From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marquesi. A lot of people wind their way into middle age, having achieved some measure of career success, only to ask themselves, well, now what? And apparently this happens even if you're Serena Williams’s. Serena, who's now 42 years old, retired from competitive tennis a little under two years ago. She'd won 23 grand slabs more than any woman in the world.
She's got a venture capital fund and just launched a makeup line. And she and her husband, Reddit co-founder Alexis O'Hanian, have two small girls. So it's not exactly like she's been idled. She's got a company that's been a part of the company. She's got a company that's been a part of the company. She's got a company that's been a part of the company.
She's got a lot of funds and just launched a makeup line. And she and her husband, Reddit co-founder Alexis O'Hanian, have two small girls. So it's not exactly like she's been idled. But the tennis court still calls. She's gotten back to it, in a way, with a new eight-part documentary called In The Arena, Serena Williams, which will stream on ESPN plus Next Month.
And she told me that revisiting her career through the series has been the first chance she's had to sit back and take in everything she accomplished. Here's my conversation with Serena Williams. So you've been retired from 10S for, it's not even two full years. And one thing that I was thinking about in watching the documentary was really the kind of amazing competitive spirit that you had.
And I'm curious about where that competitive spirit goes or how it changes once you're no longer playing sports. You know, you're doing the different projects, right? You've got the Venture Capital Fund, the Makeup Line. I think you've written a children's book. Did you feel like you, like does it go away the next day or did you feel like you had to find a new outlet for it? For me, it was a necessary thing.
Like I needed to not sit, be done and sit down and wake up and be like, oh my God, what just happened. For me, it was like, thank goodness that I did something that maybe anyone would say was too fast and not maybe it was definitely too fast to just throw myself full heart, full body into everything. But that's kind of what I needed to do to survive, so to say, after I've been playing tennis for all my life, I think it would have been really hard. So I just kind of did all that.
And when you say something you sort of needed to survive, you mean, because you were sort of worried about the prospect of not having new challenges once tennis was done? No, it wasn't about not having new challenges. I think it was more around the fact of like, listen, you've been doing this since you've been born. Do you even know how to do anything else? My whole mission in life was playing tennis, waking up every day, what are you doing today? Practice, what are you gonna do? Train.
And then if you get injured, then you're like, what are you doing today? Rehab, you know, so I can't get back to practice. And that had been my life for over 40 years. And so it was like, you don't go from literally a 40 year career to just going, okay, what do you do today? Nothing? You know, I don't know. So I kind of needed to just, I think all this was subconscious too. I obviously wasn't doing this on purpose, but I think I subconsciously just kind of overlap.
So when my career didn't, like literally the next day, I had a huge team meeting for certain adventures. We were talking about companies, I had fully taken over. And it was just like all hands, all me on deck. And I was on every single meeting. I was on every founder meeting. I was on everything. And again, I think it was too much, but I think that was my way of coping. So I couldn't go from having purpose for all my life to having no purpose.
Does the having purpose aspect of things also include like the scheduling and how you're spending your time? Like did you want to maintain kind of a strict or rigorous schedule for yourself? You know what? No, I didn't know that that's what I was doing for the record. I didn't realize that. But now I'm like wanting to figure out a way to take a break, which I probably should have done earlier, but I don't know if I would have mentally survived that because of my personality.
I probably would have been back on the tennis court playing tennis. But yeah, now I'm just like, I haven't stopped in my whole life of been going nonstop for my entire life. So I kind of needed breather. I need to, I really desperately need a breather. So I'm trying to navigate all that now. Your kids are still pretty young, right? My, I have two girls. One is eight months and one is six years old.
And is there a particular understanding that you want your daughters to have about what you accomplished in tennis? I, it's kind of, it's tricky, right? Because it's like I want them to understand but at the same time that have come with time. So I'm not really too, too, you know, Olympia told me the other day, like you're famous. And I'm like, not really, I'm just your mom.
So I don't know, I just feel like when the time comes and honestly what it settled in for me to, I know that sounds really crazy, but what it's all settled in for me, I'll definitely have that conversation with them and I'll let them know like, you know, I'm potentially the important, you know, the, I don't want to be too presumptuous, but the impact I had, I should say, the impact that I have had and on sport and beyond.
You know, you're, you're dead, famously, saw something in you and in Venus. And then worked so hard to help you guys achieve that. And he saw something in you and you understood her when you guys were real little. And I wonder, do you feel like you see something in your daughters in the way that your dad saw something in you? I don't know, that's a really good question. I feel like, I don't know, I always look at my dad and I think how were you able to do that?
Because I'm like, oh, they're so cute. I just want them to relax and I don't want to over push them, but I would be devastated if I wasn't pushed because I wouldn't, we wouldn't be having this interview and there would never have been a serenity Williams. So I feel so fortunate that I had an opportunity to have that extra, you know what I mean? But for whatever reason, I'm having a hard time connecting to like that extra push.
And that's something that I've been trying to figure out myself is like how to get that extra motivation to my daughters because it's definitely worth it. I can confirm from experience. It worked out pretty well for you. It worked out well. But what do I see? I don't know, I think my oldest, I mean, the eight-month-old is so tiny, but I think Olympia is such a bright light. And she's so athletic to a point where it's just not even humanly possible.
And my, even Venus, she was like, that kid is more talent than you and I combined and she's not lying. So it's, I can see how my dad may have seen some potential in us. Yeah, so for me, I'm just like trying to figure out a way how to like harness all that. And just do that. I'm like, are you telling my dad, like maybe you have to coach her because I'm too nice. Yeah, you're too soft. I'm too soft. Yeah, there you go.
You know, I can imagine it's sort of an interesting thing that a lot of parents have to think about. It's like you do the hard work and push yourself on some level maybe so that your kids don't have to do the hard work. But then you also want them to achieve. If you don't want them to not reach their potential. And like I said, I know from experience, it was definitely worth it. I can confirm that.
So for me, it's like trying to get into a place where I do feel comfortable saying like, okay, girls, we're going to do this every day. But it also takes a lot of commitment from the parent. And that's why I said now I have so much respect for my mom and my dad because I was like, okay, Olympia, we're going to play tennis every Wednesday. And then I'm now like, and do you ever talk with Venus about why she still plays? Like do you understand why she's still out there? And Venus loves tennis.
And I think the question will be best answered from her. I do not want to speak for her. But I do know that that's something that I mean, we both love tennis. Honestly, I feel like I would still be playing if I didn't have to stop and have a family. Can I ask you a slightly tennis nerdy question? Yeah, for sure. In the documentary, I think you're talking and I think you're reminiscing about after winning your first slam.
And you say that after that, you really had a bullseye on your back that the other players on tour were really like, we got to beat the William sisters. What did you think that was about back then? And is your perspective on it now different? I definitely had a red X on me. And it was hard. It was people assume that you're not friendly. And that's usually not the case. You're just there to win.
And people don't really want to talk to winners in a single sport to be the birds of a feather flock together. And there's only one winner. And so who are you going to flock with? And if I were playing soccer, it would be a completely different situation because you have a team of players. I had my mom and my dad. And we kept ourselves really close because we had to. But yeah, I do feel like it shook the world. I mean, come on. Like a black girl wins a grand slam at 17 years old.
And she's from Compton. If you're not going to take notice, the world took notice of it. So obviously they took notice. And so it had been dominated sport by Caucasians. So it was like, whoa, we're having a change in our sport. We don't like that. This isn't normal. Let's not let her win. And so that's quite frankly what it was. And do you find any of the same racial dynamics in play in? No, I didn't say race. I didn't say that it was racial.
I just said that to be clear, I said that it was a change. And just like anything, you're going to notice if it was Asian birds and winning everything when there was only white people winning before. So I happened to be black and it happened to be me and I happened to win a grand slam and I happened to be young. And it was like, whoa, this hasn't happened since the 50s. So obviously it's going to take note. And obviously it was like, well, we're not used to this.
So we want to make sure that we make our comeback, too. This is a semi-random question. Did you see challengers? That is so random. And yes, I did see challengers. Thoughts? I thought it was good. I wanted there to be more of an ending. I was like, I told Zindai I was like, listen, is there more? Like I want more. Did they win? I mean, I don't want to give away the inner ending. But yeah, I thought it was quite interesting. Who did you see it? I did see it, yeah. What did you think of it?
I liked it. I just kept wondering about the accuracy of the tennis in it. I think they did really good, actually. I think for the most part, I thought the tennis was very well done. And it's like on any level, did those sort of interpersonal rival reason dynamics ring true for you? So yeah, I thought it was pretty accurate, too, about the tennis player and the relationship that they had.
I felt like sometimes you can become really connected to whoever you're with, whether that's a friend, a coach, or a co-dependent, I should say, has a better word. I feel like I was co-dependent with Venus. I actually felt like there was so much accuracy in there about things that we don't think about as tennis players or even talk about as tennis players. There's definitely a lot of code depending I feel. I don't know, I can go both ways. You can also be a loner in tennis, so I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know. I listen. I like the movie. That's all I can say. But everyone's allowed to have their own opinion. Yeah. I also saw this news come out of the Trump trial that you were in the president's contacts. You guys would talk to each other? I mean, is this what this interview is about? So when somebody has a chance to talk to a president, it occurs what they talk to a president about. I talk to a lot of presidents.
So I spoke to Brock, I spoke to Clintons, I spoke to every president since I've been alive, including Ronald Reagan. I'll have you know. Oh, really? What do you think they're looking for in talking to you? What do they want to know? I don't know. I'm not going to go there. Fair enough. You talked a little bit about the idea of your, for lack of a better term, like the legacy and what you achieved.
And it does really seem like in the last few years, there has been this explosion of interest in women's sports. And I think it's inarguable that you were a big part of that. Like do you feel some sense of responsibility for the position women's sports is in now? No. I would feel that way if it were tennis. And I know it's not linear, but I don't want to be presumptuous. Listen, these women are working so hard at what they do.
And you know, whether it's Angel Wries or Caitlin Clark, they deserve. They're the attention that they're starting to get. And I wasn't there. I was doing my own different thing in tennis, right? So I can't sit here and say that it's because of me that women's sport is doing so good. Like that's just not, first of all, that's not me. And I don't know if that would be 100% accurate. Women's sports athletes have been great for decades and way before me.
I mean, Chris Everett was great and Martin and Everett Lovett was great. And maybe it's just the build up of all that decades and decades of greatness. And then people finally catching on that women are awesome and amazing. And they could just kick button sport too. And so I don't know. Maybe it's just a full compilation of it all. And you know, I am always curious with athletes about the memories that they have from their careers.
And do you find that you, I don't know how much you sit back and think about this kind of stuff. If you do, does your mind go to the big wins or the losses? I'm the kind of person that be like, I hated that I lost it. I try to forget my losses to be honest. You know what? I actually always refuse to go down memory lane during my career because I always said that's when you get satisfied. And that's how you got grow and not be better.
Because if I'm like looking at me and I'm one like 18 grand slums, I'll be like, Oh my God, that's amazing. Why am I doing this? And so I didn't want to kind of have that mindset. So I kind of never really looked back and with everything going on with Serena and Lerina, I have an opportunity to look back and say, Wow, this has been really, really cool and really interesting like to kind of remember that. Ah, it felt good.
You know, it's being the subject of a documentary is obviously something that most people don't get to experience. You know, just seeing sort of your life story played back to you in a narrative fashion. What is that experience like and what were some of the interesting nuances of seeing how someone else like understands what the Serena Williams story is? I am always amazed at people and the excitement they have for what I've done. I'm just like, I'm just a normal person.
You know, like, I've been so in a box of just like staying focused and just like, you know, just like, I don't know, just doing the best that I could on that day and just that's all I could do. So now just having an opportunity to hear people talk, you know, about it almost gets me super emotional and it's just like, wow, I just honestly, I just didn't know. I just didn't know. Probably more about that because you were like in it so you couldn't see outside of it or.
Yeah. I mean, obviously I knew, but it's also just I'm so in it. I would literally win Wimbledon and I would go back the next day and tell not even the next day I would grab a conversation with my dad being like, okay, dad, so that was great. But I really want to focus on I know I can win the open and it's just like, I literally never really took too much time to like settle in and in my and my wins. And I just was always looking for the next quote unquote, high for lack of a better word.
And it was always more competition. It was always the next the next one. Do you still find yourself looking for the next quote unquote, high? I have so much more excitement now with just relaxing. And this has been a process of trying to find my new normal.
And now I'm like getting to a point where my day today ends at 12 and I'm like, I have a massage at 130 and it's just like, it's kind of nice to, you know, have an opportunity to just take a deep breath in and deep breath out because I've never, I've never had that. And I've always gone from the next thing, you know, so I'm trying to enjoy this. After the break, I call Serena back to talk tennis rivalries and more about what she's looking for in this next era of her life.
I was images of me in a stroller on the tennis court. So it's literally my entire life. It's been about one thing. I don't know anything else. Hi Serena, how are you? I'm good. How are you, David? I'm good. I'm good. Thank you for taking the time again. I appreciate it. Um, no worries. You know, one thing that... One second. What did you say, Olympia? I think you think it's not all think about it. But yes. I'm sorry. Can you hear me? I'm just with my daughter. So it's okay.
What are you guys doing? I'm just with her today because she's out of school. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, speaking of Olympia, one of the things that you and I had talked about in our first call that I thought was really interesting was sort of the push and pull and maybe some uncertainty you felt about knowing how much to try and put your child on a path towards greatness and how much to push them in the way that, you know, your dad pushed you and your sister.
And one thing that I thought more about was, um, like, what are your husbands thoughts about that? I mean, I assume he wasn't put on a path to excellence in quite the same way as you were. So does he have the same uncertainty? Like, do you guys find you're on the same? Do you, do you both feel the uncertainty about? I'm going to call. I'm going to leave you just, I need one minute. Okay. I'm just going to call. Okay. Thank you. Sorry. I'm so sorry.
Okay. Um, yeah, we, it's not, I actually get easier for my husband. So I think it's easier for him to be like, okay, let's go here, go for every week or whatever and just be more of a, like, motivator than I am. But I'm so sorry to find that balance because I tell you, and I always say like, I wouldn't trade anything that I've done for the world. So why am I world? Why am I not pushing my daughter a little bit more?
So I was just trying to figure out my balance of like pushing versus over pushing. And I don't think, I think the way my dad did it was good, but I just need to kind of get that head spray sooner than later, you know? Do you find that Olympia responds to, to being pushed? I, I don't know. I don't, to be perfectly honest, I don't think I even push her enough to see if she's responded, which is, is that there's, you know, like, come on, crazy, do better, Strenan.
So I don't even know the answers to that. Yeah. And you know, something else that was interesting to me was that you had said that you felt like you were codependent with Venus when you guys were on tour together. Can you tell me more about what you meant by that? Because codependency usually has a negative connotation, but my hunch is that you didn't mean that negatively. I don't think so. Oh, so tell me about it. I don't think so. I think it's good.
Like, I mean, codependent is great in some instances. I think the instance that I meant it because we depended on each other. We motivated each other. And I think, I think I can see where it could be a negative connotation, but I also think you'd be a positive thing. Like, no one could have pushed me. I mean, it wasn't for her when they've been pushed so far.
She literally pushed me to try and harder and to be on the court more than anybody else and to work harder and that's because, you know, we depended on each other to do that and to motivate each other. So it's definitely more positive. I'm glad you saw that it could have been more positive than negative. So thanks for asking me to clarify that. But yeah, I think that's a positive thing. You know, last time I asked you a sort of insider-y tennis question and I want to ask you another one.
And it's, this is just something I was always personally curious about. So I think Sharapova beat you twice, pretty early on in your career. Sharapova. Oh, okay. And then you never lost to her again. I think you beat her something like 18 times in a row after that. Did you just decide like this person is never beating me again? Oh, man, you didn't see it. I think that's episode three. I don't want to get it all away. Oh, they only showed me the first two. Oh, my God. I'm so sad.
You'll just be the rest. It's in there. It's definitely in there. All right. It's easier. It's easier. It's easier. You got to wait for it. It's actually really good. But it is. There was a reason why I didn't lose to her and I explained that. So you know, that's talking about a bunch of wins that you had. And I know you don't like to talk about losses. Another thing I'm curious about. Okay. So you were so dominant for so long in Grand Slam finals. And then I think you went over the last four.
Did that have to do with the pressure of trying to catch Margaret Court's Grand Slam record? I think it was pressure and pressure I put on myself and I should have won at least two or three of those. There's definitely one I should have lost for sure, which I don't think you're even looking back. I could have won one at least one of them. But definitely one two. I don't remember the third one. Definitely two at least two of my kids have won. And you know, it's just too much pressure.
I put on myself and I couldn't relax. I just couldn't relax and be able to just just say, you know, and just breathe. And at this suck, honestly, it does. But nothing I can do about it now. It's not going to change anything except for how I feel ultimately. How often do you think about not getting 24? Never actually. Oh, good. I never do. Which is good, right? I thought it was worse than that.
But I never do because I had such an amazing career and quite frankly, I hope I honestly should have had 30. I feel like I could have had way more than 24. You know, you posted on social media the other day. It wasn't critical. It wasn't critical. Then you were ready to hit balls again. What were you referring to? I literally am ready to hit balls. I was like, I haven't hit in a long time. It's my life. And I love it. And I'm just it. I miss it so much.
I did learn maybe I shouldn't post it on Twitter because people think I'm going back and I'm like, no, and literally just at a once in a while. Yeah. What are you and Olympia going to do today considering she's off school? What's the plan? We're just hanging out all day and I wrote blocks with her later. We're going to do that. We have a pedicure this morning. And so we're just having a girls day. Retirement sounds good. It is. It's fun. It's different. It's a life I've never experienced.
You have to understand for my entire life since I was, if I can remember, images of me in a stroller on the tennis court. So it's literally my entire life. I've been about one thing. So I don't know anything else. And so this is all new to me. It's like a whole career. And it's cool. It's I have to tell you it's really cool. And of course I prefer playing tennis. But you know, it's because I've done it my whole life. Of course you prefer to do something that you've done since you could walk.
You know, like that's kind of rare in a career. Usually people work to get a career, but I've been doing this like a walk. So definitely different feeling. And I think that's natural curve that I just have to learn. You know, it sounds like you really missed tennis. Yeah, I do. And I like that I missed tennis. I would hate to be like, oh, I hated that so much. And like that would be such an awful, like sad thing for me because tennis meant so much to me.
And I didn't realize it that much to me to be honest. And I didn't realize that I would have such amazing relationship with tennis after it was all said and done. And I love that. I'm really I'm really happy that I have that relationship. It's like a goodness. It's like a good it's like nostalgia, but you know, nostalgia is positive. So I love that. That's Serena Williams. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orm. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by a fume Shapiro.
Original music by Dan Howe and Mary and Luzano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and our senior producer is Seth Kelly. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Ronan Burrelli, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schuman and Sam Dolnick.
If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the interview wherever you get your podcasts and to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview. Next week, Lulucar C. Anavaro talks with Michigan Governor Gretchen Wittner. I think you can't win an election in Michigan by double digits if you're not also drawing over people who are not traditional Democrats. And I'm proud of that.
I'm Dave and Mark Azee and this is the interview from the New York Times.