. Everybody wants to be a better speaker, a better communicator. You know, it's funny because I sat with a guy called Julian Treja, who has, I think, a TED Talk on Communication and Speaking that. Did I know? 30, 40 million views. And he said, I also did a TED Talk on listening. I can now listen to it. Everyone listen to the talk about being a better speaker. That's pretty funny. No, I can imagine that.

As a guy that's touring the world, 300 days a year, you must have really been able to break down the science of communication and being a good speaker. That's transferable to business, public speaking, life, sales, etc. What advice would you give me on how to be a better speaker communicator? All right. Okay. 92 beats a minute. I mean, speak at 92 beats a minute. That's, there you go. I mean, there's kind of a science behind it and I've looked into it.

But most great public speakers sort of speak in a rhythm. It doesn't matter how fast they're speaking, but they're kind of hitting 92 beats a minute. So I tend to listen to a playlist of songs that are all 92 beats a minute before going on stage. I know that sounds like madness. You know, and it's, it may be it is, but I think there's something about that rhythm that just the audience, that kind of the proximal speed of cognition, that idea everyone kind of gets into that rhythm.

And when you look at the great public speakers, they all seem to be hitting that rhythm of 92 beats a minute. Do you think Trump's a good public speaker? Yes, an excellent public speaker. Of course. I don't know why people would have a problem admitting that. I mean, he's kind of, and he's freestyling. He's like, there's nothing planned. This is, this is insane.

Yeah, it's a, because he really leads into sort of exaggerated storytelling and emotion much more than facts and figures than most politicians. I mean, it's a, it's, you know, there's a theory that this is all Gwen Stefani's fault. What do you mean? Okay, so Donald Trump was, was posting the apprentice. And Gwen Stefani was on America's Got Talent or one of the singing shows, maybe his act's fact, anyone, one of those big singing shows. He found out she was getting paid more than him.

And so he wanted to build his relevance, right? So he decided, well, I know, our run for president are become incredibly relevant for like three months. He's a contender, he's whatever. And then you drop out the race, no problem at all. So he hires all those people in Trump Plaza, and he comes down the gold escalator, and he does the speech and do great, okay? Nothing. He then goes, and there's footage of this. He then goes and does the first make America great again rally.

And they've got footage of him walking up the steps, and he sees like 10,000 people all chanting. And there's the realization, oh, oh, this could be real. It's kind of a, yeah. I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, Gwen Stefani did it. Get a, get a, yeah. I was, the reason I was, I was talking about businesses because, because this is not over CO, it's a podcast about business. No, it's short. It's short. It's short.

It's because you taught me last time, sort of indirectly about something that I've now developed, and I called myself No Man's Land, which is that moment when you make a decision to leave the comfort and security of your identity, your professional, you know, endeavor, whatever it is, you're working in marketing. And then like I always reference how objectively insane it was for you to leave that and go and become a comedian. And I've dubbed that No Man's Land.

That's sort of six to 12 months of looking a bit stupid, of losing your friends, losing, you know, refer to these five buckets in life. You have your knowledge skills, your network, your resources, and your reputation. And when you go into No Man's Land, you fill the first two buckets of your knowledge and skills, but you empty the last three, you lose your network, you lose your resources often, you lose your reputation, whatever that was at the time, but you fill these first two buckets.

You made that for whatever reason, decision to leave a normal life and go and tell jokes for No Money. Some people for some reason, and I've seen consistent on this podcast, like Darren Brown, he was had a great professional life ahead of him and decided to go do car tricks on tables and restels for 10 years. I know. What is it about these people that's making them? I think they've had the realization, right? They've had the Confucius moment.

Every man has two lives, and he second begins when he realizes he only has one. And the good is the enemy of the best. Because you know when people are on podcasts like this, that moment looks like bravery, but I wonder if to you, when you quit your marketing job? No, there's plenty of four o'clock in the morning. Oh, what have I done?

This seems crazy, especially when you really kind of, when you break, because when you leave as well, you don't have like an hour of great stuff of like that you've written. You've got like 20 minutes of stuff that you kind of look back on and go, oh, that's kind of joke-shaped. There's something there, but really, it's insane. Yeah, but I think that's great. I think failure is one of the great gifts of stand-up comedy.

You sort of make friends with failure as a stand-up, because you write so many things that don't work. You write so many jokes that you think, oh, this is going to be great, and then you tell that in the audience, go, no, that isn't anything. I don't want to get out of here. Guess again. And that idea of going, failure is kind of frowned upon in our society. We don't let kids fail. We don't let kids lose their sports.

We don't let, you know, that, it's really silly, because you're sort of teaching them, if everyone's a winner, then you don't learn how to lose. And to learn how to lose gracefully is that's a great skill to have, isn't it? And you kind of, you know, it checks your ego and you, you, you, something, not everything in life is going to work out for you. And it's in case you test it. And it's a good test of how much you want something.

You go and have you have a terrible gig and you're, well, I'm never doing that again. Or you have a terrible gig and go, well, you know, you lose or you learn.

You develop your relationship with no. I've, someone said this to me the other day, and it really stuck with me that you need, you know, I worked in Telly Cells for a couple of years, and it really helped me develop my relationship with the answer no. And so now in life, I think I have a much healthier relationship with the word no. Because for me, in Courset, and it's that the law of averages, where in the Courset, all it meant was that I was one step closer to getting the yes.

So I'd get, you know, you get loads of notes in a row and you sit there and go, okay, now this next guy's going to buy these fucking double glazing. And I think at a 16 years old, I developed that relationship with no, which meant in my head that it was getting me closer to a positive outcome. Lots of kids don't have that these days, because we shield them from no. No, it's seen as a self-esteem hit. For me, it was building some kind of muscle in me. I don't know.

But self-esteem on its own, like confidence without confidence, is madness. It's madness. You have to give the world irrefutable proof you are who you say you are, right? So you release a comedy special, whatever. You go, yeah, that's me. That's what I do. The new tool, that's me. That's what I do. It's irrefutable evidence, right? I am who I say I am. And I think that idea of going taking away the negatives. You can't just, I mean, you can. But then I think we're, I think it's very cruel.

I think we're being kind on the wrong timescale to people. If you're kind, you want to be kind to your kids, right? I want to be kind to my kids. What do my kids want? Well, they want McDonald's and they want ice cream and they want to watch TV and play video games. Well, okay, downstream are some fat, stupid kids. Who wants fat, stupid kids? No one. So you have to be kind to their potential, to who they're going to be, right? And that involves, you know, broccoli and homework.

And there, boring, going on a walk. Doing some exercise. There. Okay, but you're being kind later. And I think that it's very easy to see that when you're a parent. And it's hard to see that with an 18-year-old that's maybe struggling. It's the toughest you're point about being kind to you in 24 hours, I guess. Yeah. It's a similar thing, right? Like seeing the potential in someone. Seeing the potential in yourself, in a child, in anyone.

But in yourself, that's kind of the thing of going, well, you could be incredible in 20 years' time. Because really, that thing of like, it's the, I suppose, what's the opposite of gratitude? It's resentment. And who had the great line, Nietzsche, had the great line on resentment? He said, if you think someone's ruined your life, you're right. It's you. Like, that's a mic drop, isn't it? That's such a great line. And, you know, gratitude is the cure for that.

There's a great definition of entitlement, which is where you are now and where you want to be. If you want to do something about it, that's ambition. Where you are now, where you want to be. If you think that someone else is problem, that's entitlement. And I think if we're honest, there's always a little bit of that going on. Like, there's a lot of people in my industry that would, you know, their career isn't where they think it should be. And, ah, I need to get a new agent. Really?

You think that might be the problem? Remember, there's a great story of, I wasn't there, but David Tell is sort of the comedians comedian. He works out a New York late night. He's, I mean, really one of the greats, one of the most influential voices in comedy. And these guys backstage were like moaning about their management. And he's kind of overhearing this conversation. It's going on for far too long. And he just, he just wouldn't, ooh, be funnier. It's often very simple.

That's stoic thing of going, what's the thing you're meant to be doing? Just do that. I'm not sure I approve of portfolio sort of working. The idea of having lots of different things that you do. Because really, you're going to do comedy part-time. What you're going to do, half comedy and half novel writing. Oh, so you're going to compete? I'm doing it 100% at the time. And you think you can compete 50% at the time. All the best. Let's see how you do.

You're never going to get to the top of the pyramid doing it 50% at the time, right? Yeah. And there'll probably be a lot of resentment, as you say in entitlement. But, you know, be a specialist. That's one of the favorite parts of my previous conversation that I had with you where you talk about the world doesn't need more people that are shit in physics. And it really helped me understand a lot of things.

So also then shortly after Matt Richard Branson in New York, and he's the most incredible delegator. He's not trying to get good at things that he's not good at. He's built his whole business in life on realizing what he's shit at and just handing that over to other people. Whereas so many people are fighting to polish something that they're not so good at. Yeah. I think knowing who you are is quite important for that, it's like being honest about it.

Like, well, I'm not good at that, but I can do this. It's hard to know who you are though. Cloudy thing. Yeah, I mean, it's what it's. Yeah, it's, well, yeah, it's also that thing of, it takes a bit of time. I'm not sure whether we're not kind of rushing people on that a little bit. Yeah. I was sort of often think of like the listeners to this show, right? So like certainly the younger ones of kind of going, well, do I need to know now who I am and what I want to do? Exactly.

It's like, no, you can, you know, try a few different things. If you like, because I think that thing when you get into the stream that you're meant to be in, it just feels very easy. It's like, you're not, you know, swimming against the tide. Just feels like it's carrying you along. I love what I do now, but I also often question whether I should go be like a DJ or do musical theatre or something. What's me? Do you want, I can answer that question for you. That's a bit of luck.

No, no, you fucking shouldn't. What, what? You think you maybe should do musical theatre? What? Are you having a panic attack? What, what are you talking about? What would make you think that? I bought some DJ equipment and I spent about a year learning and I thought, I fucking love doing this. Great, you've got hobby. You've got hobby, not everything's a business. I know it's Dara of a CEO and everything you do, you think, oh, maybe we can make a few quid eyeless. No, stop it.

What are you talking about? You know who's, you know who's being a DJ right now? There's someone right now in their bedroom. They've been there for 12 hours already today and they're just loving it and they're putting everything into it. They're putting the work you put into the podcast into DJing. Let them have that. It's nice to have stuff where you're in a flow state in life and for some people that's work and for some people that's a hobby.

And some, some are very lucky and we get to do it in a few different things. So I play a little bit tennis. I don't think I'm going to get the wild card at Wimbledon this year. There, I've given up on that. It's just a hobby. And listen, I mean you might be the next Calvin Harris. I might be steering you in the wrong direction. You might be incredible but stop it. Stop it, just do this. This is great. This is enough. This is loving. You're talking to the most interesting people.

I mean, the present company accepted but you, you know, you speak to all these different people from different worlds. And it's, it's, this is enough, right? How do you know if it isn't enough? Well, I want to talk to you about quitting because there's going to be a cohort of people that listen to them. I met a lot of them last night at a show I was doing and they are working in finance and they'll tell me their job.

Then they'll show me their hobby on their phone and their face lights up when they show me their, you know, their papier mache business or whatever it is on that phone. What's the great line? It's the, you know, if you want to find out what you should do in life. What do you think about all the time? That's your God. Well, working in the city with a certain tie on it. Yeah. J.K. Morgan or something. No, but no one's thinking about that all the time.

You know, so what, what do you, what do you think about all the time? What do you, what do you engage in all the time life? It's, if it's football, if you're absolutely obsessed by football or something in their industry is going to be the job for you because you're obsessed by that and that's what you think about all the time. So the, the idea of quitting, quitting is quite interesting because, oh, the things that you won't do.

Like if you're going to have an interesting life, you can't have all the other interesting lives you would have had, right? So there's all the counterfactuals of the different sliding doors that you could have done. Like, well, you know, if you're going to be an Olympian, you're going to have to give up an awful lot of stuff. Like you're not really going to have a childhood in the traditional sense, but you're going to be an Olympian. Great.

And if you're, if you're going to be an academic, then you're probably not going to be, have it, you go to as many parties. Well, okay, well, that's, you know, there's no solutions only trade-offs. You know, Thomas Sauer, isn't it? You have to make a lot of trade-offs because not only, you know, are you on the road for a hundred days a year, but you have so much opportunity. There's so many things being offered to you to do movies.

Why don't you try and be an actor or why don't you write five more books or why don't you do, I'd know a comical musical or whatever it might be. Why don't you become a DJ? DJ and musical theater. Those are my two prime loves. Yeah, I mean, there's a few. There's not as many as you would think. I don't know. I was banging down my door saying, do you want to be in a movie. And I don't know if I'd be, I don't know if I'd be great at that. I don't know.

I mean, listen, I like getting out my comfort zone. And, you know, opportunities come along and sometimes you get off the TV show, you go, I'm not, give it a go, why not. I think sticking to what you do, that stoic thing has really paid dividends. That really has paid off. And I think you have to listen to that. You know, and I see other comics, you know, mentioning no names, there's some great stand-up comics that were like absolutely amazing. And they're doing five other things now.

And they've lost a yard of pace. And for me, that feels crazy. Like, you've got, because I'm looking at it going, you've got the best job in the world. Why are you allowing yourself to be distracted? Because ultimately, it's going to be hard work. You know, ultimately, I mean, people can see it, I suppose, that the, you know, something costs more. Like, a Ferrari costs a lot of money because a lot of work goes into it, right? There's a lot of work goes into that thing.

That's a beautiful handmade, a Louis Vuitton thing is, it's going to be expensive because a lot of work went into it. People understand that. I sort of feel the same about shows. You're going to see a show and you're, wow, that really took some time. Every single line in that is brilliant. He's not wasting any time. There's no fat. It's just, it's a lot of work.

When people look at you and they look at successful individuals, they think, are they just must be innately motivated in some way that I'm not. What I do think that's, it's slightly unfair that we think about luck in a very fixed way, right? So, a Barbie and Oppenheimer are great to talk about with this, right? So people see Margot Robbie and they go, well, she's just lucky, right? She was born. She's that beautiful, right? She's so beautiful. People can't see how good an actress she is, right?

People just can't, because she's just like sort of this stunning thing. And you look up on him, right? No one thinks, I so lucky, born with an IQ of 170. And born with a work ethic, because a work ethic is heritable, right? So he was born, incredibly clever, and an incredible work ethic, right? And no one thinks that him is being lucky, but they think her is being lucky. Weird thing, right? That's odd. In the art perception of luck and how much is your factory settings.

You know, it's always, I took the do-of-at-this before, but it's always like some bullshit. If someone's very successful, you'll either go, wow, incredible talent, or oh, work so hard. No, always both together. And all like you said earlier, maybe a bit pathological in some way, which I don't know whether you've been a talent book or not. Again, you put the pathological, the work ethic, the striving, a lot of that is heritable. So what are you going to do?

I think when you see luck in that way, I think you've become much more forgiving of, okay? Quite crazy this idea of luck. I've been thinking a lot about it lately. I was reading some stories about the work ethic that I've been doing. I was reading some stories about even the asteroid hitting Arthur. It'd been a minute later that the dinosaurs would still be here. And the story of Nagasaki and Hiroshima being bombed, because one guy went to Kyoto 20 years early, and he really liked it.

So he told President Truman not to bomb it. And if he hadn't been on holiday there with his wife, then Kyoto would have been hit by the nuclear bomb. And then they went over Kaku-ru, I think, City in Japan, and that had a cloud. So they sort of fuck it. We'll go bomb Hiroshima and a hundred thousand people over there, lost their lives in every generation that would have come, lost it.

You think these tiny little things that are going on in the world at all times, kind of like this idea of the butterfly effect, a shaping our world, and it can make you feel a little bit powerless in some way, because if someone's holiday can be the difference between me being a live or dead, it's very difficult to think about the first order of what we do, not the second and third order effects. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that's a lot to take in.

With this idea of luck in mind, personal responsibility seems to sell on the other side of the conversation of luck, which is how much can I control where I'm going in my life? How much control do I have? How much should I show up and fucking fight for positive outcomes? Yeah. Well, that's agency. You should strive to have the locus of control within yourself.

Like, so there's this character and there's reputation, and reputation is what the world thinks of you, and character is what you know about yourself, and your self-esteem should be largely based on your character, and a little bit based on reputation. Because reputation's, you could take a hit every now and then. You get canceled once in a while. Well, once every 18 months, well, I hang on there, the Netflix special drops today, so I imagine I'm being canceled right now somewhere.

How have you come to deal with that? Because as a comedian, you guys get it worse than anybody. I don't know if we get it worse than anyone. I think we're sort of the canary in the mind. It's, I don't know, I sort of view it as respectability is a prison, and the gates are open, and people are desperate to be inside. Right? I'm not a respectable guy. I tell very edgy out there jokes, and jokes are like magnets. They attract some people. I've got a big following.

I've got a lot of people who watch my shows, and they really enjoy it. And like magnets, they attract people, and they repel people. Some people are repel by my jokes, and they think they're terrible. I'm not for everyone. I think you have to accept that. And you know, it's when it comes out on Netflix, when it drops. That's when it kind of, the pathogen escapes the lab. Because people that didn't pay to see this, are suddenly exposed to it.

Someone puts a clip somewhere and goes, this is banned, this filth. Okay. Banging stuff is like, I sort of view cancel culture as the new, and this isn't saying criticism isn't valid. You criticize ideas, but you cancel people. And I think the cancel culture thing, I think it's the new book burning. It's no different. The people that burn the Beatles records in the 60s. Now they feel now. You feel like a dummy? I bet they feel like dummies.

It's like, and obviously the basket of things that are acceptable and unacceptable change and ebb and flow through time. But really, it's, you know, I'm a creature of my time. I'm going to tell these jokes, and if they get big laughs, then great. Have you always had this perspective, or is this something that's developed like a muscle over time? No, I think there's, I think that adversity, I mean, cancel quite a few times. And there's, I try and see the positives in life, right?

So adversity is a filter, and you find out who your friends are, and who stands by you, and who's, you know, who's right or die. Great. Turns out, got loads of great friends. And a couple of people fell by the wayside. And great. And I have to waste any time on them, because everyone loves you when you're throwing a party. But in the tough times, you're a bit more difficult to love. And if people stand by you then, then they're friends. That's, that's what it is.

You know, friendship is such an important thing. It's something that we don't really think about. We think about a lot about our partners in life and our children and that side of family. Friendship for me is such an important thing. It's such a huge part of my life. And really, when you think about it, why, why is comedy having this moment? Well, because comedians, it's a little bit like a friendship, right? There's no filter.

And really, your best friend is the person you have the least filter with. Your deepest darkest, you share, you open. And a colleague, you know, quite a lot of filter. And someone you meet at the bus stop. Tons of filter, right? Comics, currently, there's no filter. You see Shepel on stage. He's, it's him. Great. You see Chris Rock on stage. That's him. It's like you feel connected. Lovely.

There's really something in that idea of, as you're saying there, that there's so little authenticity and vulnerability and openness in the world that when we encounter it, we feel so connected to it because it cates us to the demand that we have that's not being met with supply. There's so much supply of like filter, girl on holiday in Hawaii drinking cocktail.

But in our sort of private and our secret lives, there's very little reflection of what we think about in our private and secret lives in the world. So when we hear someone talking about their depression or their mental health, we go, oh my god, that, you know, I can resonate or is this not why the podcast is so big? Why comedy so big at the moment? Because the gap between public and private discourse has never been wider. And we both, we're both living in that space.

We go, yeah, I have a real conversation with someone. Great. And the, you know, the canceling thing is great. But really, what happens? I mean, you could, you can recalibrate it and just call it free publicity. Like people are talking about you.

Well, great. Okay. There's this thing called the eraser test, which one of my guests talked to me about before, Morgordat, where he said, if you could go back and he asked, I think he asked, or there was a study done, where they asked people if they could go back in time and erase their most difficult moment, would you press the button and erase it? And like, these are like really traumatic events. About 95% of people said they wouldn't.

When you think about your almost traumatic moments, they've sort of being canceled or something like that. The best advice I got. Actually, the last time I got canceled, I found a friend of mine who's been canceled. And he said, you've only got to, you've only got to answer one question. Who's Jimmy Carr? Anyone, no, who's Jimmy Carr? Well, I'm, AG standup comedian. Okay. Fine then. You haven't got a problem. It's great.

And then another friend of mine just went, well, you need to just right size this. And I'm like, what? What? You went, you've got to right size it. She said, what's happened here? You told a joke and some people didn't like it. Yeah, that's what happened. Didn't seem like that big a deal when you put a lie back. And yet in the moment, sometimes it feels catastrophic. But those hard times, you know, you wouldn't erase the hard times because again, I would say.

And it's a, it's a, it can't have an easy life in a great character. And what they're saying there by not erasing that moment is, I'll keep my character, thanks. Anxiety. We talked about this last time. Anxiety is, it's a very interesting thing. I mean, my kind of original thought on an anxiety was the, it's the flip side of creativity. So you have a mind that is worrying. And that's given me every gift I've ever received, right?

The ability to write jokes and to be funny, whatever, is from that. I can't turn it off mind. And sometimes that foreign the morning when you've got nothing to do, that mind is still worrying. So you get involved in counterfactuals. You start to think of all the other things that could have happened, that haven't happened in life. And, you know, people are not worried about falling off a cliff. They're worried about jumping. They're mad just within all of us of what could happen.

And the worst case scenario in these terrible things. And you allow that to get ahead of you. I think the cure for it, for me at the moment, how managing my anxiety is giving myself more to do. Because I think anxiety, you're trying to solve a problem in the future now. And you can't. Because there's no problem in the now. The problem is in the future. So you're kind of ahead there, trying to, trying to figure out something. Because there's a demand for problem solving in the moment.

And you don't have a problem. You have that thing of like, people don't get to press when they go to the gym. If you're in the gym, you can't be anxious while you're working out. Because you have an immediate problem. I've got to lift this damn thing off my chest. You've got an immediate thing to deal with. You're in that moment. So it's hard to be anxious. Because you've got something to do right now. So give yourself something to do right now.

If you're suffering with anxiety, I don't let your mind drift into the future. I suppose it's quite buddhist in a way. Is your anxiety triggered by anything? Or is it just noise in the background? I don't think it is. I think there's an illusion that when you feel anxiety, it's about this thing. I think actually you've just got a level of anxiety and you will.

So if I've got nothing to worry about, career wise or show wise, or I'm not currently being cancelled, you might worry about the environment or you worry about your kids or you worry about, you know, you'll worry about something else. So I think you just, it just, it attaches on to whatever's front of mind and you logically go, what's anxiety about this? It isn't. It's just anxiety. Do you think people know who you are? Truly. You know, I met with a CIA agent a couple of weeks ago and he said,

we have three lives. We have our secret life. We have our private life and then we have our public life. Public life is, you know, the guy in the suit on camera. Your private life might be what your wife knows. But then maybe your secret life is who you are when there's like absolutely nobody there in your mind and in your own space. Do you think people know who you are? I think so. I think actually weirdly, this podcast is quite important in that.

You know, going on this, going on Joe Rogan, going on Modern Wisdom and talking as myself is very exposing. I'm writing the book before and after which is kind of a autobiography, but also a bit self-helpy. He's very much authentically who I am. So I think reading the book, listening to this, this is kind of what it would be like if we knew each other if we were having lunch you know, for the listeners, it's like this is kind of what I'm like.

And then I've got an ability to be funny on stage, which is another side of me. So I think that's like, it's not, it's not inauthentic what I do on stage. It's just like that's who I am in front of 3,000 people that have all paid 30 pounds to be entertained. Here we go. What's the side of you that your wife might know, but we don't? This. This is, yeah, you know, you're slightly more, I think on this, it's very much you take down the, it's not like doing a TV show to publicize something.

So if you go on, you know, Graham, you're very much like, okay, well, I've got three anecdotes and I'll get them out and I'll try and get four laughs. And then I'll try and sniper in on the other guests and be funny. And it's a, it's very performative. Whereas this is performative in a slightly different way, where you're kind of going, well, this is kind of what I think about the world and this is, this is what's like inside my head.

And it's quite, I don't know, I suppose when you step back from it, it's kind of, okay, well, a lot of self-help, a lot of, I guess therapy, you know, that's what I'm like. Since we spoke last time, is there anything you thought then that you no longer believe? I'm interested, I'm asking that question because my favourite question, what was the last thing you changed your mind about? I think I've changed my mind about environmentalism a little bit.

I think I'm, I absolutely acknowledge the problem. And I think the solution is just there. I think it's, I think it's splitting me out. I think we should all be, I think Nukula is kind of the, is the future. That's what we should be investing in. That's, we've got on the issue that we have a system that is full of politicians and we haven't got statesmen. We need longer terms. Longer terms. We need longer terms because we need people to make decisions like everything's about,

about rewards, right? So what do we reward? It's on a five year cycle. So no one's ever going to invest in Nukula because it's going to take 20 years to pay off. But they should be rewarded for that. Somehow we need to find a way to reward politicians for what they did 20 years ago. Because if we do that, it's, there's a better future, right? And I don't know if Britain doing it makes any difference. Like people often say, well, if Britain does it, it doesn't make

any difference because China's not going to do it or India's not going to do it. But you go, well, actually, if we did it, if we did something radical and went all nuclear, it'd been incredible examples to set to the rest of the world. Here's what I do. Here's my, do you want to hear my pitch? Here's my political pitch, right? Nuclear submarines have been testing this for 50 years. They're perfectly safe, right? People are going to live in a nuclear

sub next to the reactor. They're fine, right? So we've got one of those. There's no, not in my back yard. We put it in everyone's back yard. There's a nuclear reactor like a submarine in every city. Berrier have a small power unit in every city and town in Britain, okay? And then it's quite expensive. So you pay your fuel bill. And in 20 years time, we don't worry about COP 23. We burn all the fossil fuels we want for 20 years. And then in one day, we go totally green, right? No more

fossil fuels. Well, a little bit for fertilizers and stuff, but no more, essentially. And then fuel over the next 10 years, power becomes free. So we say to businesses around the world, do you want to set up a business in Britain? It's quite expensive to employ people, but energy's free. Do you think we live in a world where energy will be a value in 20 years time? Is it going to be the thing? Yes. So you say to your Amazon's and your Google's,

do you want to set up the place here? Yeah, great. If I rule the world, that's what I would do. Trump's probably going to come back into power, isn't he? For the likes of things. Biden's not, doesn't seem to be very compelling to people, calling to some of the polls. I mean, a week is a long time in politics. Who knows? Who knows what will happen? I think America will be fine, regardless. America is geographically, economically. It's a net exporter of fuel and of food.

It's got incredible neighbors in Canada and Mexico. It is, it's going to have the most incredible 20 years, regardless of who gets in. They're going to double their industrial base in the next 20 years because everything that was globalized is becoming more in sealer, which isn't necessarily good for the world, but very good for America. America can afford to have

a terrible political system because it is so blessed. They're going to earn much of the AI race as well, all the big AI companies seem to be based in America and that feels like that's going to really. I'm not worried about AI. AI is a covers band. It's artificial intelligence. It's not artificial consciousness. So if you tell it to write a joke, it can spit back stuff that you've already written and reorder it slightly, but don't worry about it. But if you imagine the Beatles aren't

worried about the bootleg Beacles. But if you imagine it's even a 20% rate of improvement every year, it's only going to take, and that compound. So you're going to take us five or ten years before there's a fucking AI that can crack a joke really, really fucking well. And an original joke. I don't know whether it's going to be original. I think there is something about. I mean, I don't know. Genius is an overused term. So there's two types of genius. There's innate

actual genius. There's bark, bay hoven, or whatever. Genius. And then there's hyper-accelerated rationality. And people talk about comedy genius and think, that's what they're talking about. Hyper-accelerated rationality. And I think AI is a long way from either of them, like, of coming up, generating something that's genuinely original. No, it's a covers band. It can go, well, that's the genre. And I can do something that's a bit similar.

But there's something about human creativity that I don't think it's getting close to. And maybe I'm being naive, but I think it'll be an incredible thing for the world, because I think new jobs will come along. This wasn't a job 10 years ago, right? Being a podcaster. Because I'm going to do sort of a long radio show, but it's an individual thing. You'd have to explain it. You know, it's things change. And it's only when you sort of look back, you go, oh, wow,

that's interesting. The biggest TV channel in the world is YouTube, and no one noticed. The BBC were battling with ITV about who's going to get the higher ratings on a Saturday night, and YouTube stole their lunch, because they weren't paying attention. Is that not AI? Well, it's the world, it's the world, progressives, and things move on.

And it's always been fine. I think people worrying about AI, it really strikes me. It's the people going, well, these, we've got to smash up these cotton-making machines, because this is, this is, this can't happen. There'll be no new jobs. There'll just be different jobs. I read a book called The Innovators, Dilemma, and it really changed my mind on a few things. They go back through history, and they look at all of the big steps forward in innovation,

and they basically categorize two types of innovation. I'll call it the upward opportunity, in the downward opportunity. So if you're selling horses back in the 1880s, the upward opportunity is the thing that all your customers are asking for. It is the thing that you know how to do. It is the thing that you have your supply chain set up to deliver on, which is faster and better horses. You know, you can imagine the meeting that you're the CEO of a horse company, I come, and I go

listen, boss, got an idea, they go, what is that? I go, faster horses, you go, people ask in front, I go, yeah, do we know how to do it? Yeah. Do we have a customer bit? Yeah. Let's do that then. Then another guy comes in and says, Jimmy, I've got an idea. Cars, are they better? No. You have to walk in front of it with a red flag, and it goes 10 miles an hour. Do we know how to do it? No. Is anyone asking for it? No one. None of our customers have asked for a horse.

Yeah. That is the downward opportunity and throughout history, the incumbents always ignore the downward opportunity because they're incentives, as you said. Their incentives are set up to pursue what we call the sustaining innovation. Right. We're obvious thing in front of them. Become a better comedian or become a better podcaster. Get another camera. The downward opportunity, I ask myself, what is the downward opportunity in podcasting? You should ask comedians.

comedians got an interesting way of thinking. I think we're very similar to detectives because we think backwards. Most people think about what's next. I am sure what you're talking about there. What's next? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? And we go, well, this is the state of affairs. How did this happen? It's the same as it's like being Sherlock Holmes. You go, how the hell did that? You're a reverse engineering a lot of the time. It's very interesting that this

is this may yet be a business podcast. I think I honestly think with the right amount of work, if you really put yourself into this, I genuinely think you can occasionally talk about business. I try to. I'm trying to weave it where I can. But that's interesting. The podcast thing of going no one saw podcast coming. No, but like this. And yet what's missing from our lives? What's missing?

What's the nature of balls of vacuum? Well, people aren't having conversations. When you look around the world, all those people that live to 100, all of those zones, and people go, oh, yeah, they eat loads of olive oil and fish. Maybe that's the answer. No, it isn't. They eat with other people. They have a conversation. They're part of a community. That's the difference. They've got something to live for. The olive oil isn't making any fucking difference. The connection to

other human beings is what are you doing here? You're connecting to people. You're having a conversation. So people are eavesdropping on a conversation. But in their heads, they're having a conversation. And they're with the stuff we're talking about. They're relating to their lives. Great. Nobody was asking for this, though. Nobody was saying, you know what, I want three hours of Jimmy Carr talking about life. No one was like demanding that in the like BBC. You know someone

rolling their eyes as I listen to this. Yeah, I'm turning off. But in the industry, they probably thought people want bigger TVs and thinner TVs. That's what they want. They want to watch the BBC on a thinner, bigger television. So we're going to deliver up to them. Whereas the damel opportunity was, in fact, they wanted connection. They wanted it to be longer form. They didn't want loads of ads every six seconds inside of it. Is this not the great sort of, if you're listening

to this and you're thinking, right, what am I going to do? It's like, it's not like someone has spotted the gap in the market. You could be the person. You know, and it's that thing of like, do what you do authentically. I always think like Joe Rogan's a really interesting example of that. Of someone that's entirely authentic. What did you talk about? Comedy and MMA and life and it's slightly kind of, you know, philosophy, stuff that he's interested. He's exactly the same guy he

was 20 years in the comedy store. 20 years ago in the comedy store backstage chatting. He's exactly that guy, totally authentic. A bit of people just said, yeah, great. I'll listen to that all day. You're exactly who you are. I mean, I love the idea that you think there's still a bit of you that thinks this is a business podcast. It's not, it's not you have a thing where you love stories

and you love chatting to people and you love learning. And that's what it is. This is just, it's the, this should be called the education of Stephen Butler. Well, I, the reason I think this is a business podcast is because of what I said. I think business is mental. Like, this is called the diary of a CEO, right? What would you find in the

diary of a CEO? You wouldn't find fucking forecasts and PNLs, would you? You'd find problems with his wife and you'd find that he's having anxiety attacks and you'd find that he's, doesn't know what the fuck you're doing. So the whole point of this was to go into the diary of a CEO, the things you, that's not business. That's the rest of his life. This is about life. I mean, I love it. I actually love it. I'm breaking your balls, but it's like, it's, it's, it's,

it's great the way that it's kind of developed, I think. Yeah, it's been, led by, as you say, curiosity, I get people all the time will say, Steve, we want the fucking CEOs back. We want them to listen to the business people or whatever. And I just go, I can't do that for a decade. What I can do for a decade is follow my curiosity. I could do that for the next 30, 40 years. And at some point, I'm going to care about a Zempec and I cared about

the psychedelics. And so that's what I'm going to talk about. And if you don't like it, then there are three other million other options. Yeah. I think that thing about that's, going with your gut is going to be the way to go. Because if you like to show, and if you're having interesting conversations, I think the listener will, will go with that. And if you try and give them what they wanted, I think again, it's the, it's the exactly that thing of going. We need better faster horses.

Not a car. And you're going, well, you need a car. Because whatever this is in 10 years time, it's going to be different, right? It's going to be something else. I'll be thinking about a difference of problems. And I'll be speaking to parental psychologists about what's the fact, doing my kids and stuff. Yeah. But Rogan was the bloop. I have to say it. And I think of the end of it. I don't think he replied. But I just said to him one day that the blueprint he said about

authenticity and following whatever it is you're interested in has helped me so much. Because there's more pressure to change when there's more people watching. And they can, I've seen petitions and I've seen little movements on LinkedIn trying to get me to have more of these kind of people on. The single biggest request I have on this podcast is to quote interview normal people. Better at the start of their journey. That's the quote. That's what they say to me.

And I go, well, if you didn't see Steven at 18, not a lot to talk about. So it really be them interviewing me maybe. That tends to what happens. Who would be the student in that situation. But that's the most popular request I get. It's to go and interview quote and quote normal people. So, yeah. Ignoring that, I mean, as you must have been able to have to ignore the external pressure of changing or telling a certain type of joke or being a certain

type of person. No, I think the audience, so for me, because of that immediate feedback loop, they do tell me what they find funny. And that kind of leads you down a road of going, well, that's interesting. People want to hear this. I think the reason people are drawn to my comedy is partly because there's not a lot of censorship in our society. There's quite a lot of self-censorship. So people aren't speaking freely in the office or even at home. They're not saying what they really

think. If you notice this thing, opinion polls don't seem as accurate as they once were. And that's because people don't feel like they don't vote in the same way as they express themselves in the world. So they come and see me live. And there's no filter. And this guy's saying whatever he wants. This guy doesn't seem to give a fuck. Very cathartic. If you're spending your days going, well, I know what the right thing to say is. So I'll say the right thing. If you want to see who has

power in a society, who can't you criticize? And making jokes and making light of all of that stuff is powerful because it's about free speech and it's about the Overton window. That Overton window of what isn't what isn't acceptable to speak about. So there's an Overton window in politics of what isn't acceptable policy. And then there's an Overton window of what isn't acceptable to talk about in polite society. And I think comedy has a really valuable role in moving that Overton

window in what what people can discuss, what people can talk about. But always very interested in like occasionally it happens where you'll overhear the audience leaving a comedy show and have such great conversations. It's really interesting how it light just taps into they just feel a bit freer and looser because they've listened to someone on stage being very loose and they're not buttoned down. They're not trying to self-sensor or say the right thing. Self-expression and expression

generally has just been on such a journey. Like you know this whole idea of workism and what you can in Kansas. I mean it really accelerated in the last 10 years to the point that is it's quite you know it's quite if I look back at comedy videos from 20 years ago they really seem to just be able to say whatever the fuck they wanted to say. And then when we do this era of like censorship and cancellation and there's no time in human history where the good guys have censored stuff.

It's never happened. So wherever that's coming from whether it's the right you know the Mary White House ban this filth which used to be the case or the left the idea that there's you know a hate speech or the idea that something can be words can be violence which is you know what people say when they've never experienced real violence I guess. There's such demand for violence we had to co-opt words into it but the idea of going this you're trying to censor stuff is

is a bad idea. Free speech is a very good idea because those thoughts don't go away. If people don't express themselves they just get they get suppressed and actually just speaking freely about stuff

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product tour back to the episode. If you're a podcaster would you have anyone on the podcast would there be any limits you would say I've something I think about a lot where are my limits because I get a lot of messages saying would you have this person on would you speak to Trump would you speak

to Vladimir Putin would you speak to a you know yeah I mean I think I think you're I think you have to speak to everyone I think the idea of going that there's there's people that are beyond the pal people have got like there's people with bad ideas right I don't know if there's that many bad

people but there's bad incentives and people that follow them and talking to everyone seems incredibly valuable to me and the idea that you go yeah that's how life moves forward you know there's you know you want to be a Marxist it's a dialectic of going well this person I don't agree with

and you have the conversation and with an open mind and an open heart and maybe you change their mind and how do you move the conversation forward I mean the great mystery for me in politics is the idea that people talk about um hypocrites in politics changing their mind about things

of course he changed his mind the facts have changed that the world's changed you move on Obama ran on an anti gay marriage ticket but the world moves on and things progress and you know I'm you know a progressive but I think the idea of not listening to people is

pleasing you know do you think about why Hillary lost the election right it was that deplorables thing remember when she talked about the deplorables and the people you can't talk to those people and it was like no there's a there's just working class people and they've got they've

got worries and you need to talk to them about those worries you can't just write them all off and go well they're despicable people you know that urban elite kind of thing you've got to bring them in have the conversation you you'll get someone with it you you know you have to listen

to that you have to listen to all the different sides of the argument otherwise we're entrenched we're just in these little you know and it's it's that thing of like it it becomes identity you know which party that you follow crazy people don't like to follow people that they disagree

with online in particular because that's creating cognitive dissonance isn't it it's the constant confrontation of a set of ideas that threaten or challenge you in some way so in rather just create this little echo chamber of individuals that will confirm my set my set of existing beliefs

and that's what you know one of the things I I made the decision to do about two three years ago was just to follow everyone that I um viscerally sort of repulsed by should I say yeah and if you had them on the show if you had people on the show that you go why don't really agree with what

they say but yes yeah it's it's I feel like it was great to be back yeah yeah that's interesting I think that's really I think that's really valuable I think that's a more interesting conversation as well because if you're just going to not along with someone and go well yeah it's talking

sense that's great it's like you know and I think to have those kind of difficult conversations it's really a valuable thing one thing you said which surprised me because it didn't come at all up at all in our previous conversation at all and even in my prior research was you said that you

feel like you have a low level eating disorder yeah I think I'm very very conscious of my weight and my appearance and I think that's maybe uh and that eating disorder is a very they're very very serious things and I'm not um I'm not really in that category but I'm very aware of it

like as a as a man as well I was chatting to Chris Williamson are about this on uh modern wisdom I think I think he was like quoting the stat of saying men's uh body just more fear overtakes women's I think in the next year in terms of kind of young men looking at Instagram wanting to

look a certain way and presenting themselves a certain way I think there there is kind of an issue around it I think that weird thing about like I thought a bit of work done you know and put my teeth done on my hair done and I think there is kind of a there's something about being on screen all the

time that you get very conscious of kind of uh and maybe it's slightly a control thing have you always had that um was it developed I think it's kind I think it's slightly developed through sort of you know I think if I wasn't on TV or Netflix or whatever I think you probably wouldn't be as aware

of how you how you present yourself um so that it's it's it's it's slightly odd I think slightly odd relationship with I mean I I've kind of a theory around um around drugs right drugs and alcohol so I think marijuana when you think about it like weed uh is people are very carefree about

oh that's just a bit of weed fine but think about what it is right it's not a performance enhancing drug it's a performance inhibiting drug right it takes away your ambition and agency and it just makes you very chilled and relaxed and I don't think that's appropriate for men in their 20s or

teenagers right actually what you want is the performance and asking and I I think what we should be still promoting is almost like prohibition I mean I did it kind of organic I found comedy and I gave up drinking for 12 years I didn't touch a drop and that was mainly because of lifestyle

because I was driving to gigs and driving back and then I didn't want to hang over the next day because I wanted to and everyone was trying to buy you drinks all the time and it just felt like it was like enough already I'm gonna be I'm gonna be straight edge which always like the term

straight edge it's a punk rock term for being T total straight edge it's cooler right I like the idea of going right I'm gonna control that I mean I drink a little bit now kind of socially but not in a problem way but giving up was quite an important thing because it was also

the focus that it gives you so don't know I kind of I'm slightly slightly anti drugs for young people I slightly think many in their 50s and 60s that work a hollix maybe some marijuana wouldn't be a bad idea but it's the it's the idea of kind of young people taking it and not having and it's

what does it take from you takes away that kind of that that raw ambition and that's as such a sort of valuable thing in those years it's almost like that advantage the young people can't see the advantage that they have they see the the the the wealth and the you know the

financial security of being 50 and when you're 20 what you don't recognize is the energy that you have when you're 20 that incredible advantage you have over everyone else in the office in that you're just you you're just full of energy your 20 years older than me exactly what advice would

you give to me that's unobvious as a 31 year old your 50 what I believe yeah what advice would you give to me that's would be probably quite unobvious to me at my age about the next sort of 20 years of my life stay out the sun stay out the sun sun damages is 90% of aging stay out the sun

honestly you're so unfortunate plastic surgeon the the I don't know I mean I think that you know I don't know if you could be in a better place right now than you are but you can certainly give yourself gifts when you're 50 what gifts do you want to give yourself let's talk about what gifts

you would like to receive on your 51st birthday from you interesting what would you like to have I'd like to be physically fit so done no problem at all you will need to go to the gym three times a week and 80% of it is going to be diet no exercise okay so you're going to need to do that

but no problem at all I'm the genie you got it what else would you like I would like a happy healthy family and relationship with my partner I'd like to be married and I'd like her to be happy and I'd like my kids to be happy okay that's great I don't think you get to call that

I think you get to be happy and you're in charge of that and their happiness is maybe a byproduct of that but you need I my perception would be you need the a locus of control to be within you you could be happy make yourself happy and that's good for the people around you but I don't

think someone else's happiness can be your responsibility I think you can set up all the conditions and you can you can make it as easy as you can but you know that's that's that's a that's a lot but but I get the idea of it the how many kids four four Jesus Christ all right so four kids

so you're in minivan territory already you can't even drive a regular car this is crazy this is madness four kids are one of each one of each share it's a modern world I love that all right what else would you what else would you want in 20 years time I'd like to still be doing a business

podcast you're not doing a business podcast now very little business in this no one ever talks about supply and demand I think yeah the the that's stoic thing of like you still doing this in 20 years time what a journey that will be like think about the people that you will speak to

think about the things that you will learn think about the the road that you're on and and and actually if you're open to speaking to everyone then the the lines of communication are kept open and that's incredibly important in the modern world where people are in these

you know divided camps it's important what gifts were most important for you when you turned 50 that you either had or hadn't given yourself when you turned 50 you know you look around on your 50th birthday about the gifts that you either have or that you wish you had one of those things

I was in Australia last year on tour and I a fairly arbitrarily I mean I was always very good at trying new material and doing sort of warm-up gigs and I just went oh I'm gonna try something new I'm gonna do new shit at every show

I'm gonna try I'm gonna write jokes during the day and then I'll try them that night on every single show and a year later I've got a new show and it was so easy to put together because it was just like every night you're you're you're trying new new new new new and it forces you

into that space of writing more more more more and I feel like I'm getting better you know a year on you go I was yeah that was that was easy and it was just little and often how important is that that the routines you know the small things because I think there's kind of two camps of people

typically there's those that think sweating the small stuff matters and there's those that think sweating the small stuff is inconsequential and it's you know man but it seems that you know the people that I seem to sit here with that are really successful at what they do have a real

obsession with the detail I remember what I don't know if it's the small stuff I think it's the important stuff so I wouldn't sweat anything other than the joke writing and the performing on stage everything else it's all small stuff that's the important stuff and focusing on that like knowing

what's important I guess would be the first stage there but then yeah that's that seemed absolutely critical remember I sat here with Walte Reisach and who followed Elon Musk for two years and followed Steve Jobs for two years before Steve Jobs died both two business people he's not

connected though no one thinks it's his fault no no you're not casting any other no no I'm not saying he did it yeah I'm not saying he did it but he said something to me about how Steve Jobs would even make the circuit board inside the iPhone look beautiful and this came from Steve Jobs

father who who told him that he had to paint the back of the fence as well even though no one would ever see the back of the fence because it was covered but he said that truly great individuals care equally about the parts that are unseen you know the things you'll never see and I always

thought that's incredible that Steve Jobs would care so much about making the the circuit board inside this iPhone look beautiful and why is he doing that well is he doing that because he will know you know and I and that made me think about this concept of your self-story we have you

said reputation Ali which is the external story of what people think of you but everything we do writes this self-story about who I'm up like when you leave this I love this concept the idea that we are a story we tell ourselves yeah and everything I'm doing is telling me who I am so Chris

you bank junior that the son of the famous boxer great boxer himself says that he if he's on a treadmill and he gets cramp in his leg like really painful cramp in his leg no one's in the gym but he told himself he was going to do 20 kilometers he says I I will physically limp the last

to 8k yeah even though no one's there of course well I of course because you you you you are who you who you who you are it like that's that how you do anything is how you do everything so he's all in he's he's that guy great that's great that's a good it's a great story because you

go yes well of course if you say you're going to do it and then you're the kind of person that does the thing you say powerful right keep a little promise to yourself that's powerful that changes your sort of perception of self you can trust yourself a little bit more a lot of us pathologically

let ourselves down in small ways and don't really think those promises matter we break commitments to ourselves pathologically okay but but you can you can change that right but you can build that up a little bit and we'll see the results in 20 years time fit and healthy and you got a family

and kids and you're doing great you're still doing this it's great we'll see it I think you probably you can't beat yourself up over everything right you you have to choose where to suffer you have to choose what's the thing that matters to you and don't let yourself down on that so

maybe you're not going to do everything okay fine do you think that's what confidence is confidence and yeah confidence in yourself is just a combination and a culmination of the commitments you can't do yourself and what you proved to yourself about yourself I think that's a I haven't

thought about it like that but that seems like a very logical conclusion you know it's that thing but you want to give the world a refutable proof you are who you say you are well the world and yourself there's a mirror up as well are you who you say you are yeah well great that's a

lovely thing to be and to build it up in small ways I mean that's really talking about building character I'm going to make that promise to myself and then I'm going to I'm going to do it so you don't make bullshit promises to yourself you know news resolutions are not a good idea

because if you're going to let yourself down that's more damaging pick something that you can do pick something small last time we spoke you expressed an aspiration and ambition you had you say we I think we're talking about Dave Chappelle and you said you wanted to do longer form jokes

yeah yeah so there's there's some stuff in the new show so there's like 20 minutes on being a dad that I think's really funny and I wanted it to fit within like persona as well because a lot of people sort of become fathers and they get a bit sentimental and they lose some of their edge so

the stuff that I've got about being a father is brutal but it's funny it's funny it's a funny thing to kind of experience as well something kind of need to talk about who's your favorite comic of all time Chris Rock really Chris Rock by yeah Chris Rock I think the the I've had the great

pleasure of working with Chris as well and he's an extraordinary talent the the the rhythm and cadence and the points that he makes and the way that he sets up material the way that he delivers a bunch like that just everything about it from sort of a technical point of view I admire and I

love what he says I I just think he's he's he's just fucking hilarious and I see the work I see what he does I see the work that he does now he's he's been a legendary next level performer for 30 years and he's still working just as hard and you gotta love that what did you make of this lap

well I mean obviously it's just I mean it's there's no there's no there's no argument that's it's it's a he I was shocked you know it strikes me that Will Smith may be the greatest actor of his generation because he was pretending to be an

entirely different human being for the last 40 years and the mask slipped and we saw a yeah a different side and I think Chris really the extraordinary thing about that moment was Chris Rock got slapped in the face his level of composure was he was like a Hindu cow get slapped in the face

by a big dude right hard I just got slapped in the face that's going to be a huge TV moment he's the award he's to be admired incredible men you were on stage as well you know a couple of months after when Dave Chappelle was attacked

I actually saw you in the back I remember seeing you sort of come out and just you kind of looked a little bit like security but maybe not the most yeah me well security so when they've got rushed and he's very scary because you know it could have gone another way you know the guy had a knife

albeit a knife in a gun it was it was it was it was it kind of a fake gun that pressed a button on a knife came out it was a it was a yeah so it was it was it was it was a knife that identified as a gun maybe I don't know anyway so yeah I remember I was standing with Jeff Ross on the side of

the stage and then and then this this thing happened it was yeah it was crazy crazy scary had he guys asked me the person that ran out and was dumped out by like what he got the reason he got stomped out wasn't it wasn't a malice it was he wouldn't let go of the gun knife so the guy had

a gun what looked like a gun I mean it was a gun and he wouldn't let go of it and they I think there's a security guys broke his arm trying to get getting the getting the gun off him yeah but what are you gonna do let the guy have the gun like it say it's yeah it's very really a pretty

scary scary thing I try times changing in terms of violence towards comedians is it no I think they're isolated in Eddie Murphy had the best line on it Eddie Murphy said he said Will Smith when he slapped Chris Rock rang the Dylan Bell for crazy all the crazies came out for a couple of

couple of weeks the guy in Russia's um she pal it's not it's not a great situation I mean it's like it's it's a scary thing when you think you know friends getting rushed by someone with a knife and you sort of think of well what could have happened but he was fine and obviously you know

he was shaking in the moment but he was pretty pretty philosophical about it anyone ever attacked you on stage no I mean friends you I mean I've been I've been threatened a little bit but okay I'm part of a game I guess I mean it's like it's that weird thing of like when you there's a

routine in it I talk a little bit about being cancelled on the on the special and you talk about like what I'm gonna do next time because it's gonna happen again right so the next time I get cancelled I've got a plan here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna say I've rehearsed this I'm gonna

make a public statement on the day the new story breaks I'm gonna say I'm sorry and the people that are offended will say you don't really mean that apology and I'll say so you're saying I could say something and not mean it now you get it but it's that it's their jokes you can't go

around apologizing for jokes I'm exceptionally excited to sit down and watch your Netflix special natural bunker which came out on April 16th there's been a lot of conversation around it because I think a lot of people are acknowledging that you've adopted a slightly different style to the

past and everyone's excited to see this this newer Jimmy this this heavily iterated optimized version of Jimmy that's taken 51 years to produce and I always talk to people about our last conversation and you telling me that even you at the peak of the mountain in many

people's eyes are still trying to find small marginal gains and challenge yourself and come out of your comfort zone and I think that's exactly what you do in this special I've been fortunate enough to see some of the the jokes and the angles in the special and I think for some reason it

feels to me like society needs to have some of these conversations as well so what even though there is humor there underneath the the jokes you tell there's I think there's an underlying important message that's greeting society at the right moment I very much appreciate that

is that accurate is that an accurate assessment I think it is I think it's I it has it is different to the last special and it's got more of me in it and it's like I'm in a very privileged position where people you know some people listen to me and I have my audience I know

what my audience are so I can I can get a message in under the wire that other people can't really talk about and so that thing of going if I'm doing sex ed I do sex ed in my way and it's very funny but it's getting a message across the young men that I think's very valuable. I'm excited to listen specifically about the stuff about consent very very excited Jimmy we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest

not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. Oh well I've given this literally no thought so right okay I don't get to see it either which is funny people don't believe me when I say that okay what's the other got a question you have got a question that's been left for you the question that's been left for you is what would you tell your 20 year old self that you wish you knew and that would have positively impacted your life and helped you to avoid

unnecessary pain. I think I would have said enjoy yourself more. Try and be more present I think I was I think I was worried about the results and not the process at that age I think I was worried about what kind of degree I would get and working hard and I should have been worried about having more fun. What's telling you in hindsight that that's the important

thing you needed to hear at that point what was the symptom of not hearing that? I think it was I think there's a there's a weird thing in if you're in academia and you have that imposter syndrome and you feel like oh god what's what's I don't belong here I'm not right enough I need to work harder

that's valuable in one sense it makes you kind of work harder but actually you know I should have what's what's what's college for it's just for growing up be in the moment I'm what do you think the university I think university is a luxury item now I think the intrinsic value

of university is less important than the what it signals about you so I think a degree from Cambridge is a Louverton bag it's a luxury item that says I have this you can just get the reading list and read the books I'm not sure whether or the academia's you know I don't know I've got strong

views on academic because I was when I went to university it was free right it was very difficult to get in but it was free and I think we should bring that back I think if you're doing let's say stem right I say you're studying any stem subject universities should be free in the UK and if you

get a stem degree from anywhere else in the world it should come with a British passport attached come spend some time here great it's not a bad policy your kid turns to you one day and says daddy I'm I want to be a magician what do you say to your kid they want to be a magician or they

say that I want to be an MBA player let's do that one would you say to your kid wait go back become a magician I don't know I mean listen it's it's I suppose it's that thing of like follow your dreams if they're hiring Chris Rocksline isn't it yeah follow your passion if they're hiring if you

if you're good at that if you're I don't know if my kid winds up being seven four I'd be surprised but if he is then maybe then me and I maybe there's maybe there's a future in it but the yeah pick something that seems realistic to you have you got a bias about what you want your son

to do uh honestly I because we all have I would have a but I would have a bit of a bias I mean I don't know I don't know what jobs are going to be in 30 years time right you you want your kid to be happy and maybe maybe to have some sort of uh grounding in critical thinking and beyond

that good luck Jimmy thank you our first conversation really blew me away and it taught me something about actually about this podcast you're one of the real defining conversations I had that taught me that everyone is much more than the surface that you see and it's funny because when last time

when we recorded it was upstairs in my kitchen my previous kitchen and the team text me when you arrived and they said oh Jimmy Carls just arrived I think you arrived on your bicycle or something and they're like card card he's just cracked a joke about someone's mum downstairs and I thought oh

this is this is Jimmy Carls the Jimmy Carls he had nine out of ten cats and then we went upstairs and had that conversation and it just blew my mind it just absolutely blew my mind well this is the difficult second album how did I do oh fantastic oh great fantastic absolutely but no really blew it taught me that people are much more than than just the the mask that we were and we all wear a mask you know the person it's a get through life and we find it easier sometimes to wear the mask

than to confront who we actually are but in that conversation I feel like I got to meet the man behind the mask per se and I really like sharing that side of myself I really enjoy this I really enjoy the show I wish it every success thank you so much Jimmy thank you for everything and I highly

recommend everybody go and see natural born killer which is on Netflix right now I'm going to put the link to the Netflix special in the description below you are always one decision away from taking your business to the next level and a decision that's helped me to transform my

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