coaching the podcast from ag leadership we're a leadership and performance coach training company focused on developing exceptional leadership coaches for modern if this incredible vocation is something that calls to you too so with that let's meet this week's guest So, Carlin, really great to have you here. Thank you so much for being here for this show. I think I always kick off these shows with the question about your niche, however you want to phrase it.
So do you have an indication of who it is that you work with and what is it that you support them with and what's so important about them? I appreciate that question. What's interesting is initially when I started coaching, I thought, oh, I got to figure this out immediately. And eventually I settled on. the perspective that, hey, let's just allow this to emerge. So what has emerged for me is mostly working with social leaders, executive directors of small nonprofit organizations.
A lot of folks who are from historically underrepresented communities in the nonprofit sector in terms of leadership positions, particularly in the U.S. And then the vast majority of the clients that I work with are folks who are in many cases this is their first like legit like they are the leader right so here i guess you can use the terminology emerging leaders
For many of them, this is the first time that they've had to manage a team, a budget, and think about strategy and growth, fundraising, development, all these things that come with running a nonprofit organization. And they tend to be the folks who also just give me life because I know the life has been someone who's founded a nonprofit, has ran nonprofits, and built the vast majority of my career working in the nonprofit sector.
so you've got a lot of track record yourself in that arena as well yeah yeah yeah out of college My first job technically was working in sales, which I hated. But my next job was working for a nonprofit organization that provided before school, in school, after school support to young people. in communities that were quote-unquote urban, relatively medium to large-sized cities, we'll say.
And I loved it. I loved working in the space. I loved feeling like the work that I was doing was having an impact. And in particular, I just enjoyed the idea that I felt like I was committing to a cause much greater than myself in that particular space. Very early on, I said, hey, I want to run a nonprofit, not knowing what that meant. Growing up, I never really, I grew up in a very small community.
We didn't really have like nonprofit organizations or anything. It was most initiatives were ran by local state government and by community. So as I got older and built my career and also was a classroom educator for a little bit, I found myself back to running a small nonprofit and then around 2019 launched a nonprofit with my partner, which now I work full time for and we've grown over the years. So now we have.
I know firsthand what it's like to be in the trenches. I'll just put it that way. Yes, you do. Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. I'm really curious about.
thank you for sharing that by the way that was fascinating i have so many questions about that i don't know where to start but i have to be mindful we only have 30 minutes but i suppose what i'm really curious about is the coaching edge to this and the people that you're coaching now currently those people that you get a sense of being drawn to and those people who you get a sense.
will really benefit from working with you. It feels like there's this Japanese term of Ikigai, which is like reason for being Ikigai, right? And it feels like you meet that place there from the way that you describe that. I'm wondering, what do you notice is... the biggest struggle or the biggest struggles that those people come to you with, what are they really battling with that they can't necessarily resolve themselves? Yeah.
It's a great question. What I've noticed and what I've seen has actually given me some great insight also just into how we as humans are in the custom process of becoming. But typically the big challenges that come up for people is just how do they show up in spaces? When they have doubts and they have fears about how effective they may be as leaders, about whether or not they're prepared for their position.
Big question often comes up because a lot of the folks I'm working with, like I said, first time they're having to raise money for organization, right? It's like, how do I actually make ass? How do I actually make this sustainable financially? So there's doubts and fears a lot of times around trying to figure out revenue generation for a nonprofit organization. identity is something that is a big topic. Mostly because a lot of the folks that I work with are from historically underrepresented.
communities, minoritized communities, marginalized communities. So for much of their life, they felt like outsiders. And because they felt like outsiders, there's certain tendencies that they've developed over time that have put them in these positions where... They have been forced to just survive rather than figuring out how do they thrive. So for a lot of my clients and the folks I'm working with, that is the big shift.
How do we shift from the survival minds of just trying to get by, trying to survive and be good? Or for some folks, I've heard this framed from another coach, but the zone of excellence, right? So for a lot of the folks that I work with... They've done well and they've had to do well because it wasn't an option not to do well. If they didn't do well, they were facing pretty significant, tangible consequences that would have had a detrimental impact in their lives.
They gravitated towards this pursuit of excellence, if you will. But what I'm trying to tap into or help my clients tap into, rather, should I say, is... What I think is Gay Hendricks frames as the zone of genius. so that's the bigger game yeah i think yeah yeah like amazing yeah so making that shift from that survival mode to that five mode right that is
That is the big work that we embark on together. And it is a fascinating journey. And it's a journey that I'm very privileged and honored and humbled to be a part of with other folks. Um, one phrase comes to mind for me is like imposter syndrome. I don't know if that's a, is that a thing for your guys? Do they, are they aware of that phrase? Cause that was like last year's buzzword over here in the UK.
everyone's got imposter syndrome but it sounds like your guys and girls like would be like wow this is a real thing yeah yeah yeah it's interesting i've heard a different terminology more recently that as a replacement, if you will, for imposter syndrome, just to frame it from a different standpoint. But the gist of it, the spirit of it is the same. I can't remember the phrase, so I'll probably think of it randomly.
When you think about this idea of having to be into a position that you don't feel like you deserve or that you don't feel like you're prepared for. There are certain, again, as I mentioned before, doubts and fears that appear. Am I good enough? Can I be successful? What if I fail? How will people view me? So the terminology imposter syndrome being the term that we often...
speak of or use to describe this particular phenomenon. That's the word, a posture phenomenon. That's a new term that I've heard some researchers trying to introduce as a way to recognize that. The other word syndrome, it makes it seem like it's like. serious yeah you know incurable when it may not necessarily be that big of a thing as much as it is a phenomenon that happens because of people's lived experience
So just going through that bay, right? Imposter phenomenon. What I do see a lot coming out from folks. is they've built up certain survival mechanisms, right? Certain tendencies that have served them at points in their lives, they develop this, we'll call the inner critic, that pops up as a way to keep them safe.
The problem is that it kept them safe up until this point. Now they're playing a different ball game. That voice will no longer serve them in the long haul. So they have to evolve to higher states of consciousness to realize what is the gift. that they're harboring and how to leverage that gift. So for many of them, it is.
These feelings of being an imposter or feeling like they don't belong because the places where they have felt safe are places that did not look like the places they currently exist in. So they haven't evolved their way of thinking and being to say, hey, I deserve to be in whatever space I choose to show up in. And no one can take that away from me. And that's a big shift and change for a lot of people.
But imagine there's a lot of inner critic voice because the inner critic is its biggest fear is shame. Like it's shame in a inner voice. So it's if your people are stepping into kind of a new realm entirely. The Inner Critic has a lot of story about the unknown. You don't want to go there. You don't want to go there. You don't need to. Everything's fine over here. So we're taught as coaches, aren't we, to really...
have awareness around our own inner critics, but then also give our clients the awareness about their inner critic voices as well. And it sounds like that would be a strong one. Exactly. Yeah. It's always fascinating, even thinking about the language around inner critic for a lot of folks, the way they experience this inner critic, if you will, is from a place of... trying to maintain and trying to keep push forward in a larger societal structure.
that based on social, economic, political circumstance. It does not recognize your humanity. And because of that, right, this thing that we'll name as the inner critic actually for a lot of folks feels slightly, slightly overwhelming. Because if you're thinking about someone feeling their experience in discrimination or prejudice,
in certain spaces, right? That can be a very real and tangible thing that they're experiencing. It's not as easy to say, hey, let me try to... be aware of my inner critic and challenge the narrative about switch perspective or something yeah right that may be a very challenging thing for people to do yeah and we know that there are
right societal structures in place that do prevent people from accessing certain opportunities right so when you think about it that way right it may even pop up but different terminology we could even use is the voice of reason yeah is that Life has taught them that.
These two particular type of circumstances and situations, let's just say being in a leadership position, is reserved for certain groups of people. And then the only examples that they've had of people who may look like them or reflect their identity in these type of positions haven't been necessarily positive. The voice of reason pops up and says, oh, think about all these case studies of folks who look like you who've gone into these positions and what's happened to them.
This doesn't seem like it's going to be a good ideal or safe space for you to be a leader. this given moment and this organization doing this work whatever it may be and that that muddies the waters a little bit because now it's not even just necessarily reframing but also thinking about all right what are the possibilities i want to create
Given that I do know that there are societal structures that exist that may be adversarial to my existence. And that is some ongoing work that always is required.
And it sounds like it feels like really interesting times to be able to name it and frame it and just change it it feels like the kind of work that you're doing is really having an effect on a systemic level it's uh you're getting in there and you're bringing your skills and your ability and your your mission to the equation and it's shifting. perceptions and shifting the system as a whole.
So it feels like such important work. And I think that's where it leads me on to thinking about coaching as a modality because you're alumni with ACT Leadership, of course, and this podcast is, we're all around coaching. I guess I get really curious about how you discovered coaching for yourself. Oftentimes we come across it.
Not randomly, but we get curious about this set of tools or this terminology called coaching and it's sport coaching. No, something different. But we get curious about it and then we pursue the interest and often we follow the thread and it leads us to a place of... I'm just going to try this demo over here. I'm going to be someone's client for a demo. And it's like, we get bitten by the, we get the bug for it. So I'm really curious about your journey to coaching. How did you come across it?
That's a good question. So in 2020, when COVID essentially ravaged the entire planet, I found myself like many others. A place of just confusion, sadness, hurt. I had a young son who was at home. I was also trying to work virtually for the nonprofit. My partner had just found it. And a lot of our work before COVID was very much so in-person based. So moving virtually was a huge shift for us.
And out of nowhere, I actually had a friend reach out to me and say, hey, there's this guy I've been working with as a coach that you'd be interested in connecting with.
Sure, I don't know much about what a professional coach is or anything like that. The only context I have for coaching is playing sports when I was growing up as an athlete. I connected with... this guy and it was one of the most awakening and eye-opening experiences partly maybe because it was Someone was fully listening to me, and that wasn't something I felt I was experiencing at the time, given the rollercoaster emotion that I was inhabiting.
It really awakens something in me to say, wow, there's something deeper about us as humans that is worth exploring. And as we continue to build that relationship and we got to know each other and talk more, I think you'll be a great coach. All right. How do we do that? You know what I mean? Around that time.
someone else reached out to me about coaching and this time you say hey i'm going through this program the act leader to become a coach and i need to get some practice hours would you be open to me coaching you i was like oh you're like hold on let's do it so we ended up connecting and he's the one who actually introduced me to act leader was like hey I also think you should be, you'll be a great coach. You should look into this and let me introduce you.
So Mike and Aaron, an ACT leader, and then I ended up signing up for the course and the rest of the history. But the truth is, right, like you connect the dots looking backwards always, right? I know there has been things that have led me up to this particular experience, right? The experience of partnering with people in a thoughtful way to help them maximize their potential, right? Nurturing the spiritual growth of others, right? Because growing up as a kid, I grew up in a small Southern town.
attended church quite often. My family also was founding members of two churches. And through that experience, I saw the power of being and dialogue. I saw the power of being in community with other people. I saw the power of being able to provoke folks in a way that really awakens something deeper in there. And as I got older, I always reflected on those experiences. Once I got to college, I got really interested in this idea of leadership. And something about it just gravitated.
to me, or I gravitated towards it, should I say. And that led me to just being really interested in what is a leader? What makes a great leader? And I went through a whole bunch of different leadership development programs in my 20s. Through all of them, I was always just very fascinated and interested in how do you bring the best out of people? How do you do that? And I think that's something that's always just been in the back of my mind.
And so the coaching process gave me just this great framework for how to actually codify some of my thoughts on how do you do that in the brain, even some. What I appreciate it too is just exposing me to the larger coaching world where I can learn from other folks who are doing this thing we call coaching in real time. And it's just grown and grown from there.
I think it's an amazing set of tools, isn't it? Because... I think what it does so well, and oftentimes it can be a little bit disconcerting for those who are leaders who have been in positions of leadership before. is the fact that we're trained to listen incredibly well for what's coming up in the person in front of us rather than issue commands or in the old school leadership way.
So like being a coach, it means that we listen incredibly well and we give them tons and tons of space like you mentioned before. And in that space, they're able to surface their own answers and hence this autonomy and this sense of... I'm a leader as well. So it can be a real shift, can't it? And I think once we discover that, it sounds like you were leadership curious from an early age.
And I think once we discover the world of coaching, especially with real solid, decent certified coaching schools. It's just, wow, this is incredible. This set of skills and tools where we can help this individual over here really step into their own. And it sounds like you were doing that. Absolutely. As you share that, what comes to mind for me...
It's actually from one of my favorite writers, a guy named Dr. Sean Jenwright. But he wrote a book called The Four Pivots. And in that book, he presents this. One of the pivots has been moving from problems to possibilities. And I see that. The playing field for coaches is helping people move from problems to possibilities. And thinking about our way of schooling and our traditional learning experiences, we tend to learn how to love problems.
We analyze them, talk about them, we engage with them, right? We write these entire theses and books on problems. But we don't refine the skill to create possibilities very often. And that is something that's very fascinating when you think about the fact that we have so many challenges. in the world, but most of our energy is more focused on analyzing problems rather than, you know, do about those problems. And so we end up inflating. having awareness and having deep knowledge about an issue.
with actually addressing the issue. And they're not the same thing, right? So as a coach, that is the real work is like, how do you help people and get people to a place where they can actually create more possibilities in their life? And moving from a place of just, let me talk about all these problems in my life, right? But... A big part of the work is really figuring out what you want to do about it.
We have this, yeah, I love that. I love what you're saying there. It reminds me of something actually that my dad used to say years back where I think his worldview and his mentality was, If it's not hard work, then it's not valuable. He would be very transfixed and focused in on the problem and knowing the problem intimately. And yeah, actually finding a solution. If the solution was easier, then it can't be the right solution.
And it really echoes what you're saying, I think. That was an amazing insight. It's just gone off in my head there, similar to what you were saying. When it came to the actual classroom, when you were doing the ACT training, when you were in there, What were some of the kind of experiences that really stayed with you or some of the tools that you really enjoyed and learned from? I think the thing that I've gravitated the most towards is just...
The bigger picture of reactive to creative, right? And framing leadership development, human development, adult development from that particular. We have these reactive tendencies that we've developed over time. There's nothing inherently wrong with them, right? They're gifts in disguise and they're things that... develop as a response to our circumstances and events in our lives, right? But we have an opportunity to move into this creative space and to choose.
how we may do that and what are the thoughts, mindsets, and beliefs we need to embody in order to do so, right? To me, the model itself was the most impactful and powerful thing because
It gave me at least a very tangible thing to frame conversations around for leaders who are struggling through issues, right? And thinking about how do we actually... understand what's going on and then figure out what we want to do about it right so react up to create up the above the line below the line right those things really resonated with me and like i said just gave me some very powerful insights into
how we can tee up these very powerful conversations with people, where they're at and where they want to be, and what is the work necessary to get there. Oftentimes, we're kind of running on autopilot, aren't we? And then once we recognize that our tendencies and our biases towards sometimes reactive tendencies... It can come from fear or the unknown or all sorts of different places. But having recognition of that allows us then to reframe into being more creative in our approach.
I think that was one of the big tools for me as well when I came across that. When you did the training, oftentimes, you know, I would say every time actually, anytime someone trains to be a coach. There are always kind of key takeaways. So you walk out of the classroom, metaphorically speaking or actually, and you have these skills and tools and new abilities of how to listen well or how to ask powerful questions. And I'm curious, I guess, as to...
How those things have stayed with you on a personal level and on a kind of business level as well. So you were able to kind of say a few things about like how that's impacted your personal relationships as well as your business relationship. So on a personal level, I think the greatest gain is simply the ability to sit, be still, and listen. When you think about...
what is required to actually actively listen or what we would call level career listening. And to actually engage in powerful questioning, it requires almost this letting go, this surrender. if you will, to a moment. And oftentimes we don't surrender to moments, right? We're constantly trying to move. We're constantly trying to control or direct things in a certain way. comes with, I'm sure, advantages and disadvantages, right? But part of the big disadvantages is that oftentimes it
It compromises the opportunity to build and establish and maintain and sustain very deep relationships with other people. So because I've been able to refine those particular skills, I'm able to engage and just be present with people. Without this underlying urge to just try to jump in and share my thoughts or my opinions or my perspective, right? Not to say that I'm like perfect with it, but...
There's been a significant change in how I engage with people, my family, friends, et cetera, because I am able. To sit back, relax, surrender to the moment, right? Don't allow folks to have the space in order to process. That's from a personal level. On a professional level, For me, it's completely transformed the way I lead. I have a team of about a little over 10 people, and I manage roughly half of those folks directly.
And the way I show up with them is from a place of being a co-conspirator, if you will. What I mean by that is someone who's willing to get in the game with them. And to do the hard and dirty work of trying to save or trying to tell people what to do, but rather allow people to be great. and support them in being great. Additional models of leadership have been very top-down, hierarchical.
When you think about folks that we think of as band leaders, a lot of times we have these images of military generals. CEOs of these big companies who had these very authoritarian personalities. But for me, what's come out for me is I'm able to be for lack of a better word, a silent leader, a quiet leader, right? I'm able to show up and not have to exert my authority or exert my formal positionality.
over people, but rather be a guide, a support sister, someone who can ask the right questions, give people the space to think, allow people to process, and just be in this creative process of... learning, understanding, developing, right? And my team has responded very well to this particular type of leadership because it's given them the license.
that they felt they needed in order to really run with the work, right? There have definitely been times in my leadership journey where I felt like I had to have all the answers. I felt like I needed to have the perfect strategy or perfect this or the perfect that. And now... As I continue to evolve and I get deeper and deeper with this, maybe I'll rely on my team a lot more and trust my team and be okay with that, right? Because there was definitely points also in our head.
my own doubts and fears about having folks really take over the work and make decisions and all these other things. And that's for the most part, they paid it now. So I can really just be the person that guides people. Like I said, the overall vision. But my team has become the folks who are really able to execute the vision without me having to tell them, like, this is what you need to do. We're in this co-creation process, this communicative process, this dialogic process.
where we're constantly working to get better at the work that we do. And a lot of the work that we do is hard work. We're working with educators and leaders to help them become better at their craft. And that requires a certain level of intentionality. that you may not get when you're talking about something that's purely transactional, right? So that has been quite transformative.
there's some lovely like we could go forever i'm aware we need to draw it in but there's something about permission the word comes up for me when you were describing all the way that you're approaching and your stance on it as a leader, it feels like you're giving so much permission to these people that you're in a position of leadership with. And I think what we naturally do is when we're given that permission, we rise up to meet it.
And we bring out our own internal leader, our own inner leader. So it feels like you're doing a remarkable job of holding that space for them and giving them full permission. And I appreciate it. Like I said, it's been a work in progress. Sure. You know. It wasn't just a switch. I wish it was, right? You know what I've noticed, especially from a coaching standpoint, right? Because I employ coaching skills on a regular basis.
with my team to the point where I'm teaching them the coaching skills or they're learning the coaching skills. We're learning the coaching skills are getting better, these coaching skills together. There's even some meetings. But people may rephrase something or may ask permission. Try to engage in level three listening and make note of what they're noticing. And they were like, well, I'm about LaCarlin right now, right? Trademark TM. Now it's becoming.
Sticky, if you will, with our team and the organization. I love this idea of trying to send to them this license, this permission to be great. Many of us have these quote unquote work troubles. where we haven't been felt, seen, and heard at work. So we're just used to taking orders and feeling that our whole way of being at work is dependent on whoever our supervisor is. It's not the way I want to lead, but like I said, it took...
A couple of years to get to this space and practice has been the most important. Coaching my butt off, I guess you could say, a better way of putting it, has been the focus is like, how do I, with permission of course, bring these skills into practice on a daily basis. So I'm supporting people and opening to their own grace.
It feels like you've built those muscles really well. Yeah, amazing. Okay, so just drawing this in, this has been a fantastic conversation. Where can people find you? How can people reach out to you if they want to connect? Yeah. So for our organization, the Equity Institute org, I also, in terms of my coaching work, you literally can. Uh, find me at carlinhoward.com. So C A R L O N H O W A R D.com.
That is more of my focus for my coaching work, but folks would be able to reach out to me directly. So feel free to reach out if I can be able to. Very cool. Yeah. This has been an amazing conversation. Really. Yeah. It'd be great to have another conversation in the future as well. I felt like there was lots of questions that I could have explored.
we've only got 30 odd minutes so i was like oh i need to need to leave some of those questions behind but i'd love to have another conversation in the future maybe in season two it'd be awesome let's do it let's do it so colin thank you so much it's been a real pleasure and yeah i look forward to speaking to you again soon yeah likewise i appreciate the opportunity and look forward to continuing to engage and build together. Take care, man.
why don't you check out actleader.com. That's www.actleader.com. On our website, we have a ton of information that can really help you get clarity on the exact right course for you. We also have articles that go into detail about the different aspects of coaching, how to apply it, and why it's a wonderful thing. Look forward to seeing you soon.