You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. The podcast. It goes deeper in to topics and segments that originally aired on The Daily Show. This is what you gotta think of this podcast as, right, Like, if the Daily Show is the reality show, we're the reunion show where we all get to come together and talk about never before seen action. You know that of course
sets the record straight dramatic cuts. Today we're talking about kpop and how this isn't an industry that just started booming. This has been a profitable market for decades, with bands like BTS and Black Pink and global fandom that helps South Korea in both the entertainment and economic sectors. Give it a clip.
The next big step towards today's K pop was in the nineteen nineties, when major music studios started putting performers together in boy and girl bands. All right, Korea was doing that long before Simon Cowell's Nips Ever started poking through his T shirts. That's a no for me, dog, No surprise, This new wave of K pop blew up around the world. It featured complex melodies unlike any other
pop music and always had next level dance choreography. To this day, those remain the signature elements of K pop. That and being Asian very important requirement. This new generation of K pop stars became so successful the government started to take notice and soon LUNT a program to promote career music around the globe. They saw K pop as a way to boost Korea's cultural strength and economy without having to do a squid game.
To help us break this down a little bit more in the Beautiful Beautiful Beyond the Scenes Mothership, I am joined by daily show segment producer Sabrina li Sobrina.
Hello, Hi, thanks for having me.
That's mine, that's my NPR voice. How are you doing it? We're here to discuss Korean pop news. You're ready for a moving discussion?
Abou Korean pop?
And they just start NPR, they just start trailing. Also joining us is a postdoctoral associate at the University of Buffalo in their Asian Studies program, Stephanie Choi is here. Stephanie, how are you doing good?
Thanks for having me.
Let's get into this now. You all both grew up in South Korea, and I would assume that you're both early K pop fans. Uh Sabrina. I'll start with you speak to me about the impact of K pop on your life. Like the only thing I can even try and compare it to to even an attempt to understand what that music means for your country. It's just what hip hop meant for black culture in the nineties, where it just it was me, it was us, it was blackness, it was everything that like, oh my god, I'm we're
into it, We're doing dances. Like what was that like when you were younger growing up in South Korea.
I think that's a really good comparison because it really was part of my huge identity. And then like that's all I will talk about with my friends. And I actually thought about this yesterday while I was preparing, Like at school, we would have this desk, and I would have like stickers of my my group, my idol, and then like would put them on my desk and I would put them on like my books, on my like my pencils, you know, Like I was obsessed with them, and that's all I will talk about. And I was
very proud to be part of like that fan club. Now, my group was TVXQ in English and Korean. Their called Tumbanshingi. They were like the second generation of K pop idol when K pop was going to like Japan and then like other countries like in Asia, not Europe or America at this time, but for that, I think that's when
it kind of started. I was like very proud to be part of that because I always felt like like, oh, like this is my group, and like I am raising them, Like I think that's what a lot of like K pop fants feel like, like not like motherly feeling, but like I am raising this people, and then like I want everyone to know about my group because they're they're great. You know.
The thing I always found interesting about just as an outsider, and of course I was not aware of K popo well into my late twenties and thirties, but as an outsider, it was, wow, these kids are all the same age as all the kids that were like new addition was always just a little bit older. Yeah, you know, they were the same thing with new kids on the block and seeing they were always just three four years older than me, so like, oh, that's what I want to be,
that's who you want to be. But it's like it seemed like it was almost as if witnessing the matriculation of your peers, which made it easier to root for them in a way, like Stephanie, for you, what was your introduction into that world.
When I was young, I'm the I'm the first generation. I. Everyone loved ahot and I was one of them, you know, like everyone loves hot, so like you joined that, you are you know, naturally introduced to it through your friends. And then you know, I had this teenage rope when you know, you feel like you're special, So, oh, no, are K pop for me? But it's more like Korean rock, you know. So I spent the whole middle in high
school years cheasing after this rock group. And then it was actually after I entered my m A program here in the States. Uh. By then I was already in my late twenties, and American K pop fans came up to me. You know, oh, I heard that you're from Korea, and you know, like, have you heard of Big Bang? Have you heard of Girls Generation? And I was like, that's for teenagers, right, But then I realized that, oh wow, like these adult fans are really you know, into K pop.
So I got into K pop pretty late. And while I was doing my PhD. You know, like in fandom studies they suggest you to become a fan by yourself, and I was like, how can I become a fan? You know, you have to It's not like you can be a fan through by by trying, you know, to be a fan. So I was I was kind of trying, you know, I was following you know, Girls Generation and then some other groups, and then you know, it came
in Korean. In Korean it's called the talk too. It's a combination word of of fan activity, you know, fanning and car accidents. So it comes like a car accident all of the sudden, you know, you just become a fan. And I got into Exo so bad, and it's been already nine years ius, so it's my heart for Kai and began like everyone has Vecian in their heart. It's getting bigger and bigger. I'm a huge fan of Exo and also Shiny. I'm mostly a fan of s that entertainment.
How has k pop, in my opinion, in a way that other music genres has not been able to do, is really plug into their fan base and get their fan base to really be active, like it just break down these tears of fandom, because like the only thing again that I can compare it to. I remember back in the day, if I really like boys to men, I could write a letter to Jive Records and they would send back a poster and go, yeay, roy enjoy
the boys demand poster. Hey you're a fan? Like, all I need to be a fan was a poster from a magazine. I'd get the sore so or right on, that's a deep cut that only specific black people over forty are going to get. But you would get a poster and that was it. You were saying, that was it. It wasn't this whole fucking airline frequent flyer gold silver medallion tears. Break break that down for us real quick.
Stuff it and and let me know as well as Sabrina, like, how did that make you want to be more of a fan?
Like?
Is it bragging? Right? Just break that down for us first Stephanie.
It's really connected to the participatatory culture of Korean popular music scene. But if we look at the current scene, I would say the relationship is really the relationship between capob idols and fans are really centered around the transaction of intimacy. So you basically maintain both parties are trying really hard to maintain this exclusive relationship between the two. So there are many different marketing strategies there. One is
to understand each other through a persona. So you understand idols as you know, the group persona. So for BTS it would be, you know, you understand them as BTS members. The BTS members, on the other hand, would understand fans not as individuals or too little strangers to them, but through the fan persona, the fandom persona, so they you know, once they meet these individuals, they would understand them as BTS armies. Exclusive intimate relationships.
Right, So when you became a fan like and you sign up per se, does that create a sense of bragging rights to your to your to your friends and your classmates.
Yes, Also that you also feel like you're part of this huge group you know, other than your family or like your school, you know what I mean. It's like joining like a different friend group that's so big. That's like obviously it's on the internet, but you know, like you just talked about boys to men, did you guys have like a name for the fans who loves But that's the thing I think that's very unique for K pop, Like right now we have bleevers for Justin Bieber, like
Swifties for Taylor Swift. But like a lot of these, I mean not a lot, almost every K pop and their fan club fandom. I think that's what they call it these days. Back in our days, Stephanie and my days, we call it fan club. But I think now it's so global and international they call it fandom. But anyway, like all of this fan club has a name, so like it has its own identity. You know, it's not even only the name. They also have like each group has their own color. So my group, the TVXQ our
balloon collars was pearl red. So everyone, all the fans if you go to concerts or if you go to this like music programs in Korea, like in the broadcast like stations, you would wear per red and or you would hold like the balloons that's per red, you know what I mean. So's everyone has a very strong identity. I think that's very easy, right, And then you talked
about the tears. When I joined the TVXQ fan club, I would join it, and it's like earning miles for airlines, so I would have to take this quiz, and the quiz questions would like so absurd. It would be like what would be this members like childhood pet's name, And if I don't get it right, I will not be able to go to the next tier of this fan club, like it's a fan page.
How devastating is that?
So devastating? So I would be like, while I need to study, you know, for my school stuff, I'll be studying my idol group and like their childhood and like googling and all this stuff, and I will be getting all these quizzes right, and I will make it to
the next tier. So you become like almost addicted to it, you know what I mean, because like you get it right and the perks to that, then you would be able to see these exclusive photos that you won't you weren't able to see when you were like the tier below.
So it's not even paywalled. It's just proved to me your loyalty and.
Then true love, Like are you how obsessed are you? Can you prove it? You know? Like and I was truly obsessed with that.
That's beautiful. That's low key some pre social media level marketing and in terms of rewarding people, and not even in a bad way, just the idea of I'm going to reward you a little bit.
You get it, Yes, exactly, because back then, like for first generation k pop and second generation k pop, we didn't have social media, so like these members of K pop groups weren't able to go on Twitter and talk directly to the fans, or like go on Instagram live and talk to the fans directly. So I think that was like our way, my way to like, I'm not having a real conversation, but I feel like i am because I'm learning so much about that, I'm proving my
like devouted love for them, you know. So that's why I think it kept me going.
At the same time, you know, when you take all those puzzes and get into that community, it's a it's an extremely closed community. So you have this very exclusive communication with your idol, you know, not you don't have to deal with haters or antis or reporters who might be you know, hiding somewhere and learking there, you know, looking for some some scandals or rumors or some conflicts
between fans or idols and fans. But at the same time, it also gave more privilege to Korean fans because you know, these quzzes were changing every week or twice a week, so like you have to keep up with it.
And international fas too.
Had to translate it. And by the time they translate that, the stet of quzes were already you know, changed to a new one. Nowadays, I think a lot of them have changed to just you know, through payment you earn membership. Wow and yeah, yeah most yeah.
Now, Stephanie, the depth to which you can speak to this goes really, really far. Because you wrote a dissertation on K pop fandom and the intricacies of it. What made you go this is interesting? Like was it? Was it the marketing aspect of it? Was it the human connection and the familial aspect of it? What made you go, oh, that's interesting, let me keep it Because you know, journalists and professors and educators you find a thread and you just keep pulling and pulling, en it and pull them in.
What was it about K pop fandom where you went, yes, I need to know more about this phenomenon.
The first thing that I found interesting was how many protests that were going on within the kypop fandom, and it was, you know, every time some idol gets married or you know, do something you know wrong or primary related. These fans would protest against their own favorite idol uh and the mass media would describe them as crazy fangirls. But at the same time, what was fascinating was that the company and idols were readily accepting their request. So
I found that interesting. How you know, like from the outside they look delusional, you know, disorganized, hysterical, like these are the crazy bangirls. But at the same time, the way the company and idols reacted was more like, you know, there's some sort of rules and norms that theah outsiders wouldn't know. So I started from there and then found out that these female fans are actually they have a long history of organizing their own fandom. They are very
active at political and cultural and social issues. They are very well organized. They know how to make their voice, and they know how to negotiate. So yeah, that was the starting point.
The dissertation is titled gender Labor and the Commodification of Intimacy k Pop? How much do the artists and the record labels essentially the labels who control the artists, And that's global And that's not a criticism of k pop, The labels control the artists and music and all of music. How much does the influence of the fans. How much of it is constructive criticism versus na man, y'all, wiln. If that's who he wants to date, that's who he can date. You're not going to tell the k pop
group member who he should and shouldn't be dating. Or does that go into like just if we really want to get into the weeds here, does the label pull this person aside and go, hey, you kind of don't need to date that person because it's going to mess up the ticket sales for the next year. Could you keep that relationship on the low? Or if you're going to be with her, tell her to dress different because it's scaring the fans.
It's not about dating, per se. I would like to make that clear. It's not about the dating itself, but it's more about how fans want to get back of what they have invested in. So a lot of fans these days perform as promoters of their own idols. The
idol market is so saturated, so competitive. You want to promote your idols out there so that you can also you know, make your idle famous and popular and eventually get more profit and that would lead to a better production for their next album, and then you you know, in return, you get better quality of performing production next time. So that's the that's the key pole system. So the difference between idols and non idol musicians is that idols
basically perform fan service. So you not only perform music and dance, but you also provide some sort of fantasy to your fans, assuming that you're in this, you know, intimate relationship with your fans.
If I could make an American comparison, it would be justin Timberlake and Britney Spears. When they were dating, it was like the beautiful unification of two fan bases. Oh, that's the greatest thing ever. And then when they broke up, they were like, oh no, And Timberlake took a hit for a second because he broke up with Brittany. How could you do that to Brittany. I'm not a fan
of your music anymore. So I know it's not a one to one in terms of American American music to K pop, but just the idea of how much influence do the fans have on the evolution of an artist's career in K pop.
The idle fan relationship in K pop is really centered around this idea of you know, in terms of male idols and female fans, for instance, it would be, you know, the male idols will be the boyfriend, female fans will be the girlfriend. And if you look at the all the video promotions and song productions, you'll see that as quite promoted based on that logic. So historically, if you look at the whole generation starting from the nineteen nineties,
it really prioritized idol's chastity in public. So nowadays, you know, there's social media, you he has already know who's dating who. You know, there's no student, Yeah, they just close their eyes.
Compare the fan bases, because it sounded like y'all like way bigger on being connected with the artists than Americans have ever been. There is no great musician that has had a fan base that I feel like is just wild than Michael Jackson. And I can't think of a name of anybody, like nobody was called the Jackson's the jackson Ears, the glitter gloves like color, yeah, the neverlanders like nothing. There was no colors to Michael Jackson.
Concertain faint actually there was Bodlemania.
Beatlemania, yes, but since then it's it's not a regular occurrence because I wonder if Beatlemania was more of the state of everyone being crazy about the Beatles, or did it instantly identify with it. Well, no, yeah, Beatlemania is probably the closest that we've had to anything in a long ass time. You know, I would argue, but how would you all compare the fan basis, Sabrain, I'll start with you, like, in terms of Korean K pop fans
versus American K pop fans, are we getting there? Are we still behind the curve like we are?
One? I think Swifties are there, Like I don't think they have their own color, but like they're obsessed with her and like they like, like, you know, I saw these trends. Every time she posts something, they like dissect every object in that video and think like, oh, this clock said it's five o'clock, so like the next album's coming out on like May fifth, you know, like they go crazy like.
That, but it's ticketmaster to talking to Congress.
But I know, but like that's exactly what I think these K pop fans do as well. So I think Taylor Swift very specifically to her. I think the kind of culture exists here and I can't speak to like the American fans who love K pop because I'm not American, and I love K pop because it was the only pop I knew, you know, when I was in Korea.
But like you said, it's so the personal identity of this each fan club is so strong, and there's also like competition between other fan clubs, like, oh, I'm gonna make my idol sell this much album like for you know, for the new release, I'm gonna buy ten, and then my friend will be like, well, I'm gonna buy twenty for my idol.
You know.
It's like a competition between them too, and since it's so personal like that, and then like I told you, like I have to take all these stupid quizes to make it to the next tier. I spend so much time to it, and I think that's where this intimacy, or I think it's intimacy that I have a real relationship with these idols, which I don't, but that's what I think I do because I spend so much time to it.
You know.
I think it's very well known that Korean like idols can't date each other, you know. I think that's where a lot of these things come from, you know. But but like these label companies they do have a dating band, universal dating band, like and then like I don't know if it happens these days, but back in my days, the label companies would like take your phones away so then you won't be able to like text whoever, you
know what I mean. It was very strict. I don't know if it's still like that, but it used to be like that just so that they could like protect that persona that stuff. And you talked about like you're this imagining boyfriend or imaginary girlfriend that like these middle school girl things that you are, so you need to like protect that image. I think that's where it's, like, you know, it all comes from.
After the break, we're gonna talk a little bit about how these K pop stars are made, the actual recruitment of talent, the development of the talent, how they get to become Korean pop stars and idols, and we'll see if if it's too late for a forty four year old black man to go register for one of those K pop academies and see if I got the moves just beyond the scenes. We'll be right back beyond the scenes.
We were talking about the world of K pop here what I would love to do define K pop as a genre as because me ignorant American man from Birmingham, Alabama didn't meet my first Korea until the eighth grade, which is that's a true statement. By the way, I fell in love with a group called Epic High. So my introduction to K pop was FIFA video games back in the day. My introduction to just international music as
a whole was video games. The music they would play in the menu when you're choosing your team and making modifications so you squad. That's how I learned about most music that they do not play on traditional terrestrial radio and American So Epic Hi had this song called Fly Fly Hi, and it was so optimistic, beautiful and aspirational. I didn't know what they were. I still don't know what they was talking about in the verses, but when they got to the hook, it was so beautiful. You
can fly higher, higher than the birds in ah. And then I watched the video. The video for this song is a robbery and a man's carjacking in Eventually the man is killed by police sniper at the end of the video. It is the darkest dichotomy of optimism and hopelessness. It was beautiful, That's what made it so beautiful. And then I go to talk to one of my friends, like like years later the K pop I go, yeah, I like EPICAI and that's not.
Capo hip hop, but is Korean Korea.
And I've never felt more like an accidental racism in a moment. So let's just straight up define K pop as a genre as it differs from every other type of means that comes out of Korea. So I don't sound stupid.
I think it's it. Epici is hip hop artist. So like if you tell some like Epici fans, I do believe they have their own names too.
Okay, I'm gonna join that group. I know I'm a little late to the party.
If you tell their fans that they're K pop, they would be offended because they're above kve pop, like they're real artists. Now, I think that sense where it comes from is because when you become K pop idols, this label company has like signed you a training contract, which I don't think it exists in America, Like for example, like In America, I think you just upload a video on YouTube you singing, and then somebody sees you and they sign you, and then you become an artist more
or less. In Korea, you have to go to like this training school and they made you sign a trainee contract where you have to follow whatever they tell you, whether that's taking Chinese class whatever, like English class, philosophy class, dance class, music class, or like going on a diet and I'm gonna check your weight every week. All that
maybe some of the dark sluss exactly. So like a lot of idols go through that process and then this big label companies they also have like a concept of like, oh, the next idol group that I'm gonna make, it's gonna be five cute girls wearing school uniforms talking about their
first love like innocence. So like even if that's not who you are, if you signed this training contract and you became part of this group, like you're gonna be that, Like that's your image going forward, Like are you following me when I say so? But like Epicai was not that, you know, like they were.
It's a creative autonomy from the jump exactly.
So I think I think that's that's the difference.
Talk a little bit if you can, Stephanie just about the idea of because you're going into these academies, you got to be going, like I would imagine, somewhere between ten to twelve years old, to come out thirteen to fourteen polished, so we can get a good ten year runway out of you. You know, as an artist, how
much you know? In America we talk about the idea of child stars and not knowing how that corrupts the psyche of a child on the backside of it, when they're done with stardom and they're twenty eight and trying to figure out what the hell they want to do and they're finally not famous for the first time in their life. How much of a kid's childhood are they sacrificing to these camps? How much of your youth are you trading in exchange for this attempt at being a huge global megastar.
When they're too young, when they're preteen, the companies wouldn't sign idle training contracts because they're too young. They might change their dreams. You don't know. They only sign trainee contracts right before they make their debuts, so right before you know, they when they already invest in all the album production and you know they already have the debut the so called debut team. But until then, usually these trainees spend as short as six months and as long
as eight years. You know, if you make your debut in a pretty late age of twenty or twenty two. You know, in terms of childhood, I actually get lots of questions from mass media, especially from Western mass media, you know how abusive the kpole system is? Do they even have childhood? And I, you know, tell them back, you know, it's this exceptional and k pop though, you know, in all fields across performing arts and sports, like, what kind of system allows you to you sleep?
Well?
It will you know, do all the things that you want to do and still be the best. So I'm not saying that, you know that there's.
A trade off regardless.
Of I'm not saying that the environment is not abusive, but I would say that, you know, it's it's it's the problem of the system. So do we ever talk about and also the perspectives that Western mass media brings into K pop? Do we ever talk about diet plans of the horrible diet planes of ballerinas. Do we talk about you know, marathon or other Olympic athletes daily routine of you know, practicing or or or pianists, famous pianists, you know, practicing for like six seven hours a day. Like,
isn't that abusive? How can we never talk about that?
You know, well, because that's American. We don't talk about American stuff. We got to criticize.
You're already very used to it. So you know, all of a sudden, you know, you you find this new thing called k pop, it's a new performing arts and you know, like these kids are so abusive. They're going to this boot camp, you know, uh, harassed by the adults.
But you know it's not a yes or no question, but it would be more about then, you know, how do adults within this industry, what kind of what kind of efforts do they put in to protect uh these trainees at best, and I would say for the company, they arrange all the you know, once they they move to the dorm, which is often close to the company building, they would you know, rearrange all this school uh new schools.
And then also you know, sometimes if it's need it, then the trainees would you know, the companies would provide lessons for the trainee schoolwork, and then there are also allowed not allowed to you know, practice during the night time. But then there are always legendary stories of you know, successful idols sneaking into the company building, you know, at night, and then like wait until the guard leaves, and then
you know, practice all day long, all night long. Another thing I want to bring up is why is this narrative of the so called the dark side of key pop?
You know, if you google the Dark Side of Key Pop compared to the Dark Side of America Pop, you'll find nothing from by googling the Dark Side of America Pop, but you'll find tons of English articles that is entitled the Dark Side of Key Pop talking about the abusive environment of key pop. And I would rather I want to ask, you know, how come does abuse narrative is so popular and how come this abusing system is so transparent in kip hop because you know this is not
you in any child labor industry correct also in American pop industry. You know, we've seen Free Brittany, Mickey Mouse Club.
But I think therein lies the difference in the coverage of the two abusive systems is that within the Korean system, I would argue that there is an entity, there is a governing body, There are three labels. There is an actual building where you can go and go for every failed childhood actor in America, for every musician that burned out from a rigorous tour schedule at twelve thirteen years old. I did morning radio, hip hop radio for almost fourteen years.
Some all come through, all the thirteen fourteen year old rappers and saw them all burnt out at seven o'clock, And then no kid should be up this early to do media on a regular basis. But because in America there is no academy for rap, there's no place for a parent to go and drop off their child for a couple of months to live in a dorm to learn how to rap. You just wrap around at the local club, a label guy sees you. So the system
is more it's more jello. So it's hard to really concretely identify who's wrong and who's the person to fingerwag at. And I think that's why the coverage is. There's such a disparity, you know, in the coverage. You know, I don't know if you have an opinion on that or not Sabrina, But I just think that in America because
there is no formal system system like that totally. Yeah, even influencer culture in this country, which I think is negative in the greater good of you know, what some of these kids are going through and what their fans
are consuming. That's not even really regulated by our governments at all, you know, Whereas in Korea, I know they're like introducing it into after school care and they're trying to figure out ways to hey, let's tiptoe into this in ways that aren't necessarily going to the big bad
government building. So like, I just I just think that that's probably why it's not as much of a coverage Because if you were to write the same article about the American child labor entertainment industry, who would you point the finger at? Who is the right? Who is the person? Like it's all Kaiser Sosa everywhere but nowhere type of stuff.
Totally, If you made a great point, I would say, it's more at the problem of the system, Yes, And the.
Good and bad thing about that is that, you know, it's really hard to change the system. At the same time, it can be expanded into a an issue of legislation and more discussion of the entire industry.
Well, after the break, I want to talk a little bit about my experience with the wonderful group ESPA, who made a visit to the States, and we also want to get into the economics of this. We're bringing it home talking about K pop. Let me go in google this epic high fan group so I can pay twelve dollars and get an epic hip post. I'm a forty four year old man. This is beyond the scene.
I need to google it too. My best friend will kill me if I don't remember the name.
I got a check if kaised up meat bubble messages.
Beyond the scenes we are bringing at home talking about k pop. Stephanie Sabrina, thank you for educating me and also allowing me to embarrass myself, not saying that I thought of Korean hip hop group.
No, but I was impressed. You know Epici.
Yes, that is the only song I know. I've not had an opportunity to google other things.
Oh, I go it was high school high schooler family.
All right, Well then I'll be high school. I'll take that. I also only knew of BTS because of Saturday Night Live and the second song they did on SNL Boy with Love, I was like, oh no, that's a jam. I was like, yeah, that's a jam. And then I started playing it on beat Saber on my VR headset, and now I'm in love with that group. I had an opportunity to do a field piece with the group
Espa who. I'll be honest and saying Stephanie, I did not necessarily know a lot about before the when I was told I was doing the piece, you know, you go do your research so you can learn a little bit. And the more I listened to their music, the more I felt right and not having known it, forty year old black guy not their genre, pretty sure that was at their target demo when they got in the studio.
But but we're out on this double decker bus shooting footage and stuff, right, And I've been out with American celebrities, right. And this is also a compliment to the fan to K pop fandom. Right. American fans, I believe tend to want a little more than just a photo. They want a moment. They want today, How the kid, where's your fail? How long you gonna be in New York?
Man?
That's a double decad but do you like double decord? But can I get a picture? Whereas what I saw with EsPAS fans come up, they do their little peace sign ESPA do the peace sign back, and wherever they were, they were on top of a bus taking selfies with strangers on the sidewalk and the strangers angling the camera
up to get the selfie. And it was almost understood, like to your point about I don't want to bother you at dinner, so I'm just gonna sneak a photo where it was understood, this is not an opportunity for us to have a conversation, but I'm still going to give you this moment, and the fans understood that it
needs to be brief. And it was just like every block four or five photos between setups, and the fans were just so appreciative and waving and just shooting b ro footage, Like I'm just amazed at that level of just connectedness in how brief it was, how brief, and how profound it was. Do you learn that at the at the at the Korean k Pop School Academy of Music and Fandom, Stephanie, or is that just a skill set that's developed over.
Time I think fans have been developing how to interact with their idols, and of course there are you know, the crazy ones. Fans call them hussanssing comes from the term sassan, which means privacy. So someone who invades idols privacy, you know, the stalkers. But fans always discussed themselves from hussaying, and you know they're real fans would learn how to respect idols schedules and privacy, and that's how you know.
And also like these days, everything is filmed and will be on social media, and that really represents the reputation of the fan club. So fan clubs are also very much aware of how to maintain their own reputation and gain respect on social media. So I think it comes from respecting the idol and also from respecting yourself.
Brina, how much has K pop's global economic impact benefited the country of South Korea?
Wow? I mean I was thinking about this this morning when I moved to the States, and you were to tell me, like some K pop idol we're going to be on SNL or like this podcast going to talk about K pop, or like they're gonna go on morning shows, like you know, some late night shows I would have laughed at you, like I would have not believed you. You know, like when I moved here, I still listened to a lot of K pop and watched a lot
of K dramas, you know, all that stuff. But like I never dis actively discussed theF with my American friends because like why would I. They would never understand, you know, they don't know what it is. But nowadays, like people like you know, Stephanie said, like people come up to me and be like, oh, do you know black Pink?
Do you know this? Do you know this? So like from a very personal point of view, I think it had a very positive impact of like Americans and a lot of international just you know, global people like more curious about this small country called Korea.
You know.
Like but you know, I feel like a lot of time, when you think of Asia, a lot of people would think of like China or Japan. But now I feel like Korea also became like kind of like a big name that everyone kind of all of a sudden associates with Asia and then like you're very curious about it.
So I think it's very positive impact. And also you know, like this year, Netflix announced that they're going to have like the biggest ever lineup of K drama, so like that's not K pop, but it's still part of like this.
It's all part of the culture.
It's all part of the culture, and all of a sudden, Netflix is like doing the biggest lineup and investing all this money in K drama show that's you know, going to air globally. So I think it's I personally love it, and I think it's great because now I can I don't even need to convince my friends to watch my American friends to watch it, they just watch it and talk to me about it.
Yeah. I think what makes it really interesting to me, Stephanie is because you know, as an American, we traditionally think of ourselves as the factory of entertainment for the rest of the world. But now Korea the curator. They're not the consumers, they're the curators. So I would imagine that has to be good for tourism and shit and making people at least want to maybe go see a K pop concert in Korea instead of going to a land.
Definitely not just for concert tours, but I see lots of international students, college students coming to Korea during the summer or you know, spend their whole year in Korea. You'll see lots of young generation coming to Korea and learn more about Korean culture. And then I also see lots of young air national utubers who are you know, talking about Korean culture in Korea while they live in Korea.
Now, as you research you know, your forthcoming book about the global impact of k pop stardom, Stephanie, What's changed and what stayed the same over the years in this genre of music in terms.
Of fandom, the market has become broader than before. At the same time, I also see some political changes. I think it's not just a problem of keypop, but because of the current changes in global politics, I see also, you know, more conflicts of ethnic nationalism and xenophobia in international capap fandom as well, you know, coming from a Korean fandom, but also from other translocal fandoms as well.
How much does social media play a role in that political influence? You think in the sense of most musicians don't want to get into politics political issues across all genres. They just want to make music. But then as your fans become more you know, suppressed or dealing with injustices, And I think that globally, political movements are more connected
because of social media. So if there's something like if you look at say, stop Asian hate in the States, which I imagine doesn't have the same level of gravity in Korea because it's just a different environment. But if an Asian artist is coming over here to perform for a for predominantly Asian audiences, they might go, yo, man,
we need you to say something about the bullshit. So are you finding are you all finding that more groups now or even within the parameters of what still keeps them within without choosing a side, because I always feel like there's the politicians and then there's the issue, and there's the issue that's hurting the people. Like do you at least see them? Do you see more artists now at least speaking about the issues?
I would think so, But I think it depends on certain topics, like for example, like BTS was invited to the White House and talked about Asian hate I think a year ago or two years ago. Two years ago, well, I thought it was a little sus because they're not Asian Americans, like you said, in Korea, like everyone's Korean, So there's no Asian hate. If there's hate is just hate, you know, koreating crime on Koreans.
You know.
But the White House decided to invite BT to talk about Asian hate, which I don't think they ever experienced because they don't live in this country, you know, but they were brave enough to talk about it. And I think just to see Asian k pop this group at the White House, I think had like a lot of gravity to a lot of fans out here in America.
So I would say, like, they do speak of that kind of stuff, but like I would Stephanie correct me if I'm wrong, But I wouldn't think they would, like like how Taylor Swift is very anti Trump, right, Like I don't think any of the BTS members or any of the K pop idols would be like, oh I hate the current president right now in Korea. Like I don't think anyone would be that.
Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, I don't think many American artists wouldn't be until their Taylor Swift Stadium status right anyway, Like, but just that sense of speaking about an issue that may be a lightning rod for their fan base, Like it might be such that they're but if if you're an Asian American, just seeing them at the White House trying to stir it up make you then feel like, oh, well, the administration won't listen to me Joe blow the voter, but they might listen to BTS, which is sad.
To say, but I think, yeah, what do you think are there?
Is there a little bit more of a political lean in terms of just issues, not politics, but not politicians. But do you see more of a conversation around issues from a lot of K pop artists today versus you know, if we're talking about what's different from then versus now.
I think that Korean entertainment industry in general really gets away from, you know, making political statements. Entertainers should remain asked, you know, someone who would entertain people without any political bias. So I think it's not just for keyp idols, but for you know, actors. Actors are I think that more. You know, they make a bigger voice when it comes
to politics, but when idol's definitely not. But I see how they are trying to give positive influence through a more universalized issues such as you know, peace, love and justice. You speak yourself, love yourself, so you're not you know, leaning toward a specific political goal, but rather you know, they're giving the seed of activism to the translocal communities.
And let's end on a question about change. If we're talking about where K pop was and where it is now. I'm not going to say his name, but I know of a I know of a white dude personally who moved to Korea to seek out a career in K pop, probably about seven eight years ago. How are non Asian aspiring K pop artists? I don't want to say treat it, but how hard is it to merge into that? Like, do y'all have an eminem yet? Like who is the non native person of that music genre? Does that analogy?
Maybe Lisa from Black Pink, she's Tie, so maybe some Americans might think she's Korean because she looks Asian, but she's not Kurgan.
I guarantee a lot of Asian. I'm sure a lot of Americans.
Is me educate you? She's not Korean, although she's fluent in Korean and English, and like obviously she like you know, she's from Thai, so she speaks Thai as well.
But is that something that could have even dared to have happened fifteen years.
Ago, fifteen years ago, twenty let's.
Go twenty, Like, how much is.
That first generation?
I mean, clearly it's accepted the group is a hit, right, so it's not like people hate her because she's tied. But in terms of the evolution of it becoming more multicultural and becoming more K pop not necessarily being solely the property of Koreans anymore, or it's not something there are other people in the sandbox? Now, do you see that evolution continuing, Stephanie.
Yeah, there was also the first black K pop idol, O CenTra.
I think, oh, yes, send me here, we're going. Yeah, there are.
Little changes in K pop, but you know, as far as K pop will sustain uh relying on the cultivation of intimate relationship between idols and fans, it will be more of a problem of how much this non Korean idol can communicate well with the local fans. First, the Korean fans nice whom you will need almost every week or every month during your promotion activities, and a lot
of companies offer Korean language lessons. So I don't think it has been a problem, but it will be more about the cultural proximity that you feel too to non Korean idols. But at the same time, I also see how like more and more companies are really focusing you know, overseas market. You know, they don't just reside in Korea, but they you know, seeing what bts they focus more on overseas market, and that's how you know they they
stretch out beyond Korea. So I see a lot of potentials, but there will be definitely more conflicts and negotiations going on.
So I get what you're saying, Stephanie. The idea of other cultures and other races entering into kpop and there's access within. It just still boils down to their ability to connect with the fan base.
Yeah, but also with the lack of multicultural experience with Korean society, that will be also it's still changing, but you know, it's it's really still very new to Korean society. The Korean government launched this multicultural agenda only by two thousand and six, so only by then they started to recognize this you know, multicultural population in Korea, So it will be late, but I would also expect more voices coming from you know, international fans and non Korean residents
in Korea. So we'll see I mean Korea, Korea is always you know, changing fast, so who knows.
Well we look for to the book breaking it all down. I think that's all the time we have for today. Stephanie, Sabrina, thank you all for going beyond the scenes with me.
Thank you, thank you.
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