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In terms of technology SETS, what's happening with the Paul Allen array.
Well, the Paul Allen ray is still being used. It's being used for SETI, but it's also you know, a pretty powerful radio telescope, so it's also used for, if you will, conventional astronomical research. It's still, you know, far short of the original intention, which was to build two or three hundred of these antennas across the valley floor
here in well, California, behind the Sierras. But you know, there wasn't enough money to do that, so we have what is it is somewhere between forty and fifty antennas, and they're being used, as they say, for SETI, trying to find a signal that would betray the aliens, but they're also used for radio astronomy.
Now, tell us what other countries have with organizations like SETI. Anything, not too many?
Actually SETI this is actually an interesting thing, at least to me. I hoped from the listeners that SETI this idea that you might be able to find the aliens by tuning them in on the radio that's been almost exclusively an American experiment since its beginning, since Frank Drake did the first SETI experiment back in nineteen sixty, it's only been the Americans that have done this now, you know, to me, the interesting thing is why is that? It's not that the Americans are the only ones who have
the equipment. That's not true. I lived in Europe for thirteen years actually, and you know, there are a whole bunch of radio telescopes in Europe. In particular, I was in the Netherlands and they had a very large antenna array that they could have used for SETI. The only person who ever used that antenna array for SETI was me an American and that, you know, that kind of surprised me. And I would ask my Dutch colleagues and say, why why don't you guys try doing some experiments here
using this array? And they, you know, they kind of poop pooted. They didn't think it was real science.
Can we assume that every extraterrestrial race out there is friendly? We can't do that, can we?
No, you can't. You have no idea whether they're friendly or not. I mean, you don't want to make a mistake. I suppose. I mean, there is this. I don't worry too much about hostile aliens, although they're pretty amusing in
the movies. But I think that if there were a lot of hostile alien species out there, and out there I mean not terribly far away, within one hundred light years or something that's relatively next door astronomically speaking, I think that if such societies existed and they, you know, wanted to do us in, they would have done us in a long time ago. I mean, you know, they
could presumably do that. I'm not sure what's in it for them, and it would be expensive, but the fact that they haven't done it suggests to me that, you know, we don't show up on their radar.
As it were, if we found aliens, if you actually saw one walk in, what do you think it would look like?
Well, yeah, you know, I occasionally get phone calls from people in Hollywood who want to know what the aliens look like too, because you know, they're making a movie that involves aliens and they want to get the aliens right, which is to say, they want them to be scientifically plausible. Yeah, but of course, you know, the requirements of the story usually don't allow you to do that because in most movies,
aliens are not friendly. I mean, if they're friendly, if you're just going to palle around with them, like Et the Extraterrestrial, I mean, that's not a very dramatic movie. You want the aliens to, you know, have attitude and flatten Downtown Loss Angelist or something like that. So it pays to make them ugly looking. But of course ugly is you know, in the eyes of the beholder, I suppose, and an ugly alien might be attractive to other aliens.
But anyhow, nobody knows what they're going to look like except this, and I have said this before because I really think there's something in it, and that is that any society that's able to, you know, travel between the stars and maybe come to Earth or whatever. If they can do that, they've already invented thinking machines were about to do that. So I suspect that the majority of intelligent aliens are just machinery. They're not you know, they're not squishy guys soaked in mucus.
What if they're looking for a new home.
Set, well, well, I don't know that our home would befit them. I mean, I don't know what their own planet's like, but maybe their home planet, you know, has nice temperatures like ours does, and has liquid We have a lot of water on this planet and that may be useful to some of the aliens. Maybe even the atmosphere that we have might appeal to them too. But again, I think that if they were relatively nearby and this was something that appealed to them, they would have done
it already. I mean, this is the storyline of War the World's Right, the HG. Wells story, that the Martians decide that their own world is no longer very attractive to them, and so they take over ours. But of course the assumption is that they could survive on our world. It turns out that they couldn't actually, But you know, I don't know that they would be so interested in our world unless they were biological and had biology that was somewhat similar to our own.
Who would take the forefront to release the information? Would it be SETI would it be the governments? Who do you think it would be?
Yeah, that's actually an interesting question. People have, you know, sat around at various lunches and dinners talking about it. There is a protocol we've talked about it occasionally, and that says I mean, it's intended for people who are trying to pick up the aliens on a radio telescope or maybe even an optical telescope, an ordinary telescope. But the protocol, which has no force of law, nobody really has to listen to it. But what it says is that if you do pick up a signal, you're supposed
to make that public knowledge. Now, you know a lot of people and I run into them all the time, think that that wouldn't happen, that the government would swoop in and keep that story from getting out there, because the public would go nuts if they knew that there
were aliens nearby. I don't believe that. But in any case, you couldn't keep it secret anyhow, because if you were to pick up a signal, or you were to see something in space that you know, you didn't recognize and you figured it was an alien construction, you would want as many as scientists around the world to look at that as you could get because you'd want as much information. So the idea that you would keep it secret and that the government would keep it secret, I mean that
you know that doesn't sound right to me. I don't think you could keep it secret. I think I've mentioned that I had a job summer jobs with the federal government in Washington, and I had I think it was top secret clearance for a while, right And you know, I got to tell you, George, I was never terribly
impressed with the government's abilities to keep anything secret. And something like this, which is after all, a science, it's not a nuclear weapon or anything, I think it would be impossible to keep it secret.
It is exciting, though, suff isn't it?
Well, it is. I think it's one of the most exciting things going. I mean, the twenty first century may be remembered as a century where we finally figured out that, you know, there's somebody out there. I mean, that may be the lasting legacy of our century.
Where is SETI located, Well, the.
SETI Institute, which of course is where I work. That's a nonprofit research organization with you know, they're like one hundred employees, but they're mostly research scientists, and we're located in Mountain View. That's where I'm speaking to you from mountain View, California, which is in the Silicon Valley. It's where Google has its headquarters in case that helps you at all.
Do you give tours?
Well, I have given tours. I mean sometimes people will call up and say, hey, can I get a tour? And if it's not you know, I mean, if it's a day in which I have some time to give it to her, which is actually quite quite a number of days, I'm happy to give it to her. But I have to. I always warn them. I say, look, I don't know what you think you're going to see here, but it's just a bunch of offices. The really interesting thing to visit would be the telescopes themselves, the antennas, but
they're not here in the Silicon Valley. They're up about a five hour or four hour drive north of San Francisco, so you can go visit those two. But you know, there're somehow I think, more interesting to visit than the offices of the SETI Institute.
How was your tenure appared to other members of SETI.
My tenure you mean my personal tenure?
Yeah, as long as you've been there.
Oh well, I've been there a long time now. I joined the institute. I think it was nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety. It's not for me to believe that but I think it's true.
Yeah, I think I interviewed you back in nineteen ninety six when you were at Arecibo and Puerto Rico, and I was doing my local Saint Louis Nighthawk show.
Yep, I remember it. I remember it well, I can still picture it. But yeah, and and also Art DELI did the Art Bell Show a couple of times.
Yep. Filled in for Art for a while. And here where I am now, and the rest is history.
Indeed, I have to tell you there's not that this maybe matters terribly much. But I was on a cruise up the Inside Passage to Alaska, you know, I was given a lecture or two. And one of the other people on board the ship was Jimmy.
Church, good old Jimmy, our buddy.
Yeah. Yeah, he substitutes for you, I think occasionally.
Very nice guy, Jimmy Church. He believes in extraterrestrials too.
Well, he does. Yeah, we had some interesting meals.
Since all this has been going on. What's your best guess on what's going to happen over the next couple of years.
Well, it's you know, it's always difficult to kind of predict what's likely to happen in the research field, because research is you know, it's exploration, and you never know what's going to be discovered next year, ten years from now, or anything like that. But the patient is that sooner or later, you know we're going to be we're going to pick up a signal that is not just interference from some radar station, but a signal that's actually produced
by a transmitter on another world operated by aliens. Right, that's the assumption, and that's the goal, and that's the intent, and that's what would be absolutely the most interesting thing we could do. But we haven't done that yet. We haven't picked up yet. And why is that. Well, it could be that there aren't any aliens, but I don't believe that, and I don't think you believe that either. The aliens are out there, but you know, we haven't
picked them up. Maybe they're broadcasting at very low power levels and we just can't pick them up. Or maybe they're broadcasting in particular directions and not our direction, so there are lots of or maybe we're just listening on the at the wrong spot on the radio dial the wrong frequency. There are lots of reasons why we might might not pick them up. But eventually, I think we will. And what's eventually, Well, I've always said within twenty years.
I think I've been saying that for twenty five years. But I think within a few decades we'll likely pick something up. But you know, don't hold your breath.
More than half of the US population believes that aliens are visiting the planet. That's astounding, isn't it.
It is astounding. But on the other hand, more than half the population of the US believes in ghosts too. And although you know, ghosts are fun to talk about, I mean, you know, you can go to the Smithsonian or any other science museum or whatever, and you don't find too much about ghosts because there's a much science there. So the fact that a lot of people believe that the Earth is being visited, I mean, that's interesting, but it doesn't prove that Earth's being visited.
What would it get you to change your mind?
Well, I mean I think that if you know, I picked up the newspaper off my front porch tomorrow morning and there was a photograph of an retrieved alien, I mean, that would be certainly compelling evidence. Because the papers I subscribe to are fairly reputable so you know that would be that would be a big thing, but it would also be immediately picked up by all the science publications.
I mean, it would be a big science story. And so it's one of those things that if you claim that you've made this discovery, you'd have to prove it the same way you'd have to prove the discovery of I don't know, cold fusion or some other science discovery. You have to, you know, do an experiment or provide photos or give tours or something right. And it's not something that you would want to keep secret because then you don't get the Nobel Prize. You don't get the
Nobel Prize. Or keeping something a secret.
That newspaper photograph might show, are buddy George Knapp shaking hands with an.
Alien, Well, I'm glad they're on friendly terms.
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