The Four-Day Work Week

SPEAKERS
Paul Harvey, Frank Butler

Paul Harvey  00:19
Hello busybodies, welcome to another episode of the Busyness Paradox. This is not Frank Butler, the guy who usually says that this is co-host, Paul Harvey flying solo at the moment, because Frank is hunkered down as tornadoes rip through his part of Tennessee. Now, it's not often that we get to brag about the weather here in New Hampshire, so I'm just gonna enjoy this for a moment. But yeah, all kidding aside, Frank is probably still alive and should be back with us next week if his house doesn't blow down again. Thankfully, Frank and I have a backlog of episodes that we've recorded, but kind of became dated before we were able to release them. Today's episode, for example, is chock full of New Year's banter. But it also focuses on a topic that as fate would have it came roaring back into the headlines this week, when the country of Spain announced that it would begin a trial implementation of four day workweeks. So with gratitude to the Spaniards for making this topic suddenly relevant again. We hope that you'll enjoy our discussion of eternal three day weekends, personal structure, and yo-yo tricks. In this episode of the Busyness Paradox.

Frank Butler  01:38
Hello, busybodies. Welcome to another episode of the Busyness Paradox. I'm Frank Butler, here with Paul Harvey.

Paul Harvey  01:44
Good day.

Frank Butler  01:45
And on today's episode, we're actually going to start this episode with a happy new year. And one of the things Paul and I were just discussing, prior to the start of this episode, was the idea of what our new year's resolutions were. And we realized quickly that New Year's resolutions really don't work, what we talked about his themes, what is our theme for this year, instead of a resolution, something that you can work toward and build up? And so Paul, what is your theme for this new year?

Paul Harvey  02:18
So first, you know, credit where credit's due, everything I'm about to say, and this whole idea is blatantly being ripped off from a different podcast called cortex, which is a pretty cool show, I recently discovered, I guess they do an episode every year on what their theme for the upcoming year will be. And there is research to back up this idea that New Year's resolutions aren't a great idea. In a lot of cases,

Frank Butler  02:42
Because you see it right? All the people go to the gym, and they're like, Okay, I'm gonna get fit, and then they go two weeks to the gym, and then they just pay that membership for the rest of the year. They've all used it for two weeks.

Paul Harvey  02:50
Yeah, back when I was, you know, not a dad and used to go to the gym, I remember, January was always a good month to take off and let your body kind of recover because the gym would be just this absolute disaster of New Year's resolution people. And by February, they'd be gone. But yeah, a lot of the goal setting the research and stuff we've talked about, it's, there's a lot of ways that New Year's resolutions can backfire on you. So in that cortex podcast, they were talking about the value of having instead of single finite goals having themes for the year. So they were talking about the past themes that they'd use, one was a year of clarity, for example, a year of refinement and that kind of thing. So personally, I like this idea. And I said, You know, I think 2021 I'm gonna try this theme thing, and thought about it for a while, and then boom, it just hit me, it's going to be my year of structure. And that's a recurring theme in this show as well, that, like everything, too much structure can be bad, but a lot of us err on the side of too little structure. And we think that's a good thing. But then we find that we're not using our time very effectively. And as we've talked about in the few episodes, we see this in the workplace. And a lot of jobs that don't have a huge amount of structure are sometimes referred to as knowledge, work jobs. And in that one episode was whichever episode it was, we were talking about how a lack of structure can actually, paradoxically, create more busy work or less efficient use of your time, because you're trying to create your own structure, and that not only can be less efficient for you, but it affects other people too. So emails, it was the episode about emails, that's the one. So you're shooting off more emails, asking for things, setting things up in a sort of a subconscious desire to create structure for yourself. And in the process, you're making more busywork for yourself and other people, all the mental health benefits of structure that we don't often realize that we try it. I think that's what I'm going after this year, and I think it fits well, the theme of our show, and I think all of us, you me, our listeners consider a year of structure.

Frank Butler  05:02
Ironically, Endia and I, so Endia is my wife, we - 

Paul Harvey  05:06
India is a country Frank.

Frank Butler  05:08
Well, her name starts with an E, not the i. So, it is different than this. But - 

Paul Harvey  05:16
I didn't know that.

Frank Butler  05:17
You should have seen it on the card.

Paul Harvey  05:19
I did, I did. [laughter] This whole time, I thought you were just like, hypothetically married to a country, huh. So it's just a real person?

Frank Butler  05:26
If I were to pick a country, that would be a good one. I do, like,

Paul Harvey  05:29
Oh boy. Some of the best food I've ever had in that part of the world, especially being a vegetarian. 

Frank Butler  05:36
Yeah, well, that's true. You are 

Paul Harvey  05:37
Three minutes, and we're so far off [laughter]

Frank Butler  05:39
Welcome to Paul and my usual conversation streaks, you would think we need some sort of ADHD medicine. Oh, wait, I am on some and yet, still, you know, but it's funny because Endia and I have been talking about how we're going to do a little bit more structure ourselves, we were discussing that we do a lot better when we have things sort of planned out. And we've been doing this with meals already, we sort of have been planning meals out in advance. So we go grocery shopping every Sunday. And we plan out the meals for the week. So we know what we need to get. We're actually using one of those home delivery things for food too. So we have these meal kits being sent to the house. And that gives us some structure. And we actually do better with that it keeps us from going to fast food more frequently, it helps us eat better. So that's where we're finding that structure is already beneficial. And I think the other aspect that we're going to work on to, at least I am is going to try to do more structure, I'm going to now carve out on my calendar times to work on research classwork, and so on and so forth. So I'm willing to try to do more with my calendar. And the struggle for me is going to be not sticking to it. Because it's really easy to get that notification that this calendar appointments coming up. And especially if there's no one who's I need to be accountable to during that time, it's gonna be much harder, but it's going to be about training myself. So trying to work on that structure and making that part of my routine and trying to hold myself more accountable. I think that's going to be the key for me in this 2021.

Paul Harvey  07:15
Those are good examples. I mean, honestly, the food one, I think is a perfect example that everyone can relate to and try out easily. Just structuring that aspect of your life has so many ramifications, time wasted saying what's for dinner, and inefficient use of time at the grocery store. Because you're wandering up and down the aisles thinking what should I get? This looks good. This jumbo pack of Double Stuff Oreos and throw that in the car.

Frank Butler  07:40
I need those. Right now.

Paul Harvey  07:41
Hold on I'm going to grab some actually. 

Frank Butler  07:44
Mega stuff

Paul Harvey  07:44
Mega stuff... 

Frank Butler  07:45
My new favorite, mega stuff.

Paul Harvey  07:47
Why did they have to unleash that on the world man. Oof. Good times. 

Frank Butler  07:52
As you said, it's an easy way to start. But really, we focus in on the dinners, because that's the one that we find ourselves wanting to go out more for. And that's where we actually found a lot of benefits. And then of course, one of the things we discovered in that process is that Indian I will actually cook dinner together. And it actually is kind of nice, right? Because it gives us a time that not only are we learning how to cook has both of us kind of stank, which is part of the reason why we went with one of these meal kit services. But the other aspect too is it gives us some really good quality time. There's not a TV going, we got a little background music, that music we're enjoying. We're just doing stuff. And it's really fun. And we make something as fun to create, right? It's fun to have that creation. So we find it's a great thing, especially if you're a couple, I know it's a little harder to do if you're single or what have you. But it's it is a low hanging fruit to start creating some level structure. Especially if you want to be healthier, too. There's a lot of control that you can get from writing down what you're going to eat and just start doing it. And then even just using your calendar app in your phone and saying, Okay, this is dinnertime, this is what I want to prep, I want to build in that 20 to 30 minutes to cook. And of course, it only takes like 10 minutes to eat. So you're just carving out basically less than an hour of your day to really do this.

Paul Harvey  09:13
If you add up the time you would have spent staring into the fridge

Frank Butler  09:17
Or driving to go pick something up or having somebody delivered the extra money you're paying for the delivery, 

Paul Harvey  09:21
You'll come out ahead real fast. 

Frank Butler  09:23
Yep, really fast

Paul Harvey  09:24
That's the nice thing about structure. And I think this idea of aiming for themes as opposed to specific goals in this context is that there's so many what's the word I'm looking for benefits like indirect benefits of what you're doing. So your structure itself has benefits as we often talk about but then you're also it's not too long for you're getting into health benefits, financial benefits, all kinds of stuff.

Frank Butler  09:45
The financial side, actually it does add up because you don't go to the store and start spending a lot of money because you're just buying stuff because you're seeing and going "oh, this might be good to have." And then also, you're not just going and getting in your car and driving through a drive thru. And while it's quote unquote cheap to go to the drive thru it actually isn't. Because you're putting the wear and tear on your car, the gas that it takes to get there, or even having food delivered, you're always paying the delivery fee and having to tip drivers. I mean, truly, those meal kits, for example, they come down to it's about $10 per person. And if you think about it, that's really about what you're spending on a fast food trip 

Paul Harvey  10:23
All-in, yeah

Frank Butler  10:24
And an easy level. So it there's a lot there that we think is beneficial. So it's worth trying out. If it's not your thing, that's fine. We could certainly recommend other structural activities for you, such as, you know, blocking out time for yourself or blocking out time to say, Hey, you know what, this time we're going to go to a movie,

Paul Harvey  10:45
I think blocking out time is maybe the first step, at least in my journey towards more structure is going to be the first steps blocking out time in advance.

Frank Butler  10:55
Well, we do that with this podcast you know,

Paul Harvey  10:57
We do

Frank Butler  10:57
So Paul, and I meet every Tuesday and Thursday, we have a planning session on Tuesday, where we discuss what happened, we debrief really on other stuff, we talked about ideas. And then Thursday, we sit down and actually record these. And that structure has been really good for both of us, because it gives us something that we know we have to work around for starters. And two, I think it helps us develop the way we handle and approach the podcast and discuss other business related aspects about managing this podcast because there's a lot to it. It's not just simply throwing down some tracks and being done and packaging it up. We have to, you know, go to our website, make sure things are looking good. They're making sure things align, and then our podcasting host. And it's just there's a lot

Paul Harvey  11:43
Push back our legions of wannabe sponsors, you know, it's it's...there's a lot to it

Frank Butler  11:47
Exactly. I mean, HR tracker, you know, those kinds of folks have

Paul Harvey  11:51
The lawyers and everything. Yep, yep.

Frank Butler  11:53
So. But the reality is that there's benefit to having structure and we see that more and more as we've been doing this podcast and talking about these things, it really has been giving us structure to our ideas as well, which is pretty awesome.

Paul Harvey  12:08
We're living the experience. We're practicing what we preach.

Frank Butler  12:11
Exactly. We really are. And with that, it actually second topic. Well no actually segues in perfectly with the topic. Yeah. One of the things that we keep talking about is the idea of focusing on output for managers for companies, and stepping away from the notion of the 40 Hour Workweek

Paul Harvey  12:30
And not just for managers,

Frank Butler  12:31
Right

Paul Harvey  12:32
For everybody,

Frank Butler  12:32
For everybody. Well, you know that well, we're saying you just have to execute this. I gotcha. Yep. But yes, exactly. And what we really want to get into is the idea of, maybe there's some structure needed to help start that path towards understanding how to implement an output based type environment. And while we're not getting rid of the 40 Hour Workweek in this approach, we are doing is actually giving a little bit more balance for that work life balance, and going to a four day workweek. The notion of four day workweeks has been validated in a lot of research by different companies and different researchers, as being something that does increase worker productivity, some context. Yeah. And in some context, and some benefits, ancillary benefits of more time to get errands done during the week, whatever it is that your into, you get more personal time. And that way, you don't let certain activities slip, right, you should get an annual physical, for example, and it's some companies would make you take off work for that, that's crazy, or going to the dentist twice a year to your eye doctor. Those are things that oftentimes you have to take sick leave for some time off. What we're saying is that, hey, if you give a four day work week, it's actually better for everybody, right?

Paul Harvey  13:41
And let's clarify that point that we're not strictly saying, Give your employees a break, you know, like, just give him three day weekends instead of four. The idea here is that if done properly, and in the right context, this really can be a win-win, it doesn't have to mean you're getting less stuff done, the company that pays you to do your job isn't necessarily getting less for what they're paying you. If it's done properly. Structured correctly, you're getting focusing on the outputs that you should be getting the same outputs in four days instead of five.

Frank Butler  14:16
Right? And I think to take that to the next level, too. If you're not ready to break your mind of the 40 Hour Workweek, you can still have 40 hours done in four days. It's a little bit longer, but it really does have its payoffs and benefits and one of the things that

Paul Harvey  14:33
There is a bit of - Sorry, finish your thought but I want to come back to that that there is there is some research that's probably worth talking about there that condensed work weeks where you're putting the same amount of hours in there's Ohio State professor has been studying this and said it's around the 48 hour mark. If you work 48 hours in a five-day weekend, compress that before. That's where you start seeing stress related health problems fatigue, burnout, that kind of thing. So 40 into four days is probably doable for most people. But you know, a lot of us work more than 40 hours in a week. And if you take that same man hours, cram it into four days, you might have problems.

Frank Butler  15:09
Well, and I think that's the thing, too, is that if you're working more than 48 hours, probably some things need to be reexamined to,

Paul Harvey  15:16
Maybe. You know, like, if

Frank Butler  15:18
There's certain jobs, obviously,

Paul Harvey  15:19
if you love what you do, and you use want to work 50-60 hours a week, and it's all productive stuff. And that's cool, you know, but that's what we're saying here is, if you take a hard look at the hours you're putting it in, you're probably gonna find that 10, 20, 30% of it is busy work.

Frank Butler  15:35
Right. And I think something that be very mindful of is that there's been a lot of studies that have shown that moving to a four day workweek has been positive, of course, again, its structure, you know, how do you structure people being on for days, which day they get off, it doesn't have to all be Friday or Monday, there's a lot of different ways of doing this. And Microsoft is one of these companies whose tested this, and they found that their productivity actually increased by about 55%, just by simply going to a four day work week. Again, there's a limitation, this is true of anything, the more hours that you're trying to compress into a shorter timeframe, the worst that's going to be, but the idea is that there's probably a large amount of waste of time anyway, especially the longer that you are working, because you've got to take breaks, you've got to let your mind reset a little bit. And you're not getting those if you're spending 60 hours working, unless you're really into something that you're just completely passionate and in love with. But even then you need to have some separation from that and be doing something different. And let your mind rest.

Paul Harvey  16:36
Yeah, that's a good point. If you're gonna condense all your work into a shorter time span, you have to be cognizant of the fact that there's risks involved with doing that. And like you said, One of those is you're sacrificing all your mental downtime, your creativity can take a hit and your energy levels can take a hit. There are things like that have to be considered, you know, it's not as simple as saying, now I work 40 hours a week, and life is better. Yeah, there's a lot of considerations about the type of job the type of person you're dealing with the type of work involved, the type of customers you have to interact with. There's a lot that goes into it. But something worth considering that this 40 hours, five days a week is completely arbitrary. We just do it, because that's how it's been done. At least for the last 7080 years. I think that's the starting point to realize that 40 hours a week and or five days a week is completely arbitrary. Like we just assume I got a new job five days a week, I'm gonna go do it. Like, why there's nothing that's that universal that work? Why do we all just accept that it's five days a week, 40 hours?

Frank Butler  17:34
There's got to be some approach to thinking about work life balance, let's get away from this arbitrary notion of a 40 Hour Workweek, which doesn't make any sense, right? It's something that, as you say, we it was born out of getting rid of a Saturday, many moons ago. But technology has taken us so far forward in what we can get done in such little time. You know, let's look at it differently. Let's just say, hey, you're not ready for just doing away with the 40 Hour Workweek and just say, Hey, we want to focus in on output. Let's take a baby step and go, let's try a four day workweek.

Paul Harvey  18:03
I had a friend, former business partner actually started working at Lockheed Martin in 1998. And they had just started, I believe, a kind of a pilot program of every other Friday off. So it was five day week 40, week, five, four or five, four throughout the year. And as far as I know, it was very successful. And I think 20 some odd years later, I think they still do it. I'm not sure. There's been some many companies, big established ones have been sticking their toes in this water for a long time. I think it's an idea that's time has come to at least consider it not to say everyone goes to a four day workweek. But to say everyone consider is that something that makes sense for you and your employees. It's very popular in parts of Europe, right now, Britain. But actually another baby step idea I've heard of called freebie Fridays, a lot of the tech companies have done this, that Fridays are one day a week or one day a month, you can work on whatever you want. I'm trying to think of like famous examples that have come out of that. But the idea is you just let people just do the fun part of work. And sometimes good things happen when you do that.

Frank Butler  19:09
Yeah, I believe Google and Apple both have and I think most of the Silicon Valley companies have something where it's like 10% of your day, or your time per week or whatever 10% your time, can be allocated to any project you want, right? And it could be a project that you want to experiment with. So in essence, the idea is that you could be your own little micro entrepreneur inside this overall big corporate structure so you can find a new path to do something. Give yourself a break to focus on something creative in a different direction,

Paul Harvey  19:39
intrinsically motivating.

Frank Butler  19:40
Yeah, yeah, I think there's some interesting stuff to that. I'm one of those people who believes you got to rip the band aid off a little bit more. I understand why. Managers especially senior executives, don't like to make these kinds of decisions because they're afraid that disruptions are going to be too great.

Paul Harvey  19:57
The status quo is a safer path. The status quo, you know, but you're worried about what And there will be complications for something like that. And it's easier to say, nah, I don't want to deal with that.

Frank Butler  20:07
The thing is that if you can make your employees more productive, why wouldn't you write, it's going to be better at retaining them, it's going to increase their productivity is going to increase the morale, it's going to give them more work life balance, there's a lot of positive benefits that

Paul Harvey  20:20
Well, that's the paradox here. Yeah. If you're looking at what a manager is really supposed to do as a manager, this is almost a no brainer to at least consider it and try it and see if it makes sense for you. Rather than say, No, that's too risky. But that's your job, you're supposed to be making your employees work lives more productive and effective and enjoyable. That's what you do as a manager. Do it.

Frank Butler  20:41
Yeah, you get rid of the obstacles, right? And oftentimes, your personal life and your work life are intertwined in such a way that it's an obstacle. Of course, I think there are certain jobs where you might need an on call type status. So there's gonna be some fluidity to that. So we're not saying that you can only do a four day week, and that can't change. If there's emergencies. Yeah, you're gonna have to make changes for that. And I think people understand that notion.

Paul Harvey  21:06
I think they understand it right now. But I would wonder, say this took off and became the new normal four day work week, all of a sudden, getting that phone call on whatever your off day is Friday, or something would be, I think, considered just as bizarre or unpleasant as getting that phone call now on a Saturday, whereas 100 years ago, Saturday wasn't as typically considered an off day, as it is today. So I think there was that term you guys have in strategy, the when something sort of when a new structure becomes very rigid? Like calcifies? I know what you mean. But you're right that, for this to work, I think there needs to be a level of flexibility that we don't really currently have with the idea of a five day workweek. And that would be a challenge, but not an insurmountable one.

Frank Butler  21:54
It's culture, right? It's about organizational culture, in a sense,

Paul Harvey  21:58
And focusing on outputs. Right? If we do this without focusing on your work four days a week, but we kind of package it with, we're focused on the output, we're gonna try set it up so that things can be done for instead of five days, then I think you get that cultural change that goes along with it. And you don't have the rigidity of No, I, this is my off day, I only work four days a week, as much as you might,

Frank Butler  22:21
That you said status quo, right? The status quo. We know it's easy, in a sense, and it's not necessarily easy, necessarily. It's easy, because we know what the outcomes are. The reality is that can be really challenging and hard and difficult. But we know, the status quo. Devil we know, one of the things that you've got to try to do is say, you know what, it's time for this change,

Paul Harvey  22:45
Literally

Frank Butler  22:46
Right

Paul Harvey  22:46
Literally, it's time. Pandemic, working from home, like, literally, this is the time this is the time, consider changes for when things eventually go hopefully go back to normal.

Frank Butler  22:55
And even then there's stuff that's going to stick around that's been good for people, why send them to the office for five days a week, when the reality is that maybe you do it one day a week, let them still work from home to save gas, save some money, that's like getting a pay raise almost in its own right. So it's something that we'll probably institutionalize anyway. And both of those really work best with a focus on outputs. To the extent that one almost negates the other one. If we keep this working from home thing around and make it successful by focusing on output, it's more than hours work days word, then the four or five days thing kind of becomes irrelevant. Yep, I agree. It's time to just take that step, just saying, we're gonna look at our structure, we're gonna get the management together, we're gonna think about who gets what days off, especially for some of our rank and file employees, that they're busting their butts, this is just a great way of starting to move that needle, where you're getting more productivity out of them, they're going to get more loyalty from them, it's going to benefit the organization as a whole.

Paul Harvey  24:00
And that's the thing that I like about this idea of considering a four day work week, is that it gets you into the right managerial mindset. So you're thinking about these things, and you're communicating with employees about these things. And you're opening the lines of communication that should have been open already. And you're breaking out of assumptions that you've never even thought to question in the past. And that in itself is really a winning exercise to go through. If it results in a four day workweek. Okay, if it doesn't, well, you still probably got some benefits out of it.

Frank Butler  24:32
I agree, man, that's spot on. Or you know what, here's another thing. give people more vacation time,

Paul Harvey  24:37
but not unlimited. Don't go Unlimited, because that doesn't work either. Isn't that annoying 

Frank Butler  24:41
Unstructured

Paul Harvey  24:42
It’s unstructured, that's right.

Frank Butler  24:43
You want structure, unlimited is unstructured. Which is why people don't use as much. Hey, Paul, there's another one. We just made the connection to structure.

Paul Harvey  24:51
That's right. But with...you know, I don't think vacation time...if you focus on outputs, vacation time becomes less and less relevant.

Frank Butler  24:58
You still want people to take blog. is a time to recharge to I think you want him to go away and actually be absolutely disconnected.

Paul Harvey  25:05
So you're basically releasing them from their outputs 

Frank Butler  25:07
Yes 

Paul Harvey  25:08
For a period of time, rather than saying you get this many days

Frank Butler  25:11
Right

Paul Harvey  25:11
Hmm. I Like it. Make it. 

Frank Butler  25:13
So obviously, this doesn't work with everything you think about those Amazon employees are getting their butts beat right now with all the shipping going on, and they're having to pack and warehouse stuff. That's a different type of job, unfortunately,

Paul Harvey  25:26
Well, the same questions can be asked, 

Frank Butler  25:28
Right 

Paul Harvey  25:28
The four day workweek doesn't apply to them. But there's probably other ways to get the same benefits.

Frank Butler  25:32
Right, exactly. I think there's other ways of reflecting on that, too. I know some people are just happy to have a job in this environment. And I understand that completely. I do also think that this is what executives get paid big dollars to think about. And we have tons of research out there that have shown the benefits of four day workweeks. And the drawbacks, there's, there are drawbacks. Now, obviously, there's always Yes. Right. And I think that's it, right. There's that whole notion of, it's not just one thing, I think that's one thing, too, people get too hung up on just one element of it. Oh, this is a 48. Okay, we're just going to have four days, it's a little bit more complex than that, right? Or here's your seven things that are going to make you a highly, what is it highly efficient person or whatever, they have a highly effective habits, whatever that is

Paul Harvey  26:18
Read my blog post, so I don't get on my soapbox right now [laughs]

Frank Butler  26:22
The listicles, it's referred to. It's more complex than that. It's the same thing that we run into with the current environment with the pandemic, right masks don't work well masks work in conjunction with distancing and hygiene, it's not just the one, you have to sort of bundle it together to make it work. No silver bullets, there's no silver bullet. And that's the thing that there's no get rich quick scheme. There's no silver bullets, except there's no comprehensive than that. And all we're trying to say is that, here's one piece that's going to help you on that path, right? It's not just saying we're going to do a four day workweek, we got to communicate through that process, we got to work on changing the culture a little bit toward that process, if it's possible in your organization. But then there's drawbacks to consider too, like with everything, there's a moderation point, if you as we see, I think around 48 hours, if you do that, and then four day work week. That's bad. That's negative output. And it makes sense because you got to think then you're not sleeping for four days, and then it's gonna screw up your schedule was three days off, I get these experts, it's far more involved. And so the key is that you can't just take a narrow perspective and just say, we're going to just pursue that 40 Hour Workweek. Or let me take this at face value and say, Okay, we're going to take this one thing, and expected to make all these drastic changes, there's a little bit more nuance, but that's, again, what managers need to be focusing on, because that's what is going to lead to better output. And you'll find over time, then you can start disengaging. And that's the same thing. We talked about this idea of structure, right, going with a theme for the year, thinking about the processes thinking about working, we create some structure for ourselves, but it's not just like, okay, I want to do everything. Right, let's start with what do we think is the low hanging fruit that's going to get us dipping our toes in the water? Before we take that first real step to same thing with emails, right, we talked about this in the email episode, find ways that might help you with structure around emails to make it so you don't seem like you're just answering emails. In the strategy literature, we call that staging. Because you can't do it all at once. Right? Your resources just won't allow it if you think about your both your personal resources, or your company's resources, that can be too taxing. So we have to stage our way and taking those steps. But it's about having that end goal and working towards those goals. They're good at 

Paul Harvey  28:41
Back up a minute and kind of say that again. So, starting with the big picture.

Frank Butler  28:46
So think about the big picture where you want to be Yep. Right, what you expect from having structure in a giant set, just creating a vision statement, right? What's that vision, it looks like if I, if I were better at doing whatever it is that you want to better I think for me thinking about structure, I think about a lot of different things I want to do more to be healthy. I want to do more to get some publications out in this podcast. So I've got to think about how that's going to work together. And what is that going to mean? Big Picture? What is that going to look like? Is that going to lead to better quality of output of things is going to make me a better teacher is going to make me a better spouse, whatever it is for you that kind of what do you envision that's going to do for your life, if you have structure and you can get more done, or be more productive at things. You know, for Paul, it might be putting insulation in his house, or you know, getting to spend more time with his daughter, whatever that might be.

Paul Harvey  29:35
You know, honestly for me, I don't have any...I've meddled with structure enough in the past to realize that it's its own reward for me. I don't have a specific set of things I'm hoping to get out of it. I just find that life just gets better with the right amount of structure. And that "right amount" is different for everybody.

Frank Butler  29:54
But I guarantee that when you're thinking about that your life gets better. Yeah. And that's where you build that vision from

Paul Harvey  29:59
Some it's purely psychological, I think, and we've talked about this before, just a sense of control anxiety, there's a lot of difference, potential benefits there and different things, you're going to matter more for different people. But I think everyone, there are people out there who probably need less structure in their life. But a lot of people like Frank and I, we've lived a lot of our life thinking that we don't want to be structured. And we found that, hey, wait a little bit structure, a moderate amount of structure is pretty cool,

Frank Butler  30:27
Right. And I feel more anxiety these days, if I don't have something carved out and go, Okay, I know, I'm going to get stuff done. By having this time carved out, like, I'm going to do this during this part of the day. And then I can also plan it out better to write. And one of the things is that I love tinkering on cars, and the things that I can't just be working on my desk, and then go Tinker on the car and work on my desk again, because my hands are gonna be destroyed, and you've changed mental modes and your greasy mess. Yep. And then I have to come back and then, you know, no, I've got to think about, there's a day, Saturday or Sunday, I want to carve out four hours do that, then afterwards, maybe do yard work instead? So that way, I don't have to shower in between and then kill more time. That doesn't make sense, right? There's just as these little things, but you think about Okay, well, what benefits are you trying to get helps create that quote, unquote, vision. But again, it's about those baby steps, what do we think is going to help us thinking about structure? And what tools are you going to need to use to help you with that, we refer to something called the Eisenhower box that Paul mentioned a while back. Again, that's something else that helps with structure and helps you prioritize things as is definitely very important form structure.

Paul Harvey  31:43
That's kind of my introduction to structure, I think was that Eisenhower box idea. For those who aren't familiar quickly. It's supposedly, the tactic that was used by President Eisenhower in the US back in the 50s. Where everything that came to him is something needs to be done, we categorize in one of four boxes, urgent stuff that has to be done right away. stuff that's important, but not urgent stuff that's urgent, but not important. Oddly enough, there are some things that fit there, and then stuff that's not urgent or important. And so you prioritize things that way. 

Frank Butler  32:14
And then they talked about with that you can either do two things with that not urgent or not important is you discard them altogether. And since they're not important or urgent, you just get rid of them altogether. Or you can put them there and say, Hey, if you have some free time, and you want to get to it, you have it there,

Paul Harvey  32:29
They can be an incentive too. Like I want to get to those things. Those are often, for me at least, the hobby things that

Frank Butler  32:35
I lose five pounds, I can eat a bag of mega stuff Oreos

Paul Harvey  32:38
Mega stuff Oreo time Or you know, tinker on your car, playing with yo-yos, because I've gotten into yo-yos during the pandemic, because that's how 2020 was, or anything -

Frank Butler  32:49
I'm not surprised by that [laughs]

Paul Harvey  32:50
You know, like those hobby things that you just like, man, that'd be really fun to get into blankety blank, or learning how to code a programming language or learning how to do woodwork or whatever, that just never quite get to having it in that box. You know, it keeps it there so that when you knock out all the stuff that has to be done, and you find yourself home, what should I do now, you don't just go plop in front of the TV and watch the comedy runs for three hours. You say, Oh, yeah, that's right, this is a good time as any to learn how to do a...new yo-yo trick or...whatever the hell you're into.

Frank Butler  33:21
If we get if we ever do a live broadcast for our listeners, we're gonna have Paul do a yo-yo trick for you all

Paul Harvey  33:27
The whole time, I'm just gonna be 

Frank Butler  33:28
He's gonna be in the background, just doing yo-yo tricks. Rock the cradle or whatever, 

Paul Harvey  33:32
I can do that one

Frank Butler  33:32
Walk the dog. 

Paul Harvey  33:33
I can do that 

Frank Butler  33:34
But no, I think the key of what we're trying to say here is this, there's a way of taking those baby steps to change because that's going to help you with the change, you can't just fully say I'm going to go create all the structure and I'm going to structure everything, it's probably not going to work very well fail. So the key is thinking about those baby steps. Now, again, we're talking about how I said I want to rip the band aid off. Well, the point of me saying I want to rip the band aid off is saying we're going to do a four day work week. Now what is it going to take to get there, it's not just saying it's a four day work week, let's plan it out. Let's go do it. But let's get it installed and do it the right way, which is going to include communicating, probably some training, some cultural changes. So it's not just this, like, okay, we're doing that's an important point, you know, there's going to be a little bit more to it. But again, this is why managers get paid more money is to do these kinds of things, to make their employees lives better.

Paul Harvey  34:27
That's an important distinction, too. There's a difference between seeking out different levels of structure in your own life and in other people's lives. So if you're talking about a big workplace structural change, like a four day work week, that's going to affect 10s hundreds, 1000s people, you're obviously gonna approach that differently, with a lot more planning and communication and strategizing than you would just in your own personal life. So it is glad you mentioned that because we don't want to conflate those two things.

Frank Butler  34:54
Right. And one other thing too. There was a study that was published, it was talked about in the BBC publication a few months ago, talking about the four day workweek. And there was a an institution I don't have in front of me. But basically what they did the math and said, most companies would still have no negative impacts on their profitability. If they were to implement some for four day work week,

Paul Harvey  35:20
I think that was a study done by a consulting firm that like, has something… Well, it's like anything else, it's a data point,

Frank Butler  35:27
Yeah it's a data point 

Paul Harvey  35:28
The important takeaway from that is that there...there are many companies that will not lose anything, and will probably gain by doing this, 

Frank Butler  35:34
If you think about not having to deal with turnover, for example, I was it to like $40,000, to replace a base level of employee that turns over something along those lines,

Paul Harvey  35:42
And you need less physical space, if you don't have people coming into work, just because they have to be there, even though they don't really need to.

Frank Butler  35:49
Yeah, save some money on rent, there's a cost structure say, just anyway, that there's a lot

Paul Harvey  35:54
You will lose something, you know, there, there will be,

Frank Butler  35:56
There's gonna be tradeoffs. And that's okay. It's okay. The idea is

Paul Harvey  36:00
Everything has tradeoffs. Not doing it has tradeoffs.

Frank Butler  36:03
And I think that's another thing, is thinking about, we know there's going to be tradeoffs. And we know that there's gonna have to be tweaks, don't be afraid to make tweaks. If you're noticing something's not working, let's tweak it doesn't mean you just scrap the whole thing, because it's hard to do, which a lot of companies do is they just scrap something because it's very hard. And it happens far too far too often. So with that, folks, tell us how you are implementing structure into your life or your jobs. If you're already a very structured person, reach out to us and let us know, send us an email input at Busyness. paradox.com. send us a Tweet at Busyness Paradox. However you want to reach out to us, you can go to our website, we'd love to hear from you. We think it's a great way of getting ideas because we know that one size does not fit all. So hearing different examples of that we need your unique stories. Yeah, so reach out to us how your company is doing it, how you are doing it personally. Love to hear. So. Anyway, folks, we hope you enjoy this episode of the business paradox. Until next time, 

Paul Harvey  37:02
Hope you have a happy 2021 

Frank Butler  37:04
Happy 2021

Paul Harvey  37:05
Year of structure

Frank Butler  37:07
The year of structure.

Paul Harvey  37:10
The Busyness Paradox is distributed by Paul Harvey and Frank Butler. Our theme music is adapted from its business time by Jemaine Clement and Bret McKenzie. Our production manager is Justin Wuntaek. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And we'd love to hear from you. Please any questions, comments or ideas for future episode topics to input at Busyness paradox.com or find us on Twitter. Also, be sure to visit our website, dizziness paradox. com to read our blog posts and for links to the articles and other resources mentioned in today's show. Finally, please take a moment to rate and follow or subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts Spotify, I Heart Radio, Google podcast for your preferred podcast provider

Transcribed by otter.ai