The volume. All right, welcome in to a Wednesday morning podcast that was ugly as hell. So the Lakers missed ten of their first eleven shots, didn't play great defense for most of the night, twenty turnovers, shot forty one percent from the floor, Lebron inexplicably struggled with inbounds passes, but they hold on to win in overtime despite a weird ad foul at the end of regulation one oh two.
So it's a win. You know, they're not a great offensive team, and it's a little dispiriting that in year twenty they still need Lebron to really carry them down the stretch of a lot of games. Eighty was okay, mostly good. And what the Lakers did last night, and we've talked about this, they're not a great offensive team. I mean, they protect the rim, they initiate a lot of contacts, so they get to the free throw line, and last night they were twenty two or twenty four
from the free throw line. That's what they did really well. They took advantage at the stripe and that was the difference. And they're a team Minnesota relied. Carl Anthony Towns had a good night, but they relied on a lot of jump shots, and the Lakers tend to drive, create contact and get to the free throw line. They played very poorly. This is they just weren't terribly engaged. And for the Lakers to win, you generally know you're gonna get about
twenty six to twenty eight from Anthony Davis. In Laker wins, you're gonna get about twenty six points from Lebron James, and then you need a third guy to step up. That's usually the recipe for winning. You play some good defense, you get a third guy to step up offensively. Austin Reeves wasn't terribly dynamic, and Dennis Shooter had a couple of big shots big three at the end of regulation, but they didn't really have a third guy step up and give them that twenty twenty one points they need
in most wins. But shorthanded Minnesota just ran out of gas late, hit a lot of shots early. Mike Conney was red hot again. Carl Anthony Town's played well. But this is a Laker team that there's a certain formula they have to have to win, and that is Anthony Davis has got to dominate the inside. Lebron has to be engaged in the second half. You can't ask for Lebron at this point in his career to give you thirty nine engaged minutes. He tends to settle into a
game after about ten minutes twelve minutes. He didn't start quickly on most nights, he certainly didn't in this one. The Lakers as a hold and shoot the ball particularly well early, fell behind and just kind of sputtered, But you kind of felt the entire way like they would finally Lebron would finally kind of pick it up and carry them down the stretch. He did, didn't play great down the stretch, had a couple of very bizarrely bad
Lebron turnovers, but it was good enough to win. This is kind of what I talked about with this Laker team in March Madness. I think they'd be a handful because they're physical, they can defend the rim, they'll get to the free throw line. Darven Ham's a good defensive coach. But if you're asking this team to win a beauty contest and to get easy baskets, and generally teams that win championships, they've got shot makers or playmakers or both,
and they get some easy baskets. You know, you never quite know who's going to be the third scorer for the Lakers, So it's it's against good teams. If you look at how they've played lately, I think they've won ten of twelve. You know, they've beaten a lot of average teams or shorthanded teams. They're not pretty. Baskets don't come easy. Tonight it's a great example of you know, it was just kind of an ugly win, and you
got to feel good about that. They don't win this game on the road, they wanted at home, they needed overtime. But it's kind of it's kind of the way they're going to have to win. Just treat every game it's like a March Madness one and done. Play with urgency. They're not talented enough offensively to have really really off nights. I mean, again, they won that game tonight at the
free throw line. They hit their free throws, but they had twenty turnovers, didn't shoot the ball particularly well, didn't have a third score. So this is kind of the way it's going to work. Can they beat a good team like Memphis four times? I think they can. In the first playoff series, I don't think they can extend it to a second playoff series win and a third I just think you're asking too much of an old guy and an often hurt guy and Anthony Davis. But
Crypto Arena was rocking. You know, it was really funny. In the first game, Atlanta played with a ton of urgency, jumped on top of Miami, and again Miami, like the Lakers, baskets come hard. They're not a pretty offensive team, and they just didn't have enough offensively in the tank to overcome the deficit. The Lakers did mostly because you know, Lebron engineers to come back, and they hit a couple
of big threes. You know, when you were watching this game tonight, your first takeaway is, God, this is really hard to stomach. Just can we bury the tape. This is what it's going to look like in the playoffs for this team. Defend, get to the line, hit your free throws. This is what they're gonna look like. They're not going to be pretty because you start looking in the West. Now, Phoenix with KD now has some length, fewer easy baskets. Golden State, Wiggins is back, Gary Payton's back.
They can defend. Now start looking at some of these teams you can match up with in the West. Memphis gonna play real defense. This is what it's going to look like. Little choppy, little ugly close need lebron down the stretch and hit your free throws. So it's a win. It's an ugly one. And that's a good segue for us into our guest today and the Calling Coward podcast. The NBA Playoffs are upon us. Twenty teams get in all trying to get that one crown. For last minute
amazing deals to watch your favorite NBA team. It can be the Warriors, it could be the Kings, it could be the Sixers, it could be the Bucks. To get great last minute deals on amazing tickets. Check out game Time, the fastest growing ticketing app in the United States. It's called game Time doesn't stop, by the way with the NBA. They've got NHL tickets, Major League Baseball tickets. They've also
got concerts and comedy shows. Game Time. Download the game Time app and the redeem code is colin cli N twenty dollars off your first purchase. Terms apply. Download the game Time app, enter the code colin cli N for twenty dollars off here we go, NBA Playoffs, Baseball season just starting here in April. NHL is well, no matter where you live, get out, have some fun this week and this year. Download the game time app, last minute
ticket deals, lowest prices guaranteed. Well, I'm very excited. I got to talk to Jeff Benedict after he finishes another absolutely consumable book. You know, he wrote The Dynasty, the Insight on the New England Patriots, which is soon to be a documentary on Apple TV. It was tremendous. He co wrote the book with my friend armand Kitayan Tiger Woods.
And now the new book is Lebron. And it's the kind of in depth reporting and context that you just don't get on, certainly on shows like mine, but you don't even get in like a magazine article of some renowned It's such quality reporting. And I thought I knew just about everything about Lebron, but the details and the digging here is so fun. You start the book. The topic is the decision, which for years I defended Lebron on.
David Stern argued with me, I'm like, listen, he gave millions of dollars of the Boys and Girls Club, give me a break and Stern, as you know, appalled is too strong but didn't like it. So let's you start the book there. Maverick Carter, who I know very well consider a friend, had some leverage in creating this. Let's go back to the decision. People may just remember the Jim Gray interview. It's quick. How did it land for Lebron?
Talk about the genesis of it? Well, it's it's fantastic because Lebron had been he was being courted for a year or longer by a handful of teams that were pulling out all the stops to get him. And you know, it was the question not just in the NBA, but the big question in sports now that summer was where is Lebron gonna go? Or is he going to stay
in Cleveland? And the reason I decided to open there is because, first of all, I was able to get access to some information about that day and that decision that has never really come out before. And that's why
I wanted to start the book. In a car pulling out of the private airport in New York, making its way through the back roads of Greenwich to the home of the man who really Mark Dowley, who helped put this together with Maverick, and I just thought this gives the reader the opportunity to feel like they're literally in the car with Lebron as he's en route to make a decision in a part of the country that most people have never been to. I mean, most Americans have
never been to Greenwich, Connecticut. And in a way, it's a weird place when you think about it. Why in the world would you choose Greenwich to make this announcement. It's Knick's country, if anything, but even if you were going to go to the Knicks, Greenwich is an odd place to go to do this. And so I wanted to go there with the reader because I just thought it allowed me to show so many things about Lebron
at that moment in his life. And I just love the scenery of them getting out of the car and Greenwich at this estate, Maverick and Rich Paul, and they're they're flying so high in that moment, they're so happy, they're they're so almost in a way there is a naivete about what's about to happen, and they're so loose, and then in a couple of hours all hell breaks. It does take people listening now, because there is so much depth to this book, you can give away a
lot and not give away a third of it. But when did they realize something had gone poorly with the decision? I think, you know, they started the sense that things aren't great immediately after the decision was announced and the initially ESPN broadcast had concluded, meaning the live event with Jim Gray, and then Lebron had to do an interview with Michael Wilbon who was in studio and doing a remote interview with Lebron who was still in Greenwich at
the club, and the questions. One of the questions Wilbon asked him was if he could see what was happening in Cleveland. They were already burning his jersey, But it's not untill later that evening, before they've left Greenwich though, to get on a private plane to go to Miami. They hung around for a while. They actually went back to Dowley's house and they were listening to music and
hanging out. And then the Dan Gilbert's letter shows up on the website and you're starting to go like wow, Like the New York Times puts up a story that's referring to the evil empire, and this is all happening in real time and Twitter works now, right, It's Twitter is fairly new at this point, but it works. And the tweets are coming from all over the place, not just sportspeople, but people in entertainment, late night comedy. Everybody's
piling on. And so by the time Lebron and his inner circle are in the air to fly to Miami, they know it's bad. And I love how Rich Paul refers to the quietest flight he'd ever been on with Lebron and Maverick. So there was a sweepstake, says you note to get Lebron. The Knicks had an interesting pitch, but Miami's landed. Tell her audience why, and and they're tact, which is to me pat Riley's one of the smartest guys in league history. Not a shock he hit the
right notes. Yes, yeah, I love. The reason I love the Knicks pitch is because it's so New York and it's just so over the top and so inappropriate in terms of what you need to lure Lebron to your team. Lebron had so much access to fame and glitz and glamour. That's not what he was looking for and he wasn't looking for a billion dollars. He was looking for rings championships. And so New York does this thing where they hire
a filmmaker who doesn't know anything about basketball. He didn't know the difference between a basketball and a golf ball. And so he goes out and brings in Jonathan Hawk, who knows how to make a sports documentary, and they have all the celebrities in New York City lined up, from Harvey Weinstein to Reggie Jackson to Alec Baldwin, I mean, Robert de Niro, everybody wanted in this documentary. And they
even got Donald Trump. They went up to Trump Tower and got Trump to sit for an interview, and every body they interviewed is pitching lebron On White needs to come to New York. To me, the best part of that whole story, and the smartest thing they did, was to go get Tony Soprano out of retirement and to bring him in to do a sketch at the end of the film, and it's basically Gandelfini getting back in
that role with Edie Falco. It was brilliant, and I told the story through the lens of Jonathan Hawk who shot the interview in Tony's apartment, and they pitch him and it's basically literally the offer you can't refuse. And Lebron thought it was funny because it was it was clever,
it was funny, but it wasn't right. And then Riley comes in and Riley's last and Riley brings in a bag of rings and he puts them on the table and you know, Lebron asks him what's in there and he dumps them out and there is championship rings that he's won everywhere, and it's what Lebron wants, and he has this really important line to keep the main thing
the main thing. Lebron didn't know what that was in the moment, but Maverick knew what it was because he'd read Steve and our Covey's book and certainly understood what Riley was saying. And the main thing in Miami with pat Riley is winning championships, and he knew that that was the main thing for Lebron. And I just thought, wow, like these two contrasts, the Knicks and the Heat. So the Miami story is four years, two championships. I think the arc of many of our lives is the hardships
come before the titles or the runs. Right, We've all struggled in our life. Lebron struggles are the struggles of the greatest basketball player ever. The decision ding them a little bit. But Miami, Miami felt like it was going to work very quickly. You had the smart owner, pat Riley, a young, brilliant, young coach. You had d Wade Haslam the culture, and then he loses to the Mavericks and for the only time in his career looked afraid on the court. That was a real turning point for Lebron.
Talk about that, it's a huge turning point. I would say, it's not really a disagreement with you, But I think the decision did more in than ding him. Because the ramification of the decision. He is the villain of American sports. His first year in Miami, he's hated and anyone who was in Cleveland. I was not there the night that Lebron returned to Cleveland, but I interviewed people who were It was violent. I mean it was scary. People who
were on that team said they were afraid. The security in the arena, people that were there to protect the Miami players they had never seen or felt anything like that at an American sports event. That first year in Miami for Lebron, I think was different because Lebron likes to be liked and he was hated that year. And then on top of that, they were supposed to win and they didn't win, and I think that's what plunged
Lebron into a dark period. The summer after losing to Dallas is the darkest period of Lebron's career for him personally, and it's really a moment of self discovery where he's locked away in Miami. He doesn't want to talk to anybody, not family, not friends. He's listening to you certain kinds of music, and really when he comes out of that,
it's interesting when he comes out of that. I just thought it was interesting that one of the first people he saw when he came out of that was Bono in Miami, who had come YouTube was there touring, and
he had some private time with Bono backstage. I just thought it was interesting because I was thinking to myself as a writer, Bono's probably one of the only people on the planet who could actually say in that moment, I've been through more than you I know what this is like, like, I've been in worse spots than you because I've been doing this longer and I'm a world
around rock star. And I'm sure he didn't say those things to Lebron, but there aren't many people Lebron can get in a room with who could actually say I've been to these places that you're in right now. And he comes out of that, and Dwayne Wade has a big part of him coming out of that, because that's when they have the conversation about this needs to be your team. It's sort of like it's okay to take over, you need to dominate. This is my city and my team in my town, but we're not going to win
unless you take the reins. And boy, the next season, Lebron's the scariest player in the NBA. I mean, everyone's afraid of him. You don't want to play this team and that guy. And I think the next three years to me, those are the scary Lebron years. Let's go back to you talk about in the book. There's obviously great debate. Lebron now starts stacking up championships in Miami and then the Michael Jordan's stuff really starts to become a comp and nobody had really ever challenged Michael Jordan.
It was just Russell early, then Kareem, then Magic. Then you know, you kind of got ten years to yourself as the greatest player ever. And all of a sudden after the second title, people start talking about, Wow, this guy is different. Yes, but in his early days in high school, Jeff nobody talked about Michael Jordan. Their games were different, Their personalities are completely different. One is much more hyper aggressive, much more the score not necessary, not
necessarily ever conciliatory or considering about your feelings. Lebron's comp was not Mike, as you note, Yeah it is, because it's interesting you reference that high school years. One of my favorite scenes in this well, I'm going to say
two of them, because they're kind of coupled. It's when Maverick goes back, he leaves college after one year, right realizes he's not going to play in the NBA, goes back to Akron to go to school and to work with Lebron and help Lebron and navigate those tenuous high school years coming up for him, and he starts coaching his AAU team and they go to Chicago in the summer, and one of the guys from Jordan's Jim, who works with Michael Jordan trains with him, approaches Maverick and invites
him and Lebron to come to Michael's Jim in Chicago, and they go. Michael's not there, but they go and they check it out, and it's like they've entered that sort of celestial space where Michael Jordan trains. It's a private place not anybody can go. And other NBA players who are active in the league go there to train, and remember Michael's retired right now, but they go there.
And one of the things that Lebron gets to do is he gets to scrimmage run with these NBA players, guys like Antoine Walker, big time players, big bodies playing with a teenager. And for the first time, the floor looks different to Lebron, it's a different floor. And that's why that chapter is called a different Floor. It's the same dimensions of the floor that he plays on at Saint Fee's, except everything's different. The passing lanes are more
narrow because the guys are so much bigger. Their arms are longer when they put their arms out. The routes to the basket just aren't there that he sees in high school games. It's all different for him, and that is a huge eye opening experience for him. And one thing happens. He can't guard anybody in those scrimmages. They're too good, they're too fast, they're too big. He can't guard them. But he can score against these guys, which is phenomenal. He can score buckets with some of the
best NBA players and he's only in high school. That's really important. And then here's the second part. Later they go back there, and they're there and they're about to leave, and they go outside and Martin pulls up in a red sports car and gets out. Now at this moment, Michael knows he's coming out of retirement, but nobody else knows that. He hasn't announced it yet, And so he gets out. The coolest athlete in the world, gets out of the car and approaches Lebron. He knows who Lebron is,
and Lebron certainly sees who he is. This is his idol, this is the guy whose posters are on his bedroom walls. It's the guy whose number he wears. And now they're in a conversation and Michael invites him back inside and they talk, and Michael doesn't give him advice, because Michael's not that kind of guy. But it doesn't matter. It's what he did give him was he gave him his cell phone number, which to me is a lot more important than advice because of what it says to Lebron.
Michael doesn't give his phone number out to anybody. Lebron's now one of the few people in America who has Michael Jordan's cell phone. And when he leaves Chicago that night, by the way, Colin, the next day is the first day of school at Saint fee Maverick's got to raise him home because he's got to be in school the next day, and in his pocket he's got Michael Jordan's phone number. And he wrote in his journal about that and about how cool that experience was. And to me,
what did Michael think of Lebron in that moment? Did he really think that Lebron was actually going to threaten him as the potential greatest player of all time? I don't know. Probably not, because he was still a kid and he was very encouraging to him at that moment. But obviously as time goes on and it doesn't take long. By the time you get to Game five against Detroit, you know, like this guy is actually that guy, like he is the future. He is that good and there
isn't anyone else like him. And so I just think the Michael Jordan origin stories with Lebron, they're real, and there's some of the most interesting parts of Lebron's story. I remember his first game was against Sacramento, and I think if I recall, he had like twenty points, you know, and did the classic sort of Lebron box score seven rebounds tennisis you know, a classic didn't well, he was
not a great defender early in his NBA career. In his game, although he was a freight train, it wasn't the finesse and the softness and the three point shooting hadn't developed. How badly, because I remember the Spurs being dominant and being a rating enemy for the league, like the Dynasty was a snooze y. Popovich sometimes wouldn't play the best players in TV games. It was like this small market sort of combative head coach. How badly did the league need Lebron in those first three or four
years As a story, as a narrative. I think they needed him extremely badly, but I think it had less. Yes, they obviously needed his talent, and they needed him to be legitimate on the court, like a real star, not a lot of hype who came in and was kind of okay. They needed him to be a really good, serious star player his rookie year. But there was something they needed more than that. They needed a clean reputation. If you remember the status of the league when Lebron
came in, and it was a mess. There were so many negative things about the NBA's image with Alan Iverson, with all the off court stuff. There were fights, there was the Indiana brawl. In the stands, there was a dress code that you know, Stern decided he had to impose on the players, which was very controversial. You know, Kobe Bryant was arrested for a felony right as Lebron
is emerging as a young NBA player. What the league really needed from Lebron, which to me is an enormous burden, is they need a star that you actually want to root for. That's what they needed, and he really delivered that. I mean, think about the rules that Lebron broke as a young player. One of my favorite rules that he broke, and he just broke it and didn't care was when his firstborn son was old enough to walk, he walks across the court during a game. It's a time out,
but it's a game. He walks across the court, leaves his mom's lap, walks across the court, and sits beside his dad on the bench in a game. You're not supposed to do that. You can't have family members on the bench in a game. There's actually a rule that prohibits that. The league didn't enforce it with Lebron because it's like, wow, like did somebody script that. I mean,
that's like, that's medicine we need. And so he broke rules like that again and again and again, and the league didn't slap his hand because actually, this is what we need. And Lebron wasn't doing it to help the league or to be a certain kind of image. Lebron was just being Lebron, like that's who he is. And so it's like it was some of the best tonic for the NBA at the time. You know, we live in a post truth. I mean, it's such a weird place we are now. Where I can hand people facts
and it doesn't matter. People are so deeply embedded in their opinion. So you know, I've said this through the years, is that Lebron wasn't the first person to be mobile, but he has changed it so that when players like Damian Lillard don't consider moving, or Bradley Beale or Jannis, it's considered bad business. You have to consider it that loyalty is almost viewed a little bit as a weakness unless you can win a title. And I think Lebron
deserves credit for that. He empowered the player magic arguably saved the league. Jordan made it more global. Lebron made mobility and business player empowerment. That said, the idea that he created super teams is really laughable in your book, totally laugh in your book, you actually note, and I want you to go into some detail here that there was a super team created because of Lebron. Yeah, nobody understood super teams more than Pat Riley and Danny Ainge.
And Ange is up running the Celtics, Riley's down in Miami running the Heat. They can't stand each other. They're great rivals that go all the way back to the eighties. Lakers Celtics rivalries, and now they're running teams and they're building super teams. And it's because Ange played on a super team in Boston with Bird, McHale, Parrish and Dennis Johnson won all that winning that went on, and Riley built a super team in LA with Magic and Kareem
and James Worthy and all those guys. Now they're executives. And let's just remember Ange builds a super team in Boston before Lebron goes to Miami, right, the whole thing with Garnett and Alan and Pierce. What's he doing. He's trying to be Lebron. He's trying to make sure that the Celtics can beat Lebron because he knows how good
Lebron is. Then Lebron goes down to Miami and basically, with Riley's guidance and helping with the architecture, I mean, they assemble a superteam as if this is a new thing. I mean, to me, it's funny because in what it leads to is the Warriors going out, who already have
an all star team. Right, they have the Splash Brothers, they have Draymond Greene, who is the most underrated great player in the NBA at the time, and then they got to go get Kevin Durant, why for one, when he'son only so they make sure they can actually beat the Cavaliers. And so the whole idea that it's Lebron's fault is funny because super teams are what have always carried the day in the NBA. The Dynasties that preceded
the Celtics, the Lakers, those were super teams. Michael was on a super team and so I mean, you know, you take Scottie Pippenham off that team. I mean, I'm sorry, but that's like Michael with the bulls in dealing with what Lebron had to do when he was in Cleveland and didn't have Kyrie or any other guys. That's what it is. Yeah, I've noted that before. It's much easier to be Magic Johnson inherit Kareem and never leave, or go be Michael Jordan and live in a great American
city in a major market and not leave. Cleveland was neither. You didn't have a team, much structure. It's a place. I mean, I for years I would ask players their least favorite place to play in the NBA, and they would mention Cleveland or Sacramento. Yes. So, I've always thought the criticism of Lebron that he left if he is drafted by the Lakers. Remember was it Kobe drafted by Charlotte. Yes, he would have not been loyal. He would loyal because
he became a Laker. Yes. So let's go to the early days of Lebron in Cleveland where they got to a finals. We're completely overwhelmed by a much better team San Antonio. But early coaches are Mike Brown and Paul Silas. We never hear about them. They are lost in the story of Lebron. Mike's now doing a fabulous job with Sacramento. Yep, let's go back and let's revisit that. Let's let's talk Mike Brown, who, by the way, Lebron wasn't a great defender.
I'm sure Mike deserves some credit for really teaching Lebron how to defend in this league. What was their relationship, Like Colin, Before I answer that, I, can we say something about Silas because you did mention Silas. Yeah. Paul Silas to me is I tried to mention as much as I include Paul as much as I could. His tenure is brief in Cleveland, but to me it's pivotal. I mean, he's the coach when Lebron is a rookie, and Paul is this much older, seasoned veteran, right, not
just veteran player, but veteran coach. A lot of Lebron's coaches were young guys. Mike Brown, who is proving to be a great coach now, when he was coaching Lebron, he's not seasoned yet, right, He's very young. He's learning how to be a head coach. Lebron has worked with a lot of coaches when they were really young and then went on to become really good, reputable coaches, but when they were with Lebron, not so much. Silas. On
the other hand, this guy's seen everything. He talked about having seen everything, and then he'd say repeatedly that rookie year and then something that happened with Lebron that I've never seen before, And it's because it was such a weird experience, the amount of fame and hype around Lebron. But Paul did a good job of I think protecting and teaching Lebron. There was a Ricky Davis got traded out of there because there was dissension in the locker room.
Lebron takes the high road as a teenager, doesn't want to criticize any of his teammates, doesn't want to say negative things. The reporters were baiting him to say things, and he wouldn't. He just talked about how he got along with everybody silence. Knew what was going on, and there's a reason that they made personnel changes in a rookie year, and they traded veterans to get the team in better shape for Lebron. That's what I want to say about Paul. I think Paul had a big role
that gets understated. And as far as Mike Brown goes, I mean, look, Mike was learning. You know, Gilbert liked him, Gilbert hired him. I think he saw something in Brown and now it looks like, well, geez, what he saw is actually real. But you know, Lebron's not patient. He's not a patient athlete. I'm not saying that to criticize him.
Tom Brady's not patient either. There's a reason he's throwing stuff around on the sideline and yelling at people you are better than everybody else when you dream about what is going to happen on the court. When you see things that no one else sees, you get impatient really fast. And so was there a lot of that when Mike was coaching and learning how to be a head coach. Yes, And I think in some ways. You know, on one hand, Lebron is really easy to coach. Mike Schevski will tell
you like an incredibly coachable player. Coach drew his high school coach, very coachable player. I think when Mike Brown was the coach, I'm not sure how much coaching Mike Brown did of Lebron. And I think part of that is, Look, I can't speak for what Mike Brown really felt at that time, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was a little reluctant to try to coach Lebron because you know, like, what am I going to say? Like I don't have
the best player in the league on my team. I got the best player on the planet on my team. I mean, what am I going to really tell this guy? And I think that that Paul Silas didn't have to worry about that, he's Paul Silas, but Mike Brown different, and I just think that's It's just part of the reality of what was happening at the time. I have a feeling if he was his coach today, it'd be different. When do you believe Lebron truly realized I'm the best
basketball player currently on the planet. I think he knew it way before he left Cleveland the first time, way before he left Cleveland the first time. So do I yeah? I mean I wouldn't say that he felt that way the minute he entered the league. One of the things about Lebron is he is a student. Like if if Lebron could get a PhD in history, it would be in basketball history. He actually studied the grades like he
knows their pedigree right. And he came into the league very respectful of players that were before him, including veterans who were in the league, guys like Kobe right who most people considered Kobe the greatest player in the game. When Lebron entered the league. Kobe was the guy Michael had just retired, and we all know Michael's last year
wasn't a banner year for Michael. But Kobe was at the pinnacle when Lebron entered, and there weren't many people saying in Lebron's rookie year that he was better than Kobe. But guys like Jerry West, they knew he was gonna be better than Kobe. They all knew that because they could all see it. Danny Ainge knew that, pat Riley knew that, and they all looked at Kobe as the greatest player on earth at the time, but they all
knew that Lebron was going to go past him. And so the point in time, the moment, I don't know. I mean, I don't know when that moment was, but I know it was before he left Cleveland the first time. Jeff Benedict one final question. I've said this before that Michael could be petty and spiteful, but he made good decisions. He leaned on his mother, David Falk, David Stern, Phil Jackson. He really made good decisions. Similarly Lebron, who came in
much younger to the NBA than Michael. He didn't have the stewardship of Dean Smith for years and understanding you know that that basketball factory in Carolina, and but he was very smart with the media, very respectful of the sport. Has made very few mistakes. I've always said there's three
stages for the all time greats in basketball. The show off stage where Lebron would chase people down and block stuff off the backboard, the okay, enough of me, I want to win rings and be respected stage, and then you pivot to the mogul stage, which is everything set. I'm going to do the best thing for me and LA is that move. He has a very strong relationship with jay Z Lebron does. How formidable is that decision? How much of Lebron's journey and handling of business do
you credit jay Z? Let's go into that relationship. Well, so look in terms of crediting his unparalleled business experience and success, I take that less from jay Z. I think jay Z deserves a ton of credit on some other things. But on the business side, I think what Lebron's done very well. It starts with the lawyer that
he hired. His mother really hired. Credit to her. Lebron hired a lawyer when he was in high school because he had issues with you know, suspended his last year for some stupid thing with a you know, the hummer and all this stuff. That lawyer that he hired was a very smart business Lawyer's the smartest lawyer in Cleveland. Arguably, it's the beginning of Lebron starting to surround himself with older, mature, wise people who know about business and know about money management.
And really, in short order, when Lebron fires his agent, everybody thought initially, holy cow, that's a stupid thing to do. Here's where the train goes off the rails. It was a brilliant decision because he was hiring people to manage his money, to manage his affairs. He was working with lawyers and financiers who were introducing him to people who were teaching Lebron about the big picture about financial security. He took the time to go meet with Warren Buffett.
Maverick went with him. These weren't meetings to go see a picture and tell the world, look who I met today. Lebron was actually really trying to find out how to build long term financial security. They were talking. They were using words like equity, when most athletes don't really know what equity is or how to even get it. Lebron was in his early twenties and he was learning about it. He knew he didn't know, but he wanted to learn.
And Maverick was the same way. They were hungry, they were like sponges, And so I think that is what set Lebron up so early. He went away from oh, I'll just do a commercial and sit in this car and I'll get money from Chevrolet. Or I'll go to General Mills and you can put my face on a cereal box and I'll take some money for the commercial. Lebron got disinterested in that really early and got interested in how do I own a piece of this, how do I build long term equity, how do I own things?
And that's I think the brilliance of that. But I think where jay Z was so instrumental with Lebron on his He was older than Lebron, not not way older, but he was old enough older that Lebron could look up to him. Not just because he was a great artist who made music that Lebron liked, all of which was true, but because he could see someone who'd been through some scrapes and some scraps, came out on the other side and was building a business. He didn't just
want to make music. He was building a business. He was building a record label, he was he was building a clothing line. He was building nightclubs. He was building things, and he was interested in politics. He was interested in more than just music. And I think that look and he realized that jay Z wasn't interested in him just because he was famous or just because he was a
great athlete. Jay Z actually was interested in him as a man, as a young man, and I think there was some reciprocity there between them, and I think that's why the relationship was never too cool guys who were famous sitting around hanging out because famous people like to be around famous people. They were actually friends, they were real friends, and so I thought that was most obvious when the Brooklyn Nets were recruiting Lebron and jay Z was a part owner of the Nets, and the friendship
didn't get in the way. That's when you know it's a real friendship. It wasn't transactional. He was respectful of respectful of what was best for Lebron. You know, it's interesting Michael stayed away from politics. Tiger Woods similarly has steered clear of it. Lebron tends to ingratiate himself with people and groups. He didn't like being a villain in Miami. But there is a point with Donald Trump where Lebron made decisions. I'm going to take a stand here. I'm
going to have a strong opinion. Take us to that pivot point with Lebron. Of the many in his career, his personality early would not be combative. That's not really who he is. Michael Jordan, you could see being combative. Yeah, So let's take us to the point in Lebron's arc where he makes a decision that he knows full well will get pushback and he's comfortable with it, taking on Trump. For Lebron, the shift of politics and confrontation is not an immediate one. It's a long one. Lebron, by nature
is not confrontational. Even on the basketball court. Lebron doesn't getting fights. You know, he's toughest. Yeah, he's the strongest, biggest guy out there, and he's a peacemaker. He doesn't like fighting, you know, never, not in high school. Never. And he's certainly not confrontational you know, out in the world. And so for many years in his career he was very a political meaning just agnostic toward it. He avoid completely somewhat like Michael. I'm not saying he was using
Michael as a role model in that regard. But he was very standoffish on politics that Michael felt more like that was a business decision. Lebron, it's a personality reality, Yes, it's exactly. And he didn't feel comfortable that he knew enough to weigh in. And that is evident with the Olympics in China, where he was pressured immensely to weigh in on China's human rights record, and Lebron wouldn't. His whole team signed a letter speaking out against the Chinese government.
Lebron was the only player, well one other player that didn't that didn't do it either, but Lebron was the guy who didn't sign it. But it's interesting Colin that it was later that year Barack Obama's running for president, and later that year Jay Z does talk to Lebron about the significance of Barack's candidacy end up joining him at a concert, a benefit concert to support Barrock. That is the beginning of Lebron entering the space of politics.
He stuck his toe in. He didn't jump in, but he put his toe in right and it felt good. You know. There were no ramifications from that, There was no big public outcry because he did that. And then once Obama was elected more than any American president history. He embraced NBA players. He likes basketball. He loves basketball. He started inviting these guys to the White House, not just when they won championships, but when he had meaningful
things he wanted to bring them in on. And Lebron did things like PSAs for his healthcare plan, you know, and the Republicans got mad at Lebron for doing that, and that's when it starts to build. And then when you start to have the I can't breathe moment for Lebron when he wears the black T shirt onto the floor of a game, that's when he really started to turn up to ten. Now this is all way before Trump.
Trump is not even a candidate yet. And that's why I'm saying, Colin, it's it's important to remember these are steps Lebron takes. He's very careful. He doesn't just launch into something willy nilly and just start firing from the hip. He moves into this space gradually. And I think that Barack Obama was an incredible teacher, as was the first Lady. They taught Lebron things not by what they said, but by what they showed. He was around them. They were
great models. Here is the highest profile black couple in the world. Talk about pressure in America, the kind of abuse they took, the criticism they took in the United States just for the color of their skin and being in the White House, Like, how dare Barack Obama saying? Do some of the things he was doing? Run saw this and I think admired the way they carried themselves. He is modeling and then stepping out. And by the time Trump gets there, he's very disciplined. In the campaign.
He campaigned for Hillary, but he never said critical things about Trump. He was very careful. He tried very hard not to it. He didn't attack Trump at all. But eventually when Trump wins and he didn't think Trump would win, and Trump wins in Ohio, I mean, he knows it's only a matter of time. This is going to get
really ugly. And it didn't take long. And what it really took to push lebron over the edge was I mean, remember right before the election when the tape was leaked of him, of Trump saying all those vile things about women, and then he said, wow, it's just locker room talk. In that moment, Lebron was the first and only major athlete to step up and say, wait a minute, that's not locker room talk. That's not how any of the
men talk in my locker room. We don't talk about we have wives, we have daughters, we don't talk like that. That to me, was a salvo. He didn't attack Trump, but he made it really clear like that was a shot across the bat, like I'm not going to be quiet if this guy attacks us. Because that wasn't That wasn't an attack on Lebron. It was an attack on
all professional athletes who are men. When he said that's locker room talking, it's like all those guys are like this, And Lebron stepped up and said, no, no, we're not like that. It's a warning shot. And then comes the attack on Steph Curry like he's not going to invite him to the White House, and that's when you get the U bum treat tweet and that you bum tweet. Lebron didn't think about it very long. Yeah, I mean all you have to do to trust me, just look
at the time stamps on the tweets. Right his comes out and here comes Lebron right behind him. Why because he attacked Trump's friend. He didn't attack Lebron. He attacked actually attacked Lebron's rival, the guy who's going against in the finals. He attacked that guy. And then Lebron was all in. And as soon as he was all in, so was everybody else. I mean, he when he came through, it's like he broke the gates down and then everybody ran in behind him. Yeah, but it really is a
significant shift in confidence growth. Remember I had Barack Obama. I had a good fortune of twice having him live on radio. We were very lucky. He chose Andy Katz and myself Wow a couple of times. I always felt so honored. And I remember asking the president a question. I said, you know, you're the first president in American history to face the vile nature of social media. It's it's at its best, quirky and unique. At its worst,
it's ugly and threatening. Know whether the President's face that, and our President Obama gave a very interesting, you know, as you suspect, a very thoughtful, mindful comment on it. But you know, Lebron is also an argument to be made. Is our first NBA superstar who in his ten year prime faced social media. Michael Jordan, I swear to god he never missed a shot. If you I've never seen
a miss jumper from Michael Jordan. So and Kobe for parts of his career really didn't face a lot of the social media, although by the time the race trial it was, it was really a part of it. But I think sometimes we forget Lebron has faced this headwind of negativity. Now all of us face it, But I don't know how I would have handled it at twenty four years old as a sportscaster getting this blowback. Now, I roll my eyes at it and warn my kids
about it. But for Lebron to live through it knowing full well, Jeff, when he would put you bum by that time, he knew the blowback he was going to get, even perhaps in his own arena or state. Yeah, no, it's true. And I think to me, look, you always get in trouble when you start making comparisons of athletes from different generations and eras, and so I'm I'm always loath to do that when it's a comparison about like on the field stuff, or on the court or on
the course. But when you come off the court and you start looking at the athletes who really made a difference in things that really matter. You talk about Muhammed Ali, and you talk about Arthur Ashe and Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Jim Brown, some of the guys who really took risks. I mean, Ali risked everything. I mean he literally risked his belt in his freedom. So I'm not going to compare Lebron to Muhammed Ali because that would be I think,
probably inappropriate. But if you put Lebron in time, in space that he lives in, this guy has literally a billion reasons to not step into that arena and take on the president United States. It's just so much easier to not do that. You know, if you do that, half the country is suddenly going to hate you, and it's a different kind of hate than you had in twenty ten with the decision that was all sports driven. This is something different and the country had changed in
six years. It's a different country now, And if you do that, it's like the gloves are off and suddenly you now represent something else. And I think Lebron was very well aware that he's too aware to not know that, and he did it anyway. And I think the reason I think it's worth saying that is for this simple thing. I can't tell you how many athletes I have talked to, both in and outside the scope of reporting on the book.
So I've talked. I've talked to plenty of athletes, not in my capacity as writing Lebron's biography, who told me unsolicited how that decision by Lebron to do that, but the president made it easier for them to speak out and made them more comfortable and unafraid to open their mouth. And so I think it's hard to underestimate the impact that Lebron had on social justice and athletes taking a stand on issues that really matter, like violence, police violence,
and racism and poverty and all these different things. Because the greatest athlete on the planet decided he could do it, well, then now it's okay for me to do it. And that's what's really different. And who else could have got Michael Jordan to put out a statement in support of Lebron. It took that because Trump said I like Mike, and Michael then finally said, well, I'm impressed with Lebron. I mean that was a big deal to me, a really
big deal. Yeah, And it goes against his personality pattern just a few years before that, which I think is such a redeemable quality as that Lebron. I always said this about Tiger Woods and Oprah. Oprah had the number one show in television. I worked at an NBC affiliate, and she decided it's not good enough. I'm going to separate from We're not going to do topics. We're going to do a more life improvement ethereal show. And her
ratings initially dipped and then they went up. Tiger Woods, number one golfer in the world, changed clubs to be the best and risk it by taking big swings that could hurt your brand. Oprah, Tiger Lebron have done it. And it's a very shortlist of people willing, knowing full well you can lose fans, audience, brands, money. I have such respect for those people that take chances when they're at the top. Yeah. It's easy to take the big
swing when you're chasing. Yeah, not when you're at the top, to change golf clubs, to go political, to change your entire show, ye or direction. Yeah. Jeff Benedict, this is his the author of sixteen books, folks. That is a lot of books and that is a lot of research behind those glasses you are looking at there is there are compartments of knowledge. I am jealous. I'm not equipped with The book is called Lebron They're so It's so rich.
It just resonates with so many unique stories, the kind of depth I don't provide on a daily show he does here. Just so profoundly thankful that you took time for us, because I know you do a lot of these and I really enjoyed the last hour, Jeff, I really did. Thank you so much. You do a great interview. Colin, I don't come on anytime. Thanks for such a great conversation the volume. Make sure to check out The Draymond
Green Show. I brought Draymond Green into the volume because one of the more entertaining voices in sports, unique perspective understands behind the rope. Also chops up with guests like Gary Peyton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure download The Draymond Green Show wherever you get your podcasts, only on the Volume podcast Network.