Episode 18: Join The Captain for the Anniversary!

archival research on their case. This formal investigation of the Hills UFO case led to her career as an author, investigator, and researcher. From nineteen nineteen one till twenty twenty three, she volunteered for the mutual UFO New Network in various positions such as the director of Field Investigator Training, and she was the founder director of Muffon's Experience her resource team.

In twenty twelve, Mouffon even recognized her contributions by presenting her with a very well deserved Researcher of the Year trophy. The Betty and Barney Hill UFO case is absolutely one of the most important groundbreaking cases we have and we all are very thankful to Kathleen for her careful documentation

and preservation of the facts of this case. Hi, Kathleen, thank you for coming on specifically on this day, which happens to be the sixty third anniversary of the incident, which of course took place on September nineteenth into the morning of September twentieth. And also we just lost James Earl Jones, who actually starred in the UFO Incident, which was the film version of the story made back in nineteen seventy five. How are you doing, Kathleen.

at a minute. Although we now hear of some cases throughout early history which may have been alien encounters, really in the modern era, this was the very first experiencer case to really hit pop culture, and it introduced people to the idea of what they at the time called an alien abduction. There are a few things I really just genuinely love about this case. This was really not at all in the zeitgeist of our culture back in

nineteen sixty one. All of these claims were pretty much unheard of at the time, and now over sixty years later, nearly all of their claims really are what we hear

repeated time and time again from alleged experiencers. These include seeing a pancake or disc shaped light in the sky, object hovering over a car, the experience of missing time, reports of being taken aboard a spaceship, being face to face with an alien being, humanoid figure with large eyes, medical procedures performed upon them, the fact that Betty was shown a starmap and under hypnosis they recounted their abduction experience in full detail. All of these things we've heard

from other experiencers since then. Are those still the temples of the experiencer cases that you've investigated today.

what we hear about today. I think that the ets have more compassion toward those who they have cared for over a very long period of time. And I use the word care for Maybe that's not the appropriate word, because oftentimes they're taking DNA, they're monitoring the health of the human body. They're doing that sort of thing. They might set up experiments for the humans to take part in. They're masters in genetics, that sort of thing. We know a lot more today, obviously than we did back in

nineteen sixty one. The Hill case was the first scientifically investigated alien abduction in the United States.

federal funding through the Office of Economic Opportunity. He had even received an award from the Archdiocese in Manchester, New Hampshire for setting up a literacy in the days when you had to pass a literacy test in order to vote. So they were very active doing good things for people in the community. They certainly did not want to be known as a couple who believed they had been abducted by non humans, right.

very reserved. He always thought about what he was going to say before he said it, even hypnosis, Yes, I believe that. Interesting is that that was his style. You don't change your style under hypnosis. I was able to start with their statements when Bonnie was planning the surprise trip for Betty to Niagara Falls and making the decision that they were going to move on and travel back

toward New Hampshire. And very very interesting that all of those statements I've lined up and to compare those with the statements they made separately to doctor Simon, who hypnotized them separately and reinstated amnesia at the end of each session. So I did that vis a v Betty's dream material, and it was ten days after their experience, and they lasted for five days. She had these dreams in the morning just as she was waking up. Dreams that you

dream at that point are hypnotic. They can contain information that is from your biological or your biographical history. If you're experiencing anxiety about any of this, which Betty obviously was, you will add fantasy material to just make yourself feel better. So you know, that is why the entities in her dreams were very human looking, you know, black hair, eyebrows, normal human eyes, wearing Cadet uniform and Cadet caps. That

sort of thing. That is not what Betty and Barney recalled under hypnosis.

is involved. Here. We have two witnesses who, as you just noted, have the same story, the same recollection under hypnosis of what happened to them other witnesses, including yourself, who are adjacent to this incident. There was a possible radiation on the car. There are spots on the back of the car, Betty's torn dress, Barney's shoes were badly scuffed. There's a broken binocular strap. There's the fact that both of their watches stopped working, and the fact that these

people's lives were changed forever after their experience. And now there's some new evidence that you have uncovered, including there's there's some radar evidence. Apparently it turns out that there I believe twelve to fourteen other people who witnessed a large light in the sky right where they were correct And then this material that you found on Betty's dressed and you had scientifically tested. Could you share with us all this new evidence that you've uncovered recently.

their bodies, and then their memories began to fade. I saw those spots in the trunk of the car within a day or two of the time the incident occurred. My family drove to Betty's and Barney's home. I saw Betty's watch that had stopped. I just recently realized that she set her watch when she arrived in the house. She had wound it at ten oh five pm the previous evening, and the watch had for some reason just stopped.

She did not note the time at which had stopped, but she said it to the time of the clock in her home, and I have her watch. It reads five sixteen, So it was sixteen am when she went into her house after she arrived home. So that clarifies that question about what time they arrived home and whether or not they were missing time. Yes, they were missing at least two hours. They had anticipated an arrival between two and three am. Betty's dress was torn in several places.

The back of the dress, the top of the zipper was torn. The thick zipper fabric was torn the stitching, and that corresponded when the examiner was attempting to remove her dress but did not know how to unzip a zipper, so he tore the dress and then she assisted him. The dress dropped to the floor, and the lower part of the dress that hit the floor grew this pink

powdery substance on it. Also, the hem was torn down on one side, the side where she tried to escape, and she kicked one of these entities and it tore the lining of the dress on that side as well. The dress was heavily saturated with that pink pottery substance around her sleeves too, where the entities had wrapped their long hands around her up her arms as they were escorting her. I happened to be at the University of New Hampshire with Ben Hansen. He was interviewing me. At

the University of New Hampshire. I set up the archival collection there. Betty left instructions for me to go through her archival collection and selectively choose the files that I thought belonged there, So that's what I did. We were examining the dress. We turned it inside out and I had had the back of the lining tested. I'd taken samples from the underarms from near the zipper very areas, but this time Ben was examining the front of the lining.

He was started to ask me about three spots that were on the lining of the dress that looked like blood, and they were in the area of Betty's navel. Hemined, yes, that's correct, and so he examined the outside of the dress. There was no stain on the exterior of the dress, only on the lining, and it appeared to have come from where it was next to her body. I am the individual who gives permission for scientists to do studies on that dress, and I am the only person who's

permitted to cut a sample. So I cut it for Ben, and then I took the sample home with me until we were able to find a laboratory. And I thought of the Mutual UFO network. I knew that they had a biological scientist, and so I contacted that scientist and asked her if we could get her to do a DNA analysis. I also had a disc with Betty's blood. I would send away a little section of it along with a sample, and so we did send it to

Muffon's laboratory. DNA testing was conducted, and what she discovered was that it was DNA from Betty's body. The blood sample was too old to determine whether it was blood.

It appeared to Ben to be blood, but the blood samples were simply too old, so the scientist could only say that it was fluid from Betty's body in the area of her navel, and so yes, that might indicate that Betty's memory of having a needle inserted into her navel it was correct, and we know that over the past how many sixty some odd years experiencers have reported

this time and time again. I had also sent three samples of the dress in different areas to doctor David Soriano from the University of Pittsburgh at Bradford and he is a tenured professor in the chemistry department thirty five years experience. He worked with another tenured professor who also had thirty five years experience, training a graduate student to use X ray fluorescence to detect heavier elements on that dress.

They detected three heavier elements. One of those elements had a prosaic explanation because it was used in the die in the period of the time in which the fabric of Betty's dress was dyed. The other or two were

extraordinarily rare and expensive. One of them was roodium, which is one of the rarest and most valuable precious minerals on Earth, with a higher melting point and lower density than platinum, and the other was tulorium, which is rare in the Earth's crust but more abundant in the universe. So I mean these could be the smoking gun. This was very exciting information to receive. They could think of no earthly explanation for how these metals were deposited on Betty's dress.

she was aboard the craft. It's very interesting. You are listening to Beyond Contact right here on the iHeartRadio Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network. We are back on Beyond Contact. It's Captain Ron talking to Kathleen Martin about the Benny and Barney Hill case. And Kathleen, let's talk about this interesting aspect of the case, the star map that Betty was shown. Not only is the map interesting,

the way she was shown the map is interesting. It was sort of a I don't know how to describe it, a holographic projection. That's interesting because again, this was nineteen sixty one and that sort of thing wasn't really thought of. They didn't have monitors and phones, and just the idea that this was sort of a digital thing, to me is another interesting part of it. Can you tell us how that map was presented to her and then what you found out about this map afterwards?

by five solid lines. There were solid lines connecting other stars. There were two solid lines going to our sun, and then there were dotted lines going to other stars. So twelve stars connected by lines, and sixteen stars in all on this map. Doctor Simon said to Betty, if you can remember this accurately and it doesn't trouble you too much, go home and sketch this star map from memory. And fortunately Betty had a photographic memory and she sketched it.

The only problem she had is that she was using pencil and paper and she saw it as a three dimensional map. And it was published in the first book ever written. It's also in Capture The Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience. Now, once that was published, Marjorie Fish who was a brilliant woman from Ohio who ended up working at the nuclear laboratory, the Oakridge Nuclear Laboratory. But

Marjorie had an interest. She was skeptical, but she thought that if this place actually existed somewhere in our galaxy, that maybe she would find a match. Now, there were no computers that she could use in that timeframe, or no Xerox machines for photocopy machines. She had to go to the university in hand copy all of the distance data on all of the stars in our local galactic neighborhood out fifty four light years, and she had to

know the characteristics of those stars. And then she would construct a three dimensional model using a frame silk thread and these beads of various sizes and colors. Imagine the math that she had to do to know where to place every one of those stars in its proper location. She had built fourteen It had taken several years, and

she didn't find a match. She only found a match after we had made scientific progress, we had developed technology where we could get a better reading on the distance data. She went back to the university astronomical catalog and copied down the new distance data and started rearranging those stars, and finally she had a map for Betty's map. So Coral Lorenzen, who was the director of APRO at the

time contacted Stanton Friedman to evaluate her. If he thought she was a credible scientifically oriented individual worthy of having her work vetted by astrophysicists, he could make that recommendation and find the scientist to vet Marjorie's work, and that's what he did, such as Alan Heinek, a statistician, and also the Ohio State University when they had computers vetted Marjorie's work and all said that her work was accurate.

And so the chance of this happening just by accident that Betty would draw this confus uration is astronomical at the moment, yes, and.

surveys by those experiences. I think you said about twelve percent of respondents say they are shown some kind of a map. Has anyone ever pulled together these different maps and compared them to Betties or even to each other. To me, we have an opportunity here to really add credibility if these things line up together, and I wonder if any of them like match up with the Dogon tribe or any other map.

The problem is they were dissimilar than the stars on Betty's map because all of the stars on Betty's map were sun like stars, although only five percent of the stars in our local galactic neighborhood are sunlike, and all the sun like stars in that volume of space were

on Betty's map. In fact, one of the astrophysicists stated that if we lived in the Zeta reticular star system and we had developed the technology to travel through space, to explore space, that is precisely the route that we would take because all of the stars are in a plane, so it's easier to go from star to star. It all makes sense. And so that was a tremendous finding. And I know there are people who have said that Marjorie Fish before she died, she conceded that her star

map was not accurate. That was a misquote. Stanton quite concerned about this when we received this information. He contacted Marjorie's niece and it was a family member who was speaking to the funeral director who somehow there was a misunderstanding. Marjorie's work still holds up today, and a new study was done I believe it was in two thousand and three, twenty two hundred and eighty nine different computer models. Wow, and still Marjorie Fish's identification. If Betty's map is still the.

This infuriates me, as for some reason, these incredible stories of these people's claims aren't amazing enough. We have to embellish them. To me, this hurts our community, That hurts our stories. Then these stories are not being accurately portrayed. This famously also happened with Travis Walton, as I'm sure you know with Fire in the Sky that movie. I

genuinely don't understand why this is necessary. What are your thoughts about what's happening in ufology, particularly with regards to the Benny and Barney Hill case, the way it has to be portrayed this way, why they can't do it accurately? I.

and Barney Hill case. Since you're so closely involved in.

happened several times, plus all of this physical evidence. My husband and I drove the entire route that Betty and Barney drove in the same time frame, on the same roads when possible, stopping in the same locations. They were like twenty years younger than my husband and I. When we did this.

this had not happened? And she said, although it was difficult for them, particularly in terms of the disinformation that was disseminated regarding the case, she would have done it again because she had met astronauts from another planet and she was very pleased to have done that, and also that she had met and had a relationship with people that she never would have encountered as a social worker in civil rights advocate, women's advocate, that sort of thing.

She met some top ranking scientists who are very interested in her case, military officers who were very interested and supportive.

So I had one extraordinarily compelling case from Canada, Winnipeg, and and this experiencer had initially reported his close encounter to moufon. We didn't have an investigator in that part of Canada at the time. So Muffon asked me to investigate the case. And he had this amateur astronomer had this close encounter and he said, I think I'm being taken and so we worked together. He had a lot of photographic equipment set up to attempt to capture evidence and he did. He sent me a great deal some

incredible patterned marks on his body. He finally contacted me and said, I'm very afraid that i have a fatal case of cancer and I'm going to have surgery. He sent me a photograph of his neck. He had lymphoma, very enlarged nodes on his neck, and I just said to him, I have worked with several people who have the ets for healing. If you can meditate, become very relaxed and attempt to communicate with them a few times a day, ask them for healing. And I said, I

meditate too. I will do the same thing, ask them to heal you well. Within a couple of weeks, he sent me a photograph of his neck. There was no longer those huge nodes on his neck. He sent me video. The video showed an orb that entered through the ceiling and slid down the wall. It was a beautiful orb sort of baby blue around the exterior, then white and shades of turquoise, and then sort of an acre colored center. And it morphed as it flew across the room and

then it hovered above his body. It put down, or it might have just been on the film from it diving down into his body. He then became unconscious and he woke up twelve hours later and he was healed. When he went in for the surgery, he did not know how to explain to the surgeon anything that had happened. He shared his story his experience with his physician, who believed him his primary care physician. He even had an implant removed by him, but he was healed.

It's ten o'clock at night and they're outside looking the experiencers calling in craft, and something shows up beside the moon and starts descending in their direction. They're asking questions, they're receiving responses. Suddenly they find themselves in a different location. They're not holding their equipment any longer. They're holding each other. They're feeling nauseated. They're weaving back and forth. Don't know what's happened. They don't realize time has passed. They find

their equipment under a bush. They pick up their camera. They go inside the experiences home. His wife meets them and says, where have you been? Said, well, we've just been outside in the backyard the whole time. And she said, no, you were not. I was looking for you. You weren't there. Well, they were missing about two hours. Well, the researchers drove home and they started later to look at any evidence they might have collected. Well, on that camera, it showed

two beams of light coming out. They were kind of indigo colored, and then you see entities starting to drop off those beams. They're not fully materialized, but they become more solid as they moved toward the ground. You see one seated on the ground. He is obviously wearing some kind of technology on his back, becomes enveloped in blue light and he rises into the air, crosses in front of that screen with a blue light in one hand, and he's moving back and forth. You can see that technology.

He's sitting on technology on his head, looking back and forth. I think he's looking for those humans that he wants to capture. There were other entities as well, non human entities wearing headgear. Just remarkable video evidence.