Reframing Marketing ROI to Return on Objectives with Karl Van den Bergh

B2B CMO - 005 - Karl Van den Bergh === [00:00:00] Jon Miller: [00:00:05] [00:00:10] [00:00:15] [00:00:20] Welcome again to the B2B [00:00:25] CMO podcast. This is Jon Miller, and today I'm joined by my always [00:00:30] co-host Sydney Sloan, as well as our special guest, Karl Van den Bergh, who is the [00:00:35] CMO over at Illumio, uh, known as the world's first breach containment [00:00:40] platform, which we will talk about, uh, over the course of more than 25 years, Karl has held leadership [00:00:45] roles in marketing product as a GM in the cloud, analytics and cybersecurity businesses, [00:00:50] including SAP, Gigamon, Datastax, and TibCo to name a few. Karl, welcome. So [00:00:55] glad to have you here. Karl Van den Bergh: Great to be here, Jon, and great to spend time with you and Sydney. Looking forward [00:01:00] to it. Sydney Sloan: Excellent. Well, we'll just dive right in. Um, and it's a question that [00:01:05] we'd like to start with and getting to know you a little bit better. Um, and I, [00:01:10] when doing research was so excited to ask you this question 'cause you have such a unique story. [00:01:15] Um, so you grew up in Ireland, went to Trinity College and Physics, and then you got your [00:01:20] master's degree in computer science from Imperial College in London, and then a [00:01:25] humanities degree from the Uni University in Florence. Sydney Sloan: And so. [00:01:30] We usually like to say, you know, tell your origin story, but I'm like, I want you to hit on all of those [00:01:35] parts Sydney Sloan: of, uh, where did you come from? Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah, exactly. I am a bit of a [00:01:40] mongrel as well. Growing up in Ireland with a last name Vandenberg at the time was [00:01:45] pretty unusual. Uh, so, and my first name is German, so I really have the worst Irish [00:01:50] name possible. Uh, but I am indeed Irish. I grew up in, in Dublin. Uh, my [00:01:55] dad was from Belgium. He moved over and met my mom, hence, uh, kind of growing up in [00:02:00] Ireland, but with a Flemish last name. Uh, and then, uh, as [00:02:05] you, as you just outlined, um, I do. Would love to travel. Uh, I still [00:02:10] do. Um, but I spent most of my life kind of working and [00:02:15] studying in different countries. And so the hard part for me was not moving and, [00:02:20] you know, discovering a new culture and make my way a new culture and, and, [00:02:25] and doing new things. Karl Van den Bergh: The hard part for me is actually staying still. And so I have [00:02:30] now stayed still here in California for 20 plus years 'cause I have kids and they [00:02:35] keep you, you know, one place. Uh, and I'm loving it. But, uh, yeah, my [00:02:40] origin and, and kind of the, the, uh, the studies, uh, I am a [00:02:45] lifelong learner. Um, I think Jon and I have physics in common. Karl Van den Bergh: I think it's a [00:02:50] fascinating science kind of between philosophy and, [00:02:55] and, and science sort of brings these things together. Um, and then, [00:03:00] um, but you know. Being a physicist wasn't my thing. And so I did [00:03:05] computer science, uh, and then just because I love learning, I went to Florence and did [00:03:10] humanities. Um, and we could talk a little bit more about that later. Karl Van den Bergh: But yeah, that's, that's it. And then [00:03:15] I kinda moved over here to Silicon Valley, I said about 20 years ago, and being in tech and different [00:03:20] functions. Um, and now the CMO at limbo. Jon Miller: [00:03:25] What do you think physics has taught you about marketing? Sydney Sloan: [00:03:30] Or humanity? Just Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah. All of all. Karl Van den Bergh: So, uh, so look, I, [00:03:35] I, I, uh, and even at the other functions that, that I've run, I, I, I think [00:03:40] marketing is just a fascinating function. Um, it, it, it is so [00:03:45] broad and requires so many different disciplines from, again, like philosophy or [00:03:50] like understanding people to, to the math of it. Obviously the mechanics of it now, [00:03:55] the sort of, it is one of the most tech forward functions. Um, you have to [00:04:00] understand numbers of course. Uh, you have to, you have to be strategic. And so I think [00:04:05] physics for me was it, it definitely. Requires you to think deeply and we [00:04:10] were, you know, I was deep into quantum mechanics at the time and just makes you understand that [00:04:15] the world is not as you see it. It is, you know, very different from what your senses tell [00:04:20] you it is. And I think that kind of broadens the perspective on how [00:04:25] and, and living in different countries too, how you see other people, how you understand, [00:04:30] um, how they operate and they think is not how you necessarily operate and think, [00:04:35] um, especially learning in language, uh, gives you that like extra [00:04:40] dimension. Um, but yeah, I just look, I. I, I, I [00:04:45] loved the fact that physics really makes you think deeply, and I think I've applied that in, [00:04:50] in how I market. Sydney Sloan: I've, I've often referred to it as, uh, as a head of marketing [00:04:55] or mark market, it tickles all parts of your brain, right? Like you go from one meeting where you're creative to the [00:05:00] next meeting where Sydney Sloan: you're deeply analytical to then a messaging Sydney Sloan: and then a Sydney Sloan: strategy session, and then no [00:05:05] two days are ever the same. Karl Van den Bergh: Which makes it really tough. Karl Van den Bergh: So, which is why, you know, Jon and I talked about this [00:05:10] ratio. I, it's a ratio I use a lot to kind of help people understand why [00:05:15] CMO tenure is so low and, uh, and, [00:05:20] and you know, on the lowest of the functions because of the complexity of the role to the [00:05:25] appreciation and the appreciation in the sense of recognition. 'cause it [00:05:30] kind of falls between the cracks of product and sales often. And the understanding and the [00:05:35] understanding bit in particular. 'cause you know, we've all heard this and said this many times [00:05:40] before that because we're all exposed to marketing as consumers, we [00:05:45] think, or a lot of people think they understand marketing and in B2B tech [00:05:50] marketing is so broad and so complicated and evolving [00:05:55] so fast. That it makes it a really hard job to do. You have to be, as you said, Sydney, [00:06:00] left brain, right brain, which is not easy for any one person to do. Sydney Sloan: [00:06:05] And I think, um, what we're trying to accomplish in the [00:06:10] B2B CMO project is to share these learnings of like, how do we remain [00:06:15] strategic? And I, I noticed that you call yourself a chief market officer. [00:06:20] Yay. I believe I share the same title. Um, and, and because I believe that [00:06:25] it is, um. You know, a different perspective, not the [00:06:30] act of marketing, but actually the impact of being a market leader. And I [00:06:35] would love for you to explain to our audience why, why do you have that title [00:06:40] and, and how do you define the role and your responsibility because it's not a chief [00:06:45] marketing role. Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah, so. I, I, you know, I hope [00:06:50] and expect that more CMOs will, will adapt the, the market [00:06:55] versus marketing. Um, I think, you know, marketing obviously is the function, but really what is the [00:07:00] function or what are we trying to do? It is to shape the market and it's also to communicate [00:07:05] the needs of the market to the company. Karl Van den Bergh: So it kind of goes bidirectionally and I [00:07:10] think shaping the market and shaping obviously, the company's [00:07:15] perception or positioning of the product positioning and offering in the market is the [00:07:20] primary responsibility. And so you have to operate at a [00:07:25] strategic level, and that means that you have to deploy all of the aspects of marketing from [00:07:30] brand and, you know, the awareness component all the way through to demand and enablement. [00:07:35] And so, um, yeah, for me it's, it's, uh, it's [00:07:40] also, you know, the unfortunate thing about being some, sometimes being the [00:07:45] kind of the marketing guy or gal is that customers [00:07:50] don't really want to meet with the marketing person. They wanna meet with the product [00:07:55] person. They have to know, meet with the sales person. Karl Van den Bergh: So I find sometimes marketing gets [00:08:00] in the way of being able to, you know, get close to customers. [00:08:05] And so, um, you know, being chief market or chief strategy [00:08:10] officer often enables closer contact with the market. Sydney Sloan: Hmm. Oh, that's [00:08:15] interesting. Uh, um, that's really interesting. I mean, 'cause my last two [00:08:20] stints have been in rev tech, so I, I ha I, that's why I've enjoyed it. And I also [00:08:25] did a stint in security where, you know, I didn't have much to say to a CISO I could listen, [00:08:30] um, because I wasn't yet an expert in that area. Sydney Sloan: I know you've gone deeply in cyber, so I can [00:08:35] imagine your level of expertise. Um, but one, one of the other questions I kind of wanted to touch [00:08:40] on before Jon picks up it was, it is The first finding in our research, which [00:08:45] was this ability to have influence was a direct correlation to [00:08:50] how you develop relationships across the C-suite. And in the idea of [00:08:55] this chief market officer role, do you think it changes how [00:09:00] you build relationships with the C-Suite or do you do it the same way as you've done before? [00:09:05] Um, Sydney Sloan: just Karl Van den Bergh: I, I started as Chief Marketing Officer and I was one, Hey, I, [00:09:10] I need to change a title. So, so that was the thing that we, we [00:09:15] started, uh, when, you know, during my tenure here, but, , the C-suite and building [00:09:20] those relationships and the understanding of marketing, uh, and the function, [00:09:25] uh, and value of marketing is one of the primary responsibilities of the CMO. I [00:09:30] call it the CMO tax. Uh, simply because it's not just [00:09:35] obviously the peers and the board, but it is something that we have to understand because of [00:09:40] that low RA ratio that I, I talked about high ratio because of the complexity depreciation. [00:09:45] A lot of what we need to do in order to be effective [00:09:50] ultimately is to educate, evangelize, and to kind of bring the C-suite and the board along the, [00:09:55] uh, the journey. And so, you know, the things that, uh, [00:10:00] and you know, a little bit of a playbook I've developed that, that I've found helpful in, in [00:10:05] doing that is, is one, you know, speak in a language. They understand and they do [00:10:10] understand numbers, they understand sales. I mean, you know, generally speaking. [00:10:15] And so often what I will, I will do is I will start [00:10:20] with the things they understand. Karl Van den Bergh: So they care about pipeline, the contribution to bookings and how all [00:10:25] of that, you know, um, the kind of the, the very [00:10:30] practical, ROI, right? Our invested dollar here. Here's the, [00:10:35] the, the pipeline and here's the bookings. You know, I don't get into top of the funnel too much because [00:10:40] again, that's sort of can be vanity metrics or it can be something that really. They [00:10:45] don't appreciate. So it's more about pipeline bookings. And then once you've [00:10:50] built a and, and we, the way I run marketing and the way I [00:10:55] talk about marketing with the, the executive team and the board is off is very [00:11:00] like sales, which is, I say we have a target, I have an over assignment of [00:11:05] target to my team. Karl Van den Bergh: So my team's targeted just like sales over signs. And then [00:11:10] we obviously have, I have a forecast too, so I forecast, [00:11:15] uh, and then, you know, we obviously report out. So, and then in order to be able [00:11:20] to go and do the other things that are very strategic and important to marketing. [00:11:25] I need to build a little bit of predictability that I'm gonna deliver on what I've committed [00:11:30] to. Karl Van den Bergh: And so we do, we do this and there's, there's ways to do that, um, that we could talk about, but [00:11:35] basically build that predictability. They understand the numbers, [00:11:40] they understand I'm delivering. And then I can talk about the bigger picture, and [00:11:45] that's super important to me. The bigger picture. I know, Jon, you're, you're all over this one, but [00:11:50] the bigger picture, the story, the awareness, you know, marketing [00:11:55] to all those people who are not currently in market, which is most of 'em, is super, [00:12:00] super important. Jon Miller: Well, and they just go say so hand in hand, right? You, you can't really [00:12:05] generate the pipeline if you haven't built the category and the brand position Karl Van den Bergh: [00:12:10] correct. Jon Miller: that kinda stuff. And like, I think that's something that you've done that to me is really [00:12:15] interesting at Illumio. So, you know, you, I'll let you tell a story, but you were [00:12:20] very methodical about defining the category, uh, that you're going in [00:12:25] and, and, and why you're going after that category and how you are [00:12:30] evangelizing the category, not just your position. Um, [00:12:35] and then ultimately how you're measuring that. So I, it was really insightful. So maybe you [00:12:40] Jon Miller: tell us about Karl Van den Bergh: first of all, advice to all CMOs out there do not create a category [00:12:45] unless you absolutely have to because Karl Van den Bergh: it, Sydney Sloan: So Karl Van den Bergh: it is [00:12:50] so hard. Karl Van den Bergh: It, and it's not just about the character. It's like, it's like now [00:12:55] we've gone through a couple of evolutions, uh as a company, I've been here for a year plus, [00:13:00] but the company has, has, you know, been around for, for 10 years and I believe [00:13:05] this is one of those companies where it's such an inflection point that's gonna be the overnight [00:13:10] success that took 10 years, which many great things do. Um. But for [00:13:15] the, for the category, for the, for length of the company, it really was kind of the microsegmentation or zero trust [00:13:20] segmentation company. And, and that was a long, hard slog [00:13:25] because again, back in the day, no one was like, what's microsegmentation? What's [00:13:30] segmentation? Why do I need it? I have all of these firewalls. Karl Van den Bergh: Why do I need this other thing? Right? And it's [00:13:35] getting the hardest thing to change. Inside a [00:13:40] company in the market, in any endeavor, as you note, are human beings, humans, [00:13:45] we take a long time to change our minds, and that's essentially what defining a category is. You've [00:13:50] got to get, like you've gotta squeeze in your. [00:13:55] Category or your product or your offering or a solution [00:14:00] into the way that they normally do business. And so that's really hard. But the, the [00:14:05] change that we went through over the last year was, whereas that first part was really about defining the [00:14:10] technology, which any start startup will do, right? They'll anchor their positioning to a [00:14:15] technology. Or a new way of doing things, which was segmentation and microsegmentation. And [00:14:20] for the audience that maybe doesn't know what that means, it basically just means when you've got your network, you [00:14:25] wanna break up your network, segment it so that when you have a [00:14:30] cyber attack and they are successful in getting in, which by the way now. [00:14:35] Absolutely guaranteed. With ai, they're gonna get in. You need to [00:14:40] basically segment off your high value assets, your customer data, et cetera, so that they can't get to those [00:14:45] assets. It's like basically having a safe in your house. Yes, you wanna have locks in your doors and windows, your [00:14:50] perimeter security, but once they get in, you want to have your jewelry and a safe, and that's what [00:14:55] we are. Karl Van den Bergh: We're kind of the safe for your. Your high value assets inside an organization, so they [00:15:00] can't do any damage. But that was where the company was positioned. What we've done [00:15:05] now, 'cause that's, I would say a technology-based definition of the market in category. [00:15:10] What we've done now is moved to a value-based, so we are now the Breach containment [00:15:15] company. So our value is, whereas most of the industry, I'd say [00:15:20] 99% of cyber is about stopping breaches. [00:15:25] Our positioning is breaches are inevitable. They will happen. Mythos, [00:15:30] if you've heard about the whole debacle about mythos, makes that very clear [00:15:35] that they will happen. They cyber, uh, attacks will, uh, be [00:15:40] successful. Karl Van den Bergh: They will get in and we are the ones that are focusing on containing the [00:15:45] breach so it doesn't become a disaster. And that breach containment, [00:15:50] contain the breach, which is kind of our, our tagline, has provided [00:15:55] tremendous benefit 'cause it really crystallizes the value and the differentiation very quickly [00:16:00] for what we do versus the 500 other cyber vendors out there. Jon Miller: [00:16:05] Can you talk, like, can you talk about how did you kind of bring the company along to [00:16:10] get to that outcome? You know, how did you convince your fellow peers? Then how did you make [00:16:15] the investments to actually start to communicate this? Karl Van den Bergh: [00:16:20] So, you know, some of this work is already, I would say, underway as a, as a [00:16:25] campaign. There was a, uh, uh, some, the, the, the corporate marketing team [00:16:30] had started, uh, an effort when I was on board, uh, to think [00:16:35] about how do we, what's a campaign that we can. You know, [00:16:40] show the value of what we do. Right. So, um, so some of this is already [00:16:45] underway, and when, when, uh, I, I, I had felt [00:16:50] coming to Illumio, I knew about the company for some time. Karl Van den Bergh: I felt it was a, a [00:16:55] diamond in the rough. I felt that we weren't yet communicating clearly to the market what [00:17:00] is the real impact of this technology. And so. [00:17:05] What we did was we tested out this, you know, campaign, um, [00:17:10] and it was really an awareness campaign. We did some stuff in Forbes and some other [00:17:15] venues, and we started to see, you know, positive feedback or [00:17:20] hear positive feedback. Karl Van den Bergh: So it was kind of a test at first. And then, um, [00:17:25] internally, you know, obviously talking with the CEO, we we're, we're lucky that we [00:17:30] have a founder who's still in seat as the CEO. So CEO founder, [00:17:35] um, understood the value and, and that the [00:17:40] time is right to change the positioning. Um, so there was very, actually [00:17:45] not a lot of resistance. Karl Van den Bergh: Jon, I think it was a pretty seamless [00:17:50] because. He understood that this was a great way [00:17:55] to crystallize the value of what we do. Um, and so yeah, so [00:18:00] that was it. We launched it. We, we have a brand awareness tracker, [00:18:05] um, that we started, I guess probably I've been here coming up on [00:18:10] one and a half years, so about six months before I started. Karl Van den Bergh: So it was great to have this [00:18:15] baseline before we started. Uh, and we, we survey about a [00:18:20] thousand. We have, uh, an agency does this, uh, a thousand security [00:18:25] professionals in different geos where we operate around the globe. [00:18:30] And, um, we had that as a baseline. We put in place these, [00:18:35] this new positioning, we push it out, RSAC, which is a big cybersecurity conference in San [00:18:40] Francisco. And then we, we've seen an incredible [00:18:45] growth, and I wouldn't put it down just to this obviously, but it's this of many things. [00:18:50] In 18, 24 months, now, we just did our last one. [00:18:55] We have grown nearly four x in unaided awareness. Unaided awareness [00:19:00] means, who do you think of when you think of, you know, segmentation, which is unheard of [00:19:05] and I think it's a function of yes, how well the team is, is operating, but it's [00:19:10] also, as I mentioned, that the market is coming to us. Karl Van den Bergh: The market really has kind of hit an [00:19:15] inflection point. So both of those things Karl Van den Bergh: have come together. Jon Miller: How have, how have you been able [00:19:20] to convince the CFO that that [00:19:25] metric matters as much as the pipeline metric does and is therefore worthy [00:19:30] of investment? Karl Van den Bergh: Yes. And in fact, um, and I'll give credit, shout out to my [00:19:35] CFO and CEO. Uh. That is, uh, Anup, [00:19:40] our CFO and Andrew, our CEO, um, I, I wanna say they're pretty enlightened, [00:19:45] uh, uh, C-level executives. Um, I actually went back, [00:19:50] we had closed our a OP, you know, and we have a healthy marketing budget at, [00:19:55] um, at Illumio. Um, and I actually went back and I said at the beginning of the year, I think we [00:20:00] need to double down and do even more on awareness. So this is when we kind [00:20:05] of closed the books and I came back and basically asked for a 50%, five 0% [00:20:10] increase in awareness. Um, because I, I said, I feel like the time is [00:20:15] right for us to double down and it, it, it, you know, we could talk about. [00:20:20] The Mythos thing and what we had already in place, and it was nearly like we had [00:20:25] anticipated that happening. But, um, so how, how, [00:20:30] how do I convince the CFO? Um, it comes down to, and I've used this [00:20:35] concept and written about this concept before, um, uh, a return on [00:20:40] objectives as opposed to ROI return on investment. And, [00:20:45] um, all that means is that yes, ultimately I believe as [00:20:50] you do, Jon, this thing translates to pipeline and to bookings. Uh, [00:20:55] and the, the sellers, you know, always. Appreciate the fact that we're a [00:21:00] known entity when they're going into prospect. Um, but beyond that, how do you [00:21:05] measure the impact? Well, we have shorter term metrics, which is, I will [00:21:10] say, for this particular investment, whether it be, I don't know, um. [00:21:15] Like an ABX, digital ABM to, to our target, um, uh, [00:21:20] our target accounts. Karl Van den Bergh: So we obviously wanna target as much as we can. Uh, the goal [00:21:25] is to raise awareness within a certain persona within those target [00:21:30] accounts. And then we have metrics that tell us, you know, are they engaging? Are they coming to our [00:21:35] website? Are they downloading material? So these are not ultimately [00:21:40] pipeline, they are awareness, but at least we understand the investment we're making. Karl Van den Bergh: And I [00:21:45] want to know how you're doing relative to industry benchmark. Because, you [00:21:50] know, in, in, in isolation it's hard to know is this good or bad? So I always show, here's how [00:21:55] we do, here's how our we're performing relative to, to benchmark, and then [00:22:00] helping understand the strategy for me is explain the strategy of awareness [00:22:05] and the strategy. Karl Van den Bergh: Awareness is, as you know, you said, uh, Jon many times, which is [00:22:10] at any one time you've got 5% that are in market. Great. [00:22:15] Okay, those 95% that don't yet aren't yet thinking about your [00:22:20] problem space. What you want to make sure is that when they do come around to thinking about your [00:22:25] problem space, that you are top of mind. 'cause you wanna be on a shortlist. Because by the [00:22:30] time you actually, 'cause if you're not on the shortlist, you're basically [00:22:35] screwed. if for some reason they get into you, you get into a sales cycle, but you're, you weren't on the [00:22:40] original shortlist, you might be just there for, I dunno, price compression with their [00:22:45] existing, um, highest prospect or, uh, top vendor. [00:22:50] You wanna be on the short list. And so my goal is to [00:22:55] generate, get us on the short list, always top of mind when they're ready, number one. [00:23:00] Number two, I want to generate more segmentation projects. [00:23:05] So hence you talked about earlier, Jon, it's not just about Illumio [00:23:10] Illumio, it's about why do you need segmentation in a post Mythos world? [00:23:15] Why do you need breach containment in a post Mythos world? Nothing to do with illumio, right? I [00:23:20] do generally believe it is absolutely critical to get a breach containment [00:23:25] strategy and platform in place. If it's not illumio, I'm okay with that. [00:23:30] But I, I've a, we've a pretty good shot at being on that short [00:23:35] list just given where we are in the market. Sydney Sloan: how much of, in the last year and a half. So you started [00:23:40] this before the rapid change of buyer research [00:23:45] on LLMs. Um, I I am, I am pretty self-assured that your [00:23:50] personas are on LLMs Sydney Sloan: researching, uh, their breach strategy. So [00:23:55] how have you tackled that as it relates to AEO-GEO and what measurement are you [00:24:00] using? Sydney Sloan: Is that in the same metrics conversation as awareness or are you treating it [00:24:05] differently? Karl Van den Bergh: I'm very, very focused on this one. Uh, but it, it doesn't make it all the way up to, [00:24:10] you know, the executive team or, or the board, but, um, uh, obviously, [00:24:15] um, that is, that is the world that we live in and that's where you want to be showing [00:24:20] up. So we've, we've in invested in a number of tools that help us track [00:24:25] where we show up in terms of people, what are people searching for in the [00:24:30] LLMs and how do you rank, you know, relative to the things that we care about? Um, [00:24:35] and, what we know, at least what I know and, you know, would love to know additional [00:24:40] thoughts here because, you know, definitely still learning is, [00:24:45] um. The importance of, back to what we said about [00:24:50] awareness, uh, the important in order to show up well on LLM, you've gotta be on [00:24:55] credible sites, third party, you know, you gotta be in peer [00:25:00] reviews sites. So the community is an important source. So whether it be, you know, [00:25:05] Reddit or G2, that's I think where you were Sydney, right? Um, [00:25:10] or Gartner Peer Insights or your own community, right? So that's one important source. [00:25:15] The other is, if you are on, are in, you know, credible, [00:25:20] uh, online publications like Forbes or Wall Street Journal or wherever your, you know, [00:25:25] your, uh, your audience hangs out. Um, and then obviously having [00:25:30] very high value content, uh, that's available and credible. All of that [00:25:35] feeds into where you get positioned in the LLM. So the, I I told, [00:25:40] this is a while back, I told the PR team, the AR team, [00:25:45] um, and, the community team. You guys need to all [00:25:50] work really closely with your our AEO-SEO person [00:25:55] um, uh, to make sure that, uh, you guys are all [00:26:00] coordinated because this thing is gonna have a huge impact on how we show up. Sydney Sloan: And I think that, um, 'cause [00:26:05] I do talk about AEO a lot. The, the key. Which you touched on a little bit is [00:26:10] understanding all the questions your personas are asking, not just when they're in the buying cycle. And that's how you build [00:26:15] brand in the LLM era is like, as you, you, you said it, I'm just calling it [00:26:20] back out, Sydney Sloan: for our audiences, I wanna be the answer. I actually don't care if, you [00:26:25] know, if they pick Illumio, I want them to get the right answer. So if you're focused on those questions, [00:26:30] then you become that brand influence. Karl Van den Bergh: and there's some really cool tools out there now. We have like a whole [00:26:35] bunch of tools that, um, that we, we've acquired that now, Sydney Sloan: You can shout em out if you [00:26:40] want. I'm like, we're all in this learning together. This is the, the point of this community and the podcast. Like, what's working [00:26:45] for you? Karl Van den Bergh: the traditional ones we had like SEMrush, uh, which, uh, [00:26:50] you know, we, we've been used as, as being very good tool. There's a new one, Profound. I [00:26:55] think that's awesome. That tool, right? It's at least Karl Van den Bergh: it's, it's it Sydney Sloan: Yeah, that's, it. Shows you all your [00:27:00] prompt citation, source, share of Sydney Sloan: answer, Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah. And then it generates content for you. It shows where [00:27:05] you're relative to your competitors. Karl Van den Bergh: So, uh, Sydney Sloan: They're a leader on G2. So you're, you picked the [00:27:10] right one. Yeah, Karl Van den Bergh: Oh, okay. All right. There. You're team did a good job. I had nothing to do with the pick of it. They said, [00:27:15] here we have this new tool. I said, awesome. Show me Karl Van den Bergh: how it works. And I was like, wow, this is really [00:27:20] cool. Yeah. Jon Miller: Illumio often picks, uh, good tools. I know this. [00:27:25] Um, Karl Van den Bergh: biased, Jon, I think. Yeah. Jon Miller: um, [00:27:30] before we, before we wrap up, I think, you know, I know from our, from our prior conversations [00:27:35] that another one of the changes you've brought to the team is sort of a move towards account based metrics [00:27:40] and, and really trying to evolve your marketing that way. Jon Miller: Any lessons learned from that? Karl Van den Bergh: [00:27:45] I, Jon, I, we've talked for some time about this one. [00:27:50] This one is super important, but boy is it hard. Uh, and simply because [00:27:55] our whole systems, tools, [00:28:00] methodology, mindset has been, you know, lead based for so long and like trying to [00:28:05] move to true account based marketing. Um, [00:28:10] is, is a long, long journey. Um. I think the bits that [00:28:15] we, the bit, the bits that, um, that I think we've gotten right [00:28:20] and have been very effective is, is the account-based tiering model. Um, [00:28:25] my last company, we built it with our in-house data scientists and ml, [00:28:30] um, uh, this, this, this go round. We've, we've [00:28:35] largely derived it worked up with six sense to build it. Um, [00:28:40] but the, the goal is always the same is using the data. To determine, you know, [00:28:45] what are the accounts that the sales team should be focused on. And, um, that [00:28:50] has been super effective in that we are religious about this, which is I [00:28:55] will. Look, we'll look to the data. We'll tier the accounts and we [00:29:00] use, you know, all dimensions from, uh, ideal customer profile to intent [00:29:05] to engagement, right? Mix all those together. Um, and we have [00:29:10] systematically seen that, you know, the tier one or [00:29:15] tier top tier. Outperform in terms of conversion to bookings, [00:29:20] conversion to opportunities, deal size, and so I've been absolutely [00:29:25] religious about we are not going to fund, we're, we're like [00:29:30] marketing. We're gonna focus on these tiers. And I want, I need sales [00:29:35] and partners, everyone to be aligned on the same accounts because [00:29:40] otherwise we're just, there's no point in marketing spending money on an account that sales is not gonna be focused on [00:29:45] right now. There could be accounts outside of what we're focused on, but set. I need 70% [00:29:50] plus overlap between the three Go-To-Market functions, and that has been very, very effective. [00:29:55] That piece. Yes. What I don't have yet, and Jon, I'm looking to you [00:30:00] to fix this. Uh, what I don't have yet is being able to, within [00:30:05] accounts, identify the buying groups easily. We, [00:30:10] we've got a kind of way that we are doing it now, uh, with, um, [00:30:15] you know, we have a methodology with six sense to, we kind of do, it's a little [00:30:20] bit manual, but what I want is I want to be able to see. Like within one [00:30:25] account, a lot of our customers are large. We have maybe four buying groups. There are different [00:30:30] stages. I wanna color code them different. I want different tactics applied to different buying groups. [00:30:35] That's the Nirvana that I'm looking for, and we're not quite there yet. Jon Miller: It's hard to, it's hard to [00:30:40] get there with the legacy technology. No doubt about Karl Van den Bergh: Very hard. Yeah. Jon Miller: Yeah. So let's, uh, let, let's [00:30:45] wrap up with some fun facts. Sydney Sloan: yeah, so we, we, you know, like this is [00:30:50] hard these days, you know, like our jobs have Sydney Sloan: not gotten Sydney Sloan: easier. They definitely have [00:30:55] gotten Karl Van den Bergh: I love my job, by the way. I, it's, I think it, it's, I, I think it's, [00:31:00] it can be the worst job in the world and it can be the best job in the Sydney Sloan: Okay. So, uh, we [00:31:05] like to end with fun inspiring questions and I would love for you, like [00:31:10] we talk about, like what do you do outside of work, but even, I wanna take that one step further with you. It's like, where do you [00:31:15] find your inspiration Sydney Sloan: as well? You have such a interesting, diverse kind of [00:31:20] background, so not just your five to nine, but like, what, what is, where is the inspiration [00:31:25] also where you Sydney Sloan: tap into. Karl Van den Bergh: Yeah. Look, I, I, goodness, [00:31:30] I'd say at heart I'm a philosopher. That's probably so [00:31:35] one thing I, it's not on my resume, but I was. Uh, a monk [00:31:40] for five years. Karl Van den Bergh: So that was, that was part of my, [00:31:45] my trip in Italy. Uh, I kind of went down that path, which is [00:31:50] fantastic. I was part of the Catholic church and I was, I was a monk. Um, [00:31:55] and so I I said, I like, I like to think deeply. [00:32:00] I love beauty in all its forms, you know, whether it be art. I have lots of art in my house. I [00:32:05] love amazing food. I love to travel. Um, I, I, [00:32:10] I, I told you I'm kind of a lifelong learner [00:32:15] and, um, my inspiration comes from. [00:32:20] Yeah, just, just finding, uh, the, [00:32:25] and working on happiness. Uh, uh, finding joy in life. I [00:32:30] wasn't always, uh, as, as happy, I must say, very, [00:32:35] uh, doing very well today, but I wasn't always this way. One of the side effects of [00:32:40] having, uh, you know, doing a lot of thinking is you can sometimes work yourself, [00:32:45] work yourself into, into a bit of a mess, which, which I did quite, uh, [00:32:50] successfully when I was younger. But fortunately, I've kind of, uh, figured things out. [00:32:55] Um, so yeah, I, I, I get inspired. I, I have now also a [00:33:00] 4-year-old and she definitely inspires me every day. Uh, and, [00:33:05] uh, just seeing her quotes graduate from preschool yesterday, it was [00:33:10] hilarious. But they did ion for, from preschool, so lots of different places.[00:33:15] Karl Van den Bergh: Sydney, I guess, uh. Sydney Sloan: Well, I, it, it's, you know, the childhood [00:33:20] joy maybe is connecting to the joy that you're also feeling as, as being a parent as well. And you can [00:33:25] like tap into that and just look at this, the joy from the simplest, uh, and most pure. Pure [00:33:30] part, which is our children. Um, the the last thing that we like to, to give you the opportunity to [00:33:35] do is share gratitude. Sydney Sloan: They, we don't get here on our own. Um, and so if you wanted [00:33:40] to, uh, shout out, uh, a couple folks that have helped you along the way, we'll we'll be sure to [00:33:45] mention that in the Sydney Sloan: notes. Yeah. Karl Van den Bergh: I'll start with my dad. He's no longer with us, but [00:33:50] definitely an inspiration. Tough man. When I was growing up, I kind of left Ireland apart to get [00:33:55] away from him. We became very close friends over the last 10 years. Uh, he was [00:34:00] alive and, um, he, uh, uh, he was an [00:34:05] entrepreneur, obviously came from a different country, uh, as we talked about, and, um, [00:34:10] was very, very, uh kind of driven, [00:34:15] high integrity, uh, and very, very, uh, [00:34:20] wise at, at the end of his life, man. So, definitely huge influence. Um, in terms [00:34:25] of bosses, I guess I'll put a boss on there. Uh, I, [00:34:30] I, my, uh, uh, Brian Gentile, who is the CEO [00:34:35] of Jaspersoft, where, where I was, uh, for a while, fantastic [00:34:40] individual, great human being. Karl Van den Bergh: He got me really focused on. [00:34:45] Organizational and the importance of people and management and Patrick Lencioni's [00:34:50] kind of books. Um, and, uh, he was, he was fantastic. [00:34:55] And then I, I have to do a shout out to my current team. I think we [00:35:00] just had our QBR yesterday. This team is on fire and so I, I'll [00:35:05] name my leaders 'cause they, they listen to these podcasts sometimes. Uh, Ryan Ragu [00:35:10] and Rick. Uh, the three Rs, uh, um, uh, [00:35:15] are doing a fantastic job. Sydney Sloan: Excellent. Excellent. Well, uh, this has been a [00:35:20] power packed podcast. I will say, um, we covered a lot of ground and [00:35:25] it touches a lot on the research and findings, but for me, what I took away here [00:35:30] in in your playbook as you, as you mentioned, is the first, the first thing that we need to [00:35:35] do to be strategic CMOs is to speak in the language that your board and leadership understands. Sydney Sloan: [00:35:40] So starting with pipeline ROI and bookings and not really talking about the [00:35:45] metrics that marketing manages around top of the funnel and some of things that could be perceived as vanity. [00:35:50] We, we know it's important, but, um, but we can keep that amongst ourselves. Um, I [00:35:55] liked, and I haven't heard a lot of, um, you know, you were talking about [00:36:00] predictability, so you talk about your target plus over assignment. Sydney Sloan: I don't think a lot of CMOs [00:36:05] actually play the same way sales does. And actually over assigning the quotas with our pipeline [00:36:10] numbers as well, and, and having that forecast and managing it like sales does to [00:36:15] get the predictability, which ultimately gets the trust. Uh, and so [00:36:20] once you have that and you're predictable, then you can work on the bigger picture. Sydney Sloan: Things like the story awareness and brand [00:36:25] building, which you've done a phenomenal job of doing highlighting. You went back after the fact [00:36:30] and asked for 50% more. And delivered four x growth on [00:36:35] your awareness, which you track, um, on. Just awesome. Just wow. 'cause people [00:36:40] need to listen to that. And then the last thing I took away is this idea of return on objective [00:36:45] versus return on investment. And, you know, how do you make sure that you're a known entity? [00:36:50] That you have engagement metrics and you're tracking those against industry benchmarks to show the [00:36:55] proof of the value of that investment, which the objective is to be known. [00:37:00] So when your salespeople engage with an account, they already know who Illumio is. Sydney Sloan: And that's, that's the job [00:37:05] of our teams as marketing teams. So I just wanna thank you for those [00:37:10] amazing tidbits, uh, and getting to know you too as a Sydney Sloan: person. It was joyful. Karl Van den Bergh: Great to meet [00:37:15] you Sydney. And uh, great to reconnect Jon as always. And. [00:37:20] Um, yeah, so happy to do this any other time. I know you got lots of, uh, guests I'm [00:37:25] sure lining up. But, uh, and I'm, I, I look forward to continuing this important mission [00:37:30] of helping B2B CMOs and, and forgotten [00:37:35] population sometimes. Karl Van den Bergh: So I'm glad we're putting a, Karl Van den Bergh: uh, something [00:37:40] together to help. Sydney Sloan: Awesome. Thank you. Well, if you like what you heard today, please make sure that [00:37:45] you, uh, come over to the b2b CMO project.com. You can [00:37:50] find our research, our podcasts, more like these conversations with Karl. Um, [00:37:55] and, uh, get involved in the community. If you're an enterprise, B2B CMO, we want you to be [00:38:00] involved. Sydney Sloan: We wanna learn together, share together, and, uh, this is our mission. So [00:38:05] thanks everybody. Have a fantastic day. Thanks for listening to the [00:38:10] B2B CMO podcast. Head on over to b2b CMO project.com for [00:38:15] more episodes, plus the latest research and framework CMOs need, not [00:38:20] just to survive but actually thrive as AI in the new playbook reshape how we Go-To-Market. [00:38:25] And if this episode sparks something for you, please follow the show. 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