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And welcome back to Coast to Coast George nor with you. Nathaniel gillis with us. A religious demonologist and author. A couple of his works include a moment called Man the Skin that Crawls. After living in a haunted house, Nathaniel spent twenty years researching what had happened to him. Nathaniel has sought to redefine the nature of haunting phenomena, ghosts, and high strangeness, and he's often quoted for his concept of the demonic. The reason they are playing by different
rules is because they're playing a different game. Nathaniel gillis back on Coast to Coast. Nathaniel, welcome back.
Thank you for having me George. It's always a pleasure to be on with you, and I'm thankful to have this opportunity to talk about my work.
How is our favorite demonologist doing.
I don't know. I'll have to ask them now. I'm doing good. We're doing good, just you know, very deep in the research and trying to find in their connectivities between different phenomena. But like I said, George, it's always a pleasure to be on with you.
That's great. Now, what happened to you a long time ago in that haunted situation?
Well, it's very interesting. So I was eight and a half, and I say that because when you're eight that matters. But I was in between eight and nine years old when my parents went to an open house. They were looking to relocate, and so during the open house, my dad led me buy the hand into what would become my future room. And it was in that room that very night that I witnessed a full bodied apparition of a little girl. And I can remember three things about
that manifestation. Number one obviously the very present entity that was in the room. But more than that, there was a stench that I smelled. It was smelled like a decomposing body or something. I can't really tell you. I don't have the vocabulary yet. But the entity was malevolent and it evolved according to my awareness of it. But that was my very first encounter with the phenomenon.
Did it haunt you for a long time?
I would say between the ages of eight and about sixteen. I went through various stages of manifestation with it. Like I said, so, the first being that I encountered, or the first mask I encountered, was a very pale little girl. She had black, long hair. She was wearing a white linen dress that looked to it made during the time of the century or during the turn of the century rather.
But like I said before, once I moved in, it evolved into shadow figures, into a smoky apparition that would kind of ball up in the corner of the room. It was a learning curve for me, but it was instrumental in the development of my own self and my own passion to understand what's going on here.
Did it ever attempt to hurt you, not.
Physically, but I will tell you that the nightmares that it induced within me, we're deeply disturbing. I can tell you this much. As an eight year old kid. There's very there's very few references I have to you know, drugs or any kind of substance abuse. And yet during these nightmares, I kept seeing the same men on a picnic table. One was had a needle in his arm,
and I didn't even know what insulin was at that point. Wow, And so one had a needle in his arm, and then the other one would always make eye contact with me, and then it was essentially the one individual on the left would place something in his mouth and pull the trigger, and then I would wake up to that looping nightmare, and whatever was in that I would be present again. And it was almost fabricating fear and then feeding off of it.
What led you to become a demonologist that I'll.
Tell you what. I had this coping mechanism when I was growing up. I mean when I'm talking about I'm not just saying that this being was with me and you know, like I'm exaggerating. No, the entity went to bed with me, It woke up and went to school with me. And so there was this coping mechanism that I employed to where I asked myself, Okay, am I afraid of this entity simply because I don't know what it was right or what it is? And so I kind of worked my way around its presence by doing that.
But the older I became, the more I realized that I wasn't crazy. This stuff was actually occurring not just to me, but to other kids my age all across the world, and it inspired me to want to understand the phenomenon on a deeper level, not on a surface based level, but something to where I can actually say, Okay, I can put it in my hands, I can check and feel it, you know. And that's what inspired me to get into this. Now, I got to tell you,
I'm still trying to understand what a demon is. So even the term demonologist seems a little bit verbose for me.
Now, who trained you to become a demonologist? Where do you go?
Well, I wish there was a school for demonologists. For the last ten years I was doing hands on right, like going in and doing cleansings and houses. But since then, like about two or three years ago, I stopped doing cleansings and I started diving back into the to the academic research. But I was trained. This is very un
asking people. The people that follow my reasearch are like what I got my first taste of spiritual warfare in the Pentecostal movement, and their tradition was vastly different than what I learned to believe in later on. But they're the ones that trained me. And I could tell you this even as I was growing up, a lot of what I was experiencing because it did not fit the
blueprint of Phytoconstal demonology. It was it wasn't a great experience for me because if they didn't sit into their blueprint, it needed either I was lying or it didn't happen, or I was just you know, just making it larger than it was. But that's where I got my training, and it was all hands on. It was literally, you're right in front of someone, what do you do? What
do you say? What are you looking for? And so what I started doing though, is I realized that there are a lot of people that need help that will never darken the door of a church, and that's what inspired me to go out into the homes actively and do an investigations and a more secular venue.
What are demons in the thing?
There are two hypotheses out there right now. The first HYPOTHESI is actually both of them originated in the sixteenth century. One of them is that a demon is they a malevolent, disembodied ghost where the anentity in and of itself is formerly human. And one of the most ancient ideas about these things these beings were that some people can die and they evolve, others can die and they mutate. So
that's one hypothesis. The other one, which was embraced by the Catholic Church in the sixteenth century was essentially that all of these beings are horns and hooks. These are all fallen angels or the offspring of fallen angels. What I might my interest as of late though, and this is just because the evidence is leading me to this conclusion.
The evidence suggests that what we're looking at is a singular intelligence that is using demonology and various other masks to deceive us and to hide from us.
But they're not extra terrestrial.
Die and they evolve. Others can die, and they mutate. So that's one hypothesis. The other one, which was embraced by the Catholic Church and the sixteenth sey, was essentially that all of these beings are horns and hooks. These are all fallen angels or the offspring of fallen angels. What I might my interest as of late though, and this is just because the evidence is leading me to
this conclusion. The evidence suggests that what we're looking at as a singular intelligence that is using demonology and various other masks to deceive us and to hide from us.
But they're not extraterrestrial, are they right? Well, we would call aliens.
Right right, And you know that that's such a big argument, you know what I mean, because the entire field was would you believe, you know, are they demons orleians? I would suggest again that the case studies, which we'll we'll get into this morning, it will demonstrate a pathology that unites all of this phenomena underneath one umbrella. And I think that's one of the most disturbing aspects of this, is that there is intelligence that's willing to play the
role of the demon what night. But yeah, so if we're looking at this intelligence. Foremost they do like to obviously induce us in the dream states, to dislocate our consciousness out of our bodies. But more than anything else, but I've noticed is that they like to impregnate and they like to take the fetus. In all of this, again, it's surrounding what we would consider to be possession.
When an extorcist tries to rid a body of a spirit, is it the demon they're trying to get rid of?
Yes, yes they are. This is a very controversial passage of scripture that I'm going to employ here, but it comes out of the Book of Psalms, Chapter one, O nine and verse six. A lot of Bible scholars and even rabbis have an issue with us because it's one of the cursed texts, and it's indicative of something that pretty much but you're gonna put out there. It rocks people's worlds because it doesn't fit in their blueprint of
a demonic. It's almost one of ninety six. David is talking to God about a man that's been falsely accusing him, and so he asks God. He says, place over that man a possessing, evil, disincarnate man. In other words, put in him a ghost. And then he says something that's equally as disturbing, and it says, next to that ghost,
place a satan, an adiversary, an accuser. And so there was an age old argument throughout millennia and especially within a demonological world that what a lot of these priests are doing and even just researchers are doing when they're trying to release that entity from that demoniac, what they're not realizing is is that fallen angel is attached to an unclean spirit, and by getting rid of the fallen angel, it does not mean we got rid of the unclean spirit.
So there are various hypotheses of what's going on. But essentially the exorcistic riote is designed to get rid of the entity and any kind of residue the entity has authored in that individual.
Are these demons attached to the afterlife?
Their pathology is their belief systems in many cases are their language preferences are especially within Ndibuksnamon. We have cases well into the nineteenth century where whatever is possessing these people, it doesn't fall underneath the linguistic umbrella of Catholicism. I mean, if we're looking at some of these entities especially this is interesting one case in nineteen ninety nine where an entity possessed a woman, but the entity itself he was not Jewish, and yet it was in a Jewish area
of the world, right, it was a levant. And so what happened was the woman who was Jewish, she was Rabbinic, and yet the spirit inside of her did not fall underneath the religious tradition of Judaism. And so what they would have to do is go to a local village next to them and find someone in Islamia to come and cast this into the out. So what we're witnessing is not just their belief systems that they're carrying on in the afterlife, but their language preferences, which I think is fascinating.
What are they though? What are they?
That's the age old question, my friend. Whatever they are, I'm leaning towards a very unique hypothesis that these are in fact mutated ghosts and that there is something to do with being re embodied that defines their entire existence. But you know, even getting back to the didic, which is what we're talking about tonight, you know, there are two definitions.
Yeah, that's the Jewish phrase, isn't it correct?
Yes, sir, absolutely, And there are two definitions to this that I think will catch a lot of people's attention. Okay, Number one, the word dipik simply means to attach or to a hear or to cling or possess correct correct, And so what's really interesting though, is it's almost like it's a dual meaning. So the first meaning is to possess,
the cling to to attach. The second meaning, and this is the one that really really capture my attention, The second meaning is the impregnation of the dead in the bodies of a living. And you'll see that in the pathology that will reference tonight or this morning.
Interesting to take on all of that what makes them so evil, Nathaniel.
I don't know a lot of these beings. A matter of fact, there is a case study in the seventh or in the seventeenth century where one of these entities was quite literally stalking its own crime scenes. It had manifested to a man that was picking apples in an orchard, and next thing, you know, the cynity possessed this man.
And when this man went to the exorcist, they were interrogating the entity and said, you know, why would you They were looking for pathology in piktomology, which is what we're all looking for, but they asked the entity, they said, why would you pick this individual and not the others? And the entity, in no uncertain terms, claimed that he had committed a crime in life directly underneath that apple
tree in that specific orchard. And so what the exorcist realized is that this entity was essentially by all measures, a serial killer in a sense, and that it was demonstrating exactly what are serial killers that are lying right now are demonstrating, which is they do stalk their crime scenes, which is alarming to me.
But they're not fallen angels, they're not ets, they're their own grouping.
Yes, absolutely, Now there are pathologies of victimologies that interconnect with UFO abduction of phenomen in such a degree that it's glaringly obvious, at least to me it is, and to some of my other colleagues, that there is, again, there's a singular intelligence here that is masking itself throughout
history as demonaic. I would like to suggest, and I'm just obviously it's just me, so take it with the grain as salt, but I would like to suggest that there is an intelligence that's wearing both the ET and the DBIC and the demonic mask to height its true identity from us.
So, even though we believe there are extraterrestrials, you're saying that these demons basically try to mix and confuse us and pretend that they're also ets.
Yes. Yes, I would suggest that if you were to look at an ET, put him in the corner, and then look at a demon, put him in the other corner, turn the lights off, I would guarantee you there's a third intelligence there in the middle that we have not
yet considered. I'm just saying that, based off of the case studies, what we've learned though in the field is that it's high time that we stop compartmentalizing the phenomenon to where you have d boot victims and then you have experiences, or you have incuby victims, then you have experiences. If we're looking at the same intelligence, which it does appear to be that, then we're also looking at case studies that we are now intellectually freed to include into
our research. But whatever we're dealing with, it's the same bloody footprints in the snow. These are the same rituals, and it's seemingly that's the same intelligence.
When one dies, Nathaniel, will they face these demons or is that a different plane of existence?
I don't know. I could tell you this a couple of years back.
Now.
I got really deep in my research, and from time to time, if it gets too dark, George, I'll just shut it all, you know what I mean. I suffer from it a lot of times. But I was really deep into the abduction phenomenon when I got two random emails from two different accounts within two hours of each other, and both of them were from experiencers or whatever we want to call them. Both of them told me that their guide said that they'll be waiting for me when I die.
That's Fuzzy's nice.
Yeah, I hope not, my friend, I hope. No.
You don't want that happening, that's for sure.
No, not at all, not at all.
What has been, in your experience one of the worst cases of possession you've come across.
It was a murder, and it was one of my own cases. And I'll be very graceful with us, but yeah, there was a case that I worked on myself where I walked into the house and I was originally supposed to just pray with the family, and I had no frame of reference for what actually occurred. But when I went to the house, I could see that there was carpet that was cut up and that I was specifically there to kick an entity out. And that was that that act of possession, because it was a miner that
committed the murder. That was rough because the girls she had came into the house with a disembodied voice coming out of her mouth, and one of the experience, one of the victims I was working with in the family said that it was it was a female, but it was a male voice, and that without moving her mouth, it was it was coming out of her mouth and
talking to them. That was pretty alarming because a lot of times, again in these possessions, it's a direct confrontation with evil or or what we would consider it evil, but it's not to the point where you know by the time you get there, the entity has taken control of an individual and accomplished what it wants.
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