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And welcome back. George Nory with you, Robert merchstill with us, Now we're joined with John Kozik's obsession with collecting and researching Ouiji began when he inherited his grandmother's board in the late nineteen nineties. Now he was surprised to discover that Ouigi was simply one specific brand of a talking board, and that they date much further back than the Ouigi of Parker Brothers fame. You remember that. Of course, through the years of dedication, John John is now one of
the most knowledgeable people on the subject. Back in twenty thirteen, he became a founding member of the Talking Board Historical Society in twenty nineteen. He opened the doors of the Salem Which Board Museum to the public. In May of two thousand and four, just a few months ago, he opened the second location Which Board Museum in Baltimore. John, welcome to the program.
Oh, thank you so much for having me this great looking.
Forward to this. So your grandmother got you started into this? Huh?
She did. She used the wija board alone and her fingers. She would fly on the plan chat it would, you know, go all across the board really fast. She would yell out letters and numbers quicker than anyone could write down what she was saying. So yeah, that's really how me started, was inheriting that board.
Now, well, we're talking with merch and he hasn't really had a bad experience with the Luigi boards, have you.
Well, to be honest with you, I actually don't use Wija boards. And I really hate for people to think that maybe it's because I'm nervous or afraid. That's really not it at all. But I just don't have the same connection to the board that my grandmother did. And you know, I've been a musician for over thirty five years as well, and I always make a joke that if Jimmy Hendrix was my father, I wouldn't want to play guitar. It's kind of how I feel about the
Wijia board. I mean, I believe they work, and they work definitely for everyone, But because you influenced the board, I'm very nervous that it won't work for me, that I will influence into not working with me.
How far back John do they go? How old are they?
Well, I mean they really come about just post civil war, and they're homemade at that point, So really it's those two devices that are crossing paths. It's an alphabet board that people had believed that they could communicate with spirits. They heard knocking responses back to them, and so they basically try asking yes and no questions, waiting for a knock or eventually pointing to the alphabet on a board
and wait for a knock. And then it crosses paths with the automatic writing plan CHAT, which has a pencil at the front and wheels in the back where someone would channel a spirit to themselves and write or draw on a piece of paper whatever came through. So really just post civil wars where these devices are coming together and they're homemade up until eighteen ninety, and that first mass produce board is what becomes the Wija brand that we all know today.
How did we get that name Ouiji?
Well, there was a seance one night in Baltimore. The manufacturers had first made a board called the witchboard, kind of a generic name for it. But at the seance, a woman named Helen Peters she had asked the board what it wanted to be called, and the board spelled back Leja. When she asked, well, what does that mean? The board spelled back good luck. So the board actually named itself and then we just became that first mass produced board.
Truly remarkable. And tell us about the Talking Boards Society.
Yeah, so Merch and I are both founding members of the TVHS. We're a group that registered nonprofit. We research, preserve, celebrate the history of these boards. And you know, through the research that Merch has done, we've uncovered, you know, Helen's story. Sadly, she was written out of history for over one hundred years and really only rediscovered about ten years ago. We were able to raise money and put
a headstone in for her. Her brother in law, Elijah, Elijah Bond, who patted Thelija board, he was actually buried in an unmarked grave in Baltimore. We're able to raise money to put a headstone.
In for him.
Who've done a few other projects as well. But yeah, we continue to keep doing things and really just spreading the word of WIJA.
Let's bring in Merch for a second here, Robert. How long have people been collecting boards? How many different kinds of boards are there?
Oh?
My gosh, Well, when I started in nineteen ninety two.
You know, I was the baby. There were a few gray.
Beards that are even still with us, So I mean maybe there were maybe there were five in nineteen ninety two. Today, I mean there are you know, over one hundred collectors. Some are very serious, some just like to put them on the walls. As far as how many boards, I you know, I have over a thousand, and I know there are as many that I don't have. So that's like, remember I was talking to you about this never ending story. Why I love it because I know I'll never have
all of them, you know. And that's kind of the beauty of this is that all the different collectors tend to focus in a different way. Some of them really get into the satanic panic stuff. They really like the eighties and that kind of artwork. Some people are really drawn to the forties, and they love when color really started getting into the boards. So if you can imagine a theme. The wonderful thing about WIJA is that it's like a chameleon. Every decade, every generation, it tends to
find itself in it. And John and I were just we just got to work on a brand new board that's coming out. John, why don't you tell them. I mean this was really thanks to you.
Oh yes, this is very exciting. Actually, there's a wija they're going to make a Salem edition of the Wija board, and so they're tying in a lot of the Salem, Massachusetts landmarks and actually putting it on a board all themed around that city. That'll be out actually, I think it's out in the warehouse now, so that'll be the one that most people will see this Halloween season.
Was this a big Was this a big seller for Parker Brothers when they came out with the game version?
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean they knew when they bought it, they could see that the previous company, the William full Company, they just couldn't fulfill their orders. They were hearing it from other people that months were going by and they weren't getting boards. And Parker Brothers, being a worldwide company in nineteen sixty six, knew that they could just leverage this and really believed, to their credit that they could put the Wiki board in every living
room again. And that's what they do in that first year, nineteen sixty six is when they buy it. So from sixty six to sixty seven, for the very first year. It is the first time it's ever happened. It's never happened since we just outsold Monopoly, the only game to ever do it in any year. So that if you can think about the numbers we're talking about, you know, we're talking about millions and millions of Wiji boards. So Parker Brothers, it was a huge hit for them.
John, You've got a witchboard museum that you just set up in Baltimore, And ironically, Baltimore's where that little boy was who was the center of the movie The Exorcist. He was a real true story. And if I recall, didn't he play with a Wigi board before he got possessed.
Well that's what some people believe, but I believe there's actually nothing to back that up as far as him using the board and that causing the possession. It's one of those things. I know. Merchant was actually able to meet William Peter Bladdie, who wrote the script, and we
have a copy of that script. Yeah, and so Merchant probably tell you his exact words, but Bladdy explained that really he had used the Ouija board more as a way to explain how the kid was able to get in a mischief without the mother knowing that, you know, talking to that captain, talking to Captain Howdi in the basement and so, and not really being part of the story, but just as a way to explain how things were able to progress.
Merch tell us a little bit more about Bladdy.
Yeah, I was, I was lucky enough to many years ago do exorcism live h with. I think it was Destination America at the time, but owned by Discovery. And what it was was they took a bunch of us from the paranormal field, me because of my experience with the Ouiji Board and its history, and they took us to Saint Louis and that is where the boy from Maryland Cottage City, Maryland. Actually that's where the exorcisms happened.
So the story happens in two places. It happens, you know, the possession begins in Maryland and it ends and Saint Louis. So we went back to the house where that happened.
He was he was in the now defunct Election Brothers Hospital exactly.
Yep, he was taken there in Georgetown, you know there, but when you know, he's moved to Saint Louis. That's where they really, you know, start these exorcisms that are like NonStop. Twenty four seven, and we were invited to the house and I got to use the Wigi board in the house, which was that was definitely an interesting experience. But in the kind of getting up for that, I got to talk to Laddie and you know, I asked him, as I've asked many people involved in the case, was
the wigi board really used? Have you ever seen any evidence of that? And the answer was no, he said, I used it as a tool to introduce how this little girl was being left alone by her mother, Like she was playing the wigi board by herself. She didn't have anyone else to play with, And so of course that may have been the intent, but that's not how it was received, you know, after the movie comes out, which you know is slightly related to the true story
that affects Wigi board. So, you know, with this argument of does art imitate life or does life imitate art?
Who knows?
But leading up to you know, nineteen seventy three, you're getting to a time when these things wiki boards were already starting to look different in movies. They were getting darker. They were you know, originally it was all jokes. I love Lucy the seance, everyone's laughing, they're date game. But as we're getting to the seventies, things are getting darker. People are using the Wigi board for darker purposes, and
the Wiji board is giving them darker messages. The Exorcist comes out, and as John can tell you, it's like the straw that breaks the camel's back.
John, when that movie came out, it must have been a boon for sales for the Ouiji board.
It was funny is sales go up about fifteen percent after that. But really, what I like about The Exorcist is the we just seen in the movie is so almost subliminal. It's such a short scene and they don't really ever reference it. It takes a while for people to kind of realize or not even realize that why they might be afraid of the Wigia board, or you know, the superstitions and rules that kind of come from the
movie that just we don't know of before. There's a superstition that you should never use the Wigia board alone. And I think that really starts with that movie. You know, that's how they explained how she'd become possessed. Was using it in the basement to speak to Captain Howdie. The rule that you always say goodbye on the wija board. You know, some might argue that that's where it starts
as well. So, you know, besides sales going up, of course, I think the long impact of it is, you know, some rules, some superstitions, and really people just not being aware as to why they might be afraid of the wigia board because they just they don't even remember that there's a wiga in the movie.
Now, tell us about the museums in Salem and Baltimore. What do you have there?
Well, Salem was the first one that was opened, and you know, Salem is an important city to the Wijia board. There that's where Parker Brothers was located. I'm about a stone's throw from where that warehouse with a factory was. And so not only that, that museum kind of tells as much history as I can possibly tell in one room.
Not only to cover the beginning and Helen and Elijah and the people behind it, we get into a lot of the pulp culture influence of it, and so a lot of movies and a lot of books and plays and music all about the Wijia board there, and that's where I'm at myself every day. So that museum is a little special because it's really my happy place in life where I go there and I'm just so excited to meet anyone who's interested in wanting to learn more about the Wigia board, and so I tell a lot
of stories. I'm there, answer questions and really help people through whatever part of the wija they might be most interested in. You know, some people might want to just talk about spiritualism and where the board started, and then some people, really I need lawyers who study trademark infringement. We can talk about those cases. We can talk about five hundred plus horror movies with the wigiboard in it. So Salem is really a special place for me to
be and spend my time talking about Wigia boards. And luckily, you know, I was able to expand the museum by going to Baltimore, and so Baltimore, of course where it all starts. A lot of the history there needs to be told there. I need people that came to Salem who were from Baltimore, who had no idea of just
how much history had been in their city. So to bring it to the city and be able to explain those stories to them, and luckily Merch being extraordinary collector and wonderful friend, he has curated a lot of really amazing artifacts in both museums that you know, people are very I'm very fortunate to be able to put on display, but I think that people are very lucky to be able to see. These are extremely rare items that you just couldn't see anywhere else. In Salem. We have, you know,
a printing plate that was used by Parker Brothers. We have a watch that William Fuld had been wearing at the time of his death. William Fold, synonymous to the Wigia Board, had made it for his family, made it for over seventy years, and he asked the you know the Bigia Boyd Toultonate should build a second Factor Baltimore, which he did. He ended up sadly falling from the roof of the building and dying from his injuries. But we have the watch who was wearing when he died.
We have the script to the extrecist. So there's a lot of amazing things that you know, a lot of people would not be able to see in any other way if it wasn't on public display.
Truly remarkable, do it either one of you know Karen Dolman.
We know Karen extremely well.
Yeah, we all know Karen. She LOVESIGI boards, oh yes.
And I love talking about her at the museum. Karen is with Merchant myself a member of the talking about historical society, and really for me, I talk about her every day because she's my go to person when I talk about when people want to know more about using the wija board, because of all of her experience using it, our YouTube videos. You know, she's really a great resource to anyone who's went a little nervous to use the wija board to feel more comfortable. So, yeah, Karen's great.
But you don't feel it as if using the Ouiji board can conjure up anything demonic.
I mean, I do think that you know, with the wrong intent, that you know, you can possibly have conversations that might not be pleasant. You know, it's like a cell phone. You don't always know who you're talking with, and if you dial numbers in the middle of night, you know, people might not be friendly or want to talk to you. But I don't think there's anything to be scared of to me personally, I think you just hang up the phone. You stop talking.
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