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Do more and spend less, like Uber, the Premier League, and Oracle Red Bull Racing. Take a free test drive at oracle.com slash daily. Hey. Hi. Is this Herminia? Yes. It's, uh... It's been a few years. It's been a few years, but it sounds like it was yesterday. I remember your voice now. Well, I remember your voice as well, and it's really nice to hear it again. Yeah, same to you. Are you at home?
Yes, I am. I just got home from work. Which means we're creating more work for you with this conversation. So thank you for making time for us. I really, really appreciate it. No, it's nothing. How are you doing? How is your family? How are you? Michael, this is the question that anyone wants to hear. How am I? Scared? worry, but praying God that nothing happened to us. But it's a hard question to start. It sounds like it's a hard question to answer for you. I mean...
Ask someone that is undocumented in this country for more than two decades, you know, trying to do the right thing, paying taxes, working, raising my kids. And then someone come and, you know, threatening people like me, families that can be separated. I'm having nightmares. I'm not sleeping well. I'm not okay. I mean, I'm not okay because I know next week it's going to be hard. For a lot of people. From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. Five years ago...
We interviewed a woman who asked that we call her Herminia. I'm from Nicaragua. I came to this country when I was 21 years old. And I came because I have a daughter. In 2000. She had traveled to the United States from Nicaragua, where she said that the political situation had made it impossible for her to find work and to support her family. Unlike many migrants from Nicaragua, who were eventually granted protective status in the U.S. Herminia had arrived one year too late to qualify.
I received a letter from immigration with the asylum case that it was denied. I appealed, but the judge denied again. And by the time we reached her... She was the subject of a deportation order. We decide to stay home, but with rules. Nobody's going to open the door. I have a note, a big note in front of my doors. You know, that say, do not open the door, don't answer. It was the summer of 2019, just as President Trump, then in his first term, ordered nationwide raids.
to round up and deport undocumented immigrants. Herminia feared she was on the list. The window is down, you know, it's closed. The TV is going to be really low. In the end, she was never arrested. And today, while her two daughters are U.S. citizens, Herminia and her husband remain in the U.S. illegally, despite what she says are repeated efforts to become a legal resident. There was no way to...
A lot of people say, but why you didn't fix your immigration situation? It's not easy. You think I want to be like this? So a few days ago, I called Herminia back. to understand what's happened to her since Trump left office and how she's now preparing for a second Trump term in which he's pledged to put the deportation of people like her at the center. of his presidency. It's Friday, January 17th.
I want to just go back and understand when we first spoke to you in 2019, you were in this very acute fear of a deportation raid coming. It felt like there was a weekend we spoke to you where it felt like it could happen at any moment. And then Trump loses, Biden wins, and he has at that point been campaigning on a message of a very different approach to immigration and especially undocumented immigrants.
He says he's going to be much more humane. He says he's going to roll back a lot of Trump's policies. And so I just want to understand what that felt like for you once Biden took the White House. Did it make you reevaluate? And what could you do or did you do that you weren't willing to do when Trump was president? When finally we had the results of the presidency. Remember, we had to wait for a few days. Yeah, I do.
I used to pray every day for Biden to win. When finally that notice came up through CNN, I was watching TV. I started crying, giving God thanks for this. I opened my windows. I removed the sign. Now I have to put the sign back. The sign that said to your family, don't open the door. Don't open the door. You took the sign down. Yes, of course. I actually for four years, my window was closed all the time. Your shades went up when Biden won.
Yes. I say, OK, it's time for the light to come back to this house. And I removed the design and I went, I mean, it was, everything was different. When you say you felt protected, I mean, what did you allow yourself to do? Or to feel, but mostly to do? that you didn't when Trump was president? I mean, going out into the world, having certain conversations, what are some examples? Were you willing to try things like driving again and traveling again? With Biden, yes.
I went to Washington, I went to Chicago, I went to different places. I went like two or three times to New York. I go to the airport and I show my passport. Your passport, which is a Nicaraguan passport? Yes. And you just figured because this administration is not... Harmful for me.
It was not harmful for me. Then you can travel. You can go wherever you want to go in the country and you'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Even though some people always say, you know, on social media, oh, be careful when you travel. Not to me. I was really sure that. I was safe. I felt safe. All I know is I felt that I had the, I mean, the freedom. I felt that I was a US citizen in this country. Because I know we had an administration that was not haunting people.
that are a good people. What did that tell you about how Americans think about people like you? America wasn't against immigrants. Not like how they are today. Well, let... Let's turn where I think you're turning. I wonder if there's a moment when you started to realize that despite Biden's election, that America's views, American public views on...
especially around illegal immigration, was changing. And that that change meant that their views had become far less sympathetic. Was there a moment where you kind of... detected that? Well, actually, when Biden started let everyone in, I knew there was going to be a trouble. I knew there was going to be backwards against him.
You're saying when border crossings started to surge at the beginning of Biden's presidency, you worried there would be a backlash? Not in the beginning. But I knew that the American people started to get mad at him. Because a lot of people was coming in. Everything started in New York. Migrants being bused from Texas to New York. Yes. Remember, and from here to New York. From Florida to New York. Yeah.
And I knew this was going to be something against everyone after. I knew it. Everyone is going to pay the price. I mean, a lot of people around me that have no papers. which, you know, I get frustrated listening to them that they are undocumented. They were really mad about the people coming in today, you know, through the border. And I said, we cannot be selfish.
We came the same way looking for the same dreams. So you could sense even among those who were undocumented themselves a frustration with what was happening under Biden because they didn't like it. Yeah. I talk to people that have no papers. They've been here for so long. They are referring to the ones that started crossing the border after 2020. They are really mad.
Because if people that say, look, I have 25 years in this country and I never had the chance to have even a work permit. I pay taxes. I do this. I do this. I know why these people come and have everything easy. You're saying that those who have been here for a long time like you became frustrated with Biden's humanitarian parole program because it felt like a backdoor. Yes, sir.
You know what? I don't say that way. I am not saying, oh, close the border. No, because I am one of them. I am undocumented. I can't say that. Never, ever. The backlash that it seems you feared. Eventually, of course, it feels like it did come, right? Because poll after poll, and I'm thinking, you know, 2022, 2023, early 2024.
Polls started to show just how unhappy American voters were with how President Biden was handling immigration. Crossings hit these record highs. And across the political spectrum... and we did polling here at the New York Times, we could see people saying they wanted stricter enforcement of immigration laws. They wanted deportations. Basically, more and more Americans wanted laws enforced against people like...
And I wonder how that felt. Look, at the end of this administration, everything was out of control. We can't be blind because it's the truth. I mean, it was out of control. There was a point where the news everywhere were talking about people doing not the right things, especially in New York. And I think this is something that the American people got mad for.
It sounds like it perhaps did not surprise you when Trump reemerged over the past few years as a candidate and tapped into this backlash that you had feared would come and began. to arrive. I knew, Michael, that Trump was going to win. You knew? I knew it. Yeah. I'm curious what it was like for you when the results came in. He not only won and won decisively,
He won the community where you live so thoroughly. I mean, you live in the Miami-Dade area, and for the first time in decades, that community elected a Republican, and that was Donald Trump. And that meant that a majority Hispanic Latino community had elected a man who ran on a platform of taking on undocumented immigrants through mass deportation. Yep. Because in this community is a lot of Venezuelans, Nicaraguans and Cubans. So as I always say, they're missing dictatorship.
They missing to live in a dictatorship. They miss a dictatorship, you said. Oh, of course. Of course. They don't want freedom. They don't really want freedom. So I wasn't surprised. I was kind of sure that he was going to win. Of course, I got worried because at this time he's coming stronger, threatening, you know, planting hate.
Worse than ever. And I mean, you said what you said about the different groups and where they're from in the country, but did it feel like your own community had rejected you? What they say is, oh, don't worry, he's not going to touch the good people, only the criminals. That's what they have in mind. And you talk to them today and they're going to tell you that. They say only criminals.
In other words, the people in Miami-Dade who you talked to after the election said, don't worry, this is not about you. No, this is not about you. You are a good person. You pay your taxes. You don't get in trouble. It's only for criminals. Don't worry. You are safe. You'll see. It's only with criminals. I know it's not only with criminals. It's with everyone. He knows about your...
Immigration status. Yeah, of course. He's one of my best friends. And I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I cried like you have no idea. Because I said, look, it's not about freaking politics. How come you're going to do that to me? And what did he say? No, don't worry. You don't have to think about it because more you say, more is going to happen. Don't worry. Okay, it's not going to happen to me, but it's going to happen to families out there.
Doesn't hurt you? And you yourself, you call yourself Christian? In church every Sunday? I mean, doesn't hurt you just to think? That a lot of families are going to be separated? Forget about me. Is that the Christian you are? Are you guys, are you two still speaking? He came to my house after... After that, I mean, I'm trying to be, you know, like normal, but inside me, it's not the same anymore. It hurts, Michael. You know what? Because it's not...
It's not because Trump is not about politics. It's that you know what's coming. You know this man is coming for me, for my family. We'll be right back. But AI needs loads of data, speed, and processing power. So how do you compete without costs spiraling out of control? Time to upgrade to Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or OCI.
OCI is one efficient platform for your infrastructure, database, and application development with AI built in. And Oracle Sovereign Cloud helps you address requirements for location, access, and data residency. Do more and spend less like Uber, the Premier League and Oracle Red Bull Racing. Take a free test drive at oracle.com daily. My name is Abdi Latif Nahir. I'm the East Africa correspondent at the New York Times.
New York Times subscribers keep our journalists reporting from across the map to help you understand the issues shaping our world. If you would like to subscribe, you can do that at nytimes.com slash subscribe. Within the next few days, once he becomes president again...
Donald Trump may order and perhaps even begin to undertake the mass deportations that he has talked about throughout his campaign. And we don't know what they would look like. It may be that in the end, as people in your community have said. He ends up just focusing on those with criminal records. It could be that deportations of people with no criminal records start and there's a public outcry and it gets limited. It may be that the logistics of it are just too complicated and that limits.
the scale of it. But if we take him at his word, he will soon declare a national emergency and begin rounding up undocumented immigrants and deporting them at a scale that's without precedent. And so I want to understand... How you, as somebody with a deportation order, and your family, how you're thinking about and planning for that possibility. What has that conversation with your husband and your two children, what has it been like?
I'm trying to have that conversation with my husband only for now. But of course, my kids have to be aware, have to be informed of everything that we, you know, we're going to do or we can do. But at this point... My daughter doesn't want to talk about that. They don't want to think, not even think about that. They started crying and, man, please just, you know, give me five minutes. And, you know, it's a conversation that we're supposed to have since he won. But we will not have it yet.
You keep putting it off? I sat down with my family like two times. Okay, we have to make a plan. We still have not a plan. Are you talking about the possibility of leaving the United States for Nicaragua? I mean, where are you when you're thinking about whether you're going to try to ride this out for another four years or contemplate? Something more dramatic. I'm going to stay here until the day they catch me. I'm going to stay here until something happens, but hopefully nothing happens.
But sometimes, I'm not going to lie to you, yes, sometimes I think about living before everything gets worse. Because, I mean, it's not a life to be thinking about any minute something could happen. To me or my husband. I am really scared about him because he works in construction. And I know they're going to do, you know, roundup in construction places. You're worried that he will be exposed to a raid because that's an obvious place for Immigration Customs Enforcement officials to go. Yes.
I told my husband, please try not to call me when this guy gets the power because every time I see your call, I don't want to think the worst. You're worried that every time your husband calls you, he is also here without. documentation. You're saying anytime your phone rings during the Trump presidency, you're worried it's going to meet. It's that call. Yep. You mentioned nightmares. Do you have a recurring nightmare about this moment? Yes.
I have nightmares that they catch my husband and I see my kids crying. And then sometimes I have nightmares like I am in Nicaragua and I say why I am here. Why am I here? I'm not supposed to be here. I mean, sometimes I wake up like, and I pray. Sometimes I work here and I'm overthinking. And I start crying. I mean, you just said that I'm going to stay here until I'm caught. I wonder...
how small you're willing to let your life become, how cautious you're willing to be. I mean, in order to have that work, are you willing to bring the shades back down? Oh, of course. Put the sign back on the door inside that tells your husband and your kids and visitors don't ever answer the door. You're willing to do that again. My little girl is bigger now, so she understands better.
Yes, the window is going to roll down. And I think my life is going to be home, work, work, home. Home, work, work, home. Of course. No travel. No. No, not even Walmart, I think. Not even going to the grocery store? No. Michael, no. No. I mean, a lot of people that are going to hear this interview are going to say, oh, come on. No.
Walmart would become too risky? Everywhere. Everywhere is going to become risky. I say, starting next week, I'm not going to church anymore. You're not going to go to church anymore? No, I'm not going to go to church anymore because they are willing to not respect the church either. So thank God we have YouTube. We have a lot of messages online. You're going to watch.
You're going to watch church services online? Yes. You know, I'm going to try just to go to work, home, homework. That's it. I mean, that's a very small... But you know what? World in which to occupy. I feel secure like that. Staying home, I'm not going to die. I think I will be more depressed if I am old. I mean. My daughter told me that we're going to have to move, so we're going to start looking for another place to stay and try to, day by day, be safe.
There may be those listening who think to themselves that you're describing a life of staying that is so circumscribed that you cannot even go to Walmart, that you cannot go to church, that your husband has to change his job. That sounds like a scenario in which it might be... preferable to have some control over your life and decide when and how you leave and have the ability to pack your bags and say goodbye on your own terms rather than...
basically go into hiding and wait for something to happen? I mean, maybe ahead I take the decision and I leave by my own. But right now my daughters... are saying that they will go with me, to go back to Nicaragua with me. These two girls are very, very attached to me, Michael. My oldest daughter, she's 30.
And she said that her dream is to have a duplex where she has me, you know, at the other side of the house. And the last time we have a conversation, they say to me they are willing to go with me. But I don't want it. I love them, but this is their country. Here they have opportunities. So I think maybe that's why I'm not thinking in that way yet. Because I'm thinking of their future. My country have nothing good to, you know.
There's no future. And you're worried that if you leave and try to control the situation, then they will leave too. And you know that will be almost automatic for them based on how they feel about you. You know, the youngest one... She got a full scholarship to go to New York. To go to college in New York? Yes. And she said, no, I'm not leaving my mom. I think we are not a normal family. Well, she must love you very fiercely.
I haven't made that decision yet because I don't want them to be in a country where they can, they're not going to survive. They grew up here in USA. I mean... Because it means your daughters get to stay here too. I feel like I have to ask you this. If you don't make it through the next four years and you are deported, would you try to come back into the United States? Would you try to do this all over again? I don't think so.
No? I don't think I would try to come back, even if I love this country. That chapter of your life, the American chapter, would be over. Yeah, because I think I have to have some dignity also. And dignity means not returning to a country that has deported you. Yeah. If you end up leaving and it ends up being at the hands of deportation, is that going to change how you feel about America and about what America means? No. No.
You know, this country has so many beautiful people. I know a lot of Americans that they are really good people. No, I will not get bad sentiments about America. I love this country. I love USA. I am very grateful with this country. I'm trying to make sense of what it means to you that your American journey may And with Americans having decided that the way you feel about it is not the way they feel about you. They are responsible for their feeling.
And I will never have negative feeling of Americans. And for the people that support deportations, you know, family separations. I leave it to God. I can only say God bless him. Well... Ramini, I want to thank you for your time. Again. And no matter where you end up, I hope that we get to speak again. Thank you, Michael. Thank you. We appreciate it. Bye. Bye. We'll be right back.
But AI needs loads of data, speed, and processing power. So how do you compete without costs spiraling out of control? Time to upgrade to Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or OCI. OCI is one efficient platform for your infrastructure, database, and application development with AI built in. And Oracle Sovereign Cloud helps you address requirements for location, access, and data residency.
Do more and spend less like Uber, the Premier League, and Oracle Red Bull Racing. Take a free test drive at oracle.com slash daily. The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen. The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections. I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling. Play portal or connections and then swipe over to read today's headlines.
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Hamas has demanded changes for how Israeli troops are deployed along Gaza's border with Egypt and called for the release of, quote, terrorists that are unacceptable to Israel. Nevertheless, U.S. officials expressed confidence that the ceasefire would still begin as planned on Sunday. And during his confirmation hearing, former Republican Congressman Lee Zeldin
Donald Trump's pick to run the Environmental Protection Agency was pushed to affirm the existence of climate change. This is held in 2024, as you know, was the hottest year in recorded history. The past 10 years have been the hottest 10 years on record. In the midst of all of that, President-elect Trump has said that climate change is a hoax. Do you agree?
with President-elect Trump that climate change is a hoax. I believe that climate change is real, as I told you. Breaking with Trump, Zeldin said that climate change was not a hoax. and said he was committed to working with career employees of the EPA, many of whom remain deeply suspicious of the Trump White House. I will foster a collaborative culture within the agency.
supporting career staff who have dedicated themselves to this mission. I strongly believe we have a moral responsibility to be good stewards of our environment for generations to come. If you caught Monday's episode about the tech billionaire Mark Andreessen, a major figure in Silicon Valley's shift toward Donald Trump, our colleague, columnist Ross Douthat, has a new interview with Andreessen out this weekend.
You can find it on the New York Times podcast, Matter of Opinion. Just search Matter of Opinion wherever you listen. Today's episode was produced by Jessica Chung. It was edited by Devin Taylor. Contains research assistance from Susan Lee. Original music by Alishaba Etoop, Rowan Emisto, and Pat McCusker. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Lansford of Wonderland. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bavaro. See you on Monday.