From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marquesi. To be influential online today is to be bombarded with all sorts of difficult questions about self-presentation, public judgment, freedom of speech, personal power and money. Over the last decade or so, Mia Khalifa has been forced to try to find some answers. In 2014, when Khalifa, who was born in Lebanon and raised Catholic in the D.C. area, was 21 years old,
she made a decision that changed the rest of her life. Khalifa was working in the adult film industry and performed in an explicit scene while wearing a hijab. The video went viral and the response was harsh. She even got death threats, including a photoshopped image of her being beheaded by the Islamic State. The vitriol was part of what led Khalifa to leave the adult film industry and try to go back to anonymity. She couldn't.
So a few years ago, she decided that rather than try to pretend her past didn't exist, she could try to own it. She gradually turned herself into a massively popular social
media influencer, one with a lingering aura of transgression. Khalifa now has millions following her on X, TikTok and Instagram, and she's also built a big audience on only fans, which is an online platform where subscribers can directly pay performers for all kinds of content, some of which is fairly innocuous, and much of which, including Khalifa's,
is, let's say, risqué. I'd been dimly aware of the controversy surrounding Khalifa back in 2014 and was surprised in recent years to see her still popping up here in there, on unofficial lists of top only fans, earners, on the great Hulu Shalrami, and in passing coverage of her jewelry brand, Shaitan. Then last year, I saw her name come up again. After she posted inflammatory tweets following Hamas's terrorist attack in Israel on October 7th.
How did the person I had heard about a decade ago turn into this person, an apparently still controversial influencer with a multi-platform following in the tens of millions? I suspected that the answers might have something to say about the wider world of being famous online. I'd been curious about the influencer corner of the internet for some time, how these people build and rebuild their personal brands, how they handle controversies, and the potential cost
to someone's head and heart of choosing to live such a public life. Here's my conversation with Mia Khalifa. To start, I've seen you online or in other interviews talk about the idea that you're kind of in the middle of a rebranding. But the thing that I haven't seen you talk about is what you think your brand was and what you want your brand to be now. So can you sort of fill that story in for me? I feel like my brand at the beginning wasn't something that was very much in my control.
It happened. I kind of became infamous by accident. I entered the adult industry and in October of 2014. And very, very quickly, I was pressured to perform in a video where the context was that I was an Arab veiled woman. And that was it. The intent was to exploit the fact that I was Arabic and spoke Arabic. And I went through with it and not very long after. I would say like, maybe a couple hours after it premiered, the avalanche started. And every news outlet picked it up.
And everybody had an opinion on it and felt like from there on, my fate was sealed. And all of a sudden, I was completely out of control of my image, my reputation, my intentions. Every single thing about me was being misunderstood. I feel like a lot of people have slutty phases when they're 2021. Like in college and unfortunately, mine was in 4K. So how did it become clear to you that you couldn't really go back to normal life in the way that you
wanted? I was working at a law office. And I started to feel like a distraction in the office. Anyone who would come in, there would be whispers in the waiting room. And if other attorneys came to visit from other firms, there would be whispers within that. And I just started to feel very much like a distraction and uncomfortable. And that's when I realized like, this isn't going to change. This isn't going to go anywhere. This isn't going to get better. I don't like feeling
this way. I don't like, you know, the women that I work with looking at me a certain way. And I especially don't like the men looking at me a certain way. Because it's a bit of like a like a zoo animal. Like it's that type of fascination and those type of whispers, not not necessarily to say that it was abusive or disrespectful, but it was just like, that's not something that I
wanted to keep dealing with. So every open social media and I decided to actually try to be an influencer and to be someone who was the public person if that was the fate that I had sealed for myself. So in that sense, when we talk about what your brand was, really we just mean sort of how people knew you publicly. Yes. The brand that they formed in their head because there
was no there was no intention. There was no purposeful intention behind that brand. And I think that where I am now mentally, emotionally, just on every level is a complete 180 from who I was. I want my brand to represent being a contradiction. That's that's that's that's my brand. Just evolution. I think you have somewhere in the neighborhood of six million followers on X, 26 million people follow you on Instagram. I think I think 38 million follow you on TikTok. So
how do you sort of reinforce your brand on each of those platforms? And how is it different on each of those platforms? That's such a good question because you're not going to succeed if you are the same across all platforms. Not to say that you have to be different, but you have to show different size of you. We're all multifaceted. And TikTok is more for like my skincare and like fun music and silly videos. And then my Twitter is, well, Twitter is my favorite app in general.
It's where I get all of my news. It's very much about activism and jokes and and just what Twitter was made for. So I'm trying to find that balance of of hoping that my my my my grand intention gets across on all of them while still being true to what each platform is is kind of for. But my assumption tell me if I'm wrong is that your money maker is only fans. Yes. Where you're also extremely popular. I mean, I've seen in interviews, you know, I think someone wants to ask you
like, do you make $10,000 a day? And you I don't remember if you said yes, but I think you're like, it's in the neighborhood of that. Or I've seen stories that suggested like $6 million a month. Like just really is that not? Oh my God. No, that's insane. No, that's like that's like googling someone's network. That's never accurate. Those aren't true. No. No. But do you feel like there's any tension or anything to reconcile in the fact that you make your money on this one platform that I
assume is predominantly men. And it seems like sort of your followers on these other platforms are women and just like content wise. There are ways in which they're not in alignment with the stuff that that's on only fans. Like does that feel like something that you have to reconcile in some way or how do you understand that gap? It's not necessarily that because I feel like the way that I'm on the platform is a way that is very true to myself and makes me makes me feel comfortable
with being on it. I do not like catering to the male audience, even though it might seem like I do. Just because I look a certain way in a bikini does not necessarily mean it's not for the girls. If anyone who goes on my only fans and asks for something crude or something past my boundaries, I don't do nudity past what I've done in a fashion magazine, which is like a see-through shirt or something like that. So I feel very, very secure and the audience that I've cultivated on that
platform also knows what they're in for. So I don't have trouble with that. I have more trouble with making sure that I'm not promoting it as a platform that that is an answer to women who are looking for quick money or easy money or the life of an influencer that they might see me live.
I feel like I have a responsibility to not promote it as something that young women or any woman should join unless they've already been in the sex work industry, unless their over 25 in their frontal cortex is formed, unless they're coming at it from a place that is that's not... I don't want to use the word desperate, but just from a place of clarity and from a place of good
intentions. Agency, maybe. Yeah, yeah, from exactly. Thank you for that. From a place of agency and bodily autonomy, not from a place of, oh, I need to do this because I want to live this lifestyle because that's not the case. I am very much an outlier. The reason that I'm able to be so successful on that platform is because I'm extremely fortunate, but I've also paid the price with a lot of misfortune. So me going onto that platform felt like a reclamation rather than, oh, I want to
do this so that I can live like this. And maybe it would just be helpful to pull back for a little and give some broader context about how you got to that reclamation. So there was the experience in the adult film industry that you talked about. When did the decision come to give only fans a try? So initially I was on a platform called Patreon. Yeah. And it was so much work. It was so much production. It was really, really difficult to keep up because most people who were on Patreon are
like doing podcasts. And my tears are like, oh, if you're on this tier, then you get this photo shoot. And if you're on this tier, you get one livestream of me cooking a week. And it started to feel like, I wasn't cut out to be a streamer. And that's what it started to feel like. It started to feel like I had to host a podcast or do something to make it worthwhile for Patreon members. And then in 2020, I decided to join only fans after the Beirut blast. And I made the decision to
join only fans and donate. If I was able to make $100,000, I am donating $100,000. And that's why I'm joining this platform. And I was able to do that. And after that, I realized the community there isn't necessarily as as negative as I kind of had written it off to be in my head. And I was able to reach that goal. And I've been on there ever since. And I love it. And you if obviously had pretty negative experiences in, I guess we call the sex work industry. And I mean, is it fair to
categorize only fans as sex work also? I think it is. And I feel like people who get insulted by that feel ashamed of being lumped in with sex workers. But no, that's that is the definition. The adult industry, the sex work industry. And so on only fans, your experience in that industry has been much more positive. And it's one of of agency and sort of your in control. And and you've also spoken out pretty candidly about what you see as the dangers of the sex work
industry. Do you find it difficult at all to kind of thread the needle between talking about what the potential harms of that industry are while also not sort of further stigmatizing people who work in that industry? Like it seems like it could be a very difficult needle to thread. Very. I get a lot of backlash from women in the industry for that reason actually. But to be honest, I care more about the young girls who haven't entered the industry yet and see me. And
they're like, Oh my god, I love her outfits. She's always traveling. I want that life. And they don't like that. That's my number one priority. I don't care if another girl is getting mad at me because I'm stigmatizing something. I feel like someone's always going to get mad at you about something. And I I don't care. It is it is very contradictory of me to be on something and tell other people, no, don't join. But I'm not saying don't join. I'm saying, I'm saying don't don't
join. On don't join so young. Don't join us like your first entryway into something. Don't join as is like as it being an answer to all of your problems because it's so difficult to build an audience on there. It's so hard. And it could cut like you could just don't don't do something you you could regret. The internet is forever. Your digital footprint, especially this day and age is so important. And I wish I took that so much more seriously 10 years ago.
And you know, it's the subject of shame is is a complicated one. It's the most powerful human emotion. And I think it's complicated because particularly from the outside looking at your experience, it can feel like such a cliche and very easy to go like, oh, you went through these things like they were shameful things, you know. But sex work doesn't have to be shameful. It's not it's not inherently shameful. I'm just wondering if if you can talk through as much as you can,
like what your relationship with shame is now. And sort of if you feel like you've gotten past it or maybe on some level, like we all never get past. I hope not. You call people shameless as a negative like in a derogatory way for a reason. Like I hope that I still have a little bit of shame in me. I feel like I feel like they're in in in small doses. It's it's pretty healthy. Why is it why is it healthy? Well, I feel like shame just stops you from from being a complete
asshole sometimes, you know? Like it stops you from just being completely disrespectful and completely rude. Like have you know shame? That's that's that's something that like you got to tell you got to ask yourself once in a while. Yeah. So there is there is a healthy amount. But then you know, there's also the other side of shame where even Pixar was like, oh for inside out too, we wanted that to be one of the emotions. But everybody got too depressed. It was too sad. Like shame
is shame is powerful. Shame can drive you to to make decisions and that are terrible and look at yourself in a way that is so negative and and talk to yourself in a way that just just buries you so deep that you feel like you can't crawl out of it. It's so it's so heavy. And you really just have to like think about why why do I feel ashamed of this? Do I feel ashamed of it because it it goes against my fundamental beliefs like my core beliefs or am I feeling ashamed
because people are laughing because if that's the case, then you're not ashamed. You're embarrassed. An embarrassed is a completely different emotion and it requires a completely different set of tools to work through. So do you have a vision of what an ethical adult film industry would look like or would be what needs to change in that world? I think that the predatory contracts need to
change. I think that the production companies who are given impunity to enforce these contracts no matter the circumstances like even if a girl was let's say drugged or under the influence or traffic or all of these awful awful circumstances that does not matter to them and there's nobody to enforce anything. And that is a big monster to fight. You know, I was just watching the other day
there was a talk you gave at the Oxford Union, not that long ago. And during the sort of audience question and answer portion a young woman stood up and she prefaced her question to you with, you know, I'm paraphrasing so maybe I'm not getting the terminology exactly right but she referred to you as a feminist icon. Can you talk about how feminism manifests itself in your work? That's a really good question because I feel so much imposter syndrome around being called that.
Yeah, why? Because I had so much internalized misogyny that I had to work through and I feel like that didn't start until I started my therapy journey at 26. Like I am so ashamed of the things that I've said and thought about myself and allowed others to say and jokes that I went along with and contributed to about myself or about other women or anything like that. I'm extremely ashamed of that, which is why I say there is no being here unless there was change. So it's been
an evolution but on the only fans platform it's it's my boundaries. It's the way I enforce them. It's the way that if someone, you know, says a word or or describes a body part in a way that's that's more crude than I'll accept. But they get blocked on Twitter, on Instagram, on TikTok, all of those platforms. I feel like I hope that it manifests in the work that I do, the people that I platform, the things that I talk about in spotlight, like women's reproductive rights and anti-human and
sex trafficking efforts and all of these things. I really, really hope that they come across on those platforms. You referred to internalized misogyny and I mean really I think in some ways you're talking about your background and how you grew up. Can you just talk to me about sort of what you feel like were the most formative aspects of of you're growing up and like what are things from your your youth or the culture you are raised in or your family that you feel like you're still
trying to um, work through. The internalized misogyny actually came more from the American influences. It was, you know, I don't even want to platform the comedians, but it was it was not being comfortable as a woman in in in brown skin and not being comfortable as an Arab woman. I grew up in DC in a post 9-11 world and there was a lot of just blatant racism and I started to hate myself and I started to very, very much try and you know fit myself into the white category.
No, I'm wearing Brooks Brothers and Sparries. What do you mean? I'm not brown. I'm not Arab. Like I would join in on on jokes like that. I would I would join in on on jokes against women. I would put myself down to to hope that I can fit into to places I shouldn't even have been trying to fit into.
And I carry a lot of shame about that, but growing up culturally as an Arab woman, the formative things that kind of like messed messed me up psychologically was more so the guilt, the expectate Catholic guilt, the expectations, all of those things. And this is maybe connected, maybe it's not, but you were estranged from your family for a while,
but have recently reconciled or come close to reconciling. So can you can you tell me about why the estrangement happened and how you've been able to heal that? Everyone healed through shame. I don't talk about my family a lot for for their privacy. They did not choose the life in the public eye and out of respect for them. I do not talk about them, but I will say that there was a lot of radical empathy that was practiced within the family that
that you know made that possible. And I'm really really really grateful for that. I'm I'm really glad you've got. Thank you. Got in there with them. Thank you. Yeah. And to your Lebanese. Yeah. Yeah. This is a very difficult moment for Lebanese people. The violence there is escalating. Do you have friends there? Do you have family there?
I do. I do. Thankfully, they're thankfully they're in the position where they're taking in refugees and and you know people who aren't able to cross the borders right now or at least having to flee their homes. They're they're able to open their doors and give them a place to stay and that that's the best you can hope for for the situation in Lebanon in Lebanon right now.
You know, I I saw you say in a relatively recent interview that you know, you're talking about the idea of politics and what your platform is and you've also talked in this context or just to be specifically like the the context of politics and political beliefs about wanting to make a difference in some way. So how do you think you're able to make a difference or how might you be able to make a difference? The I it's it's really just normalizing it. Making making people see that
it's not taboo to talk about it. It's not talk about what to talk about ending the genocide to talk about a ceasefire to talk about to talk about any to talk about you know, anti anti abortion to talk about any of these things. It's not taboo. It's not a oh you're an influencer just do your job. Oh you're an athlete. Keep politics out. Oh you're this. No stick to that. It's not taboo to have an opinion. In fact, you are you're an NPC if you don't have an opinion. You're you're a non playable
character. You're a robot. You're you're you literally do not do not exist. If you if you have no interest in contributing to the fight for human rights or you know basic rights domestically or you know internationally. What are you good for? What are you good for? Like for real coming out and saying I don't think celebrities should have opinions on politics. Please. This is obviously very difficult subject or set of subjects to talk about. You know, I don't feel like my role here is to
condone ideas that you might have about it or or to rebut them. Her points of view are not mine. I want to be clear about that from the outset. And here I'm thinking about you know, I think it was either on October 7th or last year or right maybe right after October 7th. Like two days after. Right. You know what I'm going to ask you. Right. So you posted on X there was one post that was I'm going to paraphrase, but you were suggesting the the freedom fighters in Gaza should you know
flip their phones to horizontal in order to better film it. And then there was another post. I think it was on X probably right around the same time where there were it's hard to know for sure, but it looked like there were Hamas militants shooting into an Israeli police car. And as a result of those posts, some companies that you were in business with decided to stop doing business with you. And and I also want to add you said while you're anti Zionist, you're in no way anti Judaism. No,
and it's very important to not say Jewish people when talking about Zionists. But you know to my mind, those posts didn't meet like the moral tenor of the moment, you know, and I'm not asking you to like defend or explain those posts. But the the question I have is whether your experience with with those posts and the reaction that they engendered made you think differently about the kinds of posts you want to make about Gaza or about politics or sort of really what the value and use
that you can bring to these conversations might be. So if you'll allow me, I would like a chance to to talk about those tweets. So the first one was not the reason I had said that was because there was a scene that was that was really poetic and symbolic and beautiful. And it was a fence was being broken down and it was it was civilians, it was children, it was it felt like it felt like the
Berlin wall coming down. And that's what I was talking about. And that's why I said freedom fighters because every Palestinian who you know still has a will to live is a freedom fighter. So that's what it was in reference to. And the other one, the photo, it just felt so baroque. Like it looked it. I do prefer to it is looking like a Renaissance. Yes, exactly. Like there was there it the composition everything about it. And I feel like
I feel like that's not at the time. It was too soon. But I feel like that's not a you know a radical thing to say about something that that looks so. I mean it really did it looked it looked crazy. But yeah, the timing was not was not it was too soon. And that's where I stand on that. And all of the all of the business that I lost because of it was extremely welcomed because if we really disagree at that level, we shouldn't be working together in the first place. So I'm not
angry about it. I'm actually grateful for it. Unfortunately, I had to play out like that. Unfortunately, very like this was the part that that I regret the most. And it was my intention being so misconstrued that people people who were close to me reached out and and were and were
deeply deeply hurt by what I had said and how did they explain their hurt? What would the the same as other people I cannot believe that you would say something this violently fueled like I can't and and having to go back and explaining to them my my intention and apologizing for hurting them and really really just just making sure that they understand who I am as a person. And and did that experience incur any changes about how you think about what to post or when to
post it? Yes, completely, completely because because that that was a distraction. That was that was not my intention. That you know, that's not how I want any of my activism to be. I don't want it. That focused it on me, not about and also as as people of color, we and I'm talking about, you know, whether we're fighting for Black Lives Matter here, stateside or a free Palestine or a free Congo, whatever it may be, we we have no room for error. We are given no grace. So it takes a
lot more. I I personally, I have I can only speak for myself. I have to I have to put a lot more thought into into what I say and I have to make sure that context is always there now. I do move differently with the things I say online and it's not in a way to censor myself. It's in a way to
make sure that anything I'm doing isn't deterring from the big picture. You know, on your platforms, the content can be so I get just different is the term, you know, you can you can post like sort of a playful food video on TikTok and then have, you know, a pretty strident set of tweets about Gaza. Like how do you think the people who follow you across these platforms take in those disparate
types of content? Like do you do you have a sense of whether or not the person who is following you on TikTok because they like your dance videos or food videos is like paying attention to the political tweets or are they seeing one and ignoring the other? Is it like a mishmosh in people's head? Is it a mishmosh in your head? Like how do you it seems so? Yeah, it just seems like like such sort of like it would induce almost like psychological vertigo. Oh my god. Thank you so
much for for being able to see that that is very representative of the chaos in my head. It's pure it's like it's it's absolutely chaos. Is it sort of just like yelling into the into into the void or is it feels like it but then I run into people on the street and they're like thank you so much for sharing that and I was like like that. It really it really hits me that these things these things do have impact and they are reaching people and if other people see it and feel the same way I did
then that is the best that I can hope for. Do you feel like there are things that you don't want to talk about or feel like you know it could could be too dangerous to the brand if if you talked about like how do you think? Oh no I'm so so so grateful that my my like my my brand as you know a public figure is completely different from my actual brand as a business owner and a designer. Is it though? Aren't they kind of one in the same? It's it's it's blended but at the same time it
is it is very the lines are very blurred. Me as a brand is the same person as as me as a person. Of course you know I it's it's a lot more glamorous and and and all of that but me as a brand actually no no it's it's not the that question the more I try to answer it the more my own mind changed about it because that's actually something I'm very very very proud of my my my brand
Cheeton is first and foremost a jewelry brand and then a bodywear brand and the thing that that I love about it so much is that we have no investors it's all me it's self-funded which means I answer to nobody if I want to donate a portion of proceeds to wherever I want to donate no one
is going to tell me no no one is going to take it away from me because they disagree with my opinions and I'm same with same with the production company that I've started people can choose not to work with me that's everybody's right but no one can take it away from me because they disagree with with my opinions what kind of stuff is the production company going to work on well for now unscripted but I'm not against you know entering the world of script it I've kind of dabbled in it a little
bit with a show called you were in Rami I was yeah yeah love I love Rami so much the the work that he does is also so inspirational and so incredible and just that show alone oh my god it makes me want to cry thinking about it if I had had to show like that when I was a teenager growing up
I really think that things would have been different it's it's it's really hard not to see yourself in in people and and having having someone that you identify with having representation in in seats at tables that you never thought were possible makes such a big difference which is why
it's important to put myself in those positions because people people need representation and and I'm not just talking about about Arab girls I'm talking about I'm talking about girls who have made decisions that they regret that the world might have written them off for
after the break Mia shares how she handles the emotional ups and downs of life online I feel like I'm really good at compartmentalizing like I'm having this beautiful conversation with you but I have Al Jazeera muted with my eyes glued to it I have two more meetings after this today and then
I'm allowed my allotted time to cry Hey Mia how are you I'm good how are you David good good um just as a as a point of clarification you know I for people who might not be familiar with all the platforms that we're
talking about can you explain sort of what's different from a business standpoint about being a creator on only fans as opposed to being an adult industry performer in a more traditional way um no contract you own all of your own content which is imperative and so important the reason
that that I am you know in the situation that I'm in is because I have no legal standing whatsoever to any of the content that was created during the time with the production company um they own all of that they own the rights they own everything it's it's such an exploitative standard contract
that gets put in front of every single girl that steps foot into those offices and I yeah that's the difference that's the reason why I if if someone is joining the sex work industry I am for them to do it on a site like only fans where if they if they actually want to go off they can delete all
of their content granted you know people leaking it and people redistributing it but it's it's watermarked it's you know the the metadata data is there and you have full control over over over your page if you want to take it down only fans has no claim whatsoever to any of that content
you know a big recurring theme in some of the things you've talked about is um sort of agency and autonomy and that includes bodily autonomy and you've you've been open online about sort of having surgery to augment your appearance and being on ozempic and do the choices to do those types of things also feel like they're coming from a place of agency and and bodily autonomy or do you feel pressure to have made those choices like is there any internal conflict there?
Not at all I and I the reason that I talk about it is because I kind of like showing the the dichotomy behind changing yourself um when I when I got my my rhinoplasty I needed to make a point of of making sure that my nose stays ethnic I I want to tweak what I don't like about it but I
still want like a strong beautiful Arabic nose and it took me a long time to find the right surgeon who understood the nuance of that and understood that plastic surgery isn't about changing yourself it's about it's about improving what you want to improve um same with my breast augmentation I had
lost 60 75 pounds very naturally when I was in my early 20s um and and my breast completely changed I didn't feel like a young woman I felt I felt it it was just a lot of excess skin I had to have a lift before I could even have my implants put in so that was my reasoning behind that and then
ozempic was um honestly it was such a big trend and I wanted to try it and then it completely took so much pressure off of me when I when I was traveling and um the food options were ordering uber eats at 11 o'clock at night and then feeling bloated for a shoot the next day and
all of these things and going on it it also it also changed my relationship with a lot of things just my just my negative mindset and outlook and relationship with food it completely changed that and then I was able to eat anything I wanted to but it would just fill me up faster so I started
to speak openly about that because I was getting a lot of compliments about how how good I loved and and you know my workout routine I felt very guilty perpetuating or or selling something that that wasn't real even though it was it's kind of it's kind of weird to promote something that's
for diabetes that people don't have access to so I struggled with with talking about it a little bit but at the end of the day there was there was a teenage girl who who I knew who messaged me and was like oh my god what's your workout routine and I had to tell her no no no no no no no that was
what made me be more open about that and are generally people supportive when you sort of pull the curtain back on these sorts of things or are people critical what's the response been honestly I don't know um I don't really care I'm open about it because I feel a sense of guilt about
getting complimented when when it's not and like it's not a natural thing I think I think gatekeeping or lying about what you've had done is the biggest sign of maybe you shouldn't have that procedure and you know I think it's a normal sort of human experience with technology to
you know you you get older and then you you just start feeling like you don't have a natural aptitude or facility with different technologies or social media platforms like I'm not on tiktok it's it's not I don't feel like I would really enjoy being on tiktok then I just feel like
this is not for me like I missed my window um do you have uh any of those concerns for yourself like your your livelihood is tied to social media do you ever think oh well maybe some new thing will come and I won't quite know how to adapt to it oh completely be real that was the worst
three months of my entire life I hated be real um wait I'm not going to pretend to know what be real is oh my god be real was this app that came out where you would get you would get two notifications a day and you had three minutes to open the app and take a photo and you only get
three chances to take the photo and it takes a photo with your front facing camera and the back camera at the same time so people like it was it was it was the only way to to organic flex if that makes sense like obviously Instagram you can you can post old photos you can you can edit
things this was the test to like prove that you're actually cool and out and doing things and I I hated that app and do you ever feel with um sort of creating content about um about avoiding burn out what does that mean well you know I'm thinking of uh like were you feel like oh I just have to
constantly be making stuff or because if I go away for a week like it's it's gonna hurt me in the algorithm not at all my mental health is more important than anything like I I'm never going to push myself to do things that I don't want to ever again and how how does your mental health feel now do you feel like you're in a good sustainable place with what you're doing?
I feel like I'm really good at compartmentalizing like I'm having this beautiful conversation with you and and my my tone is light but I have Al Jazeera muted with my eyes glued to it and I was like to this call honestly because I was checking in with with my friends and all of this is playing
out in real time but I just I've learned to compartmentalize like I have two more meetings after this today and then I'm allowed my allotted time to cry shame is it is another thing that's come up a couple times in the conversation do you have any advice for people about how to deal with shame?
oh my god everybody is so different but my my best piece of advice is to be kind to yourself and be compassionate to yourself and give yourself the same grace that that you would give a friend that you're talking to because you're never going to tell them grow up that you know be stronger like
you're never going to talk to someone that you love that way so if you talk to yourself the with the same grace that you would give other people that that starts to go a long way it's also very much easier said than done completely completely and my second piece of advice is
is fine is paying someone to do that for you of one for week a therapist to me because that's really how it works exactly exactly that's me a califa this conversation was produced by Wyatt orm it was edited by Annabelle Bacon mixing by a female Shapiro original music by Dan Powell
and Marion Luzano photography by Philip Montgomery our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly is our senior producer our executive producer is Allison Benedict special thanks to Rory Walsh for non-Barelli Jeffrey Miranda Nick Pittman Maddie Massiello Jake Silverstein Paula Schumann
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Lulu talks with senator John Federman you said that Trump has a special connection with the people Pennsylvania why there's a difference between not understanding but also acknowledging that it exists and it's like something very special exists there and that doesn't mean that I admire it it's just like it's it's it's real. I'm David Marquesi and this is the interview from the New York Times