Wake that ass up in the morning.
The Breakfast Club Morning Everybody is DJ n V, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the guy. We are the Breakfast Club law Laosa filling in for Jess. We got a special guest in the building asaf Joe. He has represented on MJ Meek. The Washington Commander is Donald Trump, Foxy Brown, Neo Swiss Beats, and of course ASAP Rocky.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have Attorney Joe Tacopina. Did I say last day right?
It did perfect?
How are you feeling this morning?
Tired but really good, really good. Yeah. So it's uh, it was a five week war, but I've never been happier. I mean those two people. When I say those two people, Rocky Ree Rihanna just such great people. I've gotten to know them over three years, really well at babysat fore of the Hid's one throwing her super Bowl performance. Wow, they're just good people. They're really for real good people. You know, you just listened a bunch of people I've represented.
Rocky stands out. Really that's a terrific guy. Yeah.
Really, you know it's interesting now, people always when we see these cases, they always wonder how the client is doing right, like how is they sat? But I would think it's just more mentally and emotionally draining for you as an attorney.
You hit it man, I mean because look, obviously they have the stress of the unknown, right, what's going to happen when I'm on trial and whether it's Rocky or some unknown client I represent. The days goes from you know, nine in the morning in court till about four am. You just work through. And it's when you have a five week trial, you know, you're sleeping in an average of ten hours a week. Wow, But you have to. You have to. But it's fine because you go on adrenaline.
It's all adrenaline based because I can't go to sleep thinking I'm leaving something out or missing one thing. And then when I go to sleep, I sleep with one I open and a pad next to my bed. But it is it's you know, it's stressful. And then in this case, in particular, where we had a prosecutor, it was you know, off the rails. I mean it was like one day every day was you know, a war with him making you know, all sorts of problems and allegations, and we got heated and it became very personal, so
you know, it was it was. It was a lot for me, but of course, you know they suffer in a different way because you know, one day we Rihanna brought the babies to court and people thinking it was a ploy, like some sort of maneuver to get the joy to feel sympathy. Georgie's not feeling sympathy. They know he has a wife and kids. It was more because it was the last day of the trial and we were summing up with doing summations, and the judge sid
we're going to write into Jory deliberations after that. At least that was the plan. Didn't work out that way. She worked the court because that could have been the last time he'd seen his kids for a decade or more.
Wow that day, Wow, think about that.
That's why she brought them, and people that prosecutor made a big deal of it in histormation, which I thought was a fatal mistake quite frankly. But I do have to.
Ask, you know two things that you did that that we loved up here. One, you know, we've seen criminal attorneys a million one times, I've had Charlemagne had, but with you, it seemed like we were talking about it seems like you were fighting for your life too.
What gives you the passion?
Because it I mean looking at you, you were like it was like we all going to jail, you know, So what gave you the passion? Because, like I said, we see other criminal attorneys and for some you could tell when it's a check a check, and some we can tell like, no, you this is your life. So what gives you the passion when you have these cases?
I don't know any other way. Whether it's Rocky I mean a Rod when I was representing, that's what you said to the New York Times, he goes to treat you like family. But I don't. I honestly, it's not like I do it, you know for a tactic. It's just I don't know any other way. When someone entrusts you with their life and it's like their life. Okay, maybe not the death penalty, but you know, their liberty
for twenty years, ten years whatever. I can't. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I didn't like, get into that bunker with them and make it personal and treat them like family, because then it you know, I'm not mailing anything in that way. I have to That's why I don't sleep thuring trials, because I have to look and make sure I'm not missing something. I want to take get every tackle advantage I could get, and in every case we always wind up ropeid doping the opponent.
I mean, you know, we we blow stuff out on summation, they're just like, oh, you know, like they weren't ready for it. It happened in this case twelve times and they were knocked on their heels. You know, we did a five and a half hour summation I did from that jury, and they were on the edge of their seat for five and a half hours, which is you know, you know you're connecting with them when that's happening. So
it's just it becomes personal. Mean, look, you just said something v that was important because when I get to the end of those summations and you know, these have been put together over the course of my career. Johnny Cochran was a mentor to me when he after the OJ case, he came to New York. You know, we
opened up the firm here. He plucked me out out of obscurity and basically took me under his wing for three years, and Johnny and I worked together, you know, we crafted summations, stuff like that, and I still use some for material and I did it at the end of this case. But one thing I do is when I go to thank you know, let the dury know that an honor for me to represent this individual, and I thank the family. I turned around to look at Rocky and then I saw Rihanna. I looked at her.
She's crying. Wow, she's a strong woman. Rina. I saw her crying. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I turned around, and you know, I had a I couldn't speak for a second, and then my eyes welled up and the jury is looking at me, and then two of them started crying. When I see jewis crying when I'm speaking to them during my stummation, I feel pretty good. They weren't good. You know, you got it. So that's why it's it's that's a good question. It's it's you know, it's part of how I do it.
But it's not like a ploy, it's not a tactic. It's how I really feel.
And what gave you the confidence that when they offered you that deal, you said f that because the world was like four, you don't only have to do six months and three months in community service a.
Black man in America. First thing I said, I was like, man, I take the I.
Was I'm thinking, I'm thinking, La, they're gonna let him go in a day anyway, because the jails are overpopulated. So what gave you the confidence and be like, I mean obviously you guys won, but you weren't scanned, and be like, well, maybe we should just take this deal.
And whose idea was it to not take the deal?
Yeah, it was Rocky and I had a one minute conversation, literally one minute. Rock here's offer. I don't want to do it too. What do you think, welcome, let's go?
Oh, I mean not that?
Can I say that?
Here? Yeah?
So you didn't even think about it, like you we thought about for a second and then but here it required him to plead guilty of something I didn't do. Right, required him to say, I'm guilty of a you know, assault with a semi to mac weapon seven years suspended sentence, right, which means he's under the thumb for seven years five years probation. So if he crossed against the red they could take him back. Yeah, it's six months, which means three months. But it was a career ender for him.
Really, he'll lose deals and stuff.
Gucci was gone. I mean I've been dealing with Gucci for two years on its Gucci Puma, you know, all his shows. He couldn't travel out of the country with felting convictions. It was a life changer for him. And more importantly, he maintained his instance from the minute I met him three years ago. Maintained his instance. So it was it was a you know, it was really a quick decision. Yeah, people like this guy has onions and doing that kind of stuff, right, how do you do that?
But I also felt very confident I knew were gonna win that.
At what point do you get so I know that there's like discovery, so you get to see like what the other side has, so that helps you like craft your defense and stuff like that.
But at what point did.
You guys have everything? Like you knew everything upfront or where things added as things were going, We're.
Like, if you ever got nervous.
Like hmmm, they're trying to oh what about this? We forgot about this show about.
Picked the jury? You know, I mean they came with a ballistics report that had been done a year and a half ago, and they said, oh, we just found this now we we missed it. So I'm like, you're kidding me, right, and like that kind of those games happened throughout the trial, but you know whatever, I'm used to that kind of stuff and didn't face Look, I
knew we had a defense. My defense was to eviscerate this asaparately, this this absolute pathological liar, and I eviscerate him in a way that you know, I told this jewiss that you guys had a firm room seat the history because you just witnessed the worst witness in the history of American jurisprudence. Jesus. I mean, he imploded like and by the way, you know, I'm considered, you know, top cross examiner anyone could you know you could cross
examine him. I mean, really it was that the guy was was his home worst enemy.
Have you ever met a man that couldn't rat right? He couldn't even rat rat right. He cursed in a courtroom or a judge of jury. He cursed to the jury. He told the jury, Yeah, I lied because I didn't want to answer this guy's question.
He's annoying me.
He said, you're annoying.
Yeah, yeah, sorry, I don't mean to annoy you just want you thirty million dollars and you want to just leave. You don't want to answer questions like he shoot for thirty million dollars with knuckle scrapes. This guy's a clown and and he's a liar. He's a midliar. He's admitted perjurer. He lied at least to this story twenty times and was caught coming in perjury. I caught him in multiple At one point toward listenation, I said, oh, this is the next one's my favorite. This is a perjury mini
series because he lied. It was it was like this series of lives about whether he shot a gun before November sixth, twenty twenty one, the day of the incident. And he said no, no, never I go. You sure never? He goes, yeah, never, I go. What about a shooting rage? Hot about the shooting edge? You sure it goes? Absolutely not?
Ago video?
I really gave him a shot igo, Absolutely, he goes, You heard me like an a large It absolutely not? Okay? Think video him and shooting at nine milimeters shell cases? Pop?
Was that on his Instagram.
Yeah, pulled it from I got it from his phone. But I guess the prosecutors didn't want to go through his phone like we did. See when I get discovery, there is nothing I won't look at it.
Would they not go through their clients phone?
He took a video of himself from twenty twenty one, twenty twenty one. I'm sorry, and I guess when he turned over the phone, we got the phone also, as we're entitled to. We did it dump. I mean I brought to an agency that you know, I t company that doesn't dump. And I looked at every phone call, every message, and every picture and every video, and I saw these There was like whoo, I got the metadata.
October nineteen, twenty twenty one. Okay, right before the incident, he's shooting a nine millimeter with shellcasing, popping back over his shoulder. Because don't get our theory was he placed those shellcasings, and he lied about it, and then he lied about the shellcase. Then he lied about where it was. I said, well, where was that shooting range? He said, we know, New Jersey somewhere not in California though, just not in California. And the point of that was he
supposedly traveled back to New York. I started COBE nineteen. It came back right before the November sixth incident for complex not or something, and he was there, and apparently the point of the prosecutor was like, well, he couldn't fly back with shellcasings in his back. So even if he shot, you know, in a shooting range in cober A two weeks before the incident, he couldn't flown with shellcasings and the commercial plane. We found out that the
shooting range was in Los Angeles, two blocks from the courthouse. Wow. So I'm like, where was the shooting range and he's like, no, I don't know, and not in Los Angeles, non California.
I'm like, really, oh my goodness.
Over the weekend we compared the video to I went to have a shooting range of Los Angeles, saw the same thing. I was like, got him. And then we on Monday came back. He's like, oh, I checked my Instagram. Yeah it was in Los Angeles. I forgot. I go, oh, you checked your Instagram?
Huh.
Had nothing to do with the post that someone posted one minute before he called the district turns offs to say you know, because someone had outed him after I went there and showed that it was the same shooting range in Los Angeles. So he lied about shooting, He lied about shooting nine millimeter, he lied about where he shot the nine millimeter, and so it was just like this series of lies. And then he lied about how
he found it out. He pretended he went back to his phone just because he wanted to make sure he did say things incorrect, and he found that and he called the DA. It happed to be about one and a half minute after he was tagged on a post showing his video and the shooting engine. It was just anyway.
That's one example of about thirty where so I finally said to the jury at the end of this, if you can't trust this guy with a matter of importance in your own life or a life of a love on which you can never do and they only create with that, you can't trust them with the matter of importance in his life being a rocket. You just can't. And if you take them out of the equation, there's no proof that there was a shooting. There is none that could be or it could be not, And that's
not proof. You unreasonable doubt and that was it. It was a three hour.
Deliberation and the truth that he you said, you said that you thought that he planted the showcases, the true of the police searched the area, didn't find those show cases, and all of a sudden he.
Came with stupid story. So he's claiming Rocky shot too, pops them, and the Rockety did shoot too from a prop gun, the start pest and the whole story as to why he had that, But if he shot two shots from a real nine millimeter ten minutes, the seven cops came within ten minutes with search lights. Those flashlights, they have bodycam. Thank god, they searched the exact spot where the sincident happened. Seven cops twenty minutes, that's one
hundred and forty minutes of manpower, and they're looking. They find nothing, nothing, no evidence of a shooting, no broken there's a parking lot right next to it, no cars that were doing nothing. He claims it comes back now and forty five minutes later, goes to the exact same spot the cops were searching, bends down and finds the two shell cases.
I mean, so what happens now? Because I know you mentioned when you walked out the court, like you want them to pursue him for perjury charges.
I want them to. They should. I mean the District Attorney's office was and should be embarrassed by this guy. I mean, he absolutely played them like a fiddle. We had a tape which he first, by the way, a tape of him and one of a mutual friend of Rocky Unrellies. And he said that there was a there was a recording, and he's and when he heard the beginning of the recording he realized what that was. He was like, oh, that's fake. Get that away from It's fake.
It's not my voice. It's it's it's Ai. It's like, that's fake, it's Ai. So then I had to call the poor guy who made the recording in Wally. Wally say, yeah, that's from Paris. It was in Paris's so that's my voice, that's really's voice. He said this stuff. I know nothing about this case, but yes, I'm here authenticated tape. And on the tape, what really is saying is if he gives me thirty million, I'll disappear to an island and they'll never find me. The DA can never find me,
and they can't prosecute their case. You know. It's like, you know, and this is his example, not mine. It's like you know, when you when you smack your bitch and she files charged against you, if she doesn't show up, the case is way weaker than That's what. Yeah, so that's his that's like where his mind goes to. But his thought was I'm gonna disappear to an island. The day will never find me. So I stood behind the
two disc attorneys. I was like, so they'll never find him like this, and they're just saying they're like sleeking down in their chairs. I'm like, he tried to sell his criminal case for thirty million dollars. That's called extortion, Okay, so he should be prosecuted for extortion. He admitted perjury. He was caught other times committing perjury when he did admit it. I mean, this guy's a one man crime spree on the witness stand alone who.
Follow charges against him.
You to say, because you told me that, you guys have begin putting together transcripts and stuff like, yeah.
Put to the transcripts we're going to present. You know, we have this video fortunate instingcents on TV. So we also have video. We're going to bring this to the district Attorney's office. I'm sure they'll looking for a minute and a half and disregarded. You know, they went after Rocky like you know he was I don't know, Dillinger, Pablo Escobar. I mean, they got a guy who's who's not only admitted to crimes on the stand, they got caught red handed committing extortion, light about it and tried
to sell the case. Now that is to me a perversion of justice. And if you're the district attorney and you have somebody trying to sell your criminal case for thirty million dollars, I'd be mad as hell. I mean I used to be a prosecutor. I would go after him with everything I had. But you know, I don't predict that will.
But what about the prosecutor because in this case, right you look at at asap the prosecutor obviously, well yeah, that's that's actually what is monster's water. The prosecutor, I guess didn't do their homework right out a little bit. Right, So now I'm paying. I have to pay for my attorney. I have to pay for everything that they did for me, and they have no consequence at all.
You can't sue the district attorney. Nothing is just you just got to eat that.
Yeah, I mean you do. It's they have sort of this governmental community when they bring charges. As soon as have a good faith basis to bring them, you really can't. The good faith basis is. They have a video of Rocky holding one appears to be gone, and they have another video where, well, it's grainy, you do here in nest cret cam to Pops Pop Pop so, and he had a witness swearing despite the fact that he's he's
his tongue is a stranger to the truth. He did swear, and so that's enough to isolate them from from civil damages.
I don't understand the prop gun thing though. I was like, why would he be having a prop gun for safety?
Like that's just.
Yeah, it's it's actually what happened. But here's why, Rocky. This is twenty twenty one, right, so he was still you know, he had n't He was successful, but he wasn't like rolling in crazy though, So he was successful. He didn't use full time security twenty four to seven. He does now after this, he does since that day.
What happened was he did DMV video in July twenty one that actually came out the year later with Rihanna, and in that video there was tons of prop guns and that there were a lot of videos that you have those things right. And so he had just recently gotten slashed in the face in a bar. He was jumped. He has a slash scarface right now. He has that He had a stalker current at that time. In July of twenty twenty one, he had a stalker active. Stalker
actually broke to his house. He had home invasions. He was licensed to posess guns in the home, but not to carry his security detail. And his manager Lou Levin asap Blu, who was just a great guy in great witness, said you have to if you're not going to use this full time. You can't carry a gun, but you should least carry a prop We can make it look like a real gun, just to deter people in case someone's coming up to you rolling up and you can take it out. Rocky said, sure. Find So they took
this little block which was really small. He put it in your pocketbook. Was a rock prop gun. From the video, you can see it's in the video. They put an extended magazine on it, a little bell clip to make it look more intimidating. So that's what Rocky carried when he didn't have security, And we had two witnesses testify that, and you know, his inn circle knew that. So he used it because he couldn't carry a real gun. First of all, too, he didn't want to carry a real
gun because God forbid he has to use it. Then you got to really answer some stuff. But so that's why he carried it. You know, I know people like that sounds like BS prop gun proper. But what sounds like more BS is that he had a real gun fired off two nine millimeters shots. No shell case were found by the police, No damage was done anywhere in one of the shots in that grainy video, and ast Bills and this rally were an inch away from like you and I, charl they aren't even as close as
they were, and he shoots someone's dying, someone's dying. No one got hit. I mean, it's it was obvious that that was not a real gun. Otherwise you would have seen things that you would receive. As a matter of fact, the cops on the body camp said, doesn't affect there's any evidence of a shooting here. You know, it was inches away from where the computers are, there, where the screens are. There was a parking lot with cars. It
was a pay for parking lot. You know, you shoot a gun, a window is going to break, Something's gonna happen. There was nothing. They searched every car, So I think there's while I get While the prop gun thing is hard for some people to grasp, there's certainly way less evidence that it was real gun than a prop gun. And that's the bottom lie.
What about this civil suit that Wally file whenever I'm not I'm sorry, I rally filed when everything first started moving. It was it's a defamation suit against Rock.
No, it's assault Rocky, defamation shooting against you.
Yes, she had two of them. So do you guys, are you now want to submit to like file for dismissal.
Look, you know that case is running its course. I'm dealing with it on my own, with Rocky Rock as his sole case. I mean, that thing is on life support now. Obviously, I can't imagine this guy ever want to get back on a witness stand again. You know, he he can't withstand it. I mean, he was again a horrible witness. Even you know there are people inside that courtroom, you know who are there, who are part of this process, who said, how do they proceed with
this guy? And they did? You know, but we had a prosecutor who was hel bent on winning, not doing justice, help bent on winning. And when you have that, it's a dangerous thing because you know they have the weight of law enforcement behind them, and and you know, prosecute's job and I used to be one, it's not solely to just secure a conviction, just to make sure you're
doing right. And when a witness continually lies on a witness stand and purchase himself and you know that they are, you know sometimes okay, to take a step back and reevaluate.
In your opinion, is because he was he's a celebrity that that prosecutor probably thought this was his case.
This was the one that's gonnaut him on the map.
Look if this would look This prosecutor has quite a history. Let's put it that way. He was the Durst prosecutor. Okay, so he was then sideline a bench for some miscandas that apparently had committed. And we're going to the Drst case. I don't need to get into it now. Yep. It was just like coming back party, like this was his first big trial since Thirst after the Old Day put him to some administrative part right, so he took this over like this was his chance to come back, high
profile case on TV. He wanted to you know, this was his coming back party, and you know he got schooled. He got schooled and got put back in his little corner because he was and he was nasty. I gotta be honest with you. I don't like saying that I've again one hundred and twenty jury trials I've had, and I've gone ahead toward with opponents, with adversaries who have been hard charged like me. I could respect that. We don't have to like each other, but we could respect
each other and not make it personal. This guy was off the rails. But then I spoke to other lawyers. David Chesnoff who tried I was a great lawyer from Las Vegas who tried the Dirst case. He said he almost went the blows with him, which you know, we came close a few times too.
I got right in my face, Brooklyn came out that Brooklyn was out.
It doesn't ever go away. But when this guy got into my face, I looked him. I said, you're gonna get hurt. You're making a mistake. I need to back up man real quick. And and you.
Know, whatever did you did you have that coat before after the case?
I had this before freezing outside? Okay barely?
She asked about before and that's what?
Yeah? Yeah, in center barber.
Wow, how was that?
That was crazy too? That was really crazy. Mesro was the lead lawyer in that case when I was younger, but it was it was a nutty case. And that was you know, that was another sort of travesty of justice. I mean, whatever issues Michael had, that was not the right case to bring against him. He was inno, he was found not guilty, and uh, you know I worked with his manager Francasio, and then when resolved Frank's case, they asked me to stay and work with Michael, and
I did. In that case was yeah, I mean, it was sad because and he was ready under the you know, influence of doctor Murray at that point, and it was you know, you can see there was something missing.
But I want to know what you learn from these cases, right because to me, I always say, it's got to be extremely difficult to be in this game nowadays with social media, because don't they tell jurors, hey, you're not supposed to watch television, you're not supposed to turn But how do you how do you not be on YouTube? How do you not be on your phone? How do you not see all of these things?
You have to be on YouTube? I mean I opened my phone and there was the thing of our case, like you know, right there, Like on social media, comes at you. You don't have to go look for it comes at you. So I don't really know how that works anymore. You know, you have to trust that the jurors going to listen to the court's instructions, which are do not read about this case. If you see something,
don't look at it, go past it. But human beings are human beings, right, I mean, the more you tell them not, the more they're gonna be what's out there, I'm going to look at it. So I don't believe that they are completely insulated from all the press and stuff like that. I think at the end of the day, though, they do make those decisions on what they see it.
I deal with that my summation by saying, look, you know, people who come in out of the courtroom and sit for ten minutes of testimony or the most important day or the summations. They don't know this case. You're the only ones who've sat here for four weeks, for every minute of every of the testimony, and you're the only ones who know all the facts. So whatever anyone else is saying, I think it's irrelevant. What matters is what you think you are. The judges are the facts in
this case. You and you know I empower that jury and we did hear. What's crazy about this case though, is this this We're in downtown LA right in the court same floor as the OJ trial. We're the court across from it, right because this role of the high profile cases go there on the ninth floor the OJ trial. And again, very close friends with Johnny it was very He was my mentor. Bob Sappier was a dear friend of mine. They had eight black jewis Counttown Los Angeles, right, fine,
fair we in our juris lection rocket case. I didn't get to say hello to a black joer. Wow, It's not like we didn't pick one. We didn't even get to say hello. Out of one hundred and six jurors that were brought in for the panel. Four were African America four and the first one was like number seventy, so I couldn't get to them unless like the first thirty jurors decided they weren't showing up or something.
It was.
It was troubling to me, and Reverend Sharpton came out hard. He called me, he's like, Joe, am I reading this right? Oh yeah, Rev, you are. And you know, Reverend Sharpton came out put out a really harsh statement just to make sure that he got a fair trial. And so, look, I didn't and I'm not. I grew up in Brownsville, Brooklyn, Okay, I thought I was a light skinned black had grown up,
so I didn't even know the difference. And I'd never judge people by the cold, only by the content of the character, right, And so for me, it doesn't really matter if I see good people. If I wanted smart and good people here, and I believe I got them, obviously we got them so so, but I believe I had them. So it wasn't so much we didn't have a black person. We need a black person. But I did tell this jury at the end at some point during that summation, I said that you represent the conscious
of this community. You decide what's right and what's wrong, because you're going to send the message out. But you represent the entire community. And when I say the entire community, I mean the community. You're all from different parts of Los Angeles, right, And also you represent Compton and Englewood. I just said that to make sure, and and Rocky told me he was really moved by that because obviously that's a large African American population, Compton Englewood. And I
said that, just remind the jury you're representing his peers. Also, you're supposed to have a jury of peers. It was like, you know, none representing. But but we were good. We were good because I just got jurwis who I mean? I had a rocket scientist on this jury. You understand, I didn't even know that was a real thing. I thought, you say, I'm like, yo, you're no rocket scientist. I thought it was just a phrase. This woman was a
rocket scientist. She was a scientist who built rockets, space ships. Like I said, you're really a rocket scientist. I was like, I want you just like so we had a rocket scientist on the show. We had a smart jury.
We had a gun there was someone who worked in weapons.
Yeah, we had a woman who was a pistol and truck.
We thought that you weren't gonna want her on that case. A lot of people thought one thought that, Yeah, I.
Love when people people think they know more than the Twitter.
The Twitter, the twitter jury.
We were breaking it down and we were like, there's no way that he's gonna want her on that case. But it's telling if he does or he doesn't want And when you welcomed her, I was like, Oh, he's so smart.
I wanted her because the ballistics evidence actually worked in our favor in this case. One two that was a cruel defense.
Jurney, Oh, I know.
I also thought she would understand. And then she said one other thing during jury selection. You know I talked about right now. Rockey's intention was always testify, always, but we decided we had crippled their case so badly at the end that I didn't want to shift the focus of for Ralli's glorious train wreck to Rocky testimony, and we decided it wasn't worth him testify because he already had the witnesses. He was just going to corroborate or
reaffirm what witnesses already testify too. And then that prosecutor be yelling at him for four days. You know, that's which I put on a witness for ten minutes, said he cross examiner for three and a half hours, screaming at him, which didn't go for well, I don't think, but the jury. But putting that aside, I didn't want to get away from Rally's testimony. I didn't want there to be too much time between the end the summations and his testimony. So we we didn't call Rocky, but
we planned on it. But still, I asked the jurwors. I asked the Drewors. I said, do any of you have a problem if defend doesn't testify because you know the judge going to instruct you can't consider that. And that Durre, the pistol instructor, whose father was a criminal defensder, and he looked at me and said, I wouldn't testify as ours if I were a criminal defendant. There's no
way I would testify. And I just remember that, thinking, Okay, she gets it, she'd understand, she understands why that's important because most people say, now, why wouldn't he testify if I want to testify. It's not that simple.
It's just not that celebrity help or her, And it's kind of a little layered question. But like you know, I asked the celebrity helper hurt in cases like this because I know when you're a juror, they'll ask you questions about Rocky.
But did they ask the jurors about Rihanna?
A lot?
They did.
Okay, I get stolen, might get stolen.
Except Joe got people out here. Don't even.
You know. They were obsessed with I loved it. I mean, they were just so obsessed with Rihanna. I didn't make a part of this case. She wasn't part of the case. The duid knows who Rihanna is. They know who she is compared to you know, in Religious Rocky. They saw her there every day, So I didn't need to inject her into the case to make it like we were playing on her celebrity status. Quite finally, think jurors, we're gonna acquit him because oh here's Rihanna, So let's be
damn with the evidence. Let's just acquit him. But they were so obsessed with focusing on Rihanna. Oh, Rihanna. They don't you know, you have to treat everyone equally. It was because Rihanna's here. I was like, keep going, man, just keep going, keep reminding them that Rihanna's here, and talk about her. Because I did that, it would look like I was I was pandering. I don't think that mattered at all. I honestly don't. I mean, I think
they looked at the evidence. I mean, look, if if Relly turned out to be a great witness and I couldn't destroy him like I did, I don't think. I don't think the jury would care that Rihanna was.
Sitting there the first couple of days though, of the of it, she wasn't there. But then she came that Wednesday. I believe it was that Wednesday, right, Why did Why wasn't she there those first couple of days.
I was the kids were in New York with her because the la fires are still going okay, and they're very protective and she's a mother, hen you know, she's really protecting those boys, and you know, the air quality was really bad that first week of that trial, and my eyes were like we woke out of court. I was staying downtown l a from so I had a two block walk to my hotel, and it was it was pretty bad. I mean the the you felt something, you smelled something, so I think it was an air
quality issue. And she kept the boys away, and she doesn't go anywhere with those kids, so she wasn't gonna leave them in New York and come here. So but she you know, we knew this was gonna be a long trial, so she made it.
What her name in the next baby? Oh, sorry, the name of the next baby after except Joe, except Joe. So that means we're not gonna get a Rihanna album because they about to have to make a baby.
So it's all your song.
Sorry, sorry, But Rocky's album's coming out soon, and that thing is fire. I mean I heard some songs on that. I mean, I'm you know, he does something. He's a little different, like he's not you know, but this next album is gonna be different than anything I've ever heard anyway around. You're gonna you're gonna be If I'm not the best man, there's a problem. I was gonna.
I was gonna ask, you know, when you take a case, do you have to believe.
The person to believe in the person.
Okay, break that down.
So look, I don't prejudge anyone. I'm not the judge during executioner. Right, I've represented people who have probably done what they've been accused of doing, but doesn't mean they're bad people and don't deserve representation. You know, if we all had our worst ten minutes of our lives captured on video or something like that, I don't think we'd all be happy. Right. If I love a person or I think they're really good people and they just made a mistake, I could deal with that. I'm not going
to subborn perjury. I'm not going to make up a story, but I'll help them get through it, and that sometimes that means just mitigating the damage. Right. Sometimes, you know, with Meek's case, for example, right meet, you know, when the crime, he led guilty to it, but this judge in Philly was obsessed with him and was had him under probation for over ten years. No one ever ever he was a kid, he was a teenager when his crime is committee. Ten years later, he's still in the probation.
If he came to court White sox boom two more, yesprobation she wanted him under his thumb. She wanted him to make a record about her. It's like she was. It was an issue going on there. So it wasn't like we were saying Meek was innocent, innocent, but he served his his his you know, his sentence, and he was being abused by the system, and the district Courney came around and agreed with us, and eventually I got
that dismissed. We resolved the case, and you know that judge was was relocated to a civil park.
He was Did you did you know that make me a movement was going to be as big as it was when that because it got it grew so insanely.
That was crazy. No, because what I first first, honestly, you know, I didn't realize how big that was and
how I loved that guy was, especially in Philly. I mean, he's like Rocky in Philly, right, And so I culture Reverend hal who I'm very close with, and and the Reverend I said, can you come to Philly with me and to visit him in jail and maybe you make us stand here, this judge is really giving them once over, and you know, I did I need you to help on this one, and Reverend said to me, one thing, is he a good guy? Joe? Am I getting embarrassors? See you good guys? No, no, Reverend, you will not
get embarrassed here. It's worth it. He's a good guy. More important, he's getting he's getting run over by the system. And he has the wherewithal, He has a voice. You know. That means ninety people in that system in Philly don't have that voice, don't have the wherewithal. And again trampled on. And it's true. They reformed, you know, that whole probation system in Philadelphia because of Meek in our case put a spotlight on it, you know, So it was it was.
It was an important case for a lot of reasons.
How did you get your reputation?
Like how did you become the person that people like Donald Trump and Daniel Snyder and Michael Jackson?
How do you become that guy?
You know? Results at the end of the day, it's results, right, I mean you had.
To have a first big case that that put your name.
As a prosecutor homicide in Brooklyn, you know, and I did well there, but then I left and you know I was doing well. My first case was a police corruption case and called the Morgue Boys. Those guys were cops, were alleged to have been robbing drug dealers in East New York and then splitting them up in the and then Morgue Factory.
And that was why, just give me power, like the fifty go ahead.
So anyway, that was my first on the front page New York Times. So I'm like a month out of the DA's office. I have nationally important case, you know, very important case. And I got my guy off, I got acquittal, and from there I went on some talk shows to talk about it, and then I started with that no, that's later morg Boys. This was like, you know, Michael Dowd was the main witness the Model Commission. That was like that's what we're talking about, like ninety early nineties.
And then then you know, just sort of steamrolled from there a little bit. I started getting case at the case. I started representing a lot of cops first, and then rappers like Raquen came to me on a little thing. Foxy. Right, Foxy put out a great post yesterday or something like that, a picture of us. I looked like I was twelve
years old in that picture. But Foxy was awesome. My god, who's I had all these like old school gangster rappers, right, sticky fingers, form onyx, you know, and and stuff like that. And so I started getting to that world a little bit, just you know, and then working hard. And then you know, I had some good case. I had some good wins. People think I was gonna win these cases. And I started winning cases. And then Johnny came Cochrane, fresho off the heels of OJ right, so, and he looked me up.
Someone said something about me, and he looked me up. He said I heard a lot of good things about you. I got a call from him and I'm like, okay, yeah, Johnny cockran sure. I didn't believe I didn't know him, and he said, could you meet me at my office. I was like, okay, I'm gon shit you off. So again I thought this was like a candy camera prankers. I went there and it was him, and he just like, I love your style, I love what you do. I've
seen work, I've read your transcripts. You're gonna be a star, You're gonna be me. And I was like, really you think that? And I mean I was confident in myself. I you know, I had some good wins early on, and he just like just yes, let's let's let's hang together and let's do some things together. I'm like, okay. I was like, oh my god, you know, Johnny cochrane and and it helped, it was it was a great
thing for me. And I'm still young, Lauren. You know, He's then sent me some work and then just happens. You know, then once you win a big case and you know you're in the game, then all of a sudden just started just started that way. I got Foxy, you know, off of a few things. She had a little soul phone problem, kept slipping at of her hands, hitting people.
And do you have a fear any retaliation because they know they described they described you as the most hated a lawyer in New York City because you take on a lot of controversial cases.
That was I love that that they described it. It was one anonymous prosecutors asked, I kicked and I know the case. That was a quote to the New York Post, of course, the near Post and makes most hey, lor One person said that I'm sure a lot of people hate No, No, I don't give a crap. A lot of people hate me. I know, I could look myself in the mirror. I'm a hard charger. I don't look
to make friends when I go into a courtroom. I look to defend the person I'm standing that stuff, and if it means I ruffle a few feathers, so be it. I really don't care. But you know, it's that controversial cases. Anyone who's charged with bad things, you know, needs a criminal defense start. I don't know if that makes it controversial, but yes, they're talking about the rape cops rape Cops case.
Yeah, that was that was the King of Marino case.
Yeah, that was Marino, which I wanted no one to the could win because he was on a wire. She was wired and he acknowledged what they claim he did.
And how do you want something like that?
Well, I said, basically, he told her what she wanted to hear, calm her down. And I used science in that case. That case was a science case. That it was scientifically that was against this one with the rape and I believed it, by the way, just so you know, and and you know, we put on we put on scientific evidence and I had him testify and he describes his actions, the content that it wasn't all right. He did make misconflict like he you know, he was a
recovering alcoholic. She was blackout drunk and he was trying to help her, and so he went back and to the apartment multiple times at night. But the jury believed him. And that jury was also another I picked smart juries when I need people to understand intricate defenses. I had five. I believe who's on that jury that was which people like, you're crazy. They most people think defense attorneys want the dumbest stories you could find. I don't. I want people
to understand what the burdens are. The proof be unreasonable doubt. Thing is you know you don't. We don't walk around going hey, I don't know, did you prove that beyond reasonable doubt? To me? You don't do that in right life. But that's the highest standard of law allows. I mean, you know, in a civil case, mere preponderance, I could bankrupt you, take your money, take your house on a fit fifty one forty nine percent verdict. That's preponderance, right, ponnously.
That's criminal case. That doesn't mean anything. I could take your child away on clear and convincing evidence, right, that's the standard higher than ponderance. I could literally a parent could lose cost of a child on clear and convincing evidence. That is not enough to convince someone in this country. You have to go to the highest standard law permits, which is proofly on a reasonable doubt. And when I sort of make sure the Drew understands how high that is.
It's not he probably committed the crime. It's not I think he committed the crime. It's not it's very likely he committed the crime. It's not I'm almost certain he committed the crime. It's I have no reason to doubt he committed the crime. That's a real high standard. And I have to make sure that Juri understands that, and then I list the reasons to doubt, so you know it's I take on these cases that I believe in.
I've turned down a lot of cases, a lot of cases that could be lucrative or even very high profile. Harvey Weinstein was one. He'd try to hire me, and I wouldn't.
Why why I.
Told you that thing about having a bond with somebody feeling like, you know, people have been charged some horrific things. But I liked it. I could tell it was good inside of them more. I just had a good connection with them.
You didn't feel that with him.
They did not feel that with him.
Let me ask you a question, good because that's interesting with the with the you represented Donald Trump in the storm Daniel's case. Was that ever? Was there ever even a chance of you winning that? And the reason I asked that is because it was politicized, you know what I mean?
It was politicized. It was all over the media. Everybody knew it was a target on Trump, like they wanted to nail it.
No doubt, that was not a case that would have been broader for anyone. And I mean that whether whatever your opinions are of Trump, I'm talking about the defendant. That case would never have been brought if we're not him. It was a case of first impression. Would think about it. It was a settlement of a a personal matter, right alleged you know, affair, consensual, nothing looking, but you know, she was basically trying to get money from him to
keep it quiet. He paid her. Whether it happened didn't happen to irrelevant. He paid her some money. And of story, he didn't take a tax deduction on it, he didn't file it in his campaign thing. I mean, he paid personal money. Somehow they try and make that into a false filing in his own records. So because he put you know, payment, legal feest or whatever in his internal records, this attorney charge.
I'd never understood how that was a charge.
It's not, it's not. It wasn't and I don't think it would have held up in court. But you know, all the things that happened have happened. I actually didn't try that. I stepped out from representing man after that. I beat the rape charge for Gene Carroll. That's the one I was involved in the rape allegation, and we won that. He was then clipped with sexual conduct, sexual and the defamation of her. But and he look, here's the bottom line. He cannot win New York drury trial
and just can never do it. It's just never happening, you know. So that's that's that's a different thing. That was a different thing altogether. You know, is there like.
An ethics thing for your attorneys where like, because I'm just sitting here thinking, like you representing Trump, like people right now love everything about what you're doing because of a sat right, But I'm sure during you represented Trump, They probably thought you were like exactly something, and.
Then the others loved me like it's like you know, when I represented Lelo Broncado, right, the Sopranos actor, the guy they he and some other guy were breaking in to get some drugs from a house. They were both addicts, that crazy atats. They were going into a house of a friend who used to give them drugs and he was very dead, so they drugs were breaking cop. As the neighbors sees it, the other guy shoots him dead. Lelo is not a gun. He didn't know what the
guy's have gone. The other guy got life in prison and Leo went to trial the charge home murders try to murder, which is the same as murder. And we beat that, and we beat it because we had to present the case with Leo the fight, and you know, we proved that he did not know that this other
guy are meant to had a gun. Now, you know, I just told you I represent all these cops in different cases, major cases, in case all these cases that day that mean Pat Lynch was like, you know, in the whole we almost had a fistfight, like so you know, I'm a chamileon I guess I'm representing who I represent that particular moment. When I represent Trump, A lot of people hate me for that I represent. When I represent someone like uh, you know, Rocky or Meek, other people
hate me for that, right, And I don't care. I don't lose sleep. I have mirrors, as long as I could look at the mirror and I do the right thing, and I don't mess around like I you know, and again, as long as I'm comfortable, like with the with the with the Trump thing. I thought those cases I got involved in, I thought, absolutely, yes, I really did certain case I wouldn't get involved in.
When you take a step back, right, and I'm sure people have asked you a million in one time, and you look at, for example, this Diddy case, would you do a lot of things different than his attorney's actually doing because it seems like they're already losing and it just it doesn't make sense.
What would you do different?
Well, uh, I wouldn't go out in the press and make pronouncements that are later disproved quickly because you sent the loose credibility. I mean, there's this whole thing, like the stupid baby oil thing, right, who cares first of all, right, but that became like this, this this battle line, and they went out and said, oh, you know, he just brought him in bulk at that Costco right down the block from his house. And that's that's why he has it so big, No big deal. But baby, First of all,
it's a thousand bottles. Do buy a thousand bottle of right Roads in bold, but that was what he said, of course that. Then Costco then comes out with a statement, No, we've never sold baby lotion in our life.
Jesus, we don't.
Not one Costco ever sold baby loces. So boom, Now it looks like somebody's lying. Right, you don't need that.
Kind of stuff on the Cassie video too, And they.
Came out strong before the video dropped.
That was before you charged.
Yeah.
Now look, here's the thing with the Cassio video that's horrible, cringe worthy. Right, you don't do that. You don't put your hand on a woman. I don't care what the story is, just I wouldn't anyway, not how I grow right, But that's not that's not What does that have to do with these non consensual what they called freak off things? What did that video have to do with that though, right, and and I would say, well, and that's the one count of the trafficking. She's the one person in the
trafficking count. Like, what does that video have to do? Okay, maybe you should be charged with domestic violence in state court, but what does that have to do with a non consentual freak off where people are being alleged to have non consensual you know, sex because they're drugged up and they're being gang raped or whatever. I don't see why that video was so of course, that video has been played and showed and people think like, oh, he's guilty. But he's guilty like assault of a woman who was
his girlfriend. That doesn't make me guilty of everything else. Now, I don't know enough about the case. I was asked to take a look at the case. There's another case. I said, I would not be interested.
I just want to the same same reason. Connection is it's different a little bit.
I represent Rock Nation, a lot of people from Rock and very close with Jay and Desert Perez was most amazing, Like I love them, bomb up a boss love amazing. You know, Jay Brown, all those people are just like there really are special, special people and they you know, that's sort of family to me, and you know, I don't think they're they're sort of.
Last question on that, do you think you.
Should say that again? Please?
I don't think they see repet Diddy.
I just want to throw that out there, because you remember everybody was saying when Jay said they weren't friends, everybody was like they were in pictures together all the time.
Everyone was a picture of Peat Diddy at one time or another, they went to a party. But when things got real years and years ago, you know, do.
You think he should have got a bail? And do you think he didn't get a bail? Break that down because I said the same thing and people thought I was crazy?
No, no, what what I mean? He was willing. First of all, it was no mistake I thought they made saying, oh, he'll have a ankle bracelet and stay in his.
Mansion in Miami and monitor who comes in and the.
Case in New York. Staying at a resort in Miami with a pool is not exactly really something I would offer up to the court. What I would have said, Remember, like I dk asked the French guy who was charged here with the rape of a maiden hotel because named Dominic cal Straan Dominic Strauss Khan his bail. He got bail. And the reason he got bail was he said, I'll rent the place here in New York, i will stay inside, I'll have I'll pay for security, I'll have a brace on.
That's a concession. I think maybe if they had done that from the beginning, that may have been something that happened. Look, I don't you know, there's a presumption of innocence that we still have to not worth. You know, people have forgotten that in this country a lot. He is innocent right now. He did He's innocent, whatever you think of him or everything that you know, the evidence will be.
No one's seen a minute of testimony. Yet he's presumed innocent until and unless the prosecution proves that case beyond a reasonable doubt. They may do it one day, but not today. And and you know, to get to keep someone in jail for a year awaiting trial, they have to either be a flight risk or a danger of community or or or they've done something so horrific like a murder. Right where you know, bail is not necessarily common.
This is a case of having parties that got out of hand and there's allegations of you know, sexual misconduct.
Okay, I just don't see how you, as an attorney it can do. Like when when the court of public opinion has already convicted somebody, which it seems like they have with that's got to make your job so difficult.
How do you don't know?
Because every jura turns on the news, it's all over on social media.
And even with the.
Video you mentioned, I feel like even though he's not I mean, he's not convicted of anything in relation to that video, but the picture that it paints, I don't see how an attorney wins after that, because.
Well, you have to be smart. Look in the rape cops case for it. So I'll tell you an example of Rocky. Also in the rape cops case, these guys before trial were called rape cops, rape cops. We're picking a jury that called the rape cops case not a leed rape cops case, rape cops. I fronted with the jury said, you guys understand that they've been called rape cops for years before you heard a minute of testimony. They've been deemed rough committed crime. You guys should take
a fetch to that, because we as a society. Don't want to be judged by the president deemed guilty before we've had a chance to have a due process of hearing. We then saw failing as a society if we do that. Look, a great example of my day, example not so much Monern anymore, but still relatively recent, is that Richard Jewel guy. Remember that guy from the Atlanta Olympics. They used they made a movie great, one of the best movies ever,
called Jewel. But he was the heavy security guard, the bomber, they said, the Olympic bomber in the Atlanta Olympics. They said he was the guy with the fat guy who planted They said, planted a bomb and the Atlanta Olympics that went off, and they you know, they FBI was all over him. He was, you know, he was a sort of a sort of hapless guy. And the guy was a security guard and they say planted his bomb, and he was condemned and the world had convicted them.
As a matter of fact. You know, there was that Ted Kaczynski, the Montana bomb, the Union bomber. So they called this guy to make fun of the UNI blubber, and and it was basically they condemned him and they he there was a lawyer who touch his case and he didn't have any money, and some like you know lawyer who worked in social work services basically said well
let me see, I don't know I help you. But he's started looking at it by little things in that up and the FBI was playing some games and it turned out this guy was stone cold innocent and he was actually a hero. He was actually trying to move the bag that blew up and people from next to it, and they thought he was going to plant it, and
he was exonerated. He was totally one exonerated. But his life was over, Like how he had a year of being called a murderer, a bomber terrorist making fun of him, calling them the Uni blubber and the truth is never as loud as July, right, and then and then and then what happens He died of a heart attack like six months later, like he just was his heart was broken, his life was over, and it was really sad that
they had a great movie called Jewel. It's called Jewel And if you know, you want to see how our system could really screw up a life, watch that movie.
Do you feel do you feel like as a community. We don't do enough as far as Jeurry Judy is concerned. Like you talk about one hundred and seventy people and it was five. And I talked about this on the air a lot of times. It's effed up because we don't want to go to court, We don't want to spend that time. But then when we do something wrong or when we're on trial, we don't have our peers.
Yeah, you know, that's what some people told me. You know, they were like, I'm like, how could this be? I thought it was. I really thought it was a plant. Like I was like, they're setting this up. This is a setup. There's no way in downtown LA. You know, they moved. They were thinking about moving the OJ trial to Santa Monica to get it out of downtown LA because so there wouldn't be so many blacks, right, And the DA said, no, no, we don't want to give the
appearances that were doing that. So because it was on the heels of Rodney King, so they kept in downtown LA and we had, you know, eight black juris when they filed in. I was like, I'm like, I mean, I was the blackest guy in the room aside from Rocky like me. So I'm like, what is going on here? And it was just it was odd. But so someone said to me, well, you know, someone's just go out the jury. Somethings go out. We can't force people to
respond and show up, you know. So I'd say to the community, you gotta you gotta show up to represent because then then you know the day we need and we being this community, the day that that's needed to be represented. So you have a jury of your peers, you know, if you don't show up, you're you're failing each other. And I think that's important. That's a great point to JAF.
I have one more Diddy question and did another asap question. So for Diddy, would you have advised him if you were if you were his attorney when Cassie first reached out to just achieve my god, just paid the money.
Listen to That was the honestly, And I don't I hate they're talking to other attorneys because attorneys who do that and don't believe me. There were so many jealous people of me that I've heard people say, oh, he's not a good trial. Heer's not a goodness And all I do is win And then it was this last case on national TV so people could see me cross examine,
see my five hours summation were like holy cow. But you know, there are haters out there and people who just say negative things to make themselves feel better because they don't have good self worth, right, And anyone talks negatively about other people publicly anyway, it's just because they feel bad about themselves. I truly believe that. That being said, I don't like the bad mouth of the lawyers, but I'm just gonna talk facts here. That strategy that was
that was a legal trade wreck. What happened because this avoided avoided he had that case where with Cassie right, and it was all about a civil case. Civil there was no prosecutes involved, no FBI nothing. They wanted a settlement and you know, these lawyers said, you know, no, they'll close. No, but no, and they said, well, we're going to file a lawsuit if you don't give us a settlement, and like, you know, go ahead, then bad.
Bad move, you know, especially knowing the tape exists and all that.
Like that, I think they underestimated her, her voice, like what she was going to do, how people would consider.
How people can respond looking at this day and age. Now, this day and age to cancel culture. My god, people get accused of anything, gone, You're gone, Like that's it. You don't even get a chance to defend yourself. Just the accusation is enough to cripple somebody and this career. Right, so that happens. He went from being on top of the hill. You know, whispers always about him whatever, But he went from be on top of the hill to boom like the pariah. No one wanted to even and
they knew him. And look what happened. They filed that lawsuit and what do you get? You get red ink end of the world headlines, Right, did he rapist? But all this crazy stuff and what do they do? The worst? Once you let that happen, You now have to fight. You have to fight that suit. You have to. But instead the day after they filed it, they settled. And so what that was was in admission and then it
opened up the floodgates. You notice what happened right after that, right woo everyone whoever met him, me too, I want the money to like he did to me. And there was twenty thirty forty. Then the FBI was like, wait, well, what all these women, so some of them will go into law enforcement, someone will go into civil attorneys. But it was an avalanche that came around him. And the only reason that it happened is because they didn't sell that case civily. Because if that Caste case was settled
and went away, none would have heard anything nothing. There would no other people coming after the Diddy until that thing was filed. Right, So if you're going to settle, you settle before they filed the lawsuits. That's what you're settling for, to prevent that public damage, right, But you don't let them follow it. And then so the day later that's the worst of all worlds because then it's a mission and then bam.
And you can't give him the benefit of the doubt because you know he lied us about Cassidy. Then the video comes out to it Now it's just like everything else you hear, you like, I don't know what's.
True and was not true, And none of that would have happened if he settled, which is crazy. If you had to do it roll over again, you know, we'd give her one hundred million whatever, because what's his life worth?
Because now I want to ask you something to I only got a couple more questions. You worked under Michael Jackson case. Is it true that Johnny Cochrane told Michael Jackson once don't settle if you don't settle with anybody, because when you settle, you become a pigyment.
Yep.
Do you feel that way for all cases?
Not for all cases. I think each case is different, right, Look what Michael was different? If you Michael said the case somehow it was out there in the press, right, that was Michael was Michael. There's only one Michael Jackson, right, So I know Johnny did that to him, but he was right to say that to him. But not every case. But you know, sometimes the settlement is a good thing because it just not because you did it or because you want a mission. But just take Diddy as an example.
Sometimes the settlement will save more money than you could ever imagined later and more heartache.
But he actually did it.
I'm talking about people who because I've seen cases where people would settle just because they don't want the bad press and they don't want to end up spending a whole bunch of money and court for the next four or five years.
And I've represented some very very famous people without the case ever become public, that have settled because it's not worth it, just the allegation is not and they'll pay money even though they proclaim their innocence. But they're like, but yeah, but okay, so I met this person, so there is they can prove that they know me or met me. And now I have to then fight, like and and go after this. But yet all under the
cloud of suspicion. And again in this day and age, when you're when you're accused of something, it's like you know your son are guilty, and if you challenge the accusation, you're victimizing the victim even though they're not a victim. Yet, Like that drives me crazy. You can't even defend yourself. So if someone accused me of sexual misconduct and I said she's a liar or she's made these false claims before, oh how you're victimizing the victim all over again, and
did she become a victim that's the allegation. I'm telling you, I'm innocent. I'm gonna fight this, so I you know, but now if you defend yourself, you're you know, you're a pariah. So it's just it's yes. So people do settle all the time. It's called the nuisance, you know, just to make sure that they don't wind up from pigeon post DMZ and you know on the breakfast.
Love and I got three more questions. You have one question?
A question, right, Yeah, I have an a question.
I just saw just now that he was named the first ever creative director of Rayband.
Yeah, it's Rocky.
And I remember after the case happened, you talked about and you talked about it here like telling Gucci to hold off on the Gucci Guilty, which is an amazing cent and by the way, but telling him to hold off. And I just I think for me, when I heard you talk about that, and I'm seeing this now, I think about, even though he was proven innocent, were there people who walked away, Like in the midst of this.
No, everybody's saying I feel all the.
I mean, I was like on conference call of Comfort, Gucci, Puma, all these different brands who worked with Rocky who wanted to know what was going on, giving them up. They I would tell them, we're gonna win, We're gonna win, We're gonna win, but you gotta wait. Gucci Guilty was my biggest heart attack. The wolfings to be called the alone Gucci guilty, and they wanted to roll it out before Valentine's Dad. I'm like, that would have missed the middle of the trial. I'm gonna be summing up on
Valentine's Day. Can you do me a favor and just wait another week? They're like, what's Valentine's I'm like, I don't get They called Gucci not guilty. How about that? Put it a little not in there and then let it roll. But you can't call Gucci guilty. So what they did was recompromise. They put the ad out with Rocky in it holding the bottle cologne, and there was no Gucci guilty. It was just the Colonne and Rocky. But if you looked at the bottle to get real close,
it would say Gucci guilty on the bottle. But they didn't put those big letters. Now there's all the big letters and now I don't care, right, So that was nuts.
I got two more questions, did how good did it feel? Because that was what's the young lady's name that'd be doing this stuff? Megan was mean, Yeah, I saw you point at her and said you were wrong.
Oh yeah, if I think it came in talking about Rocky.
Following us high Rocky and then one day, I mean, you sent me some messages that were pretty against the prosecution, very for Rocket, and one day whoop.
I don't know what happened, but whoop. The defense is lying. He's gonna be found guilty. Who would believe him?
I'm like, I think it was the prop gun thing.
Nah, it was the prop gun thing. The proper gun thing was in the beginning, so it wasn't the proper First of all, if you're a journalist, be a journalist, you're not. If you're not, if you're gonna pretend to be a journalist and you're really not a journalists and do what you want, say what you want. No journalist says the defense is lying. They report the facts. It's for other people to determine. Right. So I guess she's not a journalist, but she's a blogger. Right.
She's an attorney though, correct? Wasn't she an attorney at one point? I don't think that she was an.
Attorney at one point? Wrong? I mean, listen, I don't have any personal feelings against her, but it was it was shocking to see her go from one to the other, and she's like, no one's gonna believe this defense. Well, guess what. And we had a three hour and look we had a four week trial. We had a vert in three hours. I knew that point we won. There's no doubt. It's not one hundred percent because you never
know what a durid could do. But for twelve people that can beyond a reasonable doubt on that evidence, it was gonna take a long time to get everyone around what we found out from I spoke to three drawers personally, Rolling Stone spoke to one, and someone else spoke to one. The one Dury that was on video was there basically our worst drawer or the one who was against us that she believed it was she believed, she believed. But when they went to the drew room, ten people voted
immediately within one minute to it quit. Wow, Okay, there's reasonable doubt. Look, can we say, can anyone say it's definitely a prop gun? Of course not. Can anyone say it's definitely a real gun? Of course not. So that's reasonable doubt and that's not guilty though. That's it. But you know, she then came out, she was walked to
the court and a three hour verdict. When you get a three hour vert it's the defense verdict ninety nine percent of the time, especially in a four week trial, right, because you can't come to the conclusion that he's guilt. You have to go really comb through the evidence. They asked for one exhibit in their notes, the defense video. That's it, the FNCH video. Five minutes later, we have a verdict. It didn't take a rocket science figure out where this was going. Right. So she's walking the court
like doing a selfie video. If anyone thinks this is not guilty, they're crazy. Of course that it's guilty. They didn't believe the prop cunning, and it's gonna be a guilty very clearly. A quick video like this is death for the defense. Okay, she's talking about but I guess we're gonna say and or it's not guilty. And I killed in and I just looked at her. I said, you were wrong, you know, so whatever.
By the way, I can't find any evidence that she was an interney. I tried to look it up. Yeah, I think it was.
She worked for Long Cry.
One of my favorite movies, Devil's Advocate, Keanu reeves you know al Pacino and you know in that movie, can resplayed the character named Kevin, and he's representing somebody.
But in the midst of representing him, he realized, oh shit, this mobuck's guilt.
Remember the child educated god hard while he was while a young girl was understanding testifying. Have you ever been in a situation like that, like in the mydst of it, you like, I mean I think this motherfucker actually did it?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it wasn't this case. Oh look, I've tried one hundred and twenty jury trials and so again a chunk of those was a prosecutor. But there's been times where you know, I believe that since then I saw some evidence halfway through it was like, but you know, at that point, you're you're you're just fighting them all. Yeah. All you can do at that point is if they don't want to take it please, you could just challenge the evidence, which is constitutionally what you
have to do. Right, someone could be guilty but also be entitled to a not guilty verdict, And that sounds weird to people, but the reason that's true is because if the proof isn't there, if the prosecution has then met their burden to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. The person's entitled to not guilty verd. The communities and towed tore not guilty verd. The system isn't tout thro're not guilty verdict it. You know, we're not a perfect system.
But what you definitely don't want is we start cutting corners for people we know are guilty, because that's rick or jewel. That's what starts happening. Oh they're guilty, so we're you know, constitutional safeguards, we can cheat a little bit here and there. That's when innocent people start getting clipped. And that, to me is the worst thing that could
ever happen. When I representing people who are purely innocent, that's the worst things for me because then I'm dealing with like a pressure that is just enormous, enormous, And you know, if you don't win that case, you feel as like burden for the rest of your life.
Does it bother you more with the more of the burden?
Does it?
Like if you know somebody's guilty and still represent them and when that isn't that a burden too?
Though?
No? No, because that means it's system worked that means it's system worked. It means the proof wasn't there. As almost I'm not a borning perjury, which I would never do as long as I'm not making you know, somebody say something that's not true. If someone's guilty and I think they're guilty, but they were found not guilty, that
means the proof wasn't there. The proof wasn't there, and we need that person be found not guilty because it keeps the system strong, keeps all of us safe, because if we start again lowering stands for the ones we know are guilty, that's when, really that's when innocent people start getting convicted, and that's bad. So I could live with that as long as the system was put to the test and I've done my job, then you know
it's it's it's is what it is. The worst thing is if you've represent someone who's truly, truly innocent, you know that truly innocent, and they're being either framed, set up, or just for whatever reason, there's an agenda, and you know that's that's the stuff that you lose sleepover because God forbid that convicted. I mean, just like, how do you deal with that? Do you have that with you for the rest of your life. So fortunately I've not had that happen. I've represent a lot of innocent, truly
innocent people. They've all been vindicated, thank god, because if I had that happen, that would be that would be, you know, something that would be very tough to go on with.
Absolutely do next, because do you take a break? Do you jump right back into a case?
I gotta. I'm gonna have to go to my off sets, so I'm afraid to see what I want to find on my desk. I mean, been there for five weeks.
Especially now, you don't like take a break like you gotta, you miss, No.
That's the left for trial or I mean, look, will I take any downtime? Maybe a few days here or there, But I got there's a judge dying to get me on trial in Westchester County waiting for this case to be over, So so I know that's gonna happen soon. Trial in Arizona coming up. So it's you know, whatever it is, what it is. Yeah, try and take care of myself, keep myself in good shape, work out a lot well, and that gives me a little extra energy, you know, go forward.
You need a documentary or something absolutely seriously with all the represented.
Hey, Joe, good to meet you. Pray Yeah, absolutely, sir.
Well, we we definitely gonna keep your number because if we see any cases that we don't understand, we might need all to break some things down.
For some time. I called you before I got you on the phone.
That's right, wells as Joe Joe tackle Pena. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning, wake that ass up in the morning for Breakfast Club.