S2E1: Let's talk about making dating great... again!

This is season two, episode one. Thank you for being so patient as you waited for season two to come out, but we did it. You might not have thought there was gonna be a season two. I didn't. And then I talked him into it. Will you not? We're gonna stick with a lot of doctrine if we can. Um give you it give you as much real help as we can and not just a bunch of opinions, right? So so we're doing our research week to week.

Yeah. So a lot of these questions have come from you folks. So a little Yeah, I would say if you

And go back and listen to those twenty-three episodes. Uh not only will it give you insight into the doctrine of dating, but also all of these basics of attraction, all of the research that we talk about, all of the quotes. We we we kind of have planned this not to be a this week, this week, you know, just focus on coming for one week, but really that this is kind of a linear thing. Start at the beginning, go through season one and then you can pop in

For you, you can listen to that week's episode. But kind of all of season one lays a groundwork. And if you're a young adult, you could potentially So maybe we'll have to talk about that in another episode. Absolutely. Um, so so season two will be a little bit more if everything that you thought was Life happens or dating didn't happen. Dating didn't happen. You're right. So that's what that's what we're gonna be talking about. So today

Yeah, especially o well some of the so you know, we've been getting feedback from season one. Lots of people have emailed us on our email link there. What is our email link again? It's the Artofdating Podcast at gmail.com. The Art of Dating. So we've got a received a lot of emails and certainly the

Right, dating is miserable. This has not been a good experience. So we've we've received a lot of feedback in terms of can you talk about how to make dating enjoyable? We were gonna call this episode making dating great again. We wanted to stay totally away from that. So we're gonna we're we'll we'll come up with some good phrase like making data.

Before we get completely started into the episode, I have one of my dearest friends with me. Her name is Rachel the Mann. Hello. worked together, lived together as roommates and have stayed in contact, I guess. Yeah. Good friends. So tell This is a great place for that. Which is exciting.

So you may wonder why we have a married person on an episode about making dating great. Yeah. But we figured we'd bring in an expert, somebody who made dating great and actually dated great and then got married, right? So so we've got another So anyway, well Ryan, what do you got for us today? Well actually why don't you start could you just read a couple for us, Kayla? Read a couple of these These are some of the concerns we're hearing.

So there was um different expectations or there's pressure to date and to marry or people take dating way too serious. natural it feels or I'm content with the friends that I have. Why do I need to date? Or fear You know, you go on these dates and all of a sudden you have to get married because you've gone on one or two dates or just like you need to be dating.

dating culture that we have uh maybe yeah just looking down through the yeah just looking down through the list as you have you as you have read through those very interesting because I think we You know, and and I have read through all these several times and gone, okay, it it seems like there's maybe first pressure. A lot of people. pressure to date, I feel pressure on dates. I feel, you know, from beginning to end, it's just this pressurized environment. And I don't

I think probably the second most common thing that we've been hearing is the expectations. And and there was a whole What do they mean when they say that And then the third one that we heard a lot about and it's funny'cause I I have a a student who's just an exceptional

said, Hey, you should come on our podcast and he says, When you do one about rejection, let me know'cause I'm an expert in it. I told him I'd mention him, not by name. But when we do our rejection one that's we're gonna do a whole We'll we'll bring him on and let him tell some of his funny lines.

So it seems like they break down into those three really pressure, expectations, and rejection. And so I thought for this We would just take a a little bit of time with with each one of those, maybe not go all the way through them because each one of these depths. But just talking about what can we do surface level and at least get some thoughts generated on what can we do to make dating enjoyable? It it should

Anxious, I I wish I didn't have to do it. And you go, Wow. So what about it is miserable. I mean, you two have been.

Let's start with pressure. What what do they mean when a young adult says there's so much pressure surrounding dating that it is not enjoyable for me? Grandparents always ask, So do you have a boyfriend? So yeah, and I'm failing because I'm not doing this thing that everyone wants. Kayla, do you agree with that?

Maybe you didn't say Rachel. You didn't say the most pressure. But d definitely an aspect. Definitely an aspect. I would say for me personally, that's not super the case. My parents are super supportive of they've never Of you not dating? Supportive, Ryan. Supportive of where So maybe there's an element of culture about that. Yeah, I think that's a good thing. I hadn't really thought that before, but when you think for for a lot of people in our

All three of us are, right? Yes. Um in our religion, there is an element of you should be married, right? Which is important. Yeah, that marriage is this great thing. And when all of a sudden everybody that you live with got married and you didn't, and what Sure.

Especially when you have a roommate that you go, they I never thought that they would find someone to marry, right? Or you go, Oh man, they found they found their perfect match. Or you know, they were they were like there was one person in a million and they found them and it was this perfect match.

for them and yeah and then you start going okay so everyone else is marriageable but I'm not I have seen I have had so many people sit in these chairs where you where you two are sitting. Let's say Everyone I know it's very I mean if two of your ten friends.

The first thing out of your mouth is, everyone's getting married. If you have 50 friends and one of them is pregnant, and then a second one gets pregnant, the first thing you say is, Everyone's pregnant but me. Right? You suddenly feel that way. So some of it is Let's just between the three of us spend just a little bit more time because I don't know anybody coming But I mean even if you're eighteen and you just grab The people don't say, How's your health? Yeah, do you have a book?

Do you have a girlfriend? Who's your girlfriend? Why and then if you say I don't, they don't go uh the there's no good follow-up to that. Like I didn't think you would. What is what's the follow-up line to do you have a girlfriend? And you say no. like oh it's okay it'll happen it's okay it'll happen or yeah I didn't think you would or or not surprised.

Keep trying or hang in there. There's someone for everyone. Like you are the everyone. I've heard that before, right? And you start going, there is no good follow-up line to that. We ought to just teach older people. Not to ask that. Ask, I don't know, about your education, your job. There's so many things literally you can ask we ought to ask their mom that question. Are they dating? No. Because if you're really wanting to know. So th there is a lot of family pressure.

Um why do you think they ask that? I mean, is it because they're just so bored or why does your family care so much? Family, friends, bishop, whoever it is. Why do they care? Do you know what I mean? I mean uh maybe even your dating life is more personal than your banking like, Well, I got twelve thousand like good for you you know, or I have nothing, like yeah no hang in, there's some m there's some money for everyone, right? Or whatever.

Maybe school is not the next step for everyone, but but marriage should be your next step, right? Even if you're not going to school you could be dating. Yeah, you could be dating. That should always For sure.

Yeah, because you should be dating. Because either they're gonna get a positive answer or they can give you a little lecture right there, right? So and I wonder I'm I honestly I've just been thinking through I probably think it's because like especially evidence with God and like the one covenant that maybe that they're missing is being sealed Sounds like well.

Going, you know, you never ask that to anybody but you go, What And for most people and and and to be kind to our family members, right?'Cause I'm doing this. Nephew in the hall here at the Institute. That was the thing I asked him, thinking we were going to become. Oh there's nothing like undercutting your older sibling, right, by getting engaged before.

But you you s you think about this and you go, Why is it that we ask that? I think a lot of it does have to do with both of your of your responses. One was there's this culture for us. And another one is And a lot of that comes from we have a belief that that's the next step. The that the next thing you do to become more godlike, and that that's

is is to get married. I mean you think of uh we used this quote uh some time ago. I'm trying to think I don't even know what episode it was, but we had this quote by President um Iring where he says It's in the Institute Marriage Student Manual page. Life here is the schoolroom in which we prepare for family life there. So living in a family here, having a family here is how you prepare to be a family eternally. Then I'm gonna back

Quote, and to give us the opportunity for family life there was and is the purpose of creation. So really our doctrine says the next thing you do is get married because marriage For Godhood, right? For for a godly life in the next world. And so it really does become this progressive. No, how's that going? But it it creates Well if if that's why I'm on Earth, if I'm not doing it in some way.

About that, before we started the episode, that we've we've kind of put this time frame on it. If I'm not doing it just according to what everyone else thinks I should, there's this. For the for the life to come, right? I'm not preparing myself for the life to come. So Okay.

So okay, so let's address that exact thing. Let's say let's talk about going from pressure to excitement. Because if it really is, uh you know, I I love this quote by President. You're like, oh, he really does love that quote because he uses it all the time. President Faust said this was in uh the enzyme November 1977. So he marriage and parenthood can exceed a thousand times any other happiness. And you go, okay, so so all of this then should be exciting, right? You get the one from press.

Marriage can be a more exultant ecstasy than the humanity. And that is within the reach of every couple, every person. You can have, you know, but we don't talk about it sometimes like that. But marriage can be this more exultant exactly. How do we then take it from pressure to the idea of these one point? We were just chatting a little bit before and saying why when you're packing to go to Disney? I mean there's a little pressure. If you have six kids like we did, it's a ton of press

Um but but why If you're going for the first time ever. Yes. You you've heard how fun it is and just the it's a lot of work. You know, people say well dating's work. Packing is work. Packing up for a vacation and driving 10 hours, that's work, you know, from where we are, 10 hours, that's work. Why isn't it pressure? Because you you go it's going I wonder if some of this pressure becomes the focus of it. That I'm dating to a

Or I'm dating because I've been commanded to date. Or I'm dating because I don't want to be a loser. The only one in my apartment. Or uh anybody in Utah Valley that's not dating, right? Apparently I'm the only one. Apparently I'm the only one, yeah.

Somehow we have focused in on those ideas and not it should be really awesome. It should it should be this really great experience. And so when you think of dating, it's Disneyland and like I've or even if you've been before, oh I can't wait to ride the matter horn or I can't you know I'm gonna get a turkey leg or I you know I can't wait to get the corn on the cob as you think through all those things you

And I I wonder if we need to take some of the pressure off of am I measuring up to my roommate Are you dating somebody and you're able to say, no, but I am so excited to. That would shut her up right there. She's like, good for you. I'm raising your allowance, right?

Um but there would be that there would be that idea of Oh good for a year like no but I man I'm so excited too I can't wait to be in a relationship. If we had that feeling about it, that would take a I I really want to, really, you know, looking forward to it and and trying hard to and and I'm excited. So that would be my first recommendation. Yeah. If if you're worried about

And start fo focusing on the this is gonna be such a great thing. Even the dating part is such a great thing. Yeah. Right? Even going on dates, people say, well date Going rock climbing. Or snowboarding. Rachel, you know, you probably have dates that you you know for us it was going four wheeling. Angie and I, we four wheeling. You know, either in a Jeep my an old Jeep my dad had or on a four wheeler or did you have something? Oh, good luck. Which I was like we had

Okay. And maybe that's where we should go to the next one because we don't I guess I'm just thinking about this like what actually is And awkward, you know, you sit there and like, Oh, but we didn't communicate at all. Well at least you ate your dinner, right? Hopefully you got a dinner out of it. like getting to that first date. You know, or So if I was listening to this episode, I'm wondering.

I I'm saying to myself, okay, at least I understand where the pressure's coming from. Right? That a lot of family pressure because they believe that it's the next step to happiness. And so they want you to have it. Or cultural pressure because everybody else. Or even doctrinal pressure of the Lord saying, I want you to meet and marry and right multiple Section one hundred two, you know, all of the things that we learn in there. And you go, there is a lot of what could be

It has to be the way that you look at it. Instead of saying all of these people expect me to get married, everyone's putting pressure on me to get married, everyone's putting pressure on me to date. And your mental switch has to be. Kayla and I both did door to door sales. Same thing in dating. Like every time it doesn't work out, you're one step closer. They're out of there. Yes, that's good. I like

Okay. So let let's just switch there. So number one was going to be pressure. I think we handled that pretty well. And and it it really has to come from inside you. But you have to have the knowledge, the vision to say, I under From my family, from everything. I understand that. And I'm gonna make that mental adjustment to say I'm just excited to go out and and date. When you're fifteen, you're like, I can't wait till I'm sixteen, so I can go out on a date. We have to continue.

So what's the difference between the pressure and expectations? Reading through the pressure. I think this kind of is a been illuminated to me. The expectations aren't about are you dating? The expectations come to the date itself. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. That that's maybe The expectation I think is am I going to marry this person? I mean if you listen to episode or to season one of our podcast, you think, oh it's a And becoming the most database.

Definitely say stop making it about them and start making it about you. Right. So if you listen to season one, a lot of it is about becoming the most datable person. But I think the expectation issue comes in when you Yes, yes. Oh decision. We're gonna go on a date, and the expectation is are we gonna go on a second date? I can't tell you how many people I hear.

And they're like, I wonder if this will lead to a second the the big worry isn't will I have a good time tonight? The big worry is will this lead to a second date, right? Will this lead to a relationship? I was just in a meeting. And he they were talking about it. They're not dating apps.

Meeting apps. I loved that. I was like, oh, I'm gonna use that from now on. I actually said, can I quote you on that? Um, and so here I have. But I love the idea of thinking they're meeting apps, and first dates are meeting. They're not expectation opportunities. They're not let's, you know, let's measure our compatibility to see if we're going to get married. It's a chance to go out and have fun and meet the person.

It was great. And our first time meeting really was like meeting. It was so casual. I could talk to him again. And there you go. And it's funny because uh you you even said it in there, the first we met on Mutual. Yeah. Right? And that and it's okay, I'm I'm not promoting dating apps in case anybody's mom is listening on here. I've had a couple moms actually talk to me.

Um not that we're promoting or or or not promoting. We I'm not against them or for'em, but I'm a I'm in favor of meeting people. Right? Absolutely. What whatever method you can use that's safe to meet somebody in a safe that you go, how are you going to find somebody that you're compatible with if you haven't met people? And I heard I heard a young man recently say, I'm not sure I want to be in.

And I thought, oh, that's kinda mature. Especially f you know, for a a young man to go, she's the only girl I've known, and so maybe I need to meet her. feel the same way, right? That uh maybe I should be looking and saying, and you go, this is a mature mindset where you're thinking, I want to make sure that I've met Now some of you who maybe didn't listen to episode or season one, I keep saying episode one. Season one. We have a lot of season one.

October session or October two thousand eleven previously. Find someone. That was his dating advice to the young men. And he said, Realize that you can't anticipate every challenge, every problem, but if you're resourceful, you can make it work, you know. And but the first part of that is a direct quote. Find some. And so the expectation of the first date is meeting. And I think if people walked into it that way, that the the whole fear and the whole And that is the example.

Uh now I've heard someone say, It's not like I want to marry you and I go, Well, don't don't say that or it's not like I'm dating to find a spouse. Yes, you are. You actually are, right? That is the purpose. That is the purpose. But that doesn't mean it's not like I'm expecting to marry you Date or I want to measure our marriage ability after one date. You go, let's meet. And after meeting and having a good time, many golfers

Actually, the first day I went on with my wife. After a good time, many mini golfing at Cherry Hill. Let's see if both of us want to get to know each other better. But we need to start looking at these asking outs, you know, and I think men and women e That you know that like almost in me, oh no. Oh no, like I'm attached to this now for more than a couple dates. Yeah. Um Go home and go, Okay, cool. Did we were

Sternberg's Triangle of Love, which we beat to death in season one. Oh, yeah. Right? If you think of that, one of the three uh pinnacles is. And if you think we're going on the first date to create a friendship, you will If you think we're going on the first date to create right, so for those who didn't listen, now I'm really drilling in that everyone has to listen to season one. Uh there's there's a little triangle, and on the left bottom corner it says friendship, and on the right

And on the top it says commitment. If you think you're going on a first date and commitment is your goal, there's You're going on a first date and passion is your goal. Shame on you. I wasn't sure what to say right there. That's your first goal. Uh you you need to talk to to somebody else. You talk to Ro you need to talk to Ryan again, but you need to talk to somebody. You need to come in here and I'll I'll teach you a thing or two. Um shouldn't shouldn't be the passion as your goal.

You know, NYMOs they're not of the Um if you're going on a first date and friendship is your goal, that's brilliant. Because who's afraid of going out to make a friend? Because after you've made a first date friendship, you've This we should just be friends. Or or we we will be great friends. Even not just just friends, but we would be great friends. Or you know I felt a little

Here on this date, a very small spark, right? I felt a little spark of passion. We ought to go out and see if if maybe another corner of our triangle, another angle Another angle of uh angle of our triangle has some potential in it, yeah. And that commitment, if if you've listened to those uh different episodes, as you build. then it those two ignite the commitment. It's not like commitment

You should have a great friendship going and know that we are physically interested in each other. And as those two things grow and those flames begin to burn, then they strike a matchup there on that, Kenley. Would you like to go on a first date friendship? A friendship first date. You know, that whole idea of what we're trying to do because what one of the three things you do in dating.

So, what's wrong with going on a first date to build a friendship and see if you would even be compatible as friends? And if you go, wow, uh often I I know. That there was a moment where you couldn't And you go there and all of a sudden you go, Oh, we got the friendship thing down, right? And I think you also probably have dated we all three of us have dated someone that you go, We just in terms of even friendship, it was like clumsy.

And we didn't have enough to talk about, we didn't have enough in common, didn't make either And all of a sudden you go, Oh so we're we're not this is not gonna go anywhere beyond. make you feel. Maybe we ought to move to our number three one, right? The next so so there we go. We've got pressure. That I think we handled that pretty well. You've got expectations. Let's let's release the the anxiety over First day.

Third uh the third one was rejected. And like my friend said, I'm an expert in that. And just about every single person that I know could actually say that. And here's some Because he made a statement. I'm like, I almost jumped out of my seat and said, We totally said that on an episode. He said, You know, almost every relationship. Exactly what we've been teaching. Yeah. That only one relationship will work out for you.

Uh I remember in class one day, Kayla, you were actually in this class, and I said, Would you talk to the person next to you? And everyone's like, I haven't had a failed relationship. And I said, are you married? No. Have you ever liked somebody? Yes. Then you've had a failed relationship, right? If you've ever liked somebody, even if you go, well, we didn't even get into relationships.

I like them, they didn't like me back. Most relationships will not work out. All you have to do is get one to work out, and then you marry that person, right? And so, so how can you feel good? Like I just it like it says like is there something wrong with me?

Yeah, I I have written on my notepad for this episode, uh rejection is not a measurement of self worth. Because most people will be rejected d uh dozens of times. And what it actually means is uh let's go back to President Monson's quote. You know, we're looking for the person that we're most And you go, Well there's there's sixteen billion people out there my age that I could date then. I'll never g you know, suddenly FOMO takes over your life and you go, let's look for the person that we could

And in President Monson's statement, find someone with whom you can be compatible. He doesn't say, you know, you have to travel the seven seas. And when you find a person, you go, Wow, we are really compatible, then you you're developing the friendship, you're developing the passion, and that commitment will be ignited. But everyone And I would love to write every one of these people back that wrote us in. This was a huge one for us, and say, I wonder if you'd consider changing.

I've dated a lot of people that I found I wasn't compatible with in terms Not I was rejected, but yeah, we weren't really compatible to be a married couple. We're we're still friends or we still hang out, we still rock climb together. We weren't compatible to be And that's a different idea. And and somebody was saying to me, Oh, this and that, and I said, you know, having even met a lot of the church leadership, I don't think you could shuffle up those

Even though they're all the most saintly men and women that I've met, I I I think boy those two, that you know, that sister leader and her husband or that male leader and her his wife, those two are a great couple. You can see them. Being righteous does not make you compatible with everybody else. Right. So it's it's a little

That's what compatibility is about. It's not directly tied to righteousness. I maybe I need to add a little caveat here. If everybody you date, if ten people you've dated That that may be a little flag, you know, I love you. Don't date serial killers. Because nobody on this that's listening to this is a serial killer, right? So I always feel like I could use that as an example. If you know if everyone is saying the same thing, you may want to check your

That you go, oh, everyone keeps mentioning this. Maybe that's something I need to tweak about my personality to make me a little more. Rachel, can I ask you, since you've had so much patience sitting here pregnant, right? I know sitting down sitting down is not a favorite there. Um where did you lock

Lights and candles didn't uh fireworks up. I wasn't like, yes, I'm gonna marry that man. No, that didn't happen. So it was a friendship first date. Yes, it really was very casual. saw that values aligned, that was a huge thing for me. I was like we have similar goals. Yeah, and that's nice. I I had a young man say to me one time, How many dates should I go on before I you know, before I stop giving

If there was any attraction to them at all that it that made you want to go on a first date, I would go on more than one. Unless there was some huge. Unless there was some huge red flag because really it can be a And you know, and just to throw a plug in for once again Elder Bednar who I love says, Make it about you. And you could even make yourself more compatible by working on all your good qualities. A person who is very kind is very compatible. No guy or girl out there that

Right. It's more of the experience where they say, Oh I came home and they were a little You know, and so if you work on some of these general characters of Christ, you'll find you've got to be a very good thing. That's good. But but even what you're looking for in terms of career, I heard you say that you know your husband.

That's something that I think can be a compatibility issue. Oh, definitely. I I was when I was uh I was dating a girl shortly after my mission and I mentioned And her sheer comment to that made me go, There's no way we won't.

Uh not that I had to be an a uh brain uh surgeon to figure this out when she said I would hate to be married to a seminary teacher. When she said that, I'm like uh that is that a sign? I'm not sure but But I knew what she meant and then she's like, Oh, you know, I I just would hate to always have to worry about money and I thought, I'm gonna have to find somebody who that's not going to be that big a deal to to So I think sometimes it comes up.

And and finding that you're not compatible does not make you bad. And even if you go, I have not been compatible, now I'm going to give you my very Uh I've had lunch. Just because of the way I it's been in the music world, you know, it's like after all these great talks, they have lunch and they always invite the music guy, even though he didn't do

And uh the first time I had lunch sitting next to Matt Holland, I realized just how dumb I am. He is the most brilliant there's no way he's ever gonna listen to this, so I'm pretty safe. Um Elder Holland. But the first time I had lunch with him, I went, this is the most brilliant person I've ever like interacted with. He was, you know, he was sharp and and well spoken. And I I walked away going, I I have Yeah. I'm gonna make my life count and and that's Then he came to speak to me.

He told his story about getting married. And you may or may not know this, but he did not get married until later. So he was one of those, you know, cracking the thirty, and he's like, Can and he told the story. about getting married said you think it's bad to be thirty and you

in the regular world, imagine being Jeff elder Jeffrey Holland's son and approaching thirty and not being married. He said, It's like having plastered on the newspapers, disappointment to the Holland family. That was the phrase he used. And I thought Probably the sharpest person I've ever personally talked with and spent an hour with. It took him until a little bit later. And if you And I go, That does make sense actually. That that they were very

that for those two to f lock in and go, okay, that is what I'm looking for. It doesn't surprise me. So if you go, well I've just been pushing, I must not be any good, I think. That may have nothing to do with how good or how valuable you are, because he was one of those later in life marriages. Yeah, I I guess We were both really. And that's a great idea.

And I'm just chomping at the bit, right, for it. And then take those expectations and turn them. Preparing for this wonderful experience. I I'm gonna make my first dates, friendship opportunities. I'm gonna get out and meet people. And and I'm not expecting this to lead to marriage. Even if you go on a whole bunch of

He eventually said, I committed I was gonna eat a I think he said a dinner. I was gonna eat dinner with somebody, you know, with a different woman until I finally got married. He's like, I will not eat alone. And either you as a man you starve or you get married at that point, right? And then, you know, don't don't uh equate rejection with a measurement of self worth. Turn that to saying, Hey.

Thanks everyone for listening. Wow, you made it all the way through uh season two, episode one. More to come. Yes, this is actually a We tried this month before. We pushed stop after 45 minutes and went, that was terrible. There's no way we're gonna release that. So so thanks Rachel for joining us. Of course. And it's nice to have a dating expert who uh absolutely who has actually seen

Please. Just let it be fun. I like that. I think that yeah, it needs to be way more fun than sometimes we give it. Alright, we'll see you next week on episode two. Episode two coming your way.