Mel Robbins | The Part of “Let Them” Everyone Gets Wrong

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And I drove. We met at a parking lot near the airport. I handed my wife the kids and all the groceries. And then I flew to Florida, flew home. And then when I got back the next night, I made myself a sandwich from the groceries that I had just bought.

And actually the week before I took him to Whole Foods for a weekly thing and I had a phone call I had to do. They played upstairs on the playground. The Whole Foods headquarters here in Austin has a second story playground. They played on that while I did my phone call. And then together we went and did all our.

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code the daily stoic to donate or find out more welcome to the daily stoic podcast where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students.

of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives. you hey it's ryan welcome to another episode of the daily stoic podcast so as you know

I am based in Bastrop, Texas, which is this beautiful little town. It's the closest small historic town to Austin. It's got this beautiful little historic main street. Kind of honestly, we were just at Disney World as a family. It looks like the main street that Walt Disney was. trying to capture Main Street in Disneyland and Disney World. It doesn't have as many, like...

Big, like there's a couple of three story buildings, like taller buildings, which you'll see in some places in Texas. Like if you go to Lockhart, they've got a couple of taller buildings or even Smithville, which is down the street from Bastrop. Bastrop is a little kind of low slung historic town. It's called the.

oldest historic town in texas that's not exactly true i don't know why they say that but it's gorgeous right and so that's where the painted porch is down towards the beginning of main street the painted porch is there it's two buildings and then the studio which where we record the podcast is right now

And when we do events for authors, like we've done one with Jack Carr, we did one with Matthew McConaughey, it's kind of tough because the buildings are pretty small. There's not like a big event space. We can have only a relatively small amount of people. we do live events. So when Mel Robbins was coming out and she said, hey, I'm happy to do a book signing at your store. I thought, okay.

our capacity is going to be too low. I did know that there's this old historic opera house down the street from the bookstore, and I've been wanting an excuse to use it. We just hadn't had one yet. And so I reached out to our team and I said, hey, would you mind if we move this across the street to the Opera House? Now, Mel was in Austin for a big speaking gig. And one of the weird sort of behind the scenes things on speaking gigs is you usually can't do.

more than one event in the city that you're in. It's sort of a non-compete thing. And so her wonderful publicist, Nicole Perez Kruger, managed to make things work. I've actually known Nicole. for a long time. She's over at Align PR. We've worked with her a bunch of times over the years. She's awesome if you're putting something out. But my point is, she moved mountains to get...

this to happen. And so after we recorded the episode with Mel, what we did was we just walked down the street. We had a lovely little walk and talk across Chestnut. And then we took a right and ended up at the Bastrop Opera House where we had 150 people sitting.

in a building that had been there for nearly 150 years and just continued the conversation. So this is like, you know, sometimes we do part one and part two. This is basically part two of that interview with Mel, but then some other people got to ask questions as well.

I thought this was a great little chat. She was awesome. It was wonderful to see someone as charismatic and with such stage presence. I thought it was a great conversation. I'm excited to bring that to you. Make sure you listen to part one. Make sure you read Let Them Theory, not that that book needs.

My Help was the best-selling nonfiction book of 2025 and may well be the fastest-selling nonfiction book launch of all time. It's just an absolute monster. She signed copies of it, which, of course, immediately sold out. But we do have some copies.

of the five second rule and the high five habit at the painted porch if you're a big mel robbins fan thanks to mel thanks to nicole and align pr for setting this up and thanks to all of you that came out i hope to do more events like this in the future i hope you're having a good new year hope you're getting after it and i

will talk to all of you soon. Okay, so let's get into it. Okay. I thought we should start with, all these people are familiar with, but what do you find that people get wrong? about the let them theory oh there's two things i'm so glad we're starting number one that when you say let them that you're allowing somebody to disrespect you or that you're allowing somebody to hurt you

That is not what this theory is about at all. It's about when you say let them, you are not allowing anything. You're recognizing what's happening. And you're also recognizing that this situation is not going to change by changing them. That the power that you have is in the second part, let me.

Once I recognize this situation, my boss disrespects me, the person that I'm dating is treating me in a way that's very unattractive, it's below my standards, instead of living in a fantasy in my head, I say, let them. Let them... behave how they behave and let me recognize that this is the situation i am and now let me remind myself that i get to choose what's attractive i get to choose

whether or not this meets my standards. I get to choose if I'm going to spend my time and energy. And obviously in situations that are very difficult or super challenging, it takes time. to figure out how to navigate those situations it takes time to have the actions that you're going to take build up to meaningful change but just recognizing

that the situation that you're in, the power is not in trying to change them, the power is not in living in a fantasy in your head that this is changing. The power is in you recognizing what's happening and then reminding yourself that your power is in your response to it.

And you get to choose when you're ready to change. You get to choose when you're ready to leave. You get to choose how you're going to respond to this person that may never change. And so that's one misconception. The other misconception is that let them. Is it? That's not what this theory is. Let them is the easy part because it reminds, you know, rhymes with fuck them.

And I think that when you say, let them, let them, that's why it works, because you have this level of superiority over the situation, but then you're sitting with the situation. This theory doesn't work if all you do is say, let them. This theory requires you, and it's the harder part, Ryan. To then say the part, okay, let me remind myself that what I think about this, whether I come from compassion and understanding or judgment or whatever you're going to think about a situation.

And what I do, or more importantly, what I don't do. And the third thing that you can control is... okay the emotions are going to rise up that means you're a functioning adult that you have emotions you're not numb they are chemical explosions that are often beyond your control But those emotions are gonna rise up, but you know I used to be the kind of person Ryan before this that I was the idiot that you worked with. That would get pissed off about something and then I'd like write that email.

You know, it takes 90 minutes, and you go, go, go, go, go, and you're so pissed off, and you put 11 people on it, and then, what do you sign up? You're pissed. And then he hits him. And if you've ever noticed, no one responds to those emails. And so I was the person that was allowing my emotions to... make me a human reactor. And this taught me that the emotions are normal and there's things about life that are so unfair.

And there are things that are scary, and there are things that are frustrating, and there's stuff that's going to stress you out, and there's very real problems you may be facing. And your emotions... are going to come and they're going to go. But if you can start to go, okay, let them. Let them rise and fall. Take a beat. Let me remind myself that it's not going to always feel this way. And...

Let me choose how to respond and there are times guys where I don't use this I'm just a raging bitch and I Fly off the handle and then I quickly apologize and collect myself But what I've noticed that has had a very profound impact on me is that I've never actually felt so calm and peaceful. I have lived with such chronic kind of on-edge anxiety waiting for the next shoe to drop that I didn't understand that there was a way to go through life and not have everything kind of set you off.

What you said about emotion there I think is important because I think sometimes people think Stoicism is the absence of emotion. Isn't it? You've read the ancients. You achieved enlightenment and now you don't feel anything. And people go, I don't want to do that.

To me, I don't think any amount of studying this stuff makes you never get triggered, never get upset, never get worried, never get jealous, never get afraid. It's just... how far do you let those emotions take you so like you can write that angry email but then the self-control is in not hitting send

The self-control isn't the stepping back and going, hey, actually am I jealous of this person? Let me look at this larger picture. Can I be happy for them? Can I ask them questions? To me, it's like you have the emotion, but then can you not let it... make you do something that later you're going to regret. That, to me, is really where the self-control part of it comes through. Yeah, and it's been life-changing. I kind of feel like, why did it take me 54 years to figure this out?

And I didn't know. And I also feel, I don't know if any of you have ever felt this way or feel this way, like there were so many things that I wish I, like I'd be in a conversation, I'm like, why did I say that? Or I would kind of think about my day and I'd go, why would I react that way? And so there was so much judgment and questioning because I wasn't actually in control of myself because I felt so...

triggered by what was going on around me. And this really helped me to just center myself and be able to feel more in control.

I was also telling Ryan earlier, look, these are not things I'm proud to admit to everybody. It's not like it's fun to say to everybody that there's so many things I did as a parent that, my God. If I could just go back in time, which I can't, I would do differently. And I also think about the fact that I took my emotions out.

on the people that I cared most about. And we were talking about the fact that if your kids come home from a day of school and they are horrible with you, that's actually a good sign because they've been holding it together for everybody else. And you're safe to do that.

But as an adult, I shouldn't be doing that. But I was. And then I would do that thing where, I don't know if any of you have ever done this, where you like snap at everybody. You're like, I'm sorry, I work was so stressful. And my kids literally used to say to me, right? They used to say, hey, I don't work with you. So don't take your work stress out on me. The other people are paid to put up with their shit. Not enough.

But it would then sink my heart because I would promise myself that I would do better, but I didn't know how to stop the onslaught. that felt like a death by a thousand cuts all day long that I think we all feel in terms of what it's like to live in the world right now. But you have an appendix in here about parenting, because I do think this applies very much to being a parent.

If someone was trying to integrate some of this stuff into their life or into their family life, what do you think the best places to start are? I would download the appendix and it's free. You don't have to buy the book.

um it just go to i think it's melrobins.com parenting it's written by dr stewart ablam he runs an institute at mass general brigham hospital the number one research hospital in the world he's been doing it for 30 years it's called think kids And he's actually writing a book right now based on the research that we did for the Let Them Theory to apply this to parenting, and it's called With Them.

His whole premise, which I think is such a beautiful thing, and it applies to adults, is that, first of all, let's just start with the truth that everybody wants to do well. Everybody wants to thrive. Everybody wants to live a good life. And if you're dealing with a child or, I would say, an adult who's very challenging or who is not reaching their potential...

Instead of just labeling as such, take a step back and go, people do well when they can. And if they're not doing well, there's typically some skills that are missing. And for most adults, that skill is emotional management and maturity. And for kids, there's lots of different skills, from impulse control to even just sort of the social cues of like how far are your feet.

from other kids in a circle, so you're not the kid stepping up, like right in people's face, and the kids are pushing you away. And so his premise around parenting... is basically, you know, you're not going to let your kids run on the street and drink alcohol and do all this other stupid stuff. Like, you're the parent. But when you take an approach that you're not in front of them, you've got your arm around them and you're with them.

It allows you to really go side by side because your kids are so smart. You guys are doing such a great job with your kids. I mean it. And if you were to stop yourself from doing what I did... Which is trying to push my kids to change or push them to be motivated which only makes them like resist what you're saying If you go to your kids and he writes all about how you do this and all about the research and this beautiful resource that you can download in the back of the book.

If you take this approach, like, hey, buddy, you know, I notice, you know, that the grades aren't that great. How do you feel about it? And even if they're like, all they're doing is thinking about it. I mean, it's so hard to sit in a classroom and not do well. And then you say, have you thought about what you might want to do about it? And they may have an answer, they may not, but I think nine times out of ten, when you stop...

assuming and you stop, and look, I'm only saying this because I did it all wrong. When you stop trying to solve it for them and you ask them with them, have you thought about what you might want to do?

then you might be very surprised at what they come up with. Well, I also think how much of the conflict at home is about the parent. I think about this as my childhood and then now with my kids. having opinions about things that you don't need to have an opinion about right and if you can let them like what they like like who they like dress you know parents just have so many opinions

And then those opinions become sources of conflict and contention. And most of those things, in the big scheme of things, when you're looking back on their childhood... you're not going to be glad you had arguments over x well let me let me talk about though the really amazing intention behind the opinions

Because I think a lot of times what we're doing, or at least I'll just speak for myself, when I'm trying to insert myself into my middle schooler's life, is I'm getting worried that they're going to... get some sort of hard thing happening at school. To be laughed at. Whatever it may be. Fuck it all up. I don't know. You see it and you just really want to protect them. I think that's a beautiful thing.

I think it's a natural thing. But what ends up happening, or at least what happened for me, is I was constantly stepping across the line because I would cease, oh... oh we have blue hair oh god do you have to do you have to love ninja like it would just do the tips not the whole head you know and i'm starting we're going to a new school here buddy you know is that possible when i should have just loved him sure and he died the tips

And he was happy, and it was fine. But it came from a really good place, but I didn't quite understand the impact. Like, I think about how I manage anxiety with my kids completely wrong. And it's really difficult when you have a kid that is starting to spiral from anxiety. And I'm actually going through this right now. Hopefully he's very public about his stuff. And he's 20 and he's just feeling kind of lonely in college. And I'm nervous.

Because he's a real, like, thinker. And so he can get up into his head, and we're about to turn the clocks back, and it's going to be like vampire season at 4 o'clock, you know, where he is. And I'm worried about him. And I... have to check that worry and i have to let him have the dignity of his experience and let me trust

that he's going to be okay, but let me also check in in a responsible and meaningful way. But I've got to signal at you guys in a way that I'm not signaling to him that I don't think he's capable. of managing yourself through this. I'm literally reading the With Them Parenting Manual right now on this. Another example, breakups. As we were writing the Let Them Theory,

You may or may not know this. I wrote this with my 26-year-old daughter, Sawyer. We get to the part about love. We're writing the book. Brian, her boyfriend of two years. i'm talking end of the eye breaks up with her she takes the manuscript I hate this book. What am I supposed to do? Just let him break my heart. Let him sleep in other people. And I love this guy. So now, of course, I'm devastated. And I'm friends with the mom. We're devastated.

I want to make this okay. And we are having to write the love and the breakup section as she's going through it. And I, of course, want to make it okay. Yes, I want to take her heartbreak away. I don't want her to be in a depressive state. I want to, like, come in and be like, it's going to be okay, and you're going to find somebody better, and he's running ahead, but she doesn't help.

And as I'm standing there over the digital frame, have you ever had to do this? Have you ever had to delete somebody from a digital frame? First of all, why do they make it so complicated?

standing there and I'm like trying to get the delete thing and then it goes to the next photo and I'm like oh my god and so of course I'm like can I just hit pause is there a pause on this because I don't want to delete this person so I'm still holding on hope it was a gift to have that happen during this book because I realize that so much of the way that I love is to control and protect.

and make sure everything's going to be okay and bubble wrap the situation and bulldoze ahead and get her hinge profile up so we can get some positive attention going. I'm just kidding about that. And it forced me for the first time to let her breathe. To let her be in her bedroom for three days. to let her go through the experience in a way that she needed to without trying to shortchange it, without trying to make it better, but just being a witness.

To her and you know putting my arm around her like it is so hard when they're struggling you guys because you would step in front of a bus to take it away And yet what I've been learning is that the people in your life, not all of them, but most of them, are so much stronger than you think. And if you can operate in a way... where you are signaling you are going to be okay no matter what happens. You can manage this. I believe in your ability to get through this and I'm here with you.

But I'm going to let you go through this experience because I believe you are going to get through it. Like it just changes everything.

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To cook for dinner, what do we need to do? And then my wife reminded me, no, no, we had a HelloFresh box come in. Now we don't have to worry about dinner today. HelloFresh is America's number one meal kit. They've delivered over one billion meals. And the recipes take 30 minutes or less. Everything shows up at your door ready to go. No parking lots, no checkout lines, no forgetting ingredients.

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Thinking about why I think we worry so much about our kids, why we interfere, and then generally what causes, I think, a lot of anxiety, I've come to think is the idea of extrapolation. What does that word mean? We can't just let something be a singular instance. We have to think about what it's going to mean if we let them dye their hair or we let them do this.

or there's the line in Meditations where Mark Seuss was like, just that your child is sick, you don't have to think they're going to die of it. That's what I'm doing with my song right now. I'm literally already... This is going to be terrible three weeks from now. You're worried they're going to end up under a bridge somewhere. Yes. If you let them quit the piano, then they're going to be a quitter, and then they're going to drop out of high school, and then they're all of a sudden.

You're not in the present moment anymore. And I think just generally, if I think about what anxiety is, it's not allowing this to just be whatever it is. Oh, I think it's something else. Okay, well, tell me. But I think the problem is we can't just let things be what they are. We have to... We have to interpret and predict what we think they're going to end up as and that's what causes us stress and work and I think we do it because if you can if you can

envision what's going to happen, you think it's going to make you feel more in control now. And the thing about anxiety, and this is something that I wish I had known years and years and years ago, is I love Dr. Russell Kennedy, who is a neuroscientist and a medical doctor who specializes in anxiety. And he says, all anxiety is separation anxiety. I'm like, I don't think so. I don't think that's true.

I don't think it's separation." And he's like, yes it is, Val. And I said, well then, explain to me how going on a job interview and having anxiety... is separation anxiety. I'm not worried about my mother right now. And he said, no, no, no. It's separation from self. Because anxiety only happens in a moment where you feel uncertain about what's about to happen. And then an alarm kind of goes off in your body because you feel a little uncertain.

and the alarm is making you pay attention because you feel uncertain, and then you separate from yourself, and you go up in your head, and you start going, what if this, what if that, what if the other thing? And now you crank up the alarm. because you are now separating from your God-given, universe-granted ability to manage it. And so for me, I've started to think about these moments where you feel anxious as a moment not to go up here, but to drop in and to say to yourself,

I'm going to be okay no matter what happens. I can manage this. It's okay that I'm nervous. Being nervous or anxious about something might be a mentally healthy response to the situation because you care about it. You don't get anxious about shit you don't care about. And so, like, if you think, okay, instead of going up here and going, well, what if it doesn't work out?

Drop down here and go, well, what if it all works out? And what if I can manage this? And what if, like, I'm going to be okay no matter what happens? Now you're doubling down on your abilities. And you're also changing the settings up here, which quiets the alarm in here.

I didn't know any of this, by the way. This is new stuff. I wish I had had that. Can I put the grandma's pillow on? I don't think the pillows have any family history. You can stomp on it if you want. Okay, I'm not going to stomp. All right, let's do questions. Let's keep them really tight and brief. Have you seen people? Hi, everybody. Thank you for coming. Hi, Grace. All right, go for it.

okay okay so now i'm going to challenge you i'm obviously not going to refute uh the legend theory because it's affected my life profoundly already okay i'm knee deep in the rescue chapter My mom, had she not intervened when I wasn't ready, would have let me die of... addiction to drugs instead she planned for me to go to rehab i was 25 years old i wasn't a minor and yet she paved the pathway for me to do it so how do you recognize

when i'm not fully through the chapter yet but how do you recognize when someone is ready to change you talk about motivation versus influence how do you recognize you can't because you recognize when you're ready for them to change And you should continue to show up for people who are struggling. But the thing you have to let go of is the expectation that if you do the intervention and you pay for rehab...

that the person that you're trying to support is ready to do the work at that time. That's the difference. It's an understanding that you can... desperately want somebody to heal you can desperately want somebody to become sober and to be able to be sober and that is a beautiful thing and don't ever give up seeing the bigger possibility for people in your life. And you can only control what you do in terms of how you show up and support somebody.

You cannot control whether they're ready for the support. And I am so happy that you were ready to do the work because it is very hard work to change your life. Very hard work. But would you agree that there was something that had to happen inside of you that made you want to change for yourself?

100% and my mom asked me don't do it for me don't you want to do it for yourself and that was the moment that I knew and so just one more thank you number one number two on the New York Times bestseller list now we're gonna get you in 52 weeks And clearly that we're in a small town voucher shop right now with two titans of thought leadership. So I just wanted to thank you both for hosting a bit like this. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome at race.

We always hear about breadcrumbs being left behind for others to pick up along the way Y'all are probably leaving them now as you're talking as you wrote your books all the wisdom i want to hear about the breadcrumbs y'all have picked up along the way forward these could be signs or coincidence or a great opportunity that was presented in front of you

And you took it? That's an interesting idea, right? Everyone that you're following or learning from is also... following someone else or learning from someone else i think about my life was changed when someone handed me a copy of the stoics 20 plus years ago now right somebody said hey this worked for me i think it might work for you

And I think what I try to do in my work is pay that idea forward. So I try to take things that somebody told me or somebody introduced to me, and I can't pay them back, but I can pay it forward by... spreading it to other people. So that's kind of what I feel like I'm doing in my work. So I'm going to answer two ways. I see signs every day. I look for them.

If you are clear about what you want in life, and I think a lot of times one of the reasons why at least I stayed stuck for so long is I wasn't clear about what I wanted. And clarity can literally be, I just don't want this. That's enough. It's enough to say how my life feels right now, how I feel in my body right now, how I feel at this job, how I feel in this relationship, it no longer feels good.

Knowing what you don't like and how you don't want to live is actually a lot of direction. Well, I'm not a really positively motivated person. I really am more negative motivation. I need a lot of pain and I need to get to a point where like this sucks. and then I endure it for too long, and then I get to the point where, like, staying here is harder than doing something different. And so once I get clear about what I want...

The coolest thing in the world, I kid you not, is that there are signs all around you. And this is not woo-woo shit. This is the way your brain works. That when you start to get clear that your brain is not just a sponge, your brain is a spotlight. And it is waiting for you to get clear.

loud about what you want and the more and you know we did this incredible episode with this neuroscientist and neurosurgeon Dr. Jim Doty on the science of manifestation where he explains the four parts of your brain that you are bringing online to purposefully, intentionally encode in your brain the things that you want.

so that the filters in your brain and the attention network and these four networks organize themselves to start to filter the world just like your social media does as it's listening to you and all of a sudden you're like Why am I seeing lower level facelifts? Oh, because I keep complaining about my jowls. Okay, I gotta stop talking. I like my face. I like my face. I like my face. Your brain works the same way.

And I want you to listen to that episode because as he came in and spoke about this, professor at Stanford, the chairman of the Dalai Lama Institute, he was so emotional. when he left i wonder what wait was that performative or what like he was so in touch with something you could tell it was so urgent That weekend he went home and had a routine hernia surgery and it went horribly wrong and he was in the ICU for months and died and I think it was the last interview he ever gave.

And I think subconsciously he knew that this was going to be the last time he could explain his life's work. and how you can change the settings in your mind and the four different systems in your brain to help you filter the world. So you don't just see signs, because there is evidence all around you.

if you are willing to look for it. And most of us are going through life like this and the settings in our mind are from childhood telling us it's never going to work out. It might work out for Ryan or Mel, but it's not going to work out for me. you can change. The most exciting thing that I have learned recently is just we are designed to change. And that's the coolest thing in the world. And so that's the first thing I would say, is that I see signs all day long. Like, I am so moved by...

not only how this book has been received, but by the impact that it's making. And I know because I see the signs that it is not me. There is something deeply spiritual happening around our collective consciousness and the need to be reminded of what you know to be true about life. and what's in your control and operating with acceptance and compassion and understanding instead of so much judgment. And so I see the signs.

all the time. And the second thing that I will say, it just flew out of my mind. This is what happens when you're 57 at menopause. I'm sorry. The signs that, oh, oh, breadcrumbs ahead. So, um... If you go through life and you recognize, like, I feel like life, we're all on one big walk together. And there are going to be times in life where you're a couple steps ahead of me. And you've gone through something that I'm going through now.

And you can help me as we're on this walk together. And then there are times where I might be side by side and I'm just bitching about our family. That's what we do on that walk. And then there are times that I might be a little out of you. You know, oh, I went through that dyslexic thing with my son and myself, and maybe you're going through that. And so I can help you. If you take an approach that you can learn from absolutely anybody, everybody around you has something to teach you.

I walked into a bathroom the other day. Oh my god, it is. Well, I do think how you operate in a bathroom says a lot about it. No, do you thank the person that's cleaning the bathroom? I love you people. Because you know how thankless that job is? Do you know how many people walk past that person every day and treat them like the faucet? There was a woman cleaning a bathroom in an airport last week, and she was singing a song.

and she was saying good morning to everybody, that is a person we can all learn from. Because she understands the power of your energy. I love this saying that you bring the weather. You can be a bluebird sky in a sunny day. And we all know what it's like to throw open the curtains and see a day like that. It just seeps into your soul. Or you can be a thunderstorm. And I was a thunderstorm for too long. And so that's my answer.

This question is for you. As you were finding your clarity, was there anybody or anyone in particular that inspired you before you wrote? I mean, obviously you let them, but the five-second rule. Well, you know, I grew up, I'd come home from school and Oprah would be on TV. And I know that's kind of like an answer that a lot of people say, but it really, she was the first person that...

really just made me think that there might be something bigger in store for my life. And she's the first person that I saw really... doing interviews, not with celebrities, but with just normal people and leaning in and being really curious about why people believe the things they believe or how they got through that terrible accident.

or why would you want like seven wives and one of us is enough like you know no judgment if you have seven wives but you know just and so it really she demonstrated something That impacted me and so I would say her but I I think you I really take inspiration from just the oddest places because I think people have so much to teach you if you're willing to be curious and interested in other people, which I deeply am.

Thank you. Ryan, I have your Memento Mori coin, so that's what inspired me to come up here. Well done.

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Hi, this is for Mel and Ryan. I'm going to be speaking to a freshman class at Indiana University Business School all about career discovery. find most interesting about both of your careers is it started a little bit non-traditional no you had law you started in law and then ryan you started as a writing research assistant um so i love just i feel like i've seen

Steve Jobs had said, if he didn't take this one class in fonts, Apple might not be the company it is. Were there any of those moments of early career college that you were exploring that really helped set you up for the careers that you've built today? I squandered my college years. No, I didn't. I drank like crazy. I was like one of those kids that got to college and was like, woo! I'm not trying to be funny. And I was too focused on boyfriends.

and having fun and i didn't know i had chronic anxiety and i i call those the peak dysfunction years they kind of blend into law school too and i say that because I think that even like there's classes that teach you stuff and then there's the things that you learn by screwing things up. And there was a lot that I would do differently based on that.

experience in my life and i think that has informed a lot of the work that i do now because i didn't know how to change i didn't know that a lot of people felt the way that i felt I didn't know that I was actually struggling with dyslexia and ADHD and anxiety was the thing that came to the surface. I didn't know about the trauma that I didn't even remember. But the only class I can think of...

is I was... Well, I can think of two. One is I was a film major. And it was back when the film... I didn't know about it. What's that? I didn't know about it. That's interesting. Film and history. And... It was back when you had to cut the film and then stack it on the pins, kind of like those old printers. And then you had to put tape on there and I would lose myself.

in those editing bays and be up all night. And I didn't know that I had really bad dyslexia yet. Every other class I could barely get through. And the same thing happened in law school. I almost failed out of law school. And then I discovered mock trial, which is talking. And it was like a fish to water. And looking back, I can now see that the clues were there.

Because the things that come naturally to you, the things that you enjoy, are aligning with the way that your brain works and the things that are deeply held in here. and the things that are really just friction and just impossible, that's also a clue.

Yeah, I think one of the things that can happen is you can specialize too early. You're like, this is what I want to do, this is who I am. There's some advantage of sort of not knowing that because you end up having all these different experiences.

trying different things and bumping into different things it's really really important i think one of the best career advice books you could possibly read would be david epstein's book range which he's talking about how in sports the earlier you specialize you think that would be an advantage It's actually a disadvantage, not just because you can get injured from sort of repeated overuse, but because you're not developing a broad base of skills and experiences and knowledge. And so...

I had a career in marketing and I was a research assistant and then my books sort of were the combination of those two things later on. So the more you can do, the more you can try, the more weird things you can find yourself in the middle of. the more ultimately you're going to find sort of exactly your take on whatever it is that you're sort of meant to do. You know, I think increasingly, you should do the thing that you enjoy. And then you should focus on skill building.

in project management and in the skill and communication in terms of being able to stand and talk in front of people. Because those are things that are going to be a through line. through absolutely every career that you have. And if you enjoy, like I found it fascinating when I talked to Angela Duckworth, you know, she's the woman that wrote that big book on grit. I kind of miss the memo that people who have discipline and willpower...

There's a there's a fundamental through line they enjoy the thing Yes, yes, and so if you encourage people to pursue something that they actually enjoy they'll probably be really good at it because they're going to want to spend time at it. And if you then supplement it with some skill building, and I think I call it clipboard mentality. I tend to hire a lot of firstborn daughters.

Yes, right? You know what I'm talking about. Type A, like, can't handle. And I didn't mean to, but there's this clipboard mentality of they will run you over before they will not get. their to-do list stuff. And that is a project management skill that is universal in people that anybody can learn. And we're gonna need it. And then also learning how to stand up in front of people.

and express yourself, because especially for the women in the audience, it's very important to hear, based on the research, there's only one behavior that translates to getting a promotion at work for more money or a title change.

It's, are your contributions known? And it's not your boss's job to make your contributions known, it's your job. And so if you sit silently in a meeting, or you're uncomfortable... advocating for yourself or talking about the things that you're working on you will get passed over because everybody is so overwhelmed they don't even know what they're working on so they definitely don't know what you're working on.

So that would be if I were going to do what you're going to do, that's what I would tell them. Thank you. All right, we've got 10 minutes and three questions. So we'll go here and here. That's it? Are you having fun? Do you have to come? Okay. What time is it? I don't know what time it is. Go for it. Hi, my name is Nanette. Hello.

So I really get the leckman theory with people and how it works, and it's been helpful. When I was listening here, I got like a lot of like... downloads and new thoughts. So I live with stage 4 breast cancer and so my life is essentially constant anxiety about unknown things.

like the common word of cancer is anxiety you know it's a word that should be in the dictionary so like can i mean i think i know the answer but can i do let them with things that aren't people like let the scan results be what they're going to be yes and then but the let me part is harder because it's like my entire life okay i can't even imagine because i am not living your life And here's a sign, by the way. So we're talking about looking for signs. I just...

Interviewed. Yeah. 10, 20 people have sent me that podcast. No, I haven't published this one yet. Oh, I thought you were talking about the doctor. No, and now I know who I was interviewing her for. Thank you. You. I interviewed Dr. Aaliyah Crum. who is a Stanford professor whose entire work is about settings in the mind. And she has done all this crazy research. You know the milkshake study? Oh, this is so cool, you guys. So I'm going to tell you the milkshake study so I can prove to you.

that her research is really interesting and it might work. Because I can give you the information, but if you don't have the hope that it might work, you won't try it. I'm going to tell you the study. The study's fascinating. It's called the Milkshake Study. Dr. Crum did this study. And here's how the setup works. Okay, we're all in the study. Monday morning at 9 o'clock, we've got to show up faster.

and we go into the lab and they present us a milkshake. Now, the milkshake is 300 calories, okay? That's the fact. But when we get this milkshake on Monday morning, Dr. Crumb says, here's your milkshake. And it has a label on it that's like, sensible milkshake. And she tells you it's 150.

calories and it's a really good choice it's very sensible choice and you and i drink the milkshake now meanwhile they got us hooked up to all kinds of stuff and ivs and everything else so they can measure our biology And what's fascinating is that even though it's 300 calories and has a certain nutritional component,

Because she changed the settings in your mind to believe it's 150 calories and it's a sensible choice, your body continues to release this hormone, I'll get the name wrong, like ghrelin or something like that, which is the hunger hormone. Because your mind is signaling to your body that this is not enough. So your body is responding to the settings in your mind. So then Wednesday we go in fasted, and it's 9 o'clock in the morning, and here's your milkshake.

It's 300 calories. The same damn thing they fed us on Monday. Okay? Vanilla milkshake. Only this time the wrapper's pretty and it's decadent milkshake. This one's 600 calories. This one's luxury. Oh my god, you deserve this. Decadent thing. Again, changing the settings in your mind. Your body, when you drink... What you believe to be the 600-calorie milkshake does not release the hunger hormone because you are signaling to your body that you are satiated. Now, here's the gift for you.

They have been studying and have not released this, and she talked about it on the podcast, the settings in the mind that are working for cancer patients. Their research is showing that when you say to yourself over and over, I can manage this. I can manage this. And then you add in. my body is capable of handling this. Those are the settings based on research that signal to your body a calmness.

what you need. Because one of the things that you know is managing your stress response is really important so that your beautiful, intelligent, amazing immune system... can work with the treatments and the one thing that i do know is i do not know what's going to happen but i know you're not going to go through this alone and i know you can manage it thank you so much and this has also helped

going to help a lot of people because I also work as a cancer coach and like developing some sort of verbalizing around anxiety is one of my goals and I haven't been able to do it because I have it and so when that podcast comes out in your words today. Well, you can start using it now. Here's why you haven't been able to do it. And here's why you have anxiety. Because it's a mentally healthy response to what you're going through.

To me, it would be weird if you weren't anxious. But you, in those moments of uncertainty, can double down that you have the ability to manage it. And that is going to help you manage it. And because you have anxiety, if you use that research and it does start to help... Now you can speak with a level of conviction because you're not just reading it or hearing about it like I have. You actually experienced it. And that's such an incredible thing.

Thank you. You're welcome. Hello. I have a question for both of y'all.

How do you balance giving yourself grace while holding yourself accountable for your goals? One of my favorite lines from Marcus is, he says, tolerant with others, strict with yourself. Obviously, I do think holding yourself accountable is important because you're the only one that can really hold yourself accountable. At the same time, instead of trying to hold myself to some impossible standard, I try to think, like, hey, am I getting better? Am I doing my best?

It's really hard if you are holding yourself against some sort of objective standard, or as I said, some impossible standard, and then you're mad because you lost, or you're mad because you didn't do this, you didn't beat this person. i try to measure myself against myself uh which uh you know is nice because i've got plenty of flaws and problems and i'm just thinking about am i getting better than i was before

I'm not always going to be perfect, but that's how I'm trying to think about it. Am I getting a little better than I was before? I think it's a great question. Because you're not a robot. And I think one of the real skills in life... is not what you do on the days you feel great, but what do you actually do on the day that you don't feel good.

And what do you do on the day after you, like, really messed up yesterday? You didn't do what you said you were going to do. Are you the kind of person that just says, that's it, you beat yourself up, or... do you have the ability, which is a skill, to recognize that life happens. And if yesterday you blew it, if you can wake up today and have grace for yourself and say, okay, you know, I'm not going for a perfect streak here.

But I'm going to pick myself back up and I'm going to go back out on the walk today. Yeah, and there are going to be times in your life where you're going to not do it for five weeks. And that's okay. like i think about change like going up a big staircase and you go up and then you hit a level and when i have those streaks where i'm not good about looking at my phone in bed

or I'm spending too much time looking at my phone at night, or I maybe don't go to the gym for a week, I'm on a level. But the thing to keep in mind that I think is really important... is that you still went up that staircase and you don't lose that game. And the secret is on those days to remember that the progress that you made isn't gone.

And that's how you give yourself the grace for life to happen. And then just remind yourself, at any point in time, you can write, oh, I want to land it. That's all that happened. And I'm allowed to be human. And I'm going to start climbing the next white stairs. And that's really the powerful muscle, the one where you're on the level to say, hey, I'm going to take one more step here. It's not the 500th step in a row that's that hard. It's when you're at the level to go.

I'm not going to stay here. I'm going to try to go a little bit further. Well, and I'm going to give you one more piece of advice. Ready? So I am really stubborn and I will not hold myself accountable. So I have to set traps. For example, I do not sleep next to my phone because I will grab it. And it's across the room because that's a trap.

When the alarm goes off, I know I'm unmotivated. And if it's going off across the room, now I'm mad at myself because I have to get out of bed. And I know that if I leave it up to Mel... to decide whether or not I feel like exercising. The answer is no. And so you know what I do? I set a trap. I pick out my exercise clothes at night. And I lay him on the floor of the closet like a giant middle finger waiting for me at 6 o'clock in the morning.

And it's one less decision and it helps me deal with the fact that I am a human being that oftentimes doesn't want to do what I don't feel like doing. I think especially for women or if you're going through a stressful period in your life or you're caring for aging parents or your kids are going through a tough time, your ability to stay focused and be disciplined plummets.

And so these are little churches. Here's another one. I set a filled water bottle in front of the coffee maker like a linebacker waiting for me. I fill it the night before because I want to... I want to drink water before I have coffee. And so when you find that you're not able to stick to something, before you beat yourself up, please take a step back.

Please ask yourself, is there a little system I could create here? A little trap I could set so that I don't have to think so much, it's just right there? Is there a way I could make this easier for myself? Is there a post-it note I could stick on the mirror? Is there... Like, you know, could I take extra time at night and pack my own lunch because I'm constantly letting myself down because I don't have enough time in the morning. So before you indict yourself...

for not being able to really be disciplined. Just be like, can I just make this easier? And that's a form of grace that's like time travel. It's grace for the future because you're making it easier for you to make the right decision. when it comes up yes thank you you're welcome and that's perfect because thank you mal for just sharing all your little tools as a 50 something also those tools just

mean everything. Thank you for putting them in books. And Ryan, thank you for actually teaching me history. It's the only history I want to learn. Thank you so much. Here's my question. I don't know if you guys know this. The world is really heavy right now.

kind of sucks you know i want to know what is bringing you joy right now that's a really important question because there's a really incredible medical doctor and she's a principal investigator. for the FDA. Her research institute is the lab that did all the testing that got the first ever postpartum drug approved. She's such a badass.

And she's just done the first ever research on what they're calling high-functioning depression, which I think we all have right now. You're able to get to work. You're able to... like go through the motions you're able to like kind of pay the bills and get it all done if you are feeling disconnected from yourself you're feeling a sense of hopelessness and overwhelm And her prescription as a medical doctor who's been researching this in this incredible research institute is small moments of joy.

because it's almost like small moments of joy fill you up a little bit. It's like putting on a life jacket that keeps you above the water. so you don't slip under it. And for me, I, despite the fact that it feels like the world is slipping off its access, and that there are things that are... tremendously wrong right now. I am actually very hopeful and very optimistic because I refuse to believe that the majority of us agree with

the extreme 5% of voices that dominate 90% of the headlines in social media, I just refuse to believe it. And I know that... The majority of us all want the same things. We believe the same. We may disagree on how to get there. And I know that people are waking up and people are saying, we're better than this.

Like, I gotta start, like, just talking to people and I gotta start really aligning my life with my values instead of self-silencing and letting all of this weigh me down. I gotta re-engage in my community. And small moments of joy remind you that there is meaning in life, in your life, even when things seem overwhelming. And that doesn't mean there aren't problems.

But if you allow things that you can't control and all of the scary shit that's going on to put you in a state where you're paralyzed, you're silent, you're now so weighed down. If you allow that to happen, then you can't do your part to be part of the force for good. You can't wake up in the morning and go into the coffee shop. Because you can go into the coffee shop and be like, good morning. The woman cleaning the bathroom in the airport is part of the force for good.

She's reminding us of our better nature. And so I, all day long, despite the terrifying things that are going on and the division that is so unnecessary, I... force myself to find things to be optimistic about. And a lot of it for me is nature. Like, I live on a mountain. When I hear those owls hooting, I just take a moment. When I see a mom with a baby on a swing, I drop into that. When I sit in an Adirondack chair and I am having a cup of tea, I look at the steam coming up.

When I see a neighbor helping another neighbor, here's proof to know that we are more alike and people want the same things. If you have a disaster hit, look how everybody shows up. And so I think joy reminds you of what you know to be true. It reminds you that there is more to life than the headlines and what's happening right now. And if you can find small moments to be present, to be joyful, to be connected with your kids and your family, if you can find time to volunteer in your community.

and you're up close with your neighbors, even if you think you disagree, you'll realize you actually agree on a lot of things. I think it's the answer, honestly. It's about cultivating, I think, the...

the eye that you look at the world with. Like, those are all a number of very perceptive observations that you just had about beauty in an ugly... world right you can you can choose to see all the horrible things that are happening in the world uh most of which are big most of which are obvious or you can sort of hone that kind of poet's eye to see what's wonderful and great and pretty I was walking my dog on a dirt road.

And I was eating a plum-pricot. Do you know what that is? Apparently they're still inventing new fruits. It's like an apricot and a plum fused together. And I was like, holy shit, this is a new... I've never had this flavor before in my life, and it didn't exist earlier. This is... amazing and the ability to see that in the midst of chaos and destruction and division as you said it's really important because that's partly what they want right they want you

to be joyless to be angry to give up on human beings so they can do what they want right and i think the most important task for everyone in this room right now and for all time is to not let assholes turn you into an asshole right to not let cruel people make you cool like the stoics say the best revenge is to not be like that and if you think that they are cruel and awful and shitty and all of these things like

It's a powerful transgressive statement to not be those things. That's the job. I agree. And here's one other thing I want to say. Because narrowing your focus to things that actually... give you faith in life again. It's not about tuning out what's happening. That's not what the message is for me at all. I know it's not what you're saying either.

See, I really believe the research of Dr. Adini Nurkar, who is one of the world's leading experts on stress. And you know how when we were in the pandemic, people, especially educators, were like, we're not going to know the impact of this for years. Well, I think we're seeing the impact of it. I think what happened when people went into lockdown and there was so much uncertainty and it was so sustained that...

Everybody went into a stress response and fight or flight because we are not designed to live through that much uncertainty that was constant. And your body doesn't reset automatically. You have to intentionally recognize that you are in a state of chronic stress. You're on edge all the time. The amygdala is running the show. The self-criticism is louder than ever. The procrastination is louder than ever. The energy is like out of your body.

These are all medical signs because stress is a medical state. And her research says that 83% of us are in that state right now. And if you take that as a medical fact, which I do, and you recognize the research... which i do that when somebody is in the medical stress state you're on edge oh my god like i can't focus why am i more of why do i doom scroll more than ever why am i like what is going on with this

When you take that as a fact, what's also true, medically speaking, is your prefrontal cortex can't work the way it's supposed to. So your strategic thinking goes out the window.

Your critical voice gets louder. Your ability to regulate your emotions gets worse. And so one of the reasons why it's so important to really have that I... on things that bring you into the moment is it's a way to reset the stress response it's a way for you to dial down what i think the pandemic stirred up in everybody and

When you do that, this part of your brain comes back online. And you can think more clearly. And you can focus. And you can regulate your emotions. And when you start to feel better... you do a little better. And if we're ever going to be able to fix a lot of the problems or overcome the division or start to have conversations the way people used to and work together...

We have to all get out of a stress response so that we can do that with one another. And so I also think from a larger standpoint, that's why it's important. Thank you for coming out. Thank you. I really appreciate it. This was amazing. We appreciate it. No, I appreciate you coming out. Really good. Have a great day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

for spending time with us tonight thank you for being here thank you for being interested and feeling better i mean it because it starts with you if you start taking a little bit better care of yourself That's the best way that you can help your family. That's the best way you can help your community. Because when you start to really take your happiness and your health and your stress seriously, and you take the little steps that...

that make you feel a little bit better. Please don't underestimate how powerful you are when you do that for yourself. So thank you for being here. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.