Well, hey, I really appreciate you being here.
Of course..
So you obviously have such an incredible background, especially for being, and I'm just gonna say it, so young. So I kind of wanted to start there. One of the things I read about your background is that when you were 12, you had 10,000 followers to a AOL accounts for the Backstreet Boys.
Yeah, I would say like today's version of that would be if I had a tick tock about an artist, or a Twitter slash x, or Instagram account that was dedicated to an artist, but we didn't have that at that time. So the way that a lot of younger people who were big fans and like digital showed their appreciation for the artists they love was by basically
making a newsletter, we all called them zine. So I had a zine that I ran, and would curate several times a week and send it out to you know, other people in the fandom who had subscribed. And it was, it was a really good like, sort of business learning experience for me, because I learned a lot about the first thing you learned about when you run an
email list is about rules and regulations around spam. So in order for me to be able to send that amount of emails out at once, because at this time, we didn't have things like MailChimp, and rules to send email us. So you would send it from AOL, from the email account. And so I had to get apply and like be on this, you know, be on a whitelist to be
allowed to do that. So I learned a lot about the rules of spam and the internet at an early age because of that, but I'm really grateful for that experience.
Okay, so I gotta put this in perspective, you're 12 What is that seventh grade?
Yeah, sixth, seventh grade is like when I really really liked the Backstreet Boys, but beginning of American Middle School.
That's a legit thing to like. When I was 12 years old, I was worried about making sure I had enough hairspray for my bangs, got braces in the seventh grade, who liked who. Where did this come from? Just talk to me about that.
I think that I get a lot of actually this interest in technology from my grandfather, I lived with my grandparents growing up. And he was always a very curious person about not just about technology, but about everything. So he always had the new gadgets, kind of like nerdy, but also like really adorable. But as I've gotten older, I realized how
awesome of a quality that that isn't him. So he always had like computers before everyone else said, you know, like a laptop that, you know, will, you know, kind of more similar to what we have today. And we had AOL before a lot of other people. And I think that his curiosity kind of sparked that curiosity in me as well and like wanting to, to learn about that sort of
stuff. So I think a little bit of it came from there. But also, I think a lot of it came from the friend group that I was in not that they are all building websites, but we all really
enjoyed pop culture. We liked going to concerts together. So doing this stuff was a part of my social life and some of the stuff I was creating and posting online and showing my dedication for the Backstreet Boys was also like a part of my friend group, we all really liked music and watching TRL and liked watching VHS tapes of concerts and like going to concerts when they came
into town. So I think that my friends having you know, maybe not the exact interest in terms of like internet marketing, but in terms of being interested in pop culture in general made me comfortable really like being my true full self in that activity of mine.
So do you have any idea how this internet marketing was gonna just explode? When was your first like, Hey, I'm on the cusp of making some major history?
I don't know if I ever like envisioned myself, you know, being a part of that trend coming to life. I think I always just saw it for what it was going to be as soon as I see it.
As soon as I like hold a tool in my hands. I know what it's going to become when I saw musically for the First time I knew what it would become today I didn't need I didn't know it'd be called tick tock but I knew what that was going to lead to and what that was what that is now, but I saw that like at the end of 2016, like I just held that tool and I was like this is you know, Instagram revolutionized how we socialize with with photos. And Tik Tok has revolutionized how we, how we
socialize with videos. And I don't think we'll see another big social media platform shift until there's a big shift in like hardware that's being widely used by everybody. Because hardware has always dictated what social media does. So everyone's like, what's next. And like, I don't know if there's something significantly different next, until there's something significantly different that we all have
access to. And we're all holding in our hands every day. So more people having laptops created MySpace, more people being able to text from a phone created Twitter, more people being able to have photos on their phone, created Instagram. And then more people having videos on their phone created Tik Tok, that it really is what dictates what platform comes next. You know, we'll obviously have new tools and new things come into the
market. But I don't think we'll see as drastic of a shift in social platforms until there's hardware to sort of inspire that shift.
And I think, to your point hardware available to the masses, yeah, like, I think VR is a big thing. But it's still at a price point that not everybody...
VR, there's a lot of limitations as to how much time you can use it for, it'd be for a lot of reasons you couldn't be in that situation in a VR Room for more than 20 minutes. One, it's going to be difficult for people to figure out how to take a break and go use the bathroom because you're gonna have to like gear off and gear off and mid experience. It's probably not good for your brain. I don't know, like the
science behind that. But I imagined that it's not great to do that kind of experience for more than 20 minutes, I think that there's some limitations to in terms of like one it being mobile, being able to carry it with you, but to like how long a person can engage with that in a healthy way. So I think that that has a second to sort of develop before we see major changes because of that.
Here you are today, co founder of your own social media, music management firm, you're young...
I like that. I feel old all the time. So call me young as much as being you know, young and female. Both of those things, either together or separately, can definitely create adversity. Sometimes I will say though, I haven't had some of the horror stories that other people have had. Luckily, like I've had my moments where I can call where like, I know that if I said the same thing on the phone or in an email in a room and I was older I was a man or I was both of those things that I
wouldn't be taken more seriously. And I see some of my clients who have older white male managers, and they, I feel like those guys do nothing for the artists and the artists idolizes them strangely, I'll never understand some of that. So there's some frustrations that I have for that. But overall, I just, I think I just a voice, I've kind of had the mindset like, I'm going to do this no matter what. And I will keep pushing no matter what. And, you know, I have those
moments, but I'm not going to let it stop me. And I actually had, I feel like this moment happened at the right time in my life, not this year, but the year before I attended a Forbes summit in Abu Dhabi. And because of some world conflicts, Hillary Clinton was supposed to be there in person, but she wasn't able to do so. But they had her like conference in and I was fortunate enough to be selected to like, ask her a question
directly, which was a really awesome moment for me. And the question I asked her and I was kind of dealing with a couple different things that work that were challenging not because of the people that I work with, but because of external circumstances with some of the clients I work with. And I asked him like, you went through like the greatest like one of the greatest career losses that you can you lost a presidential election. Why are you still here? Like, how do you keep
going after that? Because I think a lot of people if they lost the presidential election would be like, bye.
Yeah. Where's the nearest rock I can crawl under?
Yeah, and she's just like, I don't want people to think they're right about me. Like, I don't want the naysayers to think they're right about me. i It's like, I almost have too much ego or too much pride to do that. But I think that's a really positive thing. And I feel the same way. Like I, if somebody thinks I can't do something, it's, you know, kind of secretly like a not a negative motivator, but kind of a fun motivator. Like, that's kind of how I am. It's
motivating to be like, Hi, I'm here. I know you didn't want me to be but here I am. You can't get away from me. And I'm going to change your mind because I'm going to do great things for this project that are going to make you look great, too, then it's going to happen one way or another.
Oh my gosh. Okay. So do you consider yourself more of an artist or more of a business person?
Definitely a business person. I think I'm very creative, but definitely like in a business way. I think I'm really good at creating new processes. All problems that like nobody would have pieced together the same way, I think I'm really good at looking at somebody's art or product of being an artist and figuring out how they can make some changes and make their business operate more efficiently or marter.
market their products more efficiently. But I'm definitely business like, through through for sure.
So this whole genre of business is relatively new. I mean, what is it? 20 years old, maybe?
Yeah, I've been working at it since the beginning. And I would say like the birth of it, I would say, MySpace was like, the main moment, I think birth of social media, but here volume, which was a couple of years before that. And it goes an important predecessor to what like the music player on MySpace was so pure volume, Myspace era is kind of like the birth of modern social media, as I see it now.
So knowing now all the platforms that we have, what advice do you give to folks that say, Hey, now? I mean, let's say it's been 20 years. I mean, now it's flooded. So how do you differentiate yourself, if you were just now coming up into it.
There's still a lot of problems to be solved in the music business in general, I think attaching yourself to a problem that you feel like you have insight on that people may not have thought of is a really good way to get into a business. It's competitive, like the music business. And the problem I saw is, there's this platform called MySpace, and I see a bunch of local college bands using it, but I'm not seeing big artists use it. And I'm not really sure why. But I know that fans would
like engaging with popular artists in this way. And so I just kind of went for it. Because I didn't see anybody doing it. And I, I thought about me, and I'm like, this would have been so cool. If like the Backstreet Boys could like send updates on MySpace bulletins, and, you know, share new songs on a player and DM people back and post content in real time, I was like, This is so cool, I would have loved this. And I want to help other artists do that. And I'm going to take the
burden off of artists having to think about that. And I'm going to be making some of their fans happy and feel more seen and communicated within the same time. But I you know, I really attached myself to this problem or thing that wasn't being done yet. And I think that's always a good way into a business, it's easier to win in business, if you pick a lane that isn't as crowded, but might have problems that affect a lot of people on a frequent basis.
That's great counsel. So running your company, what are some of the business things that you wish you knew that you had to learn the hard way?
One of the biggest things I had to learn the hard way is that it's a very different payment schedule, in terms of how you get paid as a business versus how you get paid as an employee. So there's a lot of laws protecting employees in terms of you having to be paid, you know, on time, in the way they were promised. In business, it's a little, it's a little more dicey. Like, I would say, most companies aren't going to
pay you for at least 30 days. And sometimes they tell you, they're going to pay you in 30 days, but they actually don't pay you for six months. And sometimes in worst case scenario, people don't pay you ever, you get ripped off. So I you know, I've I've obviously evolved like my policies over the years to protect myself from different situations like this.
But when you pick up a project you're having, you're kind of having to invest a little bit like you have to invest in staff and resources, before you get paid, especially at the bigger companies like a warner or Sony, or universal or Disney, they're gonna up they're gonna pay at least the minimum, they'll pay 30 days, a lot of times, it's 9120, sometimes it gets lost in the shuffle, and you don't get it for like six months or a year. So you just have to plan your cash flow schedule
accordingly. And know how much cash you have to have on hand to run your business and have a really good system in place for keeping track of what's owed to you and when to cut off projects when they haven't paid. So I'd say that's one thing that especially understood better because I didn't start a company with like that knowledge or funding. And at the beginning, the first year, it's really hard to like, you know, be like, Oh, I thought I would have gotten paid by now and I can't pay my
rent. And this is scary. So I have that under control now. But people don't pay the bills on time. It's just not the same as being an employee. So really think about that, when you're starting a business if you want to do that. So that's part one. And part two, probably the hardest part of your job is not going to be the service you offer or the product. You're making the hardest part of the job for me and I think a lot of other people who run a business is like the personnel and staff
side of it. It's really tough. I feel like there's not a lot of education on how to live while you're in school anyway on how to hire the right people manage them the correct way. And then that's evolves per generation to and what's happening in the world. How you manage people, before and after. COVID is pretty different, how you manage people and the office versus work from home. Very Different. And that I would say, that's definitely the hardest part of my job. And I think I've learned
a lot. And I give a lot of other people advice now on those topics, but it was a hard journey, one from a business standpoint, but too emotionally, because it's hard to not take things personal when somebody that's worked for you for five years quits that you really liked, and you feel like you had a friendship with too, or somebody leaves and goes to another company. Or it can even be like, emotionally daunting.
Sometimes when you delegate a task to somebody and they don't do it, you get in your head, and you're like, am I not delegating, right? Do they just not like me? Do they just not care, and it really has taken a lot of work to be able to have a better like, emotional relationship with, you know, employees, you know, leaving or not doing their jobs correctly.
Thank you, by the way for the vulnerability of sharing that.
Of course.
One of the things I think you really hit that nail on the head with is the people side of the business, what are some of the resources that you've leaned on to help develop your leadership and management styles?
So I've gone through different phases in my life, about how to handle these different things, because I will say it is like, I still have problems with it today, it is still an ongoing journey. I don't I don't think it ever won't be I think it's managing people and groups of people is a hard job. So, you know, I for a while I had a business coach, me and my business partner would actually do some of the sessions
together. And I think that that served us really well. At that point in our life, we're doing it I don't know if that's the right situation for me anymore. But I think that if you're looking for a place to start, even like a monthly session with like a career coach or business coach can be super helpful just to gain insight. And it's kind of like having a therapist in business is how I say it, but it is super helpful. And you're able to, like address a specific situation and work through how
to deal with it. And also why like, you may be emotionally feeling about it a certain way. And I actually I, you know, I do therapy every week, and I talked to my therapist about some of the issues I have with employees to not really like, um, the decisions I should make, but why I feel a certain way about them, or why what is this drumming up inside of me in resolving that issue, because it actually probably has nothing anything to do with work, but you know, work in your history of your life,
you know, they do affect each other. So it is, you know, I think it's important to figure out some way to analyze why you may feel like you're overreacting in certain situations at work, and not have that conversation be happening with people that you work with. So I think that that's something that's, that's really important. I've read a lot of different books over the years, but I would say and a lot of them have
helped me in different capacities. But I will say the one book that always helps me when I'm struggling with personnel issues and how I feel about them is the Four Agreements. I know that's not really a business book, but I have a mini version of it actually, that I keep in my
purse. And if I go through it and think about each agreement, and then this like the mini version of the book, you can read in like five minutes, but I find if I go through it, I can pinpoint like, what's out of balance with that issue, and kind of bring it back into perspective and bring it back into logic. And once I bring it back into Logic, I feel like I can make a better decision. And also for me, I'm lucky I have a
business partner. So I would say that's another thing that's kept me grounded deck, I got really lucky with my business partner situation, because I've seen a lot of people go into business together, and it was not the right partner for them. And the reason why I think we work is purely just luck. Like we didn't ask each other the right hard questions at the beginning of this, I wouldn't have known the right hard questions to ask when
I was 20 years old. And we did this, we got lucky in terms of being really aligned on the big stuff, what's important to us. And just I think being having a good moral compass and being generally good people has worked out but I've seen a lot of people not be in the same situation as me. So I got lucky on that one. But it's nice to have somebody like her to be able to talk to you about these issues as well because other perspectives are important than these tricky personnel situations sometimes.
Absolutely. So totally shift gears; when you unplug, what do you do?
When I unplug? It depends on how much time I have. I think that if I'm if I'm trying to wind down to like go to sleep. I love television. Apparently I love first responder television. I didn't realize that was a genre until one of the streaming platforms gave me a category that was like first responder TV and I'm like, Oh, I guess that's my thing. Television is kind of like a I guess sort of an easy lift to
take me out of my head if I've had a rough day. My favorite thing to do to relax is to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch on Hulu. I like even if it's just like 10 minutes. I like to like turn it on. It's strangely like such a peaceful sitcom for me, but I like to watch that even if it's like in a small dose or like five to 10 minutes before I go to bed while I'm eating
something like that. I really like it. I love Going for a walk, I walk a lot, I walk a lot when I'm on conference calls, actually, but I like to walk and maybe call a family member, sometimes that's helpful to kind of take me out of my head and relax a little bit and, you know, brings me brings me joy. And if I have more time, I like anything to do with the water. I love swimming, there's a nice swimming pool complex that I can
walk to from my house. That's awesome. That's one of the reasons actually, like why we moved to this area, we also moved to this area because we live in Santa Monica, and we wanted to be closer to the ocean. So I like being around the ocean. And if I have the most time, I like to travel somewhere and go somewhere where I can swim and do snorkeling and other nice things in the water. But I really enjoy swimming, snorkeling, and finding sea turtles in Hawaii. That is my ultimate way to relax.
That's awesome. What's next? As you look to the future, where do we go from here?
I think I have a couple lanes for next, there's still a lot of problems to be solved in digital marketing. And there's more work than ever for artists to do. So I think that my business will still be evolving on that front and continuing to figure out how to make artists lives a little bit easier on the digital marketing front. And this like ongoing need to create a ton of content. So I think that's going to be
one important thing. The second lane artists management, I really want to find one or two more artists to really get behind and be a part of their team. So I'm kind of looking for those projects right now, it would be like a couple more of those over the next few years, I think Lane number three is I really want to figure out how to evolve how digital marketing people in the music business are compensated. So right now we operate very much on a retainer basis. So you get, you know, a
monthly fee for the work that you do. But the amount of work that we're doing is just becoming so astronomical, that I've recently struck a deal with a record label on a project where we're taking a percentage of master versus getting paid per month. And I think that's going to work great for the artists because they're not going to have that you know, upfront cost going against their advance in their record deal, though record label, it doesn't have to front that cost up
front. But if this project does work, I win. And I feel good about the work I did in the beginning of their career and getting them going on the digital front. I'm really hoping to see more projects that are formatted on a percentage basis. And that's a legacy that I want for me, but I want to be a part of other digital people being able to do that, too. So that's why I'm openly talking about these deal structures, because I want other digital marketing people to maybe think about a
percentage might be a better option for them. Like in the music business accountants slash business managers is what they're called, and lawyers and artists, managers are compensated on percentage. And I think digital is oftentimes just as important as any of those roles. And I want digital to be compensated and rewarded in the long run in a respectable way, if they're an important part of an artist's career. And then item four, I want to make a book about evergreen principles of
social media. It's something I'm working on right now. But I see because I've done this for so long. I've seen there's a lot of things that change, but there's a lot of things that stay the same. So I'm working on that right now. I want to put that
out in the next couple of years. And then five, I do have a goal of doing some sort of television production at some point, whether it's a reality show or a drama, I have a couple of things in the mix, but I you know, want to bring one of those ideas to life at some point. But those are like my main focuses at the moment.
I really don't say this lightly, but I think it's super inspiring to see the path you've paved. I mean, you're wise beyond your years.
Oh, thank you.
I really appreciate you being here. Thank you very much.
Of course. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you all.