Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.
We were talking about, you know, the possibility that Sir Hans, Sirhan was programmed to be an assassin or programmed to be a patsy, and you were suggesting or asserting that in order for whoever these shadowy figures were that would do something like this, you know, to pick someone like Sir Han Surhan, they would have known how to have known about you know, his the trauma that he suffered back in in Jordan or Palestine from a very young age.
So at all, it's very unlikely. Also the idea of creating these I don't know, super soldiers or programmed assassins. They just didn't have the sophistication to do that because while they might be able to implant other memories or other thoughts, they couldn't get the subject to do what they wanted them to do. Is that have I basically summed that up correctly?
Yeah? Yeah, he did a good job with that. The difficulty after I reviewed the research on hypno program people is that, as I said with doctor Cameron, with the studies at Stanford, with the studies at Vacaville, diagnostic center, they really couldn't produce the directionality or the implanning of thoughts that would lead to the creation of a person that they wanted to create. Cameron was especially disappointed because he although he could ablate thoughts and he destroyed a
lot of patients short term and remote memory. A lot of patients actually later sued him because of his malpractice. But he really couldn't replace the thoughts with his psychic driving program, even though he tried for a long time. The issue in terms of if it was possible, it would certainly take months and months of this kind of programming and a course of sensory deprivation where the individual would be sequestered somewhere, let's say at McGill University in
Canada for months at a time. When Cameron engaged in his thought destruction program, he had these patients deconditioned, deprogrammed, and de patterned for six months to a year in order to achieve his thought reduction programer thought elimination program, and then his failed thought replacement program really didn't work or produce a person that he could say what was now self directed as he wanted that person to be with the marsh case that I illustrated before who or
Marsh didn't really know what happened to him, but he was programmed by a fellow prisoner who was a hypnotist, and he arrived in southern California with no understanding of how he got there with with Sir An when he saw doctor Brown, he reported that doctor Brown saw him switch into a distinctly different personality in terms of a flashback that only under hypnosis could he elicit this individual personality that was the personality that he thought was responsible
for killing Robert Kennedy. He called he called this particular situation or mental status range mode where Sir Hand would mimic having a gun in his hand like a flashback when he was at the firing range, when actually he was firing live bullets at Robert Kennedy. As you mentioned, not only was Robert Kennedy assassinated, but Paul Schrade was standing next to him. He was wounded as well as four other people. So there were six people that were
wounded there. There's a a general theory concerning the number of bullets. There's acoustics stuff, uh recording more than more than eight shots, which which is beyond my UH my pay grade to understand how acoustics can account for these shots. My theory is essentially the same as doctor Diamonds, Doctor Brown's, and the other doctors who seem to agree that there was a disassociated state that Sir Hand had created over the years as a repository for this anger that he
assimilated from the people, very people who persecuted him. So that's the Stockholm syndrome or the identification with the aggressor, and that's my particular theory.
Okay. So then the question arises, why fifty six years later, is, for example, you know, John Hinckley, who attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan has been out of prison for a number of years, maybe I don't know, ten years or something like that. Why is Sir Hans Sir Hand still behind bars? Is he, in your estimation as a forensic psychologist, still a threat? I mean, if he has this dissociative disorder that doesn't just go away, presumably could he be triggered into another violent act.
Now? Not after the passage of time and the amount of therapy that he's undergone for fifty six years in prison is highly unlikely, especially with the reviews he's had by the forensic psychologists who were consistently evaluating him for fifty six years. There's no evidence that he has any
violent tendencies at this time. My view is that he's being held now in San Diego in a state prison as purely as a political prisoner, based on the California Governor Newsom's belief that he is not remorseful for his particular act. Interesting enough, now his his appeals attorneys are trying to go to the file with the California Supreme Court to say that he was with a rid of
habeas corpus. Why is he being held when the when the Parole Board on at least one occasion approved his parole, So it seems inconsistent with all the findings that he's still being held in prison. Leslie Van Houghton of the Manson family fame. She was paroled earlier this year after she committed a violent murder. She murdered Rosemary la Bianca, stabbed her fourteen times in the back, extremely violent act.
Governor Newsom had no problem releasing her. I just think that that Sir hand is a is a hot potato, and the even though RFK Junior believes that Sir Hans should be paroled.
Yes, right, Does Sir hann I believe he has another parole hearing coming up in this year?
Is it?
Is it?
Next month?
He has a parole hearing coming up. But there's also the legitimacy of why he's being held. That's the habeas corpus issue, and the Supreme Court of California they're going to file his attorneys are going to file with the state to say that he's being held illegitimately more or less as a political prisoner and not somebody who is a danger to future danger to society.
If you were to appear at that parole hearing, what would you tell the board in your capacity as a forensic psychologist?
There is no empirical evidence based on a long string of testing and assessment in the in the prison system by the psychologist who were who are hired to assess the suitability for these people to achieve parole. There there is not one assessment that says he's a danger anymore. When you when you look at violent behavior, it runs along the same graph as drug behavior. The older you get, the less frequency you're going to have of people acting out and or using drugs. So as you get older,
these kinds of of inclinations towards aggressive behavior disappear. With with with sir hand that he did not one of his reviews shows that he has any any kind of a dangerous personality.
H Does he understand you think that he according to your research, that he was in fact responsible, but that because he had had this dissociative disorder. Has he acknowledged that to your mind? Does he understand that's what happened?
Yeah, he said. Let me read you a quote that he said. He said that I didn't know I had a gun at the time. There was a target like flashing in my face. I thought I was at the target range. I could be fantasizing or dreaming that I was at a gun range. I thought that I was at the gun range, and actually I was shooting at I didn't know I was shooting at a person, let alone Bobby Kennedy. So that addresses the amnesia part of it, that the separate personality was the one that was responsible
for the homicide, not his ordinary person. As doctor Diamond said, you mentioned an interesting point before concerning his diary. Yes, the diary is and I'm glad you brought that up to the diary is really a very pivotal part of this particular case, especially leading to the conviction. In the diary that that's been labeled as as RFK must die. There are many inculpatory statements, guilty statements that he writes about Kennedy. This is pre assassination, which which necessitates premeditation
or supports the notion of premeditation and planning. In the diary, he makes many references concerning RFK must die. If he was standing in front of me, I would blast him. Statements like this that were allowed into evidence at the trial by the prosecution. The judge allowed this evidence several pages of the diary. The diary runs twenty to thirty pages of sometimes incomprehensible writing, but the judge allowed twenty a few pages of the diary into evidence to be
used against against Sir Hand. When the jury read these particular passages, they couldn't really fit together the pieces that they were not written by the ordinary sur hand. They were written by the altered sur hand the defense, and this is the key one of the key mistakes from the trial. The defense decided that this was a great idea to present this information of the premeditation and these negative statements, so they admitted the entire diary into evidence.
Their theory being that these statements were so bizarre it would substantiate that Sir Hand was schizophrenic. It had a completely paradoxical effect that Jerry said, this is proof positive that this guy planned, premeditated, carried through, and murdered Robert Kennedy. He's going to the gas chamber. So the defense just made a really stupid air that's redundant. The defense made an air by allowing the preponderance of the diary into
evidence when they didn't have to. They needed an alternative explanation, which was Sir Hand's references to the diary consistently throughout the trial transcript. The trial transcript that I read reads about six thousand pages. In his hit statements, many times he says, I don't know about this statement. I don't understand that. I didn't write that. That's not me who
wrote that. Did somebody plant that in there? So in his ordinary state, he's completely unaware of what the altered personality did, which is very similar to what happened in the Three Phases of Eve where Eve Black, who was the evil twin was engaging in lots of questionable promiscuity behavior, and Eve White, the naive ordinary person, was completely unaware of it and shocked when she found out that these activities were going on within the same person.
If you were sitting across from Sir hanser Hand, and I don't know if if you had any access to him when you were writing the book, but what would you ask him? What would be the number one question you'd want to ask Sir hanser Hand.
The number one question would be too hypnotize him, first of all, to take him back in time to the the scene of the crime, and to to inform him or to to to bring him along into the notion of a disassociated personality, and that in his in his ordinary state of awareness, he had no understanding of what happened. And he's probably still confused as to what is the real ideology or the cause of me engaging this behavior.
He says, yes, I was there, Yes they caught me, Yes I had a gun, but I don't remember anything because he was in a in an altered state when he committed this particular crime. I think that would be terribly insightful for him to be able to via hypnosis, to be able to to dis cover the roots of this this second personality, and that the second personality is the one who cru who shot Kennedy.
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam dot com for more