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Back in the late eighties when I was first diving into this topic as a journalist, trying to find out is there any credence to these persistent stories about crash retrievals and reverse engineering and meta materials alien stuff. Of course, came across the name of Lenn Stringfield that was just
mentioned by my guest Rich Hoffman. He did the first really serious research into these connections between military secret programs of possibility that some of these materials had come out to my neck of the woods, Nevada, in the Nevada Desert. So yeah, I reached out to him, got to know him a little bit. Rich, give me your sense of how real the crash retrieval info is, even before we started hearing from Dave Grush, How seriously you took this?
Do you think it's legit, that it really is happening.
Well, there's been a lot of investigations that have taken place over the years. Of course, as you very well note. You know, we have the Roswell event with Berlitz, and we have also the done done Schmidt and Tom Carey, who did a lot of work in terms of investigating the Roswell thing, and we saw that you know that, you know, even the attempt to be able to get the records from Roswell were all completely gone. You know, that's pretty interesting in the context of you know, trying
to like learn something from it. And then we've had, you know, over the years, you've had everything from like the reports of the Yubatuba crash that took place and there was actually material that came out of that. You've had in nineteen what is it sixty six, you had the Kexbrook you know object that came down in Philadelphia that led into the retrieval of that and you know, there were witnesses to seeing the military moving an acorn
type object away from there. So you've had these cases over the years where there have been a very legitimate sounding, you know, cases where there's multiple witnesses to the event, the substantiated. You have a number of other kinds of like things like the as you know, uh you know asked is it called Aztec, New Mexico, where there was a crash that was mentioned that I don't think they
ever really panned out. You had Kingman, yeah, King Yeah, So you had Kingman, and you you heard all these reports about all these different crashes that have happened, and you know, some of them panned out where there was something to it, or at least you get more information about you know, again witnesses with anecdotal kinde of testimony, but you walk away with your hands where you nothing in it, you know, and you didn't have any proof
per se. And so well, you know, very much over my you know, nearly fifty nine years to almost like now sixty years of dealing with this topic, you hear stories, but you know, when you it might be a story that's compelling in a court of law, but when you go to the court of science, it doesn't pan out because there's no evidence, right, So you struggle with being able to get science if you would, you know, believing it or accepting the fact that that's that is the case.
And you can't go on the basis of just the anecdotal testimony because basically, you know, you have a situation where humans are fallible, you know, and their perceptions and their memory and various other kinds of things, and so you're always looking for, you know, evidence that you could you could use to give to a scientist, you know,
or data or something like that. Of course, we didn't have the technology back in those early days, you know, to be able to do that, or you didn't get the radar data of the object that was coming down, and so there was, you know, being brings up a big problem. And of course that's what you heard from even the NASA panel was data is a problem, and
you know, calibration of equipment is a problem. And if you don't have you know, additional sensors or something of that nature that are that are helping to substantiate that it's not a calibration error or something of that nature, then you're struck. You're you know, you're struck out with basically being able to have scientists really accepted.
You mentioned that you've had conversations with people about crash retrieval programs. I don't know if you consider them sources or or just informed observers. But have you ever had do you have direct communications with somebody who said I had my hands on it, somebody that you know is credible.
No, I have not had anybody that said I had you know that I've talked with that basically have said that they had their hands on it. They knew of programs much like David is getting. They knew of programs and places where things were going on, and so you know that, you know, of course that's you hear that, and you hear about the fact that there were like, you know, groups of people that were in the early in the early times were actually studying and getting together
to discuss that. In the military, they discuss the crush retrieval efforts, and so there was like a you know, a program in the backwoods that was dealing with that and looking at it and discussing it. And so you know, that's the kind of thing you would hear, but you never got a chance. I never got a chance to speak to anyone directly that was saying that. I got to hold the stuff themselves.
If you had to bet, do you think that it is real? And especially include the testimony of Dave Grush, now that we know that it's out there and have brought out lines about what he has said under oath, what do you think?
Well, I think you know, probably, I'm quite honest with you. I think that you know, we've we do have wreckage, we do have material, uh, and it's it's been largely put into the the you know, the industrial complex and call that including the contractor companies, and and that they've been playing heavily in it. I believe that there's that
whole thing that's really really going on. Now. You know, you're not going to go to places like Lockheed Martin gets and going to get them to admit it because these are probably in U SAP programs or you know, unacknowledged as staff programs, and that stuff is always going to be that way, regardless of what you think that grush could get accomplished here. You know, a staff is going to remain a saff no matter what you know.
And I don't see them spilling the beans on the fact that you know, let's say hypothetically, you know that Lockheed Martin and I keep mentioning that company, but anyway, Lockheed Martin has been you know, doing reverse engineering on such and such, and you're just not going to get that to come forward because it's still classified. Uh, And they're going to protect classify things and information to the
NS degree. And then you can pretty well see that in the context of just the records that were at mar Lago and some of these things were you know, nuclear nuclear kinds of like information that we don't want the our adversaries to get. And like you pointed out early on the show, there's a competition for that information. The Chinese would love to be able to get those wonderful documents and love to be able to get that
kind of information. That what, what do we learned from our retrievals you know that we've had in the past. So I think that we were kind of in a situation where we'll probably never know.
I don't know.
I hope that you're not right about that. I hope that Congress will pick up the ball and run with it. If Dave Grush has told them the buildings where this stuff is stored, why not go after it. I'm with you on this. I've you know, the National Security APPARATUSUS kind of painted itself into a corner on this, yeah, and doesn't really have a way out. There are legitimate national security issues with this material, this technology that whoever has it and gets it and masters it and duplicates
it wins. So there's no getting around that. There are you know, inherently that issue. You know, there are people that will probably go to prison if it comes out that they've lied to Congress or misappropriated money or you know, kept it away. And then just the value of that technology. If I were a company that had it, I wouldn't give it up, not willingly. You'd have to come and drag, give me kicking, screaming to give it up. It'd be incredibly valuable, even if you haven't figured it out yet.
I get a kick that if you. If you recall back, the NRO was not known for like a long long time, and uh you know, congressional leaders learned about it and had the idea that it was that it was there. I mean, it was basically an operation, and uh so you had an entire government organization that was kind of like hidden from you know, congressional people and kept so you know, restricted in terms of people knowing it that it was just you know, it was a surprise.
Well, you raise an interesting point. Secrets can be kept. You've been at this for a long time, You've worked with sensitive materials and sensitive programs. Secrets can be kept for a really long time.
Yeah, it can. And you know I had to sign the non disclosure agreement and it's you know, it's it's for my life. And I used to be thinking that it was like, you know, even for a contractor, was during the time that I was a contractor. But no, you you really signed the agreement saying it's for life, you know. And I know I know things about you know, the UAP phenomena in terms of like on supper net and things like that to be dangerous, you know, and
I don't want, you know. And so I'm like, you know, in that catch twenty two where it's hard for me to you know, I have to be quiet about it. I ke even mentioned it to the people that I work with and you know, at work even and because they're not even allowed to know. And then I've got, you know, the people in SCU that I can't talk
about it. So and you can imagine as the level of classification goes up where it's like, you know, even above top secret, and it gets into the sci world, when you get into even the NATO stuff with the cosmic you know, you know, you hear about the cosmic classification.
You have the White House level classications, you add all that stuff in, and then you have a whole different classification system with the Department of Energy, you know, And so there's so many of these levels of restrictions where people get you know, polygraphs and they can't talk about it or whatever that it just it's so it's difficult to be able to have a conversation sometimes with people that work there.
But you're just you're just a walking bag of secrets. I'm gonna have to come down there and spend some time with you.
Yeah, no kidding, I mean, you know, like I can, I can tell you that the Air Force is playing in in terms of like the reporting of the stuff, because I've seen the site. You know, they're they're they're reporting videos and various other things that they take, and so they are playing in. But I can't say much more than that, but I.
Can say that, well, that's pretty interesting because the Air Force has sort of been is partner in all of this, all the revelations of stuff coming out from the Navy Space Command talking about it, NASA, but nothing from the Air Force, which you would assume has the biggest collection of stuff, of info, of files of cases, right.
Yeah, and so you know, of course, you know, I know that they are playing but I mean, at the same time, you know, they don't they come up with public statements saying that they don't really want to get into it. You know that they're kind of like, you know, pushing it off, and they didn't want to dismiss it,
and there's probably good reasons for that. They were pretty embarrassed as a result of you know, Project Bluebook, I think, you know, and just that whole thing and trying to get out of it at that time took them a long time. At the same time, you have the situation where they want to be low key. I think that they want to not really they're hasard about that because
you think about it. You know, if you're your funding is tied into being able to defend the airspace around and then you can't really defend the airspace because objects are an excess moving an excess of like hypersonic speed and doing all kinds of things like hanging in the air and in one minute and then shooting off instantaneously. How do you defend the airspace?
And it's embarrassing to say that you can't do anything about it. Precisely, let me ask you this, as has SEU already of your scientists are affiliate and members done any analysis on so called meta materials, either on or off the record.
Kind of a thing.
Well, we've looked at materials in terms of meta materials. I think, you know, probably the only one that I'm aware of course is you know Gary Nolan, who has been involved in the meta materials type of thing and looking at you know, the the isotopic ratios for example,
the many of the materials that he's received. The big problem with materials is knowing the exact you know, providence of the material at the same time having the materials, you know, in terms of handling of the custody being recorded in terms of how it was passed, who had it, who touched it, where it was and then if you recall, the TTSA was also engaging with an organization in the Army to utilize labs that was it used to be called Tacom's Car Deck, which was a research and development
lab that was up in Warren, Michigan, and it's been since renamed because they actually, you know, the Army moved all those our decks or those those research and development things under a Capabilities Command and stuff like that that the few Army Futures Command that was basically positioning all of them to be able to help support acquisition into more advanced level of things quicker, getting better case abilities,
and putting them out much quicker for soldiers. So that but they were probably engaged in doing some of that work as well. But we would again it because it's in the military world, we probably wouldn't know about it. Because you could literally walk in some of these buildings and go from room to room in a building, and each one of those rooms is a lab and the people in that room don't even know what's happening in
the room next door to them. It's kept that classified and you know, sequestered if you would, so you could you could basically have this whole building, and we have it over here at Redstone for example, where one of those R decks was there, but everybody that was in it had no clue. They didn't talk about it, and they went on their side. And I've also been in
where MYTHIC is, which is Missile Space Intelligence Center. And if you think back to what you know NASIK is, it used to be called Foreign Technology Division at right Patterson Air Force Base, and then before that it was
called ATTIC, which was their Technical Intelligence Center. But it was it was looking at doing that R and D re engineering kind of work up there, but here Missile and Space Intelligence Center is looking at all the rockets that are collected around them, you know, from whatever, let's say,
all those scuds and things like that. They would bring it over here, and then these guys would tear it apart and look and bolt by bolt and try to figure out how it was operated and then use it for their own advantage.
Yeah, and there's a lot of speculation that those those folks, those same organizations took a part and analyze some really foreign material, not just foreign countries, but foreign planets kind of a thing. So you lived there around that, you heard those stories growing up, you dealt with lend Stringfield. You think that there's anything like that, those kinds of materials, exotic craft from way way out somewhere that are still there somewhere.
I believe that that's probably the case. I think, you know, again going on the basis of belief based upon you know, my years of talking with people at the base, my years of having some people confide in me that you know that this is what they had going on. Again, the problem comes up that they didn't, you know, hand me a document that said this or that. Right becomes like when he's you know, I'm listening to the story.
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