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And welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori with you. Paul Smith Back with Us. Served for seven years in the government's Stargate Remote Viewing Psychic Espionage program at Fort Mead, Maryland, Major US Army retired and is one of the only five Army personnel to be personally trained to coordinate remote viewing by doctor hal put Off and the late INGOs
Swan at SRI International. Besides being an operational remote viewer, he was the primary author of the Military CRV Training Manual served as a theory instructor for the new CRV Traine Personnel. A desert storm veteran, Paul retired from the Army in ninety six founded Remote Viewing Instructental Services, which offers full service remote viewing training. He continues to write
teach consultant lecture in the remote viewing field. A couple of his books include The Essential Guide Remote Viewing and Reading the Enemy's Mind And PAULA was great seeing you at contact in the desert.
That was fun, wasn't it?
It really was? You moved. I hear you're in Utah.
Now, yes, yep, it's a lot cooler up here than it was in Austin.
Did you remote view it before you moved.
No, I used to drive through here when I was on my way to college.
Well that's great.
How have you been, well, I'd say, fine. I'm right now sitting in a recliner with ice pack on my hip where I just had a hip replacement replacement.
Oh you did, what happened?
Well? The first hip replacement I had back in Austin almost eleven years ago. Now, it turned out was made of some bad materials. I ended up with a bunch of cobalts in my system. Oh yeah, so they had to replace it almost three weeks ago. And I'll tell you, I already feel way better than I was feeling even right there when I was in contact. You know, this was before the surgery, but I knew it was coming up, and I still managed to talk to my doctors and to let me come.
Truly remarkable what they can do now with human parts in artificial prestiges and stuff like that. I know a guy who owns a company that makes arms and limbs and legs, and he said, it's truly remarkable. It's digital now, where computers even control your movements.
You know that is a miracle. I mean, if you think fifty years ago what we couldn't do and how miserable life was then, but most people didn't realize how miserable it was in comparison to what it could be. And nice, it's nice that we've made progress.
Well, tell us how you got involved with roroaldioing.
Well. I was an Army intelligence officer and after a tour in Germany, I got stationed at Fort met Maryland to be a spy, so to speak. And at the time I'd never put the words remote and viewing together. I'd never heard of it. Most people hadn't, but I was lucky enough to move in. They assigned me quarters right next door to skip out Water, it turned out, was the training and operations officer for the Remote VIEWNI unit, and across the street from Tom McNair, who was at
that time being trained by Ingo Swan. I had no idea what they did, but I also had no idea. They were kind of keeping their eye on me because they were looking for new remote viewer candidates. And one day they came to my door and said, hey, we think you might be good to what we do. And I said, well what do you do? And they said, we can't tell you. And I said, I've got all the clernches you can get almost and you can't tell me Nope. I said, well, how do you know if
I'd be good at it or not? They said, we're going to give you some task, but we think you'll do all right. And you know, and apparently I passed because they took me over and sat me down and read me onto the remote viewing program and asked you if I wanted to volunteer, and I absolutely wanted to volunteer. It sounded like the most exciting thing I've heard in a long time.
Tell people what remote viewing is, Paul.
Remote Viewing is actually a skill that one can develop. It's based on an underlying ability everybody's got. Everybody can you know? People say, well, you have to have a gift to be psychic, and the truth is, yes, you do. But everybody has that gift. We're born with it, but we oftentimes don't know how to use it. Remote Viewing is a way of teaching you how to use it and then helping give structure and discipline to the process,
so you increase your accuracy and your reliability. So it's kind of like I like to I'd like to say it, it's like controlled or discipline clear lands.
And at what point did you meet Ingo Swan, the late Ingo Swan.
So I was brought into the unit on the first of August nineteen eighty three, and they kept telling me stories that you know, come January, you're going to go through your training and you're going to meet Ingo Swan and he's going to scare you to death. He kept talking about how strict he was and how he didn't brook any nonsense, and you better have all your ducks in a row and do exactly what he says or
things won't go comfortably for you. And so when it came time to meet him, I got off the plane in San franciscoing and drove down to Mental Park to SRI International and we went to lunch with Ingo Swan and he was wearing tweet jacket and harness boots and Levi's and he was very friendly and very engaging and very interesting and it wasn't at all like I had expected.
That came later truly remarkable. How did he get involved in remote viewing in the first place.
Ingo, Yeah, Ingo invented remote viewing.
He was the guy.
He was the guy. He is the father of remote viewing. Sometimes he preferred the term grandfather, but he was the father of remote viewing. He was the one that came up with the idea for the protocol, and he's the one that ultimately developed the most, the most grounded and prevalent method of remote viewing. And other people sometimes get
given credit for it. In fact, I was reading a document the other day that said that hal put Off an Ingo Swan who I mean, sorry, Hal put off In Russell Tark who truly deserved a lot of credit. But it said that they invented And of course that wasn't true at all, and neither one of them would have would have claimed to have invented it. They all knew that Ingoswan was the one that came up with the whole notion of remote hearing.
My late aunt, doctor Shoshika cor Regula new Ingo. Yeah, and they were very close.
Yes, well, she was an amazing woman.
Yeah she was.
I've got her book, Breakthrough the Creativity, But George, I have to ask your forgiveness. I haven't yet read it.
How long have you had it? It's about forty years old.
Yeah. I didn't get it back there. I've got it more recently. In fact, I got it on your recommendation a few years back.
When you were on the show. I think I remember.
Saying, yeah, you brought that book up, and I said, I've got to get it.
So in one of Ingo's books he makes mention of my aunt. He was really something else. He was one of you guys. Was he a fun guy to be around?
He could be very fun. Yeah, he could very very fun. It turned out he could be very strict too, and demanding and he didn't did not brook any nonsense. But there were times, you know, we went For example, he loved to go to what he called training films. So we'd worked pretty hard on the remote viewing process, and then in the afternoon he'd say, we need to go to a training film, and so we saw First Run the Terminator, Firestarter, go on Blanket on the name of
that one read Dawn. He enjoyed going and seeing a film right now, and then as a oh, Ghostbusters, I can't leave Ghostbusters outters huh oh, yeah, yeah, we went to that show in Midtown Manhattan, theater in Midtown Manhattan, and when we left the theater there was somebody selling Ghostbuster T shirts on the sidewalk, and so we all had to get one.
Now, I'm sure people practiced remote viewing before it was officially called that, right.
Well, certainly there were similar things that people did. People talked about Shawmans did some kind of remote viewing, and they talked about traveling. Clairvoyance is essentially being another name for remote viewing and so on. But in fact there are a few distinctions between the two. And people getting arguments all the time about this, you know, is it really anything different? And the way you can go originally proposed the protocol, So we have to talk about two
different things. One is method, which is what you do when you're doing remote viewing. The other's protocol, and that's the conditions under which you do remote viewing. So it's scientific. It's a very scientific based thing. And he had a number of different experimental paradigms that you followed recipes essentially to uh to how what you did to make it remote hearing, and those are distinctly different from any other psychic or esp based discipline.
Was he born with his gift?
Well, remember what I said, everybody's born with it, but yeah, he developed it himself. He didn't. He didn't get taught of that although. So he was born in tell you Ride, Colorado. He was a Westerner, and he was born in tell you Write, Colorado, and then he grew up in Utah, which is the state I live in now. He spent his teenagers, teenage and young adult years here and went to college in in Salt Lake at Westminster College. And
uh and uh. So he was a Westerner, but he was born in in uh intel your Ride, and he lived with his maternal grandmother and his parents, and he kept having these things, which he later learned were out of body experiences, and he'd report them, and his mom, who didn't want to believe in any of that stuff, kind of shutting down. But his grandmother had had similar experiences and she encouraged him. So he started off having
these out of boudy experiences. And later on, after he had gone to college and spent three years in the army in Korea and then moved to New York, where he wanted to establish himself as an artist. He had to have a day job, and so he was working as a admin assistant at the UN the United Nations.
While I was there, he got involved in some scientific research at the City College of New York and the American Society Cyclical Research, where academics were studying ESP type phenomena, and one of them he mentioned that he'd had out of Boudy experiences, and so that's how he got in on that. Carlsosis, who was running the aspr's program researching out of out experiences, recruited EGO for that, and that's how he got into the actual scientific research field involving parapsychology.
So he was psychically inclined from the get go, wasn't he He.
Was pretty much you know, how early did it start, I don't know, but certainly by the time he was, you know, maybe four or five, he was certainly having experiences.
Did the government develop its remote viewing program to augment what the Soviets were doing? Who came first?
Well? That sounds like a Lauren Hardy routine, doesn't it, he does, Well, that's an interesting story. So by most accounts of the United States, United States came first, but didn't know it had come first. And you say, what
what does that mean? Well, there was a story in one of the major news magazines about a psychic experiment involving the USS Nouveilus, which of course was the first nuclear submarine that the United States was undertook to establish communications with submarines when they were submerged under the ice cap or whatever. And it turned out that that story probably wasn't true. But the Russians the Soviets heard about it.
They believed it scared to be Jesus out of them, because if we could do that, then we had a major advantage over them, right, So they started experimenting with this stuff, and of course there were there were other h what we would call paranormal phenomena that they had pursued also, and they had a major program in this.
They were spending one hundred million dollars two hundred million dollars a whack on what we would call paranormal research, which is interesting because that puts into perspective one of the criticisms of the US program. You get a lot of the skeptics out there say, you guys wasted so much money on researching esp. Twenty twenty five million dollars. Well, the Russians are spending hundreds of millions of dollars, and if you think about it, one F thirty five costs
about I think they're down to about thirty five million. Now, one F thirty five fighter costs more than all the money that the US government put into ESPU research over more than a over a back quarter of a century work. It's just kind of mind boggling anyway. Yeah, so the Russians threw a whole lot of money into this, and the CIA, not realizing what had happened, suddenly discovered that they were doing a lot of research into these fields.
And of course the CIA didn't necessarily believe it at all. There were some folks there who found it interesting, but their job is to go out and research stuff and find out about stuff that could hurt United States security. And if the Russians are spending a lot of money on this kind of thing, they must have had a reason. And so the CIA was obligated to look into it. And so that's kind of how this thing got off the ground in the first place.
What kind of hits did your program develop and what kind of hits do you think the Russians got?
You know, I can't speak to the Russians as far as I know none of the data from any of their you know, in terms of any of their remote viewing attempts that has been released now as far as I know now, the real expert on that is a may and he's had a couple of exchange visits with them and has talked about some of the recent stuff
they've been doing. But I haven't heard him say anything about what they accomplished, and they may well be close lipped about that because they don't want us know all their secrets even now, especially now those things have turned around there obviously, But with us, we've had some had some really good successes. Now, I'm always quick to say it doesn't always work. You hear all the stories about how successful was. You don't hear the stories about circumstances
or situations or projects where it failed. It's it did, it did, But we did have some really noted successes.
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