263: Navigating Accommodations and Self-Advocacy in the Legal Field (w/AJ Link)

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Plus, as a listener of our podcast, you get an exclusive 15% off the "Boost Deck", which is the product on SpacedRepetition.com made specifically for bar preppers. When you check out, enter "toolbox" in all lower-case letters to get the discount! Today we are excited to have AJ Link joining us on the podcast. AJ is the president of the National Disabled Legal Professionals Association, and today we are going to be talking about accommodations and advocating for yourself in the legal profession.

So AJ, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for taking time to speak with me.

I am the former president of the National Disabled Law Students Association. And I've had a weird winding journey to get here. I went to undergrad in Florida, where I'm from. And then I was just hanging out and I was like, "Oh, maybe I should do something with my life." So I decided to go to law school on a whim. I guess that's not normal. Most people don't get bored and go to law school, but that's what I did. And I moved to D.C., I went to GW.

And that's where I started doing advocacy in a more tangible sense, and working on issues I cared about. So, doing advocacy for law students with disabilities while I was in school, doing advocacy for students with disability more broadly, studying human rights law, studying disability rights, and growing as an advocate. And like many advocates, I started off doing self-advocacy, which we're going to talk about and how difficult that can be sometimes.

And then I started doing advocacy for other students, and then advocacy for an organization, and that just kept growing and growing until I became allegedly a national disability advocate, doing disability advocacy for students all around the country, for early career professionals all around the country, and taking the knowledge and the skills that I had, and applying it in different spaces to make the legal profession and other places more accessible for disabled

folks who deserve to be in those spaces. So, I know that was a roundabout way of getting to who I am and what I do, but I mostly just do disability advocacy wherever I am and whatever project I'm working on.

And what happened was, we were students at the time, and so we made an organization for students, but also early career professionals that still had some of the same problems and issues that students had, or recent graduates had, so that includes licensure and taking the bar exam and things like that.

But as that cohort of advocates grew up and started their careers, we realized that there was a need for a separate organization, an organization that still works closely with NDLSA, so we have a good relationship with them, but focused on legal professionals - and not just attorneys, but all legal professionals that can include disabled judges, that can include disabled paralegals or any other kind of person within the legal profession that is disabled and needs

community, needs support, needs whatever. And so, we decided that as a group, after we had outgrown NDLSA and had left it to the next generation of student leaders and advocates, that we should make an organization that better represented where we were in our careers and where we were moving in our careers. And so, we founded the National Disabled Legal Professionals Association, either 2023, 2024. Time is a flat circle, or whatever the saying is.

But yeah, again, I think something that is helpful for me - not helpful in answering this question - is, it's always the same work, whatever the title of the organization is, whatever the structure of the group of organizer advocates is, it's all the same work. And so for me, it's easy to just say, "Well, I'm doing the same thing." But when someone asks me a question like what's the date, it's a lot harder to distinguish between projects. So, maybe I should work on that.

But for me, it's just like, it's the same work I've always been doing; it's just under a different label.

And you can reach out to the NDLSA leadership team, you can reach out to their website, they've got social media on a bunch of different platforms and figure out what schools have student organizations or something like that. So there are a ton of resources out there, definitely check them out. Visit the website. People are also free to reach out to me and I can connect them with all the relevant folks. But if you're a student, there are definitely people out there that are willing to help.

There's definitely community out there. And hopefully you're at a school that has a student organization. And if you don't, I guess going back to what we just talked about - maybe you can make one. They have resources to help you start an organization too, if

There are so many different reasons and the system has been created to reinforce those, to tell people you don't need accommodations, or you're not disabled enough to get accommodations, or you don't deserve accommodations, or accommodations are a form of cheating and it makes you less worthy if you use accommodations and pass the bar exam. I think there are so many different reasons and everyone's experience with the process is different.

I think there are some people who try to get accommodations and don't get them, and for whatever reason have to take the exam again, and then don't want to go through that process because it was so difficult, because it was so frustrating, because it was so traumatic. It's really frustrating and enraging having to hear some of the stories that people share with me - and I'm really fortunate that they trust me with those stories - because it shouldn't have to be that way.

It's a choice we've decided as a collective profession I didn't decide it because I wasn't around - but collectively as a profession, we've decided that we want to make this process as difficult, as frustrating, as hard as possible. And I know some jurisdictions are moving in a more accessible direction and a better direction, but collectively, we still have such a long way to go to make the accommodations process for these examinations easier and more accessible to folks.

And that may be through the lens of someone who isn't needing to advocate for these accommodations for themselves. But I also think that I've had students where I've said, "I think you need to advocate for yourself. I think you need this." And they feel guilty about that, or they feel that it is somehow like a benefit that they're asking for. And for me personally, this idea that all we're trying to do is level the playing field...

Whether or not the game is rigged is a whole different question, right? Whether or not the game should be as the game is. But in the game that we have chosen to play, we're just trying to level the playing field. That really changed my perspective as I learned more about this. I do try to share that idea with students who are struggling with this idea that they're going to get something extra, because it's not getting something extra; it's just leveling the playing field.

Am I explaining it in a way that you think is helpful?

How do we create an environment where they can be their best selves? I know that the bar exam is a gatekeeping mechanism, and that's what it was designed to do. The alleged reason for the bar exam is to show minimum competency or minimal competency. But for me it's more of, how can we see the best of this person in this situation? I don't want to know how minimally competent a person is; I want to know how they thrive.

And we can talk about whether or not the bar exam is the best measure of someone's ability to be a legal professional because everyone knows it's not, even the people who try to defend it, but for me, it's not necessarily leveling the playing field, even though I know that's what the accommodations in a strict sense are trying to do. It's, how do we create the best environment for this person to thrive? How can we see the best of this person?

The legal profession to me is supposed to be this really - I don't want to say "prestigious" because I think that's part of the gatekeeping problem - but this really cool opportunity to do tangible work to make people's lives better, if that is what people choose to do. And I want to see the best of people when they're trying to do that, when they're trying to reach that level.

I don't want to be part of a community and a profession where the hazing ritual is, "How can we make your life as miserable as possible for 48 to 72 hours and see if you survive?" For me personally, that is not how I want to view my profession, and I think unfortunately that is the way a lot of people view it. And a lot of people in the legal profession take pride in that, unfortunately.

I've learned about many other possible accommodations over the years, from being able to use a whiteboard, to being able to dictate things, to breastfeeding accommodations, if you are pumping breast milk, if you've just had a child, to being closer to the restroom, if you have a medical condition that means you might need to go to the restroom, being able to drink water.

I've also learned that accommodations includes a very wide array of things that you can ask for, but of course you have to be empowered to ask for them. And I think that's what's really the challenge - you have to know that those accommodations are available, and then you have to go be able to ask for them. So, how do you think that we create more visibility around these possible accommodations and encourage folks to ask for the very specific things that they may need?

I think whatever you need in order to have the best test-taking environment for you possible is something that you should ask for. This is something I learned about during law school, where I had an accommodation for a private setting and extended time, and I just happened to get a white noise machine once and I thought, "Oh, this is cool." And I didn't get the white noise machine. I didn't ask for the white noise machine as an accommodation, and I didn't get it.

After I had gotten it a few times, I was like, "Oh, can I have a white noise machine?" And the response was, "Oh, we don't have one. It's not in your accommodations, so you can't use it." It wasn't the worst thing ever for me, but I realize that you need to be very explicit and you need to talk to the people who are writing your notes, your PCP, your medical providers, whoever who are writing your notes and your documentation to be very specific.

Maybe you need to use the bathroom at least three times every hour and you need stop clock breaks for that. So, you need to ask for extended time, stop clock breaks, and bathroom breaks to use those. And to your point, it can be really creative. It may not be something that is necessarily caused by your disability, but it could be an accommodation that lessens the impact of your disability, or prevents your disability from being exasperated during the exam.

And something that I talked about at this event is, it's really important to craft your request and your notice and your documentation as a holistic story of why you need it. So not saying, "I have this disability which requires this accommodation, and I have this other disability that requires this other accommodation."

It's, "No, I am a disabled person with all of these disabilities that impact me in such a way that I need to have all of these accommodations in order to the point you were making earlier - to thrive, to level the playing field, to be in the best environment possible in order for me to show my competency on this exam." So, I think you can ask for whatever, right? What they'll give you is obviously different. And there's the reasonable restriction on that.

Who even knows what "reasonable" is in the legal profession?

But ask for whatever you need and be able to craft the narrative to justify that. I don't think you should restrict yourself to time and a half and a quiet space. I know people who have asked for paper copies of an electronic exam, because they can't process properly. I know people who have had to ask for a reader, someone to read the questions to them instead of using screen reading software, just because of how they process.

It really just depends on the person, and part of asking for the accommodations that you need is really evaluating, again, the best environment that you can create for yourself.

Maybe it'll make things more equitable around the country, hopefully. But if it doesn't, I think that it is worth exploring to take in all of your options. Because again, it's not like you're trying to get a leg up; you're just trying to level the playing field, you're trying to be your best self. So, there's nothing wrong with finding a jurisdiction that's going to allow you to do that so you can get licensed.

Sometimes it takes a couple of tries, and it's heartbreaking for me when somebody applies for accommodations as late as possible, like right before the deadline, and then they'll get their accommodations letter days before the test, and then there's no hope at appeal, because there's no time. So, have you seen in your work the appeals process be helpful for students? Do you also encourage folks to apply as early as they can?

A lot of students aren't thinking about this because they shouldn't while they're in school, but you need to start the process, I would say as early as your 1L summer, making sure that you have updated diagnostics and diagnoses, which is really unfortunate for people who have lifetime diagnoses, but a lot of jurisdictions will say, and I've heard direct things like, "Are you still autistic?" Like it goes away, right?

Yeah, but a lot of times you need to have a diagnosis within, a lot of jurisdictions will say the last five years, some will say the last 10. And a lot of people who have accommodations have had them since they were in elementary school. I've had IEPs or 504 plans that are 15, maybe 20 years old, and for some jurisdictions that documentation isn't recent enough, isn't good enough.

There is also the reverse, where people have developed disabilities or become aware of their disabilities in law school, or they have access to better health care to be diagnosed with disabilities in law school, so they don't have that full record. Maybe it happened your 1L year, and by the time you're a 3L or you've taken a year off to study for the bar, that diagnostic isn't current enough. So, all of this is to say that's just one part of it.

Start the process as early as possible, learn about the jurisdictions that you may or may not be applying to and their processes as early as possible. Reach out to the jurisdictions, asking them, "How does your accommodations process work? Who is the point of contact for your accommodations process? What materials do I need?

How early can I turn them in?", rather than when's the due date, which I know is frustrating as a law student because people are doing all different types of things and have all different types of focuses. But I think that's really important to understand, that these systems aren't designed to make sure that you have your accommodations, whether you've had accommodations in law school or not. I've had this question too. I'm sure we'll talk about it, right? It doesn't matter.

Some jurisdictions take into account that you've had accommodations in law school and that's a benefit to you. Some jurisdictions don't take that into account at all. Some jurisdictions take into account that you didn't have accommodations in law school, because a lot of students self-accommodate, and they will use that against you.

It's really hard to know jurisdiction by jurisdiction; that's why it's really important to reach out to the jurisdictions to understand their processes, and to do that in email, so you have it in writing. Practicing good skills as you join the legal profession to make sure you're documenting the conversations you're having, to use that to your advantage.

Maybe they only allow phone calls, but sending a follow-up email somewhere to document, saying, "This is the conversation I had, this is the information I have", and getting as much information as possible about the process before, again, you begin the process, is really helpful. And again, that may be as early as your 1L summer; it should definitely be no later than your 2L summer.

You can't go back and make records. You can get new records, but you can't go back and lay a new foundation. In a law school situation, if a student, let's say, has a newly diagnosed disability, is it the Disability Services for the college as a whole - because usually the law school is associated with a larger university - that will help a student make sure that they're laying the groundwork for that documentation and getting the access they need in law school?

Or is that something you go to your dean's office about? Where should students start going if they want help at their schools? Or to your organization for the disabled law students.

If it outsources to the larger university, that means you have someone outside the law school enforcing it, and hopefully, having the students back to make sure they're getting the accommodations. But if it's internal to the law school, maybe they're more familiar with the student and the processes and have better relationships with the professors, and are able to work to ensure that the student is getting the accommodations they deserve and can do better follow-up. So, it depends.

I would say it's really hard to know. Sometimes it's the Career Services office, because they're the ones who do the licensure and the preparation; they're the ones who are helping students navigate which jurisdiction they're going to take the test in, or which jurisdictions they have the opportunity to test in. It's really difficult to know and understand. This is something that I learned as a student doing advocacy, is learning the bureaucracy.

And I know that it was a privilege for me in the way that I did law school, that I had the opportunity to learn to navigate the bureaucracy at my institutions, and not everyone has that time or capacity. But that is really helpful - learning who in the office is really helpful and nice and can get you a meeting and can send the email for you is very beneficial to you when you need it.

And I think student advocates and organizers should practice that skill and learn that skill, so that they can do it for their fellow students who maybe don't have the time and capacity. So saying, "This is who has been really helpful to our organization or to me personally in navigating this process, this is who you should talk to, this is who you should avoid."

These are really small pieces of information that can be really beneficial down the line, and that just takes time and organizing and advocacy efforts.

What can you share with folks who are really feeling hesitant at advocating for themselves around their law school and with the state bar, - to be able to get what they need to get the licensure that's so important to do the work that they want to do, but are concerned about how this is going to reflect on them?

Something I talk about when I'm doing trainings with people is, some people just want the privilege of mediocrity or the privilege of invisibility, right? You don't want to be quote/unquote, the one for your identity, the one who's out there all the time being vocal, being a frustrating presence, being annoying to administration. A lot of people just don't want that. They can't do it, they don't have the capacity for it, that's not the type of person that they are. And that's okay.

I think a lot of people need to understand that's okay. You don't have to wrestle with it if you don't want to. You don't have to feel bad if you're not being the best disabled advocate at your institution or your law firm or whatever, and that's okay. Other people will do it eventually, someone always will do it. There are organizations out there. I exist if no one else is doing it, at least one person. No, there're so many amazing disabled advocates.

But I think for students, not giving yourself that pressure to do something that's uncomfortable is okay. If you want to do it and you wrestle with it because it's something you want to do and you're struggling with it, I think that's okay too. There are mentors out there, there are resources out there, there are organizations you can talk to, there are people who've done it and experienced it that you can talk to.

And so, I think for me it's, again, going back to how are you most comfortable and what's going to help you thrive? Is being vocal about your needs going to help you thrive once you get those needs, or is it going to cause too much frustration? Is it going to drain you? Is it going to take up too much of your capacity, and then you're not going to do well? If you spend all your time fighting for accommodations, and that takes away from your ability to study and do your work, is it worth it?

That's a really personal question and something that's really personal for people to decide. As an example for me, it was more important for me based on who I wanted to become as an advocate to practice my advocacy skills, doing advocacy work and kind of that tangible work than studying black-letter law, which is important, I use black-letter law. But for me, personally, developing those advocacy skills was more important and better for me than spending hours in the library studying cases.

That was just how it was for me; that's not how it is for everyone. I just say that to say that everyone's experience is different, and it's okay if you don't want to be an advocate. And if you do, there are lots of resources out there to help you navigate the type of advocate you want to be, because there are different types of advocacy that you can do too, especially when you're talking about self-advocacy and how you go about that.

And I also think that's where the student organizations come in and can be so helpful and important they exist so that students don't have to do it on their own.

I would highly advise people to look into that before they sign up for a test. But if you do want to be a practicing attorney, I think it's important, again, to the extent possible to do your research about the process. I know the job market can be really competitive and not everyone has the opportunity to pick from different employers, but as you're navigating the recruitment process, you are also interviewing your future employer. You are also learning about them and what they value.

You can learn about their values by requesting accommodations through the interview process if you feel comfortable. Not everyone is comfortable disclosing during the interview process, and that's okay. But that's an opportunity to gauge what the process is like, who the point people are, how receptive they are to providing accommodations. Do they have the resources to provide accommodations if you're going to work at a smaller or mid-level firm that maybe doesn't have all the resources?

I think there are lots of different ways to see what an organization is like, and the interview process is one of the first places you can do that. You can do soft disclosure, so through your cover letter, or saying that you're part of a disability student organization, or disability and allies student organization, because a lot of organizations use allies because of kind of the stigma of thinking anyone that's part of the student organization is disabled or identifies as disabled.

And then you go from there. Once you're hired, do immediately reach out to HR, whoever the person is, because again, not every law firm or company or organization is going to have an HR person who handles accommodations. Is the organization you're working for technically covered under the ADA? There's another tough question to ask because they may not be. Does the organization have an affinity group or an ERG - an employee resource group - that is for disabled employees?

Do they have that resource? I think there are lots of different ways you can do some research. And again, this all takes time and working capacity, and not everyone has that - I want to fully acknowledge that. But there're things that you can do to figure out where companies are, what they believe in, and how to navigate that process.

Maybe working with Career Services around that if you're comfortable talking to them. It could be an opportunity to spread out some of that work, so you're not just doing it as part of your job hunt too.

But I do know that there are people working to try to make all this work less cumbersome, easier to access, and hopefully things like that exist. I know that internally students communicate and early career professionals communicate about which schools and which companies are okay, and which are maybe not so okay and not great, and which jurisdictions are doing better and which aren't. Those forums and those avenues for communication are available; you just have to find them.

If you're doing something that no one else is doing, it's totally okay to do that, and you should trust yourself. So, I would give myself the validation of knowing that I made the right choices.

One of the things about being a new organization is you have to find the funding to do all the infrastructure stuff. So, once we have all that, maybe I can link to a website whenever I do a future podcast.

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