Guy, how many people have you interviewed in your life? I would say over 20,000. And you started a smash hit iconic show called How I Built This. Why? What's the mission behind that show? I wanted to give people access to the greatest entrepreneurs I could find in ways that they might not have access to them. And I wanted that wisdom and those stories to be available to anyone at any time for free forever. Give me an idea of the kinds and caliber of people that you've interviewed over those
20,000 interviews. Everything, everybody from rural sheepers and Afghanistan to soccer players in Europe, to celebrities in the United States, or leaders, entrepreneurs and founders of businesses, to ordinary man on the street conversations. I'm really curious. You know when we talk about building something, the seemingly impossible, is difficult part of building anything, seems to be going from zero to one. And you've
sat with people who have gone from having an idea to putting that idea in motion. And it's not a huge journey to travel, but it seems like the hardest journey to travel, because it requires so much of a shift in mindset. It requires the confrontation of fear and apparent danger. And there's something about these people that makes them decide that it's
better than not starting. Taking the action is better than not taking the action. Have you been able to figure out what that is in people and how we can cultivate it? There's several sort of the Venn diagram of founders coalesces around a few common traits that by the way, many of us have intuitively, naturally, or can develop, right? So curiosity is an obvious one. Just this desire to grow and to learn and to look around you and
to try and absorb the lessons around you. But the other ones are a little bit more hard-edged, like a fear of regret of not trying something. So many years ago, I interviewed a guy named Jim Cook. I've actually interviewed him recently again. He really kind of revolutionized the beer industry in the United States. Like the reason why Europeans drink American beer
today is because of Jim Cook. Like in the 80s, it was a joke, right? There was actually a famous Monty Python sketch where it's something about rather drink piss than American beer, something like that. Well, in the 80s, he kind of revived the beer industry in the US with the beer named Samuel Adams. And he really kind of supercharged what became this craft-brewing industry in the US, IPAs, and all these really interesting beers that to this day are some
of the greatest in the world. He started his business, Sam Adams, in his 30s. He was a consultant for Boston Consulting Group. He was making a good salary. He had a family. But there was something about his life that felt unfulfilled. And part of that was he wanted to build something on his own. He wanted it to be his. He didn't want to work for somebody else. And he felt that if he didn't try, if he just continued on at BCS, he would make a lot of money. He would make
millions of dollars. And he could have a very stable good life. But he felt like he would be unfulfilled if it wasn't his own thing that he had to try. So he took a risk. He left. But he felt that if he didn't take the risk, it would be dangerous. And he actually uses his paradigm, dangerous versus scary. It was really scary to leave his job at BCS. But it would be dangerous if he stayed because the danger would be that one day he'd get out of bed and he'd be
60 and he would regret not having tried. And I think that's a big factor for a lot of founders. This idea that they don't want to feel intense regret. And so they're willing to take the risk. Even though it might be catastrophic, the idea of building something, of owning something, of creating something yourself that is yours is a hugely powerful pull. And that's, it's like, you know, that's that magnetic field that they're all attracted to.
They're all kind of moving in that direction. I think many of us who are entrepreneurs or aspire to be entrepreneurs feel that magnetic pull. What role does self-belief play? And what is that? Because in your book, you talk about how it's not always the case that they have huge amount of confidence and knowledge is self-belief essential to get going. And from all the people you interviewed that are widely successful, did they have that self-believe or did they have something
else that got them over that first hurdle? It's interesting. Sometimes there are people who are born sort of, they have this kind of, this natural confidence. And you know people like that. You've met them, right? People that just seem to exude confidence and self-assurance. And I think those people are rare in general. Most healthy entrepreneurs experience self-doubt. It is a really natural and I think important and necessary trait. To be able to sort of
in your mind say, am I doing the right thing? Is this the right thing? Am I making a mistake? The difference is that while it's healthy to ask yourself those questions and to interrogate your decisions, because it's going to inevitably lead to better decisions and force you to justify things to yourself, you have to have a willingness to power through. That I think some people have instinctively, but there are other entrepreneurs who develop that skill over time. I'll give you an
example. One of my favorite stories that I've told on the show, it just happens to be the case that you know, out of the 500 interviews or so, I don't know how many, but we've had, you know, quite a few founders who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Okay, no, better known as the Mormon Church. It's not a term used anymore. The Church prefers to use the previous term I used. There is a very strong tradition of entrepreneurship in that community.
We just interviewed Jason Worsland, the founder of Therabadi, you know, the Theragon. He's also grew up in the Church. I always wondered what is it about these members of the Church and the connection to entrepreneurship? Virtually every young Mormon member of the Church at 18 goes in a mission. There's sent somewhere around the world with books of Mormon, with a suit, bicycles, and they go door to door to door to door to door in every country around the world,
preaching the book of Mormon. Now, 99 out of 100 houses that you knock your door on, you knock on their door, slam in your face. But one door will open, and after two years of having 99% of the door slam in your face, you understand that it doesn't matter. You're just going for that one door, and they come back to the United States and they've developed this incredibly thick skin.
They have withstood all of these nose for two years. And so when they go to start a business, whether it's codopaxi, David Smith, or JetBlue, David Neeleman, Joel Clark, Kodiak Kakes, or Jason Worsland, Therabadi, Theragon, they've heard no for so long on these missions. That starting a business seems like a piece of cake, because now they know that all they need to do is withstand those nose. And no happens to be the most important word that an entrepreneur will ever
hear. And I guess they also know how yes happens. Yeah. And I think that's like, as you were saying, I was thinking about a lot of young people will say to me, Steve, I've tried to get the job. I've tried to start the business. I sent 10 emails. Yeah. And they think they assumed that the 10 emails were the five emails to the job they wanted would be enough to get it. But in that case with the members of the Church of Latter-day Saints, they know that no comes anywhere between one in 100.
No, it's the default. Yeah. You expect no. Sorry, they know that yes comes anywhere between one and 100. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a great story that I came across recently. And it's it was an interview I did with a guy named Isaac Larian. Isaac is the owner of the largest privately owned toy company in North America called MGA. And in the year 2000, he launched a doll called the Bratz doll, BRATZZ. And that doll was the first doll to challenge Barbie. Barbie had
like 90% market share in 2000. And within three years, Barbie's market share went down like 30%. Bratz became a three billion dollar year brand. It's an amazing story. Now fat and now rewind back to the early 70s. He comes to the United States from Iran penniless to 300 bucks in his pocket, knowinglish to Los Angeles. He came here to Los Angeles where we're talking. And he worked as a waiter. Eventually, he started to import cheap consumer electronics from Japan in the early 80s
and sell them to independent electronic stores. So what he would do is he'd go to Japan with a suitcase. He'd buy Sony Walkman. Stuff his suitcase with Sony Walkman, come back to LA and sell them for a 40% markup to consumer electronics stores. Eventually, he got successful enough that he could bring in shipping containers full of these Walkman, right? By 1985, 86, he was doing four, $5 million a year in revenue. So he had a significant business importing Japanese consumer electronics
and selling them locally in the US. He's on a trip to Japan in 1986. And he sees children playing these things called Game and Watch. It was a rectangular game with an LED screen and two buttons and it was a craze all over Japan. And he said to himself, I got to sell these in the US. So he gets on trying to Kyoto. It takes a bullet train to Kyoto, which is where Nintendo's headquarters are. He goes to Nintendo headquarters and he asks the receptionist to meet with the head of export.
And she looks at him and she says, sorry, because name is Mr. Kobayashi. I don't remember the exact name, but she said he's not available. You have to book an appointment with him three, four months in advance. Isaac says, look, I'm here in Kyoto just for the day. Can I just five minutes, have five minutes with him? She said impossible. So he says, now remember, he's got a successful business, five, six million dollar business. He says, I will wait here in the reception when he
comes out for lunch. Can you point him out? Just says, I'm sorry, I can't do that. He sits down in the reception and he waits. And he waits, and he waits. And at five p.m., a man walks out of the elevator. He whispers something to the receptionist. He's been there for six hours, Isaac. The man walks up to Isaac and says, may help you, sir. He says, my name is Isaac Larian. I understand you're in charge of export. He says, I am. He said, I would like to
get the license to export the game and watch. He said, impossible. We're not interested. And who are you? And you need to make an appointment months in advance. And he said, well, can we just have a quick chat? And he said, no, can I get your business card, at least? He hands him his business card. Isaac goes back to the United States with this guy's business card. He goes to his bank and asks for a million dollar line of credit in the name of
this guy. We'll call him Kobayashi. Sends him a tellax because there's no email back then. With a million dollar line of credit and it calls, calls him up as a business card. He says, did you receive my line of credit letter? And the man says, yes, I told you, Mr. Larian, we're not interested in working with you. We're not interested in exporting these toys. He said, what if I pay all cash? He said, we're not interested. He calls them again a few days later.
He says, I want to order a million dollars worth of these. He said, we're not interested. He said, please, the guy in Japan says, we're not going to change these into English for you. He says, don't worry, send them to me in Japanese with the instructions. I'll repackage them. Exhausted, the guy finally says fine, one off. In year one, they saw $25 million worth of these game watches in the US. You're $250 million, you're $375 million. I said to Isaac Larian, you walked into
Nintendo. You sat there. Your dignity was challenged. Your self-worth was challenged. Your ego was challenged. They said, no, you repeatedly. He said, ego, dignity, self-worth, all that stuff is nonsense. Pride. If that's what you care about, you will never succeed. The minute somebody says no to you is the minute the negotiation begins. That's how I run my business. That's how I have become the entrepreneur. He's a multi-billionaire today. An amazing example of why that word no
is so powerful. Some people naturally can withstand it. Some people have to develop the skill that it takes, like those Mormon missionaries, to hear no hundreds, thousands of times before they have that thick skin and they can break through. So interesting. So powerful and a wonderful reframing of what that movement of rejection means that everyone will go through. When I think about these other entrepreneurs I've spoken to who end up getting to where he got to,
some of them have to take what I call no man's land where they start something. It appears that no one cares. They do that thing for five years, sometimes 10 years. It doesn't appear that anybody cares. Then the world conspires or luck shows up or timing happens and that person has left off. That's also a sort of similar part. Have you seen that and any of the people you've
interviewed in the stories you've seen? What is the driving force that pushes someone through no man's land for a couple of years, three, four, five, six, seven years when it's not working, but they have the something to persist regardless? It's amazing because it does happen. Again, going back to this example of a Theragun, this guy Jason Worsland came to Los Angeles to become a chiropractor. It was a difficult time in his life. He had his marriage to broken up. He had two small children.
It was very painful for him to leave Salt Lake City, Utah to come to Los Angeles to study to become a chiropractor. Eventually he got in a very, very bad motorcycle accident and was badly injured. He was a chiropractor. He knew and understood what was going on inside his body. One night, the pain was so severe that he decided to take a jigsaw. It's a saw that you used to carve wood. He took the blade and he bent it and he taped it up with duct tape. He thought, what if I just
try this on my muscles and he put it on his muscle? He started to pulse on his muscle and it actually felt pretty good. It actually, that percussive feeling started to give him relief. And over the next several months, he started to experiment with this on his patients. Until a guy to a point where people said, hey, you're on to something here. It would be another seven and a half years before Theragun was actually marketed
as a product. And during that entire time, he worked, he talked to everybody he could about it. But all they saw was a jigsaw would duct tape on it. They saw this weird product that just didn't seem like it was anything useful. But people were feeling real benefits from it. So he had on the one hand, he had people saying to him, this is weird and I don't see a home for it. On the other hand, he had patients, people he was working on, who were feeling real benefits from it,
real relief. And that was driving him. He knew that if he could figure out how to find a partner, how to get the money, he needed the money to launch this thing. Today, it's a multi-billion dollar business. But it took seven years. And during that seven year period, at any given time, because he was broke, he could have, you know, he could have just walked away and given up. But he had this feeling
and he had this feedback. But convinced him, there was something there. One thing you were known for is asking people about luck and the role that luck is played in their lives. Do you think these successful people believe in luck? What role, what role do you think luck is played in making them who they are? And what sort of trend have you seen? Because I believe you ask pretty much all of your guests have his question about luck at the very end of the interview. So you must, you must
have a big data set to think about. Luck plays a really important role. Luck is a weird word, because it's an intangible. And it's like a superstitious word. It's like, you know, fate, right? It's one of those words that I think in our modern age of science, a lot of people are resisting, resistant to that word, because we believe that we can engineer outcomes. That humans through the sheer force of will can engineer an outcome. And that might be true in
some cases. But you can't discount this notion of chance or fortune or luck. You know, you, like Canada, the US, or UK, when you were two or three years old, single mom, built a business, what are the chances of that happening? What are the chances of that happening? The chances of you being in a different circumstance are greater simply because of the statistical realities of that circumstance. But through sheer force of will and some luck, here you are.
You can't discount it. So how do you think about luck? Because I've often pondered this. I've thought, what the luck in my life, where should I, where do I find it? Is it in the me meeting my girlfriend through some sort of chance encounter or is luck much more of a fundamental thing in the case that you've described with me coming to the UK? Because it's true. If I hadn't come to the UK when I was two years old, then, and I was still in Botswana,
everything's different. My education's different. It might be very successful there too, but you're just done. It's probable that I wouldn't have had the freedoms in my life and the opportunities I've had if I was still in Ramotsua in Botswana. So as something that I didn't have any control over, because I was two, I look at that and go, that's a really fundamental luck, that I had parents that loved me. They moved me to this country where you have health care,
and all these amazing things. That is lucky. Like that is just huge fortune that I had no involvement in. Another kid could be moved to the UK at two years old, and they might be in prison now. And I'm trying to understand, you know, because it's funny, because when I get think really deeply about it, I go, maybe I'm responsible for nothing in my life, because it's all nature and nurture. It's my DNA, and it's the circumstances that that DNA
would put in. It's the environment that DNA was put in. So if you really think about it, maybe I'm responsible for nothing. You're responsible for a lot, and then you're not responsible for some as well. And here's the thing. You didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge, but you know a lot of kids who did go to Oxford or Cambridge, and they won't be a fraction as financially successful as you might be, or me, or anyone else that they know. And that's not because you're better than them,
or they're worse than you. It's not that at all. There are factors that we all, there are traits, there are circumstances that give everybody different powers. And having the right kind of personality is also luck. I mean, you might be the smartest, most educated person on the planet, but if you cannot withstand hearing no again and again, and you're trying to run a business,
you're not going to make it. If your ego is so enormous that it gets in the way, if your sense of dignity and pride is so important to you, that it's an immovable object, and you can't see past it, then it doesn't matter how intelligent you are. You can be a horrible student, a failing student, but have those traits, a personality that enables you to talk to anybody, open mind, kindness, friendliness, and you will be a hundred times more successful because that's the role of the
dice. Handed you those traits. You might not be book smart, but you got those other things. So there are all these factors that are intangible, and we all have bits and pieces of these things. It's just a matter of how we use them. You've interviewed Richard Branson, right? Mm-hmm. So I've, and one of the big things I took away from Richard was this sounds like a crazy thing to say, but he admitted how many things he's really not good at, and he admitted that he's
only really good at a couple of things. And this kind of bucks the trend of what you think when you think of successful people because you assume that especially CEOs and entrepreneurs are these sort of Swiss amazing Swiss army knives that are just good at everything. Everything they touch tons to gold. Richard taught me that you don't actually have to be good at that many things to be wildly successful. You just need to be good at a very narrow thing and then mitigate your
downsides through delegation. But that's what he's good at. That's his talent. Richard Branson's talent is in spotting talent in others and empowering them to go out and build and trusting them. I did a show for many years, Cole, wisdom from the top. You can still hear it. It's available on podcasts. And that show was a CEO show. I interviewed CEOs. And one of the CEOs I interviewed was a guy named Mark King who for years ran a D. This is North American operations. He ran
Taylor made, which is a golf brand and then Taco Bell. He was a CEO of Taco Bell. And Mark King made this exact point. He said, you know, I'm not the smartest guy in the room. I'm not the most intellectual. I'm not, you know, the most capable and competent when it comes to, you know, but I'm really good at finding the people with the answers. I don't have the answers most of the time. But I'm really good at finding the people who can get the answers. And that's, that is what a great
leader can do. CEO or founder entrepreneur. It's figuring out who can find the answers and inspiring them together around you. This is one of the things I've learned really late in my business career. I say really late, but I mean, I learned it probably at 28. And then for the last three years, it's been front of mind is that the game I'm playing as a founder and entrepreneur isn't how smart a mind, how hard do I work. It's about realizing that I'm a recruitment company.
Every business I start is a recruitment company. And I have this like really crazy analogy I sometimes use where I say to people, if you would highlight, if you would hide Elon Musk and got the best out of him. Right. So hide him and got the best out of him. You would have, you would be worth trillions theoretically. You would be if you'd hide Steve Jobs and got the best out of him,
you would have created an apple or something else or a Pixar. And if you think through that, though it's an extreme, largely impossible lens to think through, it illuminates the fact that much of the job of a founder is to find these exceptional people and get the best out of them. That is like the easiest path to value creation versus hoping that you can become the best at design and computer programming and all of these kinds of things. And honestly, in my life, it's been like
this really big fundamental reframe, which has caused me to reallocate my time. Where now, I'd say I spend 20 hours a week on recruitment. Whereas before, I might have spent half an hour. And this is why I asked you earlier about like people, Talon and how important that is to the game of building a company, which by definition is a group of people. And what you've seen in Great Founders there, have you ever spoken to Walter Isaacson? No. I think I used to follow Steve Jobs.
Of course, I know. I mean, it was brilliant, right? Yeah, I haven't. Yeah, he he talks a lot about how Steve Jobs was exceptional at that. And I remember him saying that before Steve Jobs died, he asked him in his backyard, what is the thing in your life that you've built? What is the product that you're most proud of and well to responded to team? Yeah. And I see that now in Great Entrepreneurs. I see how obsessed they are with culture and people.
Yes. I mean, as Peter Lynch says, culture, you know, beats strategy, eats strategy for breakfast, right? What is culture in your view? I think culture is, it's it's it's a it's many things. It's a common mission. It's a belief in a way of doing things, not in in the way that there's only one way, but a way, which could mean innovation, risk taking, but a shared belief in a common mission, right? And now a lot of people will say, well, all right, well, you know, what what about Coca-Cola?
What's the common mission there? You know, making a sugary soft drink, you know, a sugary beverage. And I would venture to say that if you talk to somebody who worked for a company like Coca-Cola, they would have probably a generally a common vision or a common view of why they do what they do. And it's not about a sugary soft drink or blah, blah, blah, blah. It's it's about being part of something bigger that has impact. Strong cultures are places where people feel like they're working
towards a common goal. We talked earlier on about a failure and people's relationship with failure. What about quitting? So failure is kind of like involuntary quitting. But quitting is like when you make you make the decision at some point in the journey that you need to pivot, this is not working. And it seems to me like in all the stories of the people that I've interviewed that have become successful, there has been several moments where they've made a decision to quit something,
which was either objectively not smart or terrifying. But I've almost come to learn that I think quitting is actually a skill that winners have managed to really sharpen. And obviously there's that phrase is now like quitting is for losers. But the more people I've interviewed, the more I've come to learn that quitting is a bit of a skill. And I think recognizing one to quit as well. You know, in my 20s, there were periods of time where I was a reporter at NPR at the time and there were
periods of time where I was frustrated, I want to quit. But I didn't, but really got close at times because I was covering the Iraq war in Afghanistan. I was in and out of war zones. I was scared. And how do I quit at that time? My life and career would have been totally different. I don't think it would have been as interesting. I think it's important that I waited to the right moment when I did quit and stopped working for a big organization and started my own business. I needed to have that
experience in my back pocket. I needed to feel like I was ready. Was it scary when I did it? When I left the safety of a big organization with insurance and a retirement plan and a guaranteed income, it was really scary. I had two kids. You know, my wife had a small salary. But I felt like I could take that risk because it was the right moment. There was something that told me it was the right moment. So I think it has to be a thought through process. And a lot of times people say to me,
should I quit and start my own business? And I almost always say, no, start your business slowly. So 99% with your job, 1% your business, then 5% your business, 95% your job, then 10% your business, then 90% your job until you get to a point where maybe you know, your entire evening and weekend is spent on your side project. And then it's time. Yeah, I followed a similar path in my life. And I've been quite a aggressive prolific quitter at the same time. It's like really
key moments. And I don't think I've ever really thought it through to a fault sometimes. But sometimes it's just been a feeling you have. You feel like you've reached the end of a flow chart of options. And for me, it's like, when I can't change it and it sucks, I have to quit. Or when the effort it would take to change it isn't worth the reward on offer. So I have to quit.
So I'm like, this flow chart I have in my head. And it's funny because throughout your story, you've, you've, throughout this conversation, you've cited these moments where someone was unfulfilled. You said that three or four times. Like they, they were unfulfilled. They knew they could do something. I've wondered what the role is in reaching rock bottom in your life as a catalyst for change. And I've actually said a few, asked a few people whether sometimes we just
need a bit more pain. Yeah. And it doesn't sound like a nice thing. But I think, I think that rock bottom or version of that is often a catalyst for change, right? It goes back to this idea framing. It's very hard. Failure or setbacks that are intense and severe are really hard. You know, my, but, but they are often necessary to trigger the change that needs to happen. I mean, I can tell you I will never forget the day was 2011. When I found I was still working as an
employee at National Public Radio. And I was told that I would not become the weekday host of all things considered. That was my dream. I started there as a 22 year old kid hoping that one day I'd be the main anchor. It's like the today program on BBC except in the evening. And that's all I want. I was a foreign correspondent and I covered 50 countries. I ticked all the boxes. I covered the Pentagon. I was the weekend anchor of the show. I did everything right by the book. Everything
I thought I had to do. But when it came down to making a decision, I was not the person that they wanted. And that was a low point. I really believed my career was over. And during that time, while I was looking and searching for a way to leave the news world because I was convinced I was finished, I had heard of an opportunity to create a show with the people who do TED docs. And I jumped at that opportunity. And that changed everything. That prompted me eventually to leave
to start my own business to start creating podcasts. I would never have been in the podcast world. Had I done that. I would have been on the radio doing news today. And without that low point, I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't have had the trigger to force me to find the next thing to find something different. And it that failure changed my life. Partners co founders, people, talent. What have you come to learn about the importance of finding a co founder, finding people
to go into business with as it relates to where you'll end up? A lot of I'll be 50 this year. And a lot of young people ask me younger people ask me, what's the best piece of advice you can give me in life? And my advice is always the same. Find a partner in life. Now, different from a business partner, which I'll get to in a moment, but I want to talk about a life partner. I believe that there is a partner for everybody, whether it's through Tinder or Hinge or Bumble or at a church or
at a bar or wherever. I believe there's a partner for everybody. And I believe that you are much more likely not just that I believe, but statistically it's true. You're much more likely to be successful if you have a partner to share and build a life with. That is the single most important thing you can do as you build a life. Now, in a business, I give the same advice. You can build a business as solo entrepreneur. And it's happened. And we have had many solo entrepreneurs on the show who've
built businesses by themselves. Well, with others helping, of course, but as the only founder, it's harder. Not because it's technically harder. It's emotionally harder. Because there's always going to be a point along the journey. And you've experienced it. And I've experienced it, where you say to yourself, I suck. I'm a fucking failure. And there's no one else to say to you, you're just feeling that today. You're just feeling that now. But tomorrow, you're not going to
feel that. And I, as your co-founder might feel that and you're going to need to tell me that I don't suck. That's the beauty and importance of having a co-founder because they are there on the journey with you. You are going to go into a crucible of fire when you start a business. You are going to hit moments of incredible stress near failure. And you're going to need somebody to be there in the trenches with you. Now, can you do it alone? Yes, you can. It's just harder. And the
success rates of co-founder businesses tends to be higher. And I mentioned this in my book that came out a few years ago, the legendary investor, Paul Graham, one of his criteria for investing in companies is co-founders. You have to have a co-founder because that is a stronger guarantor of success than a solo entrepreneur. What do you think people should be looking for when they're seeking a co-founder? Is it a personality thing? Is it a skill crossover? Are they looking for
someone similar themselves? Where do these co-founders come about? Where do they find them? So, question I always get, where do I find a co-founder? I think it's like dating. You know, and oftentimes co-founders fight each other. Sometimes they know each other in college or university or at school. They meet at a company. Sometimes they are looking for a co-founder. Sometimes they are looking for somebody to start a business with.
And there's no sort of formula that you can just kind of take every box. I think a lot of it is instinct. A lot of it is luck. You know, you might have two people with totally disparate skills. A technical co-founder and a marketing or operational co-founder. Or a fundraiser co-founder visionary and then sort of the operational side. And that might be perfect, but they might have a personality conflict. There might be a point where they have very diverging views.
And so, so much of it is about compatible personalities. It's like a marriage, by the way. You can marry somebody. You can love somebody, fall in love with somebody, and decide to marry somebody who is going to be more of a nurture. And you're maybe more of a disciplinarian when it comes to building a family or vice versa. Really compatible sort of family building skills. But if your personalities are incompatible, over time that marriage won't last. If you can't
grow together. Oftentimes co-founders, when they start a business, the most successful co-founders grow together too. You know, they start a business and then they grow it together. And it becomes stronger over time because they also grow together. They also learn mistakes together and figure out how to recover from those mistakes together. And in some cases, had a failed business before. We just had an episode of our show with the founders of a
breakfast show called Magic Spoon. These guys met at university, Greg Gabby, and they decided to start a company together, a protein bar company. Protein bars made out of crickets. It's called exo bars, exo. And it was an amazing idea because crickets are very nutritionally dense, high protein. Really good for the environment. Don't require a lot of water. You can turn them into a tasteless powder. And they really pursued this business for seven, eight years together.
And the business failed. For obvious reasons, which is, we're in our society in the United States, in the West, we're not yet ready to consume insects. There's a psychological barrier. So that could have been the end of their partnership. But they decided that they wanted to continue building something together because they believed in each other. And they moved on to a completely different product, also high in protein, but breakfast cereal.
High protein, no sugar, low on carbohydrate. So a keto kind of brand of breakfast cereal, which is now in 20,000 grocery stores in the United States and may even be in the UK. But that's an example of this part of a partnership where they failed together, but which allowed them to then build something that saw success. One of the other sort of central questions I get as it relates to that starting phase is,
people are currently working in a full-time job. They have an idea. But they're not sure how to pivot from the full-time job to the idea. Do they quit their job and then pursue the idea? Do they stay in their job and do it part? That's conundrum of how I go from idea to execution while I'm in a full-time job that I need to keep the lights on. You talk a little bit about this in your book as well. This idea of how you leave your comfort zone safely.
Yeah, of course it depends on the company. If you're coming up with a technology and you're working at Google, it's probably a better idea to quit first because otherwise Google is going to claim ownership over that idea. Many companies operate that way where they will argue that, well, if you work for the company and you have an idea, we own it. There are examples where you want to leave the company. But we have had so many examples on how I built this,
a founder who have kept their day job while pursuing this other idea. Because they had to pay their bills, they had to feed their families. We did story a couple years ago. This is actually a UK-based company. It's an amazing story. It's a story of a guy named Christian Tapan Nino, who is from Finland and his wife, Dorena, who's Scottish. They were both sort of educational consultants in the UK. They met at college and they had like an educational consultancy and they
had did various jobs. But Christian was a tinkerer and he dreamed of building something. He wasn't sure what it was. It happens that he was a home cook and he had a problem because this is where all great businesses start. I have a problem and maybe other people have that problem. And if lots of people have that problem, maybe I can solve it. His problem was he couldn't cook a pizza at home.
Why couldn't you cook a pizza at home? It has to be really hot. That's how you get those beautiful, crusty, neapolitan pizzas with the blackened crust because they cook for a minute at very high heat. Home ovens don't go that hot. What did he do? He started to pound some metal together and he built his own pizza oven that was wood fired. Well, today that pizza oven is Unni pizza ovens. One of the best selling pizza ovens, home pizza ovens in the world. They're between 300 and 500 bucks.
They're pretty affordable. They've got wood versions. They've got gas, propane gas. They've got an electric version. These guys kept their day jobs years into building this company because they didn't know if it was going to work or not. That's a billion dollar company. An example of somebody who really didn't had one foot in one place and one foot in the other place. Once this other thing was real, they felt that they could take the leap and go for it. Here's a thing.
A lot of people assume that entrepreneurs are these kamikazis. You know, Yolo, I'm going to jump out of an airplane, no parachute, and go for it. That's a myth, actually. There are some who are like that. But in general, most entrepreneurs calculate the risk. So they do take risks. But we all take risks every day. It's that they mitigate those risks by in different ways. So in the case of Unni, yes, I'm going to keep my day job for a little while and build this thing. And then
it is a risk to jump out of my day job and to pursue this full time. But it seems now I can see where this is heading. And that's the moment where you can take that leap. It's interesting as well because that story doesn't fit the mold because there was a lot of patience. And the patience seemed to come from someone that was really focused on actually
solving a problem versus getting rich. And someone that's focused on getting rich would have taken a much more kamikaze approach, I think, than someone who was really just focused on a problem they genuinely wanted to solve. And you said, oh, you ended up being the best pizza oven. And it's probably because he was so focused on, as I said, that he was so focused on solving the problem that he spent, I know, five, six, seven years, making the best pizza oven and worried later about
whether people would want it, whether they would make him rich from creating it. But typically, it's the other way around with entrepreneurs that come up to me when I'm in the gym or in the street, the focus in the priorities, clearly, how do I get rich? I'm thinking of selling this or I'm thinking of selling this. And I guess this brings up the question, like the role of passion and genuine curiosity in creating truly valuable things that well then makes you rich or remunerates you for.
So there's nothing wrong with wanting to be rich. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a lot of money. This is, it's an engine that powers innovation, right? I mean, incentives breathe innovation. And so there's a reason why, you know, the United States, for example, is, you know, one of the most, if not the most entrepreneurial society in modern history,
because there are incentives to grow your business. That being said, I would say about 95% of the people that I've interviewed founders of businesses, in virtually every case, are not primarily motivated by money. Of course, money is important. We all want a half financial security. But what they're motivated by is solving a problem they have or looking for an opportunity in the marketplace
to solve a problem that lots of other people have. In virtually every case, because what I do on how I built this is I mainly interview founders of consumer products, products that are either American sort of cultural icons or global brands. And in virtually every case, it is somebody who's trying to solve their own problem. We did a, I just story last year, a bed and amazing entrepreneur, named Monique Rodriguez. Her mom worked it up as an administrator at a hospital in the South
South Chicago. She grew up single mom. Her dad was in out of jail on drugs. And she managed to go to nursing school. So Monique became a nurse, which was a huge achievement raised by a single mom in a tough neighborhood in the South South Chicago. Becomes a nurse. And within a couple of years of doing that job was feeling unfulfilled, but she was always dreaming of something. And Monique had a problem, which was she could not find hair care products for her hair. She was black woman.
She didn't, she wasn't able to find really good consumer products on the shelves. So she started to experiment with essential oils. And eventually she started to mix essential oils and play around with her hair, avocado, and you know, judge about all these different things or ho ho, I can't, no, no, it's pronounced. And she started to make Instagram videos. You know, this is like early Instagram.
And she had it at the beginning, 10 followers and then 20 followers. And she would show people what she was doing with the oils and use it on her hair and show how it was improving her hair. Over time, people were writing in the comments, hey, where can I buy this stuff? Well, after a couple of years of people saying that to her, she still was a nurse. She asked herself
the same question, well, how can I, how can I do this? So with almost no money, she launched a brand called Myel Organics, which was hair care products for women with textured hair. Fast forward to 2023, she sold that business to Procter & Gamble for reportedly for half a billion dollars. This is a woman who started a hair care products company in her apartment in Indiana, she was in Indiana at the time with no experience in the industry, with no connections, but just a
passion to solve a problem she had. And that was the beginning of an empire. And that's a story that I see again and again, you can never ever substitute passion with a desire for money. Passion is always going to trump a desire for money. It eats desire for my to paraphrase Peter Lynch. Passion eats desire for money for lunch. What is breakfast? What is passion doing that
just a desire for money wouldn't do along that journey? So if we think about her in that apartment, if we take her and we drive her with passion and we see where she ends up, five hundred million dollars, and then we take her and we drive her with a desire for money and we see where she ends up. Why would she end up in different places? What are the steps? Yeah, I'm not sure she would end
up in different places. There's no question that money could be an engine and a motivator, but with passion and a belief in what in in the thing that you're building, having the ability to solve the problem for many, many people, if you're building something that just solves your problem,
it's not enough. That's not a business. That's a hobby. But if you build a product that solves a problem for millions of people or could potentially solve a problem for millions of people, and you have a passion to build it because it's solving your problem, that is going to drive you, that's going to motivate you to keep moving forward. Whereas if it's simply a profit motive and it doesn't land quickly, you're unlikely to keep with it. You're unlikely to have the patience.
You're going to move on and try something else, which is fine too. There's something in there in also the case of the pizza guy who made the pizza ruffins where because they're so passionate about it, they understand the problem so deeply that they're able to truly innovate. Whereas if I was trying to start a pizza ruffin business now, frankly, I've never experienced pizza ruffins before, never used one, never failed it, using one, never succeeded it, using one. So my information would
have to come from Google. It's one of the things that I see a lot in entrepreneurs is how they manage to think for themselves, the force that makes them think for themselves and not just accept the conventional way of doing things. Someone like Elon Musk is a prime example of a real first principle start from zero sort of a blank sheet of paper. Very hard to do because conventions like filling all of our brains, so very, very difficult to do, which there was some way of teaching that.
Yeah, I mean, it is hard to do, but I also think that part of the process and part of building something is a willingness, not a desire, not a hope, not the enjoyment of, but a willingness to experience failure. That's really hard. Elon Musk has experienced a lot of failure. I mean, put aside his quirks and I think challenging parts to him, there's no single person on the planet who I believe who's had
a bigger impact on reducing climate emissions. Say what you want to about him, but between solar power and cars that are emissions free, he has had a bigger impact on global climate emissions and virtually every any other individual on earth, which is quite a remarkable thing if you think about it, you know, because a lot of people really hate him. But at the same time, he's had a huge impact on the climate. He's also had a lot of failure. You know, we did the story of PayPal
on the show many years ago and told it in great detail. Max Levchin really was the creator of PayPal. He's now the founder of a firm and Max Levchin and Peter Teele started PayPal. Elon Musk at x.com. They merged into PayPal and they actually kicked Elon Musk out of the company. And Max Levchin tells the story about the day the board kicked him out as the head of the company. And Elon was crushed, you know. Tesla for the first 16 years of its life was a money losing
business. Nobody believed in it. And I think part of his, you know, part of his bravado and part of his, I think, maybe part of who he is today comes from those scars of people not believing in him. I think that he, but he also was and still is prepared for failure. I mean, when a rocket launched launches and fails, he doesn't like it, but he moves on and he, you know, he goes, he continues. I did an interview not that long ago with Hillary Swank. She was 17 or 16 when she came
to Los Angeles with her mother from Washington state to become an actor. Penny, I mean, literally, penniless. They literally slept in her mom's car for weeks at a time while she went to high school and then auditions. I mean, they were, they had no money. She went to audition after audition. We get bit parts here and there only at the age of 25 did she get a breakthrough role on barely hills 90210. It was in the 90s. It was the height of that chose popularity and she finally gets a
recurring role on a television show. It's a massive breakthrough. What happens? 16 episodes in they kill her character. Her contract is done. She's out of work. Her entire career blows up and she's finished and she was devastated at the time. She thought her career was over because that was the ticket to cruising altitude in Hollywood. A couple weeks later, her agent calls her and says, hey, there's an indie film. They're doing an open audition. It's not a lot of money, but it's
something. You know, why don't you go do it for an audition? This isn't small indie crew. She auditions for the role and she gets it. She gets off of the role and it's going to pay her nothing. She's going to make like three to five grand on this film. But she has no other options and she had the time because she wasn't doing that or two or no anymore. So she could actually do this role. Well, the role was as brand and Tina. The film was voiced on cry. She was nominated for the Academy
Award. Became one of the youngest nominees and then winners of the Academy Award that year and was catapulted into global startup. And then a few years later, one or second Academy Award as batch actress, you know, in the company of Merrill Streep and Sally Field and a few others. I mean, an amazing story had she not had that failure on I know two or no or what felt like a failure at a time at the time. She would never have had the opportunity to audition for this film. What can
we learn from these stories and these people? We can learn that failure is a can be a blessing. And it's all about how we frame it. Now, I'm not saying I am perfect at this. I hate failing. When I fail, it's painful. When I have failed in my life and career, it's been really hard. The hardest part about it is reframing it. And that's what takes all of my strength, energy. I think for anybody to reframe it and to try and convince yourself that there's a reason.
There's a plan, whether it's God or a force or karma or something. There's a reason why it's happening. And in my life, in every case of failure, every case, it's happened for the right reasons that an opportunity came about because that failure moved an obstacle aside. Because of how you framed the failure, because of what you did after the failure, because it's conceivable that if you take any one of your big failures in your life and you had down tools,
you'd let the failure get the best of you, then it wouldn't have turned. And this is kind of what I was thinking, as you're saying about the force or the God or whatever it's maybe we are the force and we are the God. And I know I don't know. I'm not meant to say I'm like no sister or anything, but it's just thinking there's probably a couple of stories of people that had their character killed in a
movie that decided to forget this. And we don't tell those stories now because they said forget this. So they didn't get the Academy Awards. But in that story, she sounds like she was her own force. She made the decision. And it's interesting because in that moment when you find out your characters killed and you come home and tell your friends your characters killed and you feel the shame, there's no apparent light at the end of the tunnel. So it can't be that. It can't be that that
drives you on. It's going to be something else. It's going to be something else. And it is. But it is a force. I mean, you know, I this is not a show about faith or religion. So it depends on what anyone believes in. But I'm a believer in faith. I believe in it. I don't think that it happens without intervention on our behalf. Like I on our, you know, that we put effort into it. But you know, whether you believe or not, whether you believe in a higher power or not,
I believe in a force. And it doesn't happen automatically. We also have to engineer it. But I believe that there is some kind of guiding force. One one interview I did about a year and a half ago is a Tom Hanks. And Tom Hanks is probably the greatest living actor maybe in the English language. He is the Spencer Tracy of his generation. He's been in so many films. He's won so many Academy Awards when he was ready to start his career as acting career.
He desperately wanted to be in a very prestigious Shakespeare festival in Sacramento, California. And that was going to launch his career. And he didn't get any rules. He didn't get a single part. And so he had to find other acting roles. One day, he finds out about an open audition for a new sitcom that ABC was going to possibly produce. A pilot show based on two guys living in an apartment together in New York. Show is called Busin buddies. He auditions for the part.
Hundreds of people are auditioning. Tom Hanks is a nobody. He gets the part. But now they're just going to make a pilot. They make the pilot. And the show actually gets launched. But even then, there was no guarantee that after that show ended, his career would continue. His co-star Peter Scalari did not have a successful career as Tom Hanks did. Tom Hanks was on that show Busin buddies for a few years. It was moderately successful. But he became the superstar.
And his career began as a series of failures. And so part of it is his own will, his sheer will of just keeping, keep on keeping on. Part of it is fate. Part of his luck. Part of his God or whatever you want to call it. There's something there that said to him, these failures are going to be important for you. You're going to need them in order to get to the next place.
Quick one. I want to say a few words from our sponsor, NetSuite. One of the most overwhelming parts of running your own business as many of your entrepreneurs will be able to attest to is staying on top of your operations and finances. Whether you're just starting out, whether you're a manager, a fast growing company, the complexities only increase. So having the right systems in place is crucial. One which has helped me is one called Next Week. They're also a sponsor of
this podcast. And NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system bringing your accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform. With this single source of truth, you'll have the visibility and control to make fast informed decisions, which is crucial in business. I remember the chaos of scaling my first business and trying to keep everything in order. It was an absolute nightmare. And it's tools like NetSuite that make this easier.
So if you're feeling the pressure, let NetSuite lighten the load. Head to NetSuite.com slash Bartlett. And you can get a free download of the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's NetSuite.com slash Bartlett. What are you thinking about the subject of work, live balance? You know, you've interviewed a lot of very successful people, billionaires. They apparently have it all as it relates to sort of material success. But it must have sort of illuminated the sacrifices they've
made in other areas of their life. What have you come to learn is most important. And what is the warning that you might pass down the ladder to other people that are looking up and thinking, I want to be a billionaire like Richard Branson or someone else that's wildly successful? I mean, there's always the perception that we have or outsiders have of the founder and the internal perception that within the family. And so we saw Steve Jobs differently
than Steve Jobs family sign. I think he was loving father and partner and was seen not as Steve Jobs founder, but Steve Jobs the dad. There's no question that in many examples and many interviews I've done, the sacrifices that the founders have made to build their businesses have meant that their personal lives have been challenging. The marriages have collapsed. They've had difficult relationships. Their children's happened for sure. Is this a big regret you see in the people
that you've spoken to? Sometimes I think sometimes there's some cases where there's a bit of regret around that, around missing big chunks of their kids' lives. Isaac Larian who's a wonderful man and very close to his kids, he because of the success of the brats dolls and the threat that it posed to Mattel, he became the subject of endless lawsuits and then counter lawsuits with Mattel. So he was wrapped up and tied up in court cases with Mattel, the maker Barbie, for virtually a decade.
When he finally won on appeal, the last judgment, I think he won about $300 million on judgment against Mattel, his son was asked by a reporter, aren't you so happy that your dad won? He said, I'm sad because I didn't have my dad around for 10 years because he was wrapped up in this trial.
And of course Isaac was there for his family, but the point is that there are massive sacrifices, you know, and in my case, you know, in a much smaller version of a business I run, I have always wanted to be and I've always tried to be there for every sports game, for every school event, for every parent teacher conference. We as a family have dinner together every night. We run a family meeting every Sunday night. My kids don't love it,
but we sit down and we talk about the week ahead. We talk about our goals of the week. We go over, it's just going to sound a little earnest, but we have a codified list of family values that we wrote down. We all four of us wrote them down and decided what our family is. What kind of things were on that? Gratitude, generosity, forgiveness. So if, which has happened the other day with my son, he got really mad at me because I yelled at him
and I apologized. And I said, I'm sorry, that is stressful day. And he was still mad. And I said, hey, on our family values is forgiveness. Remember, it says forgiveness, except an apology and move on. Curiosity, respect, taking responsibility, there's value in reminding yourself about the things that you aspire to be. And I think in the case of a family, it's to build a strong family, you, it takes work and commitment and time. And that means that you're going to sacrifice
other things in order to achieve that. Why are you still doing what you're doing? Because if you're 15, almost 15 years in, right? How about this were eight? It's been podcasting. Yeah, yeah, 2012 started. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I am really privileged because I get to learn every day, you know, I get to learn from people that I talk to and exchange ideas with people. And I'm essentially have created a life for myself where I'm, I earn a living from learning
which is an amazing place to be. Every day is different. And what motivates what I do is going back to the beginning of our conversation is knowing that I can create something of value for people for free. You know, when I, when I, the impetus for how I built this came from an experience I had now 15 years ago when I was on a, I had a sabbatical year. And I took a business school class. And on the first day, they handed us a case study part A and it was about Starbucks and Howard Shulls.
And I devoured it. It was fascinating. And then the story ended, but you had to wait four days for the class to come back to get part B. And it was fascinating. I didn't know about the case study method. I didn't know that's how they taught business school. What I realized soon after was, was two problems. The first is the case studies were then. They, they weren't comprehensive. And the second problem is they were only accessible to students at Harvard Business School or to
other business schools who were paying $120,000 a year. And I knew then at that moment that I could do the same thing as a storyteller for free. Make these case studies even better and make them available for free. And that was the genesis of how I built this. It was never a show for entrepreneurs or budding entrepreneurs. It was always a show for people who were interested in building a creative life. It's always what it's been about. And, and that's what motivated me
then. And that's what motivates me now. When I hear from somebody who says, and I hear this all the time, I started business. We started to hit a really rocky patch. We didn't think we would make it. And that week I listened to Tom Ranks of Sunbomb or I listened to Ariel Kay of Perish, I listened to whatever episode I listened to. And I listened to it and I felt exactly what she felt at that moment when her business was collapsing was crumbling. And I thought, okay, we can keep
going. And I hear that all the time. Because people, because the show is not about heroes. It's not about superheroes. It's about ordinary people who built incredible brands and how they did it. And they didn't do it because they're superheroes. They did it because they're human. And I want everybody who listens to the show to be able to relate to anybody on the show, whether it's Richard Branson or Howard Schultz or Sarah Blake, whoever we have on the show, they're humans that are
just like the people listening. Who's been your, and I get asked this all the time and it's a bloody awful question, but I'm going to ask you because I get it so often. What has been the interview that has stayed with you in the most profound way? Or the first interview that has stayed with you in the profound way? I have to qualify the answer because there are elements
of every interview I do that stick with me that are powerful. You know, the story tells you about Isaac Larian and the know or his childhood in Iran or whatever it might be. Elements of Gary Erickson's story, the founder of Cliff Bar, I mean, Howard Schultz's story, growing up in a housing project in Brooklyn. So it's impossible to tell you what's the one interview at a 500 that stuck with me the most because there are elements that I remember and connect
with about, you know, connect to with every interview. And I keep in touch with many of the founders who have been on the show. But I think recently one of the most powerful interviews we've done in terms of the scope and the creativity has been the story of Sunbaum, which is a Suntan lotion. It was started by a guy named Tom Rinks. And Tom wanted to create a Suntan lotion brand that could be disruptive in the marketplace. And he drew elements from, you know, all of these
disparate influences, you know, Japanese streetwear and surfboard culture. And he even, even though he was in Holland, Michigan, he got a mailbox in Coco Beach, Florida because he wanted to put Coco Beach, Florida as the address in the back of the bottle. He was influenced by all these different things and put them all together to build a brand that eventually sold to SE Johnson for hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, it's stories like that. And there's so much
more to his story. But there's stories like that where you begin to understand how people took all of their life experiences and put them together, start to put the puzzle pieces together to build something enduring. How many kids have you got? Two. How old are they? 12 and 14. From all the interviews you've done with hundreds of people, you know, 500 extreme, extremely successful
people, tens of thousands of others. If there was just one message that you think would be most useful for those two young kids as they go off into their lives, if they are to listen to this in 10 years time, 20 years time, what would that message be? Find a partner to build your life with. It doesn't have to be a romantic partner or a lover or it can be a sibling or a close friend.
But if you can find a partner to build a life with somebody you can support and who can support you, you are infinitely more likely to build a happy life. Hi, thank you. Thank you so much for so many things. Thank you so much for the inspiration.
You've been a huge inspiration to our show since the very, very beginning. In fact, my producer and the co-founder of this show, Jack, who I started this with, he from day one has been talking about your show, not just in a sense of learning from a great podcast, who makes content in a really value-loaded way, but from the stories you've told, because the stories you've told on your show as well have been, I mean, Jack and myself have continually cited as
have left breadcrumbs for people like us that are building things. Kind of like what you said. They've given us key insights and nuggets at certain moments when we face with certain challenges on how to navigate. And you'll never get to see the value that that's given to so many people. But I just want you to know that I'm one of them. That Jack is one of them and that we're very appreciative for that and also for your time today. So thank you so much, Guy. Thank you.
Quick one. I want to say a few words from our sponsor, NetSuite. One of the most overwhelming parts of running your own business as many of your entrepreneurs will be able to attest to, is staying on top of your operations and finances, whether you're just starting out, whether you're managing a fast growing company, the complexities only increase. So having the right systems in place is crucial. One which has helped me is one called NextWeek.
They're also a sponsor of this podcast and NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system bringing you accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one fluid platform. With this single source of truth, you'll have the visibility and control to make fast informed decisions, which is crucial in business. I remember the chaos of scaling my first business and trying to keep everything in order. It was an absolute nightmare and it's tools like NetSuite that make this
easier. So if you're feeling the pressure, let NetSuite lighten the load. Head to NetSuite.com slash Bartlett and you can get a free download of the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's NetSuite.com slash Bartlett.