We’ve Got Cox!

Frank Butler 0:17
Hello Busybodies, welcome to another episode of the Busyness Paradox. I'm Frank Butler here with Paul Harvey.

Paul Harvey 0:22
Good day.

Frank Butler 0:23
And we've got a really exciting episode for you guys. We have a special guest today, David Cox is going to be on. And David works at UTC with me. He's in the executive education program. He's the professional development coordinator with us. He does a lot, he does a lot of training, that's kind of his thing is he does a lot, a lot of training. He's a Gallup-certified strengths coach. He actually at one point was the top graduate in the Tennessee Law Enforcement Training Academy. He was a Leo, law enforcement officer, many years ago before converting into training, he's actively involved in community service activities. He was once the president of Toastmasters group, which is the speaking frankly, club here in Chattanooga. And it just has done a lot in the community and continues to do a lot. And he's also working on his doctorate in higher education, leadership and organizational development. So really excited to have David on to discuss the things that he's seen because he does work with individuals on one on one basis as a coach, and he's going to share what he's been seeing and the experiences that he's been having, especially during this pandemic. So, David, welcome to the show. We appreciate you being on.

David Cox 1:30
Thank you glad to be here.

Frank Butler 1:31
One of the things that, you know, we had exchanged an email about one of the things that you had brought up, he said that something is interesting that you're seeing something's going on with this remote workers is that they don't want to do something after they're done working, right? They they go home, or they work from home, whatever their remote working. And next thing, you know, they just want to do less and less outside or after work, right?

David Cox 1:52
Yes, I'm hearing a disturbing trend. And I'm a certified coach, and I work with different companies and, and coaching their people. And one of the questions that I ask during the coaching session is how is your life work balance? And the first answer that I get is, oh, it's fine. But as a good coach, I'm not going to accept that answer. I'm going to dig deeper. What are you doing, then? That's fine outside of work, and I am starting to hear a trend now. That nothing, I don't want to do anything. I don't I just want to sit on the sofa and watch TV or I just eat and sleep. And but I work hard. I do my work. But I don't want to do anything outside of work. Do you? Do you go out? No. Now that things are starting to be relieved? We're starting to get some vaccinations? Are you able to get out? No, no, I just really don't want to go out. I don't want to deal with people. And I've been hearing this from about half of the clients. I've been talking to that. And I've been hearing this is kind of disturbing to me. And this friend of mine who is also a psychologist that I frequently co teach with her. I brought it up to her I said, you know, I'm starting to hear this trend. Now, let me back up. When I first started coaching, we first went into the pandemic. I wasn't hearing that. But after a year, about a year of us being sent home, I started this started coming up that people didn't want to go out. So I asked my psychologist friend, have you heard of this with your clients? Are you hearing some of this? And she said, Yes. And I am one of them. Wow, the thought of going out makes me sick. And she used to travel around the country. She used to do seminars and work with different businesses. Now all she wants to do is stay home. She doesn't want to go to a restaurant to eat, things like that. So she said yes, I'm experiencing that myself. So I'm hearing kind of this disturbing trend. Yeah, and I looked at, there's roughly 158 million workers in the United States. And Gallup put out a poll in January, they said about 56% of those work from home sometimes or always, or work remotely. And if we put that into perspective, that's about 88 million people that are working from home, always or sometimes when breaking that down further. Gallup said how many always work at home that's 33% always at home. 23%, sometimes working from home. So again, let's break that down into numbers because I think it's more meaningful than percentages. If we look at 52 million people are working always from home. 52 million people. So the first thing that I think of is the effects This is having on people. So but The mental aspects, the emotional aspects. But let's put that for us aside for just a moment, we'll come back to that. But then the second thought that hit hit me and I don't like some input from you guys on this is if if we have this many people staying at home, then and they don't want to go out what is going to be the economic impact? What's going to be the economic impact to small businesses, and we see large businesses, Amazon, they're thriving, because people are having things sent home. But what about our small businesses make our economy right? What? What do you guys think about the economic impact that that's going to have

Paul Harvey 5:36
Sounds like, unfortunately, a continuation of a decades long, kind of disturbing trend of economic activity moving away from small businesses and localities to more centralized economic entities that get bigger and bigger and bigger? Right. So that's the pessimistic read on the situation. Anyway,

Frank Butler 5:55
I think, you know, to tie on to that, it gets worse, because you see things like Disney plus, for example, instead of releasing to the theaters first, and then you get it on Disney plus, now you are able to actually get the movies at home, on release day, right? You might pay a premium. But hey, I don't have to go out. So these bigger companies are well positioned in prime to take advantage of that. But again, you know, thinking small business, thinking about the mom and pop shops that rely on people coming to this foot traffic? Yeah, I don't. It's not real promising in some of these areas, you hope it's kind of spread out at least. So it's not hitting any one area too badly. But you know, that that could change drastically, especially in areas like New York or San Francisco places that we're seeing more businesses being okay with remote work. And so people are probably moving away more frequently, which is a double effect REITs, not only they're not going out there living somewhere else, lower cost of living, but they're also not going out where they used to be. And so you've got different numbers to work with there. So I could, I could see this as being a double whammy. Maybe small businesses may maybe need to take this into consideration and adjust. I was going to say exactly that. It's you know, if you're a small business owner, you have to look at what is this new environment going to do to me? And how do I overcome what this could be a threat for some, it could be an opportunity for some small businesses. You know, I always wondered how we have McKay's here, right? So McKay's was one that was interesting to me, they don't have any of their catalog online. And in Paul, you're not familiar with McKay’s. But Mackay's is basically a place that will buy used books or records, music, anything, and then they'll resell it, and they're, they're fantastic. I mean, this place is amazing. But I was really concerned about them, because during the pandemic, they were closed, right, they couldn't have people in, but my gosh, they have a great selection of things. And I was like, Man, this is a place that would really benefit from opening their inventory up to the interwebs. Because they got some things of true value in there. But it would be a whole shift in their business model, right. I mean, they're set up for people to come through an rummage. Whereas then they'd have to have a better inventory management system and know exactly where things are. And that has its own costs, too. But it was a good time to probably invest in that if they haven't, I don't know. I mean, I truly think that the challenge, even small businesses, if they're going to go digital in some way, whether it's a storefront or what have you, probably having to sell through Amazon as a third party type vendor, because you're not going to cut through a lot of the noise either to start marketing, in that national type framework is going to be a struggle,

Paul Harvey 8:30
Right. And unfortunately, that runs the risk of ever-increasing homogenization. And I have seen this happen with some bookstores to keep up with that example, where they expand their online presence, but they're basically acting as a middleman for a large wholesaler. So you're kind of, you know, you feel good supporting the local establishment, but at the same time, you're not really getting the local flavor that you would come to associate with a store like that. So

Frank Butler 9:00
Right, they’re slapping an interface over the wholesaler’s website, or their own storefront, basically. But it's their facade, and it looks Oh, yeah, we're buying from them. They get a cut, but it's certainly not the same as what they would have people were going to the shop itself. Yeah, no, it's it's a it's a terrible trend in some cases, but

Paul Harvey 9:18
This is all quite depressing.

Frank Butler 9:19
Yeah.

David Cox 9:21
Yeah, it's kind of the point

Frank Butler 9:23
Makes me want to stay home more

Paul Harvey 9:26
We have to stop this trend

David Cox 9:28
Yes. So I thought, well, is it just me? It is, there's not a ton of research on this topic right now. At least academic or scholarly research on it. There's been a little bit in the past few years because even prior to the pandemic, people were working from home. But one survey one recent survey that I did find from airtasker. This year that 29% of her work of remote workers are struggling with a work life balance. So other people are experiencing this outside of me. But also see that with a with a US News and World Report, how to report a report recently that said that after the pandemic 44% of those working remotely said they still prefer to work from home, and 39% prefer returning to the office, I thought that was pretty interesting. The people that want to stay home, you know, there's a lot of stress factors. When you're at home, I have been on in meetings where when we first got sent home, and you've probably seen the same thing, you guys probably experienced the same thing, where they're at their dining room table, and the schools were shut down. So they had the kids run around the table, the dogs run around the table, they're trying to do work, some of my clients tell me that they're having to share computers with their kids, because they can they only have one computer, so they're having to work with the computer, the kids are having to jump on to do the schoolwork, you know, or they don't have enough internet access. And so that creates stress within itself, just dealing with the family. So I you know, we've all seen that kind of thing. And that's that was one of the concerns on on the stress factor that then and there's others that we can go back to,

Frank Butler 11:21
I wonder if that would change if with the schools being open. Right. That was one of the downsides of the pandemic is that they had to have the kids at home. But I wonder as that changes how their perspective on working from home would change if they had the quietness of the house?

David Cox 11:35
I was wondering the same, yeah

Paul Harvey 11:38
That's a really good question.

Frank Butler 11:39
Yeah, I'm just curious, I think that I think that would change a lot of the formula for some people. But you know, I think is you're saying right now this is something that's going to be very interesting, because if people are not wanting to go out, or to kind of do something different than being in their house the whole time, or their apartment, or whatever, that's going to create a whole different type of burnout. I feel right, I don't know if it burnouts, the right word, I might be more along the lines of, we're gonna start creating more or less productivity after a while because you're gonna be so demotivated, you're gonna be so almost depressed and assess, maybe it's depression that in some way, I don't know, I don't have that formulated. But I feel like that's going to have some pretty bad impact on productivity without getting a change of scenery.

David Cox 12:20
Burnout is a problem. So I looked into some more research on this. And, yes, burnout is a problem because people don't know when to shut off. They don't know when to quit working. You know, and it really comes down to some of the techniques that I've seen are the managers at the end of the day saying, Let's end the day, you know, let's have a meeting. Let's end the day, let's shut down. But if the managers aren't doing that people don't know when to shut off. Sometimes people are saying they're working so many hours, they're they're had their sleep patterns are bad. I had one student that came to me today and said, My wife has experienced the same thing. She's working from home, she doesn't want to go out. She you know, so pretty much along the same lines I've been hearing I said, Okay, let me ask you, first of all, is your wife had a physical recently? Yes, she has. And I said, How did that go? He said, She's gained weight. She has now a diabetic, her cholesterol levels have gone way up. Okay, so health wise, you know, first thing, she needs to get that under control. He said, all she wants to do on the weekend is stay in bed, because she's mentally so mentally exhausted. And so physically, you know, her health has gone down, she's probably worked so much. I said, When does she sat down, shut down. He said, she doesn't, she doesn't shut down. she just, she just all weekend, all night, she'll stay up till three or four o'clock in the morning working and just didn't know when to quit. So this is a major problem, you've got to create that structure and the managers, really what I'm seeing is those that are healthy and their work relationship, it really comes down a lot of times to the manager, that's that's really kind of what I'm hearing, are they creating that structure for people? Are they allowing them the liberty to shut down when they need to, and that's going to be a healthier and they're more productive and happier workers to that than those that I coach that have managers that create that.

Frank Butler 14:26
And that ties in nicely to the message we try to send quite frequently through this is about structure.

Paul Harvey 14:31
Yep.

Frank Butler 14:32
I think there was one that we haven't talked about yet, but it's an idea that we've got in our pool of ideas and I think we addressed it or at least dropped it in the interview with Steven Robles from Apple Insider. We talked about sort of the boundaries set with email, you know, setting time boundaries on when you will answer emails, read emails, such an important thing I know I've done that with my syllabus for classes and in general, I have no emails zones for work. I won't do any work. I'm in the bedroom. For example, let's say it's a safe zone from work, creating space, right? Again, these ideas of structure. But I think that's a really critical piece in this context, right? Because when you're in a work from home environment, you're not getting the same visual cues you do when you're in office. And that's something that we also have talked about, too, is this idea of buisiness, you know, trying to look busy, at least you've got queues to work off. But once you go home, you know, you don't have those queues, all you have the queues is, oh, somebody sent an email at 10 o'clock at night, and somebody responded at 1005. That means I probably need to be doing the same exact thing. And that's just Yeah, you're right. I mean, they just that eats at you, and it just sticks in there. And it makes you realize that I'm just all about work, and there's no boundaries anymore. And I know I can personally attest to doing that to myself at one point A few years back, and it made me go into a full on panic attack. And I had to go to the hospital for it. And no, I before that, I didn't know what anxiety was. But you know, I learned about that. And from that very issue, though, is not separating from working in life. In essence, right?

Paul Harvey 15:59
I was just having a conversation over the weekend with my cousin about this very thing. He mentioned that the thing he liked about his job was that when his workday is done, he's done out of his mind until the next shift starts. And I said, Yeah, it's been 20 years, since I've been able to say, the job's done. Now, I'm in not work mode, right now, there's always something nagging at the back of your mind, like, geez, you know, I could be doing more of this, I could be doing more of that. I think some of what we've seen during the pandemic, is that effect multiplied over many, many more professions that didn't have that characteristic before.

Frank Butler 16:33
And you know, and that's an interesting point, in, we've seen it too, with some people working from home, that they're not putting in the same amount of time as they were in the office, and not necessarily, they're not getting the job done. It's just more along the lines of when they're on the office, eight hours, they're looking like they're working for eight hours, whereas when they're at home, sometimes they're like, man, I finished what I need to do, let's watch some TV, they're still getting the job done. And then next thing, they're going, Oh, my gosh, you know, is this right? Is this how the day supposed to work. And so there's this kind of like, cognitive dissonance going on in their head, like, I'm at the office eight hours, I'm exhausted when I'm done. Then when I'm at home, and I got a project or assignment done, and I'm not having a feign, buisiness You know, there's that element to maybe that starts feeding this kind of recursive loop of Oh, my gosh, I gotta be working, or at least I'm getting out the appearance, and then it starts to slowly take over right starts to slowly Norway and take over next thing, you know, your full blown, you know, I haven't left the couch. I'm just working. I'm not sleeping. I'm, you know, my health is deteriorating. And that's not where we want to be. And again, I think going back to your point, David, this is what a good manager needs to be looking out for is, am I really helping my team with their structure and their boundaries?

David Cox 17:35
Yeah. And we see, I found a report from Stanford that said that people that are working remotely now that they're, on average, about 22%, more productive than they weren't going to the office. So I'm wondering how much of that are really people really getting burned out? How much of that? Do they not know when to shut down? Is that really necessarily a good thing. But then there's the other side of it, you don't have the commute side to it. So Becker Friedman Institute for economics at the University of Chicago, calculated that 62 point 4 million hours per day was reduced and commuting hours between when we got shut down between the mid March of 2020 to mid September 2020. That is 9 billion hours for those months. Wow.

Frank Butler 18:27
That's almost incomprehensible, isn't it?

Paul Harvey 18:30
It is.

David Cox 18:31
It really is, yeah.

Frank Butler 18:32
Wow.

David Cox 18:32
So they're saving the time and commuting, but and then I guess working, maybe that or extra coursework, you always got those, some workers are probably working less, you know, you have that, too. But so they're saving the commuting hours. And being able to do that. I know that when we first shut down, we were real busy getting everything from, you know, in person to online, just moving, moving, moving. I was getting up early in the morning, and that and I've I've experienced this straight to my computer, and then working too late in the night because we just had to just had to get these things done. And before I know it, I was several months into this thing. I went to the doctor, and she said, Wow, for my annual physical, she said, Wow, you've got to make some changes. Yeah. And at that point, I had been sitting for nine months. Right. And, and it crept up on me, I had been so busy, I didn't realize it. And she said, You've got to make some changes. And and I said, Oh, anyway, what do you suggest? So I got a health coach and then all that I lost 25 pounds, all my numbers now are back to normal as of last week, you know, so I'll learn personally a lot through that experience. And it's helped me as a coach in coaching my clients, but that's really the first thing that I asked them now, when's the last time you had a physical? You know, already? Yeah, you may be saving some time. So now the first thing that I do is In the morning, I don't go straight to my computer, I don't turn it on, I have scheduled breaks throughout the day it's on my calendar, nobody can schedule those in. So if it's a 15 minute break, I get on the treadmill, go for a walk, whatever, I just get a refresh there a schedule my lunchtime in there. But and I do not eat at my computer, you know, I'm make it a point, I will walk away, I will eat a healthy lunch, I do not eat in front of my computer, I do not take my breaks in front of my computer. And then when I shut it down at the end of the day, I close it. It's done, you know when I have to get certain things done, but once those things are done for the day, so I have created my own structure. So even if you have a manager, that's not creating that structure for you, you can create your own structure and get healthy, you know that have your numbers checked. You know, one of the things that I was talking to my student earlier that was talking about his wife, one of the things that I asked him, I said, Well, this is really touchy kind of situation. But do you think that since your wife is put on weight, he said she's put on a lot of weight? And I said, Do you think she's embarrassed? Is that one reason she doesn't want to go out and be seen in public? And he said, Absolutely, you nailed it. And so that's one aspect too.

Frank Butler 21:18
Sure. It's a self esteem, confidence type thing, right? I mean, if that makes perfect sense, you know, just so much. So I mean, it's not and it's not vanity, right? It's like, things have changed so much. And you're concerned that you're the only one who's gone through this when you know, that lady is definitely not alone. Right. I think plenty of people have gone through the exact same scenario. I mean, we hear about it, right? That's one of the concerns that a lot of physicians are having after the pandemic is, what is this long term impact on the sedentary aspects that have been created as a result. And I like what you said, Now, we've talked about this idea of Nixon, which is the art of doing nothing, like intentionally doing nothing. Now, meditation, you know, there's all sorts of things out there. But one of the things that I have, I've said too, and I like that you said it is use your calendar function, create breaks in then creates space. That's something I don't think we talked about enough here. But we need to create space, we need to create space from your work environment and create boundaries internally. And that's one thing that I have talked about, to some extent is we've got to create a boundary internally. So you have work zones in your house, but then your apartment, but then you have to have areas that are definitely safe havens or safe zones. And I like the idea of just like not eating lunch at the computer, right? Just to change that mindset. There are little tricks that people should take 15 minutes Hey 15 minutes just go out. Walk around. I like that. I think that's great because that means that you're moving you're getting some exercise some fresh air maybe go outside if it's not 9000 degrees like it is here right now. That's why I have a treadmill rainy days hot days. treadmill treadmill. Yeah, I agree. You know, join a gym I guess I don't peloton total, whatever, man. It's brutal outside. But yeah, I mean, there's there's options out there. And

Paul Harvey 23:01
I've heard a lot of people having success with the apple fitness stuff that rolled out last year. Yeah. I haven't tried it myself. But apparently a lot of people discovered that during the pandemic and had good luck with it.

Frank Butler 23:12
Yeah, we started using it here. So Endia and I both have Apple Watches India will connect to the Apple TV because it checks your heart rate you see on the screen. And they've got great videos. I mean, depending on what you want to be doing. They got good core strengthening, they got weightlifting, they've got dance. I mean, it's not bad. I mean, truly, it's not bad. If you're in that Apple ecosystem. Obviously, there's other choices. If you're not in the apple ecosystem, I happen to be fully immersed. To the point that I think they owe my soul at this point. But you know,

David Cox 23:41
My health insurance pays for my health coach. So you might you know, if you need that, that might be something to check into. And she makes me send her my weight every week. I have to get on the scale. And it's actually a feed through my phone that will digit so she can see, can I find it better getting on the scale every day, if I'm on the scale every day, I'm accountable every day and she's seeing it and she knows exactly and I don't want to disappoint my fitness or my health coach. So I am watching my weight. So someone to held you accountable like that. Even if it's a friend, a spouse, you know, significant other, whatever someone watching, watching that and you're held accountable to it really, really kind of makes a difference.

Frank Butler 24:26
I like that too. Is the accountability so easy to break accountability with yourself. It's much harder when there's a third person involved.

Paul Harvey 24:33
Accountability is really part and parcel with structure and a lot of ways it keeps you honest.

Frank Butler 24:38
Right. And I have a health coach too… mine’s focused on on stress sleep. I went through a period where I was struggling with sleeping through the night and I was waking up way too early. I would go to bed at 11 and wake up at three in sight. Why? I mean there's no reason for it but draft getting old and I tell you what, exercise does help.

David Cox 24:58
Yeah, one thing my health coach said is we want you to wear your body out, you know, be physically tired at the end of the day, so you do sleep better.

Frank Butler 25:07
And that's a good point. That's another reason why I think we're gonna see some issues too is that people probably aren't sleeping as well, in general, just because we're not being as mobile or active. We have an employer here in town, that their parking is about what 10 minute walk into where they actually start working. And it's intentional, because apparently that 10 or 15 minute walk is the equivalent of drinking a cup of coffee. But having some walk, there is not a bad thing, you know, and that you're replicating that in some extent, what I, one of the things I love hearing those people who recreate their commute, when they don't have to commute, so what they'll do is they'll throw in their podcasts or their music, and then they'll go walk around the block a few times to emulate that they're going to work, but you're killing two birds with one stone with that, right, you're getting separation, you're getting some fresh air, you're getting some exercise, you're still getting your podcast time or music time, but you didn't have at work. And then you go back to your house or your room, your office, apartment, whatever, and you go to it more refreshed. And I thought that's still interesting is that a 15 minute walk or 10 to 15 minute walk can be the equivalent of drinking a cup of coffee.

David Cox 26:08
Yeah, it makes a big difference. The TELUS data did a survey for employees, and about half of the remote employees that they surveyed said that they have poor sleep patterns. So they were about half of the remote workers are reporting that now I'm not sure how that compares to the general population, or those that aren't working remotely. They didn't report that. But I thought that was interesting.

Frank Butler 26:32
Yeah, you know, that's one thing that I'd like to see more studies do is sort of give us at least what is common or typical in the other group. Paul, and I just recorded an episode The other day, we're going to be talking about some of these numbers. And, you know, we do want to know more about what are we comparing against, right? What was that benchmark before and after, or during even?

David Cox 26:50
Yeah, and let me talk about another problem that I'm hearing. And this is back to back meetings. For those that are working remotely. When you think about it, you know, I have an appointment, I have a meeting from 10 to 1030, that are in another meeting from 1031 to 11. And then another meeting and back to back to back. Some of my clients are telling me they do this for hours. Back to Back meetings, we talked about going physically we go from one meeting to the next we have that 10 minute walk, we have that 15 minute walk or we have that separation. So we can decompress from our previous meeting, get ready for the next meeting. And workers are telling me they don't have time to get ready for the next meeting. They don't even almost remember two meetings ago, because it's just back to back to back. Because they they say oh, you don't have to travel that time. Now we can be more productive by meeting sooner. So we don't have that downtime. A lot of times when you have the back to back, meaning again, that comes down to just structure. So make sure you're not scheduling yourself, if you have control of that not everyone has control of that I understand. But that's, you know, when you think about it, I really hadn't thought about it that much until people are bringing it up, and how crammed they're getting from back to back meetings for hours.

Frank Butler 28:09
Yeah, you know, and that's something that's interesting, right? Because, you know, yeah, it's a time to go use the restroom, or just to kind of absorb what you had just discussed, or take some additional nose wrap up the brief in some cases, right. But there's another thing that's missing in there too, is that interpersonal relationships that you're working on during the after those meetings are over, right? You see somebody at that meeting you hadn't seen in a while and you're like, hey, Susie, I hadn't seen you in a while, what's going on. And this is after the meeting is over. And you're like just taking a few moments to reconnect and work on your network. And we're not getting that either. Now we're just going meeting meeting and that was the one thing as much as I love zoom, I love not having to go into the office every day, we had a retirement during the zoom era. And you know, there's 37 people on and it was so many people, you just want to go have a one on one with like, Hey, how you been and just shake their hand and, and talk to them a little bit. That's the that's that other element that while zooms great in working from home is awesome. There are some times that having some true, you know, face to face, one on one kind of things are great.

David Cox 29:04
Yeah, cuz we're social beings. I mean, human beings are social, we need that. And if you're having back to back meetings, you don't want to socialize outside of work, you don't want to leave the home, you're missing a lot. You know, a lot of these symptoms are very typical of depression, anxiety, stay in bed all day, you know, when you're not at work in those kind of things. That's not healthy. And those meetings, you know, how many times do you hang back and drink a cup of coffee or you get to know somebody that you really don't know, you get to know him better? And those kind of situations are important, you know, so we don't need to miss those. You know, are you allowing Tom in your virtual meetings for that virtual get together some of that social social time.

Frank Butler 29:50
I think you had mentioned something about that. Some managers have taken the initiative to create 30 minute breaks where they get the team together to not talk business but just

David Cox 29:57
Yes, I have hearing that some of the managers are taking 30 minutes first thing Monday morning, may or maybe not first thing, but maybe nine o'clock or so after all the rush gets through, or that the end of the day on Friday and and start the weekend. But what they're doing is they're getting together getting the whole team together, and they don't talk about business. How's your weekend? What do you have coming up this weekend, how was your past weekend, how's how's the kids doing? It's a social time, right. And it allows people to talk about themselves and build the camaraderie with each other. And it's not talking about business, it's building a trusting team, they said they trust each other more when they can do that. And we know that plus, we've seen all those studies how important that is. But building that trust within the team, and just being able to breathe, you know, just just means so much. And it's just a 30 minute time, I mean, 30 minutes isn't going to take away that much from the workweek. But it's so important, you know, they're hearing happier employer employees that are are able to do that with their teams, as opposed that to those that never hear anything, one insurance company that I talked to, when they got sent home last year, they were used to working in cubicles, and very close knit very tight, they got sent home. And they had never talked to their co workers again, they don't socialize, they don't talk business, everything's done on the computer, have very few meetings, there. They're pretty much isolated. And everyone from this insurance company that I have talked to really feels isolated, they feel unappreciated, they're not getting recognized for hard work. They're that so their lack of motivation is really coming in is causing all kinds of issues, you know, because of the way this is structured, but you know, this so important, I just don't think we need to miss those kind of things. And the bring in the social aspect. And we talked about change management. And you know, and I teach that one of the things kind of at the bottom, is that social part of change in and that's something that, you know, students, they want to just Oh, yeah, I'll ignore that. But it's so important can't change without the people.

Frank Butler 32:18
Yeah, you just can't change without the people. I mean, they, they have to be in it. Right? Because you have to convince them. And the only way to do that. So that social group, you know, I think this is something that's very interesting to address is that idea of creating structure for social interactions within the team, something that I don't think many people are talking about. And I can see this happening. I mean, you know, you're bringing this actual experience that you've got, I could see how that happens, right? I mean, I'm one of those people that I feel bad, I don't keep in touch with my friends, or with people very well. I'm not one who's an active, let me go out and email type. And then there's a point in time where you get too distant from that. It's like, man, I should have reached out, you know, a month ago. And then you're like, well, now you feel bad if you reach out because you're like, now I'm just a bad friend or a bad coworker or whatever. And then four months later, it's like somebody sends you an email, and you're like, Oh, yeah, you respond right away. And I'm one of those people I'm really good at responding, I'm terrible at leading the action, I feel terrible about it and makes it worse, right? Because it compounds the problem. And I'm wondering how much of that is going on, which is why a good manager has to intervene, right, you have to create structure around some of that. And this is something I would actually like to see if somebody is doing this out in the workplace. And so if somebody reaches out and tells us how your company is doing it, or how you're doing it with your team, love to hear it. I mean, this idea of the coffee break is great, right? web virtual 30 minutes. But again, you know, one of the challenges is that you're not getting the one on ones necessarily that you have when you're in the cube farm in the office. So

Paul Harvey 33:44
You know, one thing that we did that was really kind of cool. I don't know whose idea was my work. We only did this once, unfortunately, but it was like a Thursday afternoon. And whoever wanted to do this could sign into zoom. And at some point, I guess zoom has like a randomize button. Like they just paired everybody off into random pairs of people and just go chitchat for 20 minutes or something like that. And so like the breakout rooms Yeah, breakout rooms, but some random person the random breakout Yeah, someone that you probably vaguely were aware of at work, or it might be someone that you knew really well, you know, it was all at the chance. But as awkward as that seemed going into it. Oh my god, this is gonna be super awkward. I felt so kind of rejuvenated afterwards. Like, wow, I really missed that just the random one on one conversation.

Frank Butler 34:26
So that's, so that's a great example of something that tried to do if your manager and your team get some social interaction, use the randomize breakouts to say, you got to break them out into three people and just let them talk. Probably two is better.

Paul Harvey 34:38
I think so that's how we did it. And it worked. So

David Cox 34:41
I tell you another one that I heard was one of the managers sent all his team members $20 and then we're going to meet for a for a party, sort of virtual party after work when one night so everyone was to go buy their favorite beverage and bring it to their company. And they had a social time like it after work one day. And so they, you know, some somebody brought a lot, a whole case of Gatorade, and then somebody else bought some whiskey. But, you know, whatever, you know you do you it's whatever.

Frank Butler 35:14
I like that about the flexibility, right? It's what you like

David Cox 35:17
Right. And they tell me that they went out pretty well, they were kind of reluctant at first, because they'd never done anything like that, but but they ended up laughing, having a good time, just just a social time. So that's an that's another idea.

Frank Butler 35:30
Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, like that. I mean, as we can see, from the start of this conversation, lifework balance is out of whack. And the manager is going to have to come somehow come and step in, and create some structure around at least generating a little bit of downtime with the group in some way, which is healthy, get that social interaction. I know, I'm an introvert, for example. And I know that the pandemic made it worse in a lot of ways. And I finally forced myself to get out the other day, I kind of enjoyed it, because I felt this Paul said, he's, you know, I felt refreshed. So, you know, there's some things that are on the person. But there's a lot of things that are also on the company that can help spur that. And I think, you know, you said it to having a health coach, if your company has that, get on it. If your company doesn't, if you're the HR folks, or we're over benefits, work with your insurance companies, see if they can provide it. Because there is a lot of benefit to having somebody you're accountable to that. And not only is it the accountability, but they can teach you or tell you about things that can help manage whatever you're dealing with, I think that was a key thing, having somebody who's actually trained in this area, is hugely beneficial to find the right path for you, because they're going to know multiple methods that are going to work better for you, versus you trying to figure it out on your own. And again, the best part is that they're somebody you don't know it's confidential. So you can truly tell them what works and what doesn't work, and they're going to work with you. Right, I think that's invaluable.

David Cox 36:54
There's a couple of things that I would like to bring up before we close out today. And this is recognizing changes in behavior. So if you see co workers or you're a manager, and you have employees, what do you look out for? Where do these things start to pop up? So some of the things that I've found to watch out for is changes in communication pattern. If a person is typically pretty outgoing, they're they're allowed, but then you see a change where there's a lag, or there's delay, you know, these are signs that maybe the the employee is struggling or a co worker is struggling, changes in presentation. Do they seem tired, disheveled? You know, people use ozone fatigue? I don't want to turn on my camera because of zoom fatigue. Well, is it bad? Or do they really not comb their hair that day? You know, are they still in their pajamas? And that's the reason they don't want to turn on their camera? and zoom fatigue is a very real thing. I'm not taking away from that. But do you sometimes have your employees turn on the camera? What do they look like? You know, how are they? Do they seem distracted? Are they on edge? Are they more irritable than usual? Well, if you have kids running around, and dogs running around your dining room table, yes, you're going to seem more irritable. That's an abnormal circumstance. But if you're under normal circumstances, and the employee just seems to get be getting more intense, more irritable, watch out for those things. If you see them canceling meetings a lot, or they're tardy, or they're forgetting a lot, those are signs to watch out for, could be some signs that you're in trouble, or they need some help. There's signs of depression, over productivity is one sign of depression, working long days, or unusual hours. Interesting. So here's what the manager or a co worker needs to do. Don't be afraid to ask how someone's doing. Take action. How are you doing? You know, how how's How you doing outside of work? How are you doing at work? How are you doing? How's the family? You know, asking some of those questions. Don't be afraid, you know, sometimes we see those, those people and, and they don't look just right, and you feel like something's wrong. And we were afraid to ask, we don't want to impose, that you could really be helping someone out, you know, don't be afraid to ask.

Frank Butler 39:16
So I'm wondering if it might be beneficial, then, for a manager to maybe do like a bi weekly, just one on one with with each of their employees during these types of remote sessions. I mean, it's really easy to not worry about it when you're seeing them face to face every day or three days of the week, or two days out of week or whatever it might be if you have some sort of hybrid scheduling. But if they're all remote, yeah, having that little bit more frequent check in and just one on one, right. I think it'll be a great way again, develop the trust with that employee in yourself but at the same time, it also lets you look for some of those cues because you're gonna want to have the camera on you're gonna want to be able to see them in the eyes. And you know, it might be weird because you want to look somebody in the eyes, you have to look at your camera and then you can't see them and then, you know, but at least you're seeing them and somewhat. And that might be a good way of at least keeping tabs and creating some of that social need or filling that social need that people do have in the event that person's not getting it. And being flexible. If you can see that they're a little disheveled, maybe upping the amount of times you want to meet with them, even if it's only 10 minutes, right? Hey, I think we should just meet, I just want to, you know, check in, you don't have to say what it's about. It's like, hey, just I'm trying to touch base with everybody and keep up and make sure that we're all at our best, right, whatever that means.

Paul Harvey 40:29
It's quite possible people haven’t asked that question of themselves, you know, how are you doing? Gee, How am I doing?

Frank Butler 40:34
So their boss needs to be doing it. And then it goes all the way up to the CEO who needs to be doing with his or her team. And then the board of directors has to be doing that with the CEO, right?

Paul Harvey 40:44
And the customer with the cashiers, everybody's got to be checking on each other [laughter]

Frank Butler 40:47
That's right, we got…hey, that's it, right? We need to all look out for each other,

David Cox 40:51
Absolutely. Ask ask employees what they need. managers need to be asking, What do you need? Do you have everything you need to do your job? how, you know, what do you need? So there's some good questions to ask, and don't be satisfied with I'm fine. You know, do like I do dig deeper? How are you? Fine. You know, how are you using certain equipment? In our? Do you have enough notebook paper? You know, to make notes on? Are you buying your own? Do we need to supply it? How does your company do it? I don't know. But, but what do they need, right. And then another idea is to have a wellness seminar for your team. These are things to watch out for, have a professional come in, and do a 30 minute presentation on staying well, working remotely, you know, just for your team.

Frank Butler 41:41
That's one that we've talked about a little bit and probably need to talk about more, I think that's something that's so important is you got to train differently now, right, people have got to be thinking differently about the environment, companies need be thinking differently about their employees and their well being and what that means, as we shift into our new normal, you know, and if companies are doing it, right, there's probably going to be a lot of varieties of workers, right, those who are going to be worked from home, those are going to be full, true remote, they're gonna be in a different part of the country, not close to HQ, or wherever their office would be, there's going to be those who are in a hybrid situation is going to be those who are in the office full time, and making sure those managers aren't biased in some way to those who are coming into the office today, right? We've got to be looking differently at how we train people and how we erase those boundaries and the biases that can happen, especially if you're in an evaluative position.

Paul Harvey 42:31
So if you teach management classes…I guess that's on us, isn't it Frank?

Frank Butler 42:35
It partially is. Yeah, absolutely. And actually, it was the same way of I think this is a great point, we it's on us, my buddy, john Martin and I who we went to the Ph. D. program together, we wrote a paper after the CEOs all sign that whole, you know, no longer focusing on the shareholders being the primary stakeholders. But broadening the definition of stakeholders for a company, you know, even said that, on the academic side, we have to do a better job now training the future leaders to understand what that means. And I think that's the case here, too, is that we've got to be training that. And, David, you're in a great position, because you're in the exec ed programs, and you do live coaching with management, and then your work with the companies out there. And so I'm sure you're getting tasked with some of that, especially because, as you said, change management is one of the things you teach. And this is a relatively substantial change in thought, I think for a lot of people.

David Cox 43:24
Absolutely. And some of these these things are subtle, right, that you have to watch out for. And but I do like your, your part. Yeah, absolutely. Employees are feeling isolated that work remotely. And the manager may not appreciate the amount of work that they're doing, as opposed to the ones he sees right in front of them. Because Yeah, that bias is going to enter in, I think, yeah, that's, that's something we need to really, really teach. Yeah,

Frank Butler 43:53
I agree. Well, David, we appreciate your time. I know you had a long day already today. I know you got some more coming up. And so again, thank you for your time. Thank you for your insights and what you're seeing out there with the boots on the ground and love to have you back for sure. Oh, love to come back. Absolutely enjoyed it. Thank you.

Paul Harvey 44:12
Thank you. Wow, that was a lot of information. And I understand why he does what he does, because I think he's very good at conveying lots of information in a clear and understandable manner. So much counterintuitive stuff. They're coming out of the pandemic, and you're having this paradoxical behavior where people don't want to travel, don't want to do all the things that we've been wanting to do for the last year. You know, I kind of feel that way a bit myself, like I am vaccinated. I get on a plane, you know, we keep talking about me going down to Chattanooga for a few days, do some recording, and I just can't like motivate myself to book a flight. You think after 15 months of the house arrest, I'd be dying to get out there. And it's like I thought it would be fun to visit you guys and Do all that, but the process of getting there and like dealing with people and airports. And so I think I learned a little bit about myself during that conversation with Dave.

Frank Butler 45:11
Yeah, I agree. I feel the same way about the traveling thing. Indian, I've done some small travel, we both vaccinated. We've gone to Nashville, we've gone to Pigeon Forge, you know, just a little short weekenders. But yeah, there's something about the people, right, so that the first the chaos of dealing with the actual travel, right, but then just not being in crowds of people again, and it's just, me and I are both like, hey, just not really enjoying the enjoying being away not enjoying the throngs of people is weird, because that's truly the the impact of the pandemic, right, just not having been around a lot of people.

Paul Harvey 45:49
I think that's just not we're not used to it anymore. Yeah. You know, on the one hand, it's like we spent a year being afraid of being around other people possibly getting getting sick. But I don't think that's it, at least not for me. That's not why I don't want to be around throngs of people. Again, vaccinated. It's, I'm just not used to that anymore. I think we can have to ease back into it.

Frank Butler 46:12
I'm trying to remember one of one of my friends, or co-workers too she's, she was talking to somebody else. And I believe the word that that person uses "peopley", "it's too peopley out there." Too peopley And I was like, I love that. I think that captures the essence of what's going on.

Paul Harvey 46:28
I'm gonna take that and run with it. It's too peopley.

Frank Butler 46:31
And I tend to agree with that. It just seems a little too peopley. No, I have enjoyed getting back out and doing small group things. Like I've spent more time at one of the companies here that I'm on the advisory board of, you know, because it's been a small group. And it's been great because you get to interact and talk shop. And that's fun. But yeah, it's like travel. I want to travel but the idea of being around so many people, it's too peopley.

Paul Harvey 46:56
Too peopley. Yeah, I like the small group idea. That'd be fun.

Frank Butler 47:00
Yeah.

Paul Harvey 47:01
Not so peopley.

Frank Butler 47:02
Right.

Paul Harvey 47:02
And, you know, I'd also like to have Dave, come back and tell us about his time as a law enforcement officer.

Frank Butler 47:07
Yep. No, absolutely.

Paul Harvey 47:08
We didn't have time to, you know, what's the word I'm looking for? To plumb the depths of his work experience in that this time around, but it'd be fun to have him back and talk about his observations of that whole line of work.

Frank Butler 47:20
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he's got lots more that he can bring to the show. Great, great person to have on so looking forward to having him back. And thanks for listening, everybody.

Paul Harvey 47:30
Thanks, everybody. The Busyness Paradox is distributed by Paul Harvey and Frank Butler. Our theme music is adapted from “It’s Business Time” by Jemaine Clements and Brett McKenzie, our production manager is Justin Wuntaek. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And we'd love to hear from you. Please any questions, comments or ideas for future episode topics to input at Busynessparadox.com or find us on Twitter. Also, be sure to visit our website, busynessparadox.com to read our blog posts and for links to the articles and other resources mentioned in today's show. Finally, please take a moment to rate and follow or subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts Spotify, I-Heart Radio, Google podcasts or your preferred podcast provider

Transcribed by https://otter.ai