Ashamed of your body and guilty about everything related to sex? Would that be okay?
Nobody would say yes, right? They had been off with the choice, right right.
So like that stuff just got put in our brains and it's there, flourishing, flourishing.
You know what we do here, destroy shame around sex by talking about sex. Now, let me tell you something messy. Hi, how are you? How's it going? How's your heart? If you're new to the pod, this is not how we usually start the show. And if you've been with me for a minute, you know that we always start with a messy story or we debunk a messy myth, and we do messy mail, and then we have our guests, and you know, I like to start the show off
with a lot of joy and laughter and fun. And that's not how we're starting this episode because things have happened in the last week. I'm based in Los Angeles and so as you can imagine, the last week has been a nightmare. And that is putting it lightly. I do not think that I have cried or had this many breakdowns in my entire life that I have in the last week. So here's the deal. I'm not going
to tell a messy story. Today, I'm just going to kind of introduce the interview because I also recognize that, you know, people tune into the show for a little bit of escape. You know, you know you want a little escape from what may be happening, or you know some of you might actually also be from Los Angeles. I have people in Los Angeles, and so I want to be conscious about not triggering as people are healing and navigating what's going on in our city and also
in our country, in the world at large. So I will at the end of the pod, after Hose of Heart, I will talk about this experience what I can talk about so far and share with you how I'm doing and how we're doing, my partners and I and all the things that I have learned thus far with the caveat that it will be imperfect and messy and it
will evolve over time, and I'm sure I will. You know, we're still in it as I As I am recording this, I'm recording this outside of LA because we decided to leave again because where our apartment is is a really prime zone for issues, if you will, So we decided to just best as more wins. We're coming in to get out the city. So as you can imagine, my
emotions are all over the place. But the episode today is one that I record did a few months ago, and it means everything to me because it's with Emily Nagoski, who is the author of Come As You Are and is an incredible, incredible voice in this space of sex and identity and pleasure and somebody who I look up to.
And the fact that she agreed to do the show, I mean, I can't tell you the ways in which we were, like me and my producer Vincent, and you know, we're just like so geeked out about it, and I've been talking about it. I think we reached out to her like last June, and we're finally able to record with her sometime in September, and so to finally be able to share it with you is just a dream
come true. And so let's just how about we just how about we just go right into it and hopefully next week or if not next week, by the end of this month, the top of next month, we'll be back to our regular kind of openings and stuff. But you know, me, I really value acknowledging where we are individually and collectively and not trying to deny the emotions that are are are prevalent, not trying to numb it,
but actually allow it to be. And so my choice to not try and come up with a messy story or even talk about a messy story because it just is not where my energy is is how I am taking care of myself and I hope taking care of you too, giving you space to feel how you feel, whether it's about the fires because you're experiencing it, or something else in your life. We do not have to
Business as usual is not a thing. Okay, it's something that I reject, especially as the world continues to do so many things that are hard to witness and feel an experience. It is just business as usual, I think is harming us. And so let's acknowledge where we are and work from that place and be free from that place. So, uh, shall we jump into the interview? Baby? You know what that means. It is time for a guest. Now, while
they get situated, we'll get our messy. Kiki started with a how manifesto repeat after me aloud or in your head. Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to that sex is not just about penetration, the audacity to advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength to not call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or fuck bay, for it is better to masturbate by myself in peace than to let someone play
in my mother fuck face. Let the community say, oh helujah, I am so excited to have Emily Nagowski on the show. Emily Nagoski is the award winning author of the New York Times best selling Come As You Are and Come Together, as well as the Come As You Are Workbook, and co author with her sister Amelia, of the New York Times bestseller Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle.
She earned an MS in Counseling and a PhD in Health behavior, both from Indiana University, with clinical and research training at the Kinsey Institute. Now, she combines sex education and stress education to teach women to live with confidence and joy inside their bodies. She lives in Massachusetts with two dogs, a cat, and a cartoonist. Y'all please make some noise for Emily Nagoski. Welcome, Emily.
Hello, I'm so excited to be talking to you.
I'm so like, literally, I was selling you before we start that I've been listening to you the audible and so you've been in my head and I'm just i might have a melt down talking to you now because I'm just so excited. I also, I like, just got a haircut. I tell my barber, I was like, you have to read this book. I think that everyone has to read this book. I don't like, I know that the book really and we'll talk about this everybody. We'll get into it. It centers around women, but I just
feel like everybody should be reading. Come as you are and come together because the information is invaluable. So thank you for writing it first and force so much. Yeah, all right, So before we get started, we have a couple what we call our messy mandates, so things get to be unprocessed. Any thoughts or opinions shared have the right to shift or change today, tomorrow or ten years
from now. And if during our little messy key key something feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the safe word foosball, which will give us a second or a chance to pivot or a jest or addressed accordingly. Sound good, sounds great? Beautiful. Want to start with a lube. It's like an icebreaker. But you know, absolutely all right, So let's play a game of fuck Mary or block. We don't kill here, we just do the blocking. Okay,
So fuck Mary or block? Verbal play, food play, nipple play.
You know I'm a writer, it's gonna be verbal play is married.
Yeah, yeah, I would.
I would totally food play, which yes, nothing against nipples, yeah yeah, if but I could live without it?
Oh could I live without nipples? I mean, I love my I love God, I love a pair of nipples, and I love having my nipples played with. But I also need to hear, like you gotta talk to me. So I'm gonna I'm a writer as well, so I'm a verbal I'm gonna marry the verbal. I'm going to nipples or food. Nipples are food.
I love food and food is so fun to play with.
I see, I don't have as much experience playing with the food, and this is what I need to get into. So for the for the sheer fact that I don't have as much experience playing with food, I'll block it because I know that I know what are good to me. I know nipples are good to me. All fucked the nipples. But I do want to get into what how does one introduce themselves to food play? Like, what is the
best way to start? I was talking to Taylor Tomlinson and we were talking about do you start with like mac and che Well, somebody actually wrote in and said they ate ice cream out of somebody's booty hole and we were like, wow, that sounds exciting and messy.
It's not where I would start.
Okay, t got it. Would you start?
So, like, you start somewhere where you're not going to be challenged? Uh huh? And anal stuff is a challenge for a lot of people. If you don't feel comfortable around food, you may not feel comfortable around butts. Yeah, so start with uh, non genital.
Locations for the food, Okay.
And also start with food. One of the reasons I think ice cream is actually good is that you've got temperature that you can play with, and if you're a student, temperature play, ice cream is great for that. You can also do temperature play with things that are warm. Don't go too sticky, though, so like hot fudge, real sticky, difficult to clean up, leaves you feeling regret because of how much laundry.
There is, Yes, that does sound I know my brain is already like, where's the detergent? That's so much?
Yeah, there's a lot of laundry involved in food play. So you want to start with something that is not quite so like literally messy.
I love that. Learn something new, okay, last one? Fuck Mary, block spanking, hair pulling, biting.
This is so complicated because like biting, where which hair?
Yes? Yes, fair which hair? Okay? Spanking and can they spank? Well, it's your most ideal, it's your the best spanker. It's wherever you want the hair to be. Best situation, yes, yeah, yeah, the best version of the situation, the most pleasurable version of it.
Again, the stakes are so high. What if I get it wrong?
Oh my god, please don't this up.
Okay, I would probably, I would probably since it's the one I forgot. I would probably block biting, okay, probably fuck hair pulling and Mary spanking.
Ooh, I actually think I'm the same with you. I would marry spanking. I would fuck hair pulling because you have to do it right. And I would block the biting only because I don't know I've experienced it, but like I haven't experienced it to the to the degree that I know that some people experience pleasure from.
It because it leaves a mark.
That's fair. That's fair. And people don't even know what you're doing.
I went through piggys when I was in high school, and you're like.
I don't need to we don't need to know, we don't need to know. Hey, Emily, you won the game. You won, you got an A plus and you win my unconditional love. It is really the stakes are high, but the rewards are higher. Do you know.
You know what? Just a gold star is all I need?
Just a gold stars. I'm sending you a scratch and sniffstick car because those were the fuzzy texture. They're the best. Ye they're the best, y'all. If you're listening, you are listening, obviously, Phileas. Feel free to send your blue breaker prompt or messy stories to tell me something messy at gmail dot com. Speaking of which, Emily, can you tell me something messy?
Okay? So, one of the things I talk about a lot is that there's a difference between dealing with the stress in your body and solving the problem that caused the stress in the first place, Like the stress is physiological. You have to do something with your body in order to process the stress, to transition out of the stress state into a relaxation state, which is almost always going to be different from the thing that you do to
solve the problem that activated the stress in the first place. So, for example, if you are at work and your boss says something that like activates your stress response, where you want to like reach across the desk and throttle that person, Like, You're not going to do that. You're going to behave yourself. You're going to say thank you, thank you so much for that feedback, and then and then you're going to go for a run, or lift weights or just like jump up and down in the parking lot and do
a primal scream. Right, Yes, So that's the difference between dealing with the problem versus dealing with the stress. Crying is another example of like a thing that like it doesn't solve the problem, but it can absolutely deal with the stress in your body so that you feel well enough to be able to deal with the problem itself. All of this is to set up that there has in my life been a circumstance where crying absolutely was the necessary part of the solution, and it is. This
was more than twe years ago. I was in grad school and I was with someone who, uh it would I would learn later, was still in love with their ex. And their ex I knew she's this wonderful person that had apparently done a really good job of training this man in oral sex. Turns out this person who are like, I really liked this this I knew the ex enjoyed her as a person. But it turns out that what she likes with oral sex and what I like with oral sex are basically opposite.
God, not the same. Not the same, got it?
Yeah? And so this partner, who has been well trained by the X, continues to do to me what he was trained to do with hard And as I came to understand this, I did all the like grown up,
I've been a sex educator for ten years. Stuff that you do to like, try to communicate effectively about what I want and like, Like I am skilled at communicating in a wide variety of ways about what I want and like both like in an encouraging way in the middle of it, and like later on, like, hey, so when you did that thing I've said before that what I really like, is this kind of sensation And I know that when you do this, I know that, like,
your previous partner really liked this other kind of sensation and that's not it for me. And it gradually got to like and when you continue to do it that way, it makes me feel like you wish you were or you imagine you are still in bed with this other person. And I eventually had to cry in the middle of oral sex in order to communicate in a way that this person could hear that what they were doing made me feel like they were not having sex with me, they were having sex with somebody.
To me.
So almost always, my advice is that, like, crying is not effective and helpful, but sometimes sometimes crying he was effective and helpful, And like, I want to be a person who has never had to cry in order to like get the oral sex I want.
Yeah, yeah, but that is not the life I've lived.
So did it change? Did it get better? It?
Did it worked?
Wow?
I got rewarded.
You catch a reward. You've tried all the tactics, and the final tactic was the crying, which.
I didn't want to do because it felt manipulative. Because I was able not to cry, but I was like fighting tears and I was like, you know what.
Fuck this, fuckett, let this release it. I'm not going to release the stress.
Yeah, I'm gonna release the stress. It's going to impact him. And uh like he may feel manipulated, but like I have had, this has been weeks.
Yes, listen, have you tried all the tactics and then you're like it's not working? Then I feel like you pull out the red card, the cry card, that's right, and make it happen. Wait have you ever have you cried during sex in a you know, transformative transformation? Yeah?
So many times?
Yeah, yeah, what happened the first time? Because I only experienced that for the first time a couple of years ago, and I remember, like it was with my husband, and I remember like being so confused by it because I didn't know that you could crush because I associate crying with bad things or hav any and the sad things or have stress. Yes, so crying during like sex was just like, wait, what what are all these emotions? Did
when it happened for you? Did you understand that it was possible to cry during sex or was it a new sensation or what was the experience.
I am extra sensitive to my body sensations, so I have had a meditation practice since I was fifteen. I'm like super connected and engaged with my own body and its sensations and emotions, and I have a really non judgmental approach to all of my internal experiences.
Yeah, so which helped.
Boy, you want to have great sex, and meditation practice completely helps with.
That agreed agreat. Guess. Yeah.
It supper helps because it means that you can be aware of the sensations happening in your body, can be aware of what's going on with your partner. You can tune in really finely and deeply to what's going on with your partner. Yeah, which is like that fine tune attention to your partners. How you get to simultaneous orgasms, which isn't like a goal anybody needs to have, but
it sure is fun. Yes, And that is the circumstance where I had my first like crying orgasm, like ugly, not dripping, like mid orgasm, just like wrapping every limb I have around my partner and like he's sobbing too. And I was nineteen what yeah, wow, yeah, wow.
You were able to have that kind of moment at nineteen Yeah.
Years of a regular meditation practice in Wow, and this is only my second partner.
That's incredible.
Let me say that my first partner was like abusive and terrible. Yeah, so I learned fast. By the time I got to my second partner, I was like solving orgasm quality. Yeah.
Yeah, abusive partners. Will you know I was in before my husband. I was in an emotional abusive relationship for about two years. And one thing I will say is when you maybe it's not true all the time, but like when you are out of that, when you find your way out of that, you get tuned in real quick. We had like the Spidey senses out of I think defense and protection, but the Spidey senses really raise up because you're like, oh, I'm not trying to repeat that again,
and it makes you have to think. I think it made me curious about who I am and what my body does and what my what my personhood does. It just made me have to be far more curious because it was like, oh, I found myself dependent on this person in a way that I don't want to ever be dependent again. And so it just like I don't know, it forces you to reflect and for better or worse, I think get in touch with your body, which that yeah makes And yet it.
Was more than thirty years ago for me and my uh predator radar. Yeah, Like I mean I can tell from seeing somebody on television.
Yeah, like, oh it's not a good person. Yeah you can. It's funny, you can. You can smell it, Like once you're tuned in, You're.
Like, yeah, once you have the like tingly spidy sense, like you said, like, it doesn't go away, because how's it one trial learning? Like, once you have the experience once and you recognize it for what it is, and you're like, I'm never gonna get in that position ever again. Yeah, once you get there, like from a distance, you can spot that person so that you never get so close that you get pulled in again.
I couldn't agree more. You know what this makes me want to actually zoom out a little bit, which is you've had this transfer the transformational crime sex at nineteen, You've written this fantastic book that, by the way I do this thing on this podcast came out of me doing this Instagram series called Messy Wendays where I would tell people to tell me something good or messy, And so we were just always talking about sex every Monday on Instagram and your book would be one of the
books that would constantly come up and people are like, oh my god, you have to read it. Come as you are, because the whole thing was no judgment, no shame. How do we talk about our bodies without judgment, without shame? And you do such an incredible job in your book of approaching that not just saying don't be judgmental, but this is how you do it. But I guess I'm curious how you even decided to write a book and
liberate people to themselves. Like, what was it that happened for you that was like, Oh, this information needs to get out there. People need to know their bodies.
So I'm born and raised in Delaware, which here's my actual humble brag. Delaware is such a small state that my tenth grade English teacher was doctor Jill Biden.
Whoa because okay, wow.
So so I was a big old nerd. I was like honors classes and all that stuff. And I knew when I got to college, went to University of Delaware, that I was going to be going to grad school though I had no idea for what. So I knew I needed some volunteer work on my resume to look like a good candidate for grad school. And a guy on my floor was pre med and he said, come be a pure health educator with me. And I was like,
I like health, why not? So I did. I got trained to go into residence halls to talk about condom's contraception and consent. And I should say, like, this is
my first year in college. I'm eighteen, So at the same time that I'm being trained to talk about these ideas, this is the same time that I'm having this abusive relationship the first year in college, which maybe I should attribute part of why my second relationship was so vastly much better is because I had the good fortune of being formally trained in like sex education and communication skills.
Right with one year of that training under my belt, I was already much better at identifying good dynamics and communicating effectively and allowing myself to be in connection during a sexual experience. So I started my training as a sex educator like as soon as I got to college, I got a master's degree in counseling psychology. I started that thinking I would be a sex therapist, realized about halfway through, I do not have the magical thing that some people have to sit with clients and be.
Like, yeah, what is that like for you?
Yeah, but I am a woman who likes to be in charge of things. And so I stayed in school and got a PhD in public health, concentrating in all of these in human sexuality. Uh So, my got a job at Smith College as the director of Wellness Education, where I taught a class called Women's Sexuality. The first semester that I taught that class was very intense, and my last question on the final exam was just tell me one important thing you learned. It can be anything
at all. Just take the question seriously and you will get the two points. Because they, like me, really took it seriously and they needed the points.
They wanted to go star my age right.
And I thought they were going to write things like, oh, some specific piece of the science like arousalkno concordance. They were going to write about attachment theory or whatever. And instead, out of one hundred and eighty seven students, more than half of them wrote, I learned I'm normal. I'm normal, I'm not broken. There's nothing wrong with me just because I'm different from other people. I can trust my body
because I know I'm normal. I don't know if you've ever graded final exams, but it is not usually like this. I was sitting in my office grading with tears in my eyes.
I was going to say, you gotta cry when you read that.
Yeah. It was overwhelming, and I wanted to do it again. Yeah, and I wanted to do it at a larger scale and in a way that could reach people who were not at Smith College.
Yeah.
And that's the day I decided to come as you are four and a half years later.
I have chills hearing that, because I think that that is why why I'm screaming your book to anyone who will And you don't need my help, like I know a lot of people have it, but the additional additional people, especially you know, queer folks men. I'm like, everybody, read this book because you will learn that you're normal. Because I think the thing that I've experienced in doing this work is people feel like they are alone or that they are the suffering is that they feel like they
should be something that they're not. And at the end of your book, you which I've been saying for the last couple of days to anyone who will listen, is about the map versus the terrain. Yeah, because that felt so important to me. And will you actually talk about that concept. I'll let you break it down for the listeners.
Sure. So a map is a portrait or an image or a representation of something that actually exists. And if you're following a map, like if you're walking along a trail through a forest, following the trail on the forest, and the trail goes away in front of you, and you're like, but it says in the map it's right here. You can either decide that like, the map is wrong, that's not where the trail is and you're gonna need
to find a different path. Or you can be like, no, no, no, the trail must be here, And so you're like tramping through, struggling, getting more and more lost because you believe it. Surely, if the choice is between the map being wrong and you being wrong, I must be wrong. The map must be right. It must be me that's wrong and broken, and like the map says the trail is here, the map must be right, and there's something wrong with me.
Every single time you have a script. If you have a script in your head about who you're supposed to be as a sexual person, what sex is supposed to feel like for you, who your partner is supposed to be, or what your relationships are supposed to be like if there's a breakdown between the map you have in your head and what's actually true for you, what's actually true for you is what's correct, and the map is fucking wrong every time.
Yeah, like realizing the map is wrong and you don't have to fit the map, like trust the terrain, trust your experience, trust that if something feels off or something feels good like that is that's what's right, not what you've been told you should you should be, or want
or desire. And I think that that's so liberating. And the reason I think your book is also c liberating is because for me, on my sexual journey, it's been having to accept who I am and accept that I do not respond in the ways that maybe my partners do or in the way that gay men have and like, and I've felt like, well, I'm just marching to my own drum, and your book really just actually affirmed all
of it. And so there was there was like a breath because it's like, oh, I'm just like you know, how fuck ever, fuck what everybody else says, and I'm just being me and like this is how I like sex and whatever. But then to have your book be like no, scientifically, yeah you're yeah, fuck what everybody else says.
And they change across their lifespan.
Yeah, yeah, it's it was so liberating. I'm wondering, like, what is maybe the most most is ah won't be the right word, but what are what are some moments or some interactions with readers that you've had that have really kind of been long lasting and touching for you?
Oh? So many. I did an event in Boston where a woman in her seventies told me that a few weeks ago she had had her first orgasm. Oh wow, So I it's official. It's never too late.
It's never too late. I please say that again because I need because I need people to hear this. It's never too.
Late literally literally until you're actually dead. It's never too late.
Yeah. Yeah.
And everybody, everybody, regardless of the age of your body, regardless of the shape, size, structure ability of your body, everybody deserves access to to ecstatic pleasure. And has the capacity to access ecstatic pleasure.
Everybody, like, what's the first step towards you're on your path to ecstatic pleasure? If somebody's listening to like, I don't know what I'm doing, what's that first time.
I'm gonna say, it's gonna like even I would be pissed off with this answer.
Okay, everyone braced yourself.
Mindfulness, mindfulness, fucking mindfulness practice, I know. So what I really mean is learning to be non judgmentally aware of your own internal experience. Because chances are, unless you were raised in some extraordinary place that I have never been to or heard of, you were raised in a way that taught you to feel judgmental and ashamed of a
whole lot of your internal experience. And becoming aware first of all of the experience itself, and then becoming aware of the judgment your brain imposes on those experiences, yeah, is a necessary first step to making a choice about whether or not you want to keep those judgments or if you want to swap them out for a non judgmental, accepting, or even loving attitude toward your internal experience.
When you put it like that, it feels I know, it's not simple, but it does feel far simpler because it's like, what story do you want to choose to believe? Yeah, we're forced. There's so many stories forced onto us about our bodies and our experiences and what they should be and shoulds and shouldn'ts and this and that and you should be like that and not like that, and we've
chosen to believe it, you know, by default. And so I think there's the mindfulness is waking up and saying, well, which stories have I chosen to adopt about my body, about my pleasure? And can I, as you said, swap them out? And can I choose something else? Can I choose something softer?
And I think it's not a choice until you have the awareness because like these ideas, it's not like somebody waited until you were old enough to understand before they asked, like, hey, would be okay with you if I taught you to feel ashamed of your body and guilty about everything related to sex, would that be okay? Nobody would say yes?
Right?
They had been off with the choice, right, right, So.
Like that stuff just got put in our brains and it's there, flourishing, flourishing, and until we recognize that it's there, then we have a choice. Yes, oh this the like this, like self hatred I've been experiencing all these years. That's not something I have to feel.
That's a key component, like to even recognize that you are experiencing that before you can make the shift.
That there is a different experience that's available if you are interested in trying out something new.
It's being radically honest with yourself about how you feel about yourself, which is a scary thing to do. Right. If I think about years before mindfulness or the pursuit of self love, there's a lot of sadness at how I thought about myself. Yes, a lot of you know, oof, like the years, the years, the decades of beating down on myself. And in the.
Business world they call it opportunity cost. Yes, like all the things you could have had if you hadn't spent all those years beating the shit out of yourself. Yes, Like all the pain you could have avoided. It's actually one of the key ingredients in hateful people is that they hate themselves. They're totally married to the idea that they deserve to be hated for those things. And so to see someone who walks around the world loving themselves for having this trait. Wow, that the hateful person.
Believes they deserve to be hated for, Like.
How fucking dare you? I have to actually eliminate your existence. I have to shame and judge you in public so that everybody knows that I understand that that is shameful and no one should be like that. And either I'm gonna hide it if it's something that can be hidden, or I'm going to like advertise that I know that this thing that I cannot hide about myself is shameful, like I already know, so, like you don't have to judge me or beat me up because I'm like the
thing I'm thinking about is fatness. Like I'm a good fat I'm exercising and I am eating a salad, And you don't need to judge in shame me, because trust me, I already judge in shame myself. And that's why I'm gonna judge in shame and excoriate all the fat people walking around the world who love themselves. I cannot tolerate the idea that this is this is me in the
voice of a person who hates themselves. I cannot tolerate the idea that they're is an alternative world where I'm allowed to exist and be kind to myself and experience pleasure and joy in a body that I have been judging and beating up for decades. Yeah, does that make sense?
It absolutely makes sense. The hatred has so much of a how dare you? Yes? But really what you're mad at is is the liberation, because it's like, well, I've lost, Yes, I've lost this many years fighting myself over having this body or whatever. This is how dare you love yourself and be so free?
Dare you be free?
Yeah?
I cannot allow you to be free because then my cage that I have built around myself is I've been trapped all this time and I could have been free.
Absolutely, I trap myself in this cage, and that's it. That's a Well, Interestingly, maybe.
I want to like not have it be too individualistic, because like, let's see that the world puts you in that case.
That's what I'm saying. The world puts you in the case you can get out exactly. It's that that's the key, Like, the world puts you in the cage. But did you lock yourself in? At what point did you lock yourself in that cage and say Okay, this is where I'm at, and everybody needs to be in their cage, as opposed to seeing people free and go oh, I can get free too. Yes, again, which story are you choosing to pick?
It's such a fascinating it's but it's difficult because it requires and I think that this is just a societal thing and a cultural thing. We have a hard time one holding space for multiple truths. We have a hard
time grieving and mourning. And so there's there's a level which I think you do so beautifully in the book where you say I'm so sorry that the world told you these things, And so there is a grief and a mourning for the time lost that you spent beating yourself up or ignoring yourself or not going places because you felt like you were.
We're not having access to like simple basic truths about like what's true about like sexual bodies, what's true about tunitles, what's true about how our brain processes sexual information? Like of course people feel shitty if they don't have access to basic information and the idea that they are allowed that who they are as a sexual person is someone worth being.
Who they are as. A sexual person is someone worth being who can I sit in this for a second with you? Yeah, that is revolutionary if you can get there, like if you can feel that, Yeah, that is revolutionary. Because I think that I don't know if this will make sense, but sometimes when I think about Pride parades, there can be an energy of fuck you, I'm here when I go to Pride here in America, And then I went to Pride in Amsterdam years ago and it was a celebration. It was like, oh, we have a
right to exist. And there's a slight difference. One is a fight and a fuck you middle fingers up, I'm here, Which there's a validity to that, and there's this a necessity to it. But if you're able to get to the space where you know you know, you know, you know, you know that you belong and that you deserve to exist, it's a softer way of existing. It's a softer way
of moving. And I think that that is my hope for anybody on their sexual journey is to know that they that they deserve to exist, that who they are sexually and how they want to exist sexually is a beautiful thing, and that they are normal Ultimately, when I.
Was in my graduate program, I had like a multicultural counseling class, and the semester long project was to identify the population you would struggle the most to work with that you have the most sort of like internalized bias toward, and like work on that, try and undo your bias. And it was the fall of two thousand and one and I was in Indiana and the population I struggled most to work with was religious fundamentalists of all kinds.
And so one of the people I talked to was the head of the Episcopalian church on Main Street in blooming To, Indiana, And I was like, so, what do you do with the rage though? And this so she's a lesbian minister in Indiana in the early two thousands, and we're sitting outside a coffee shop on a beautiful October day, one month after nine to eleven, and she just like sits back in her chair and lets her whole body soften. It was you using the word soften
that made me think of this story. Yeah, And she just says, you take up one hundred percent of the space that you take up and acknowledge that you are entitled to one hundred percent of the space that you take up and no one's going to take it away from you no matter what happens. This is the space that you take up.
On my best day. That's how I would like to live. Yeah, me too, do you know? On my best day? And I know that it's imperfect, But like they're there, that messaging, Emily, that that old school messaging, even at you know, the thirty seven. Even what I might, I can argue that I have a solid ten to fifteen years of like this journey towards seth love under my belt. It's still like a solid six or seven years of this like
oh journey and sexual liberation under my belt. And still there is sometimes an effort that that I have to pull on to allow myself to take up space, a choice to be like I can take this space, this space is mine. I can show up as myself. But the messaging or the like the the I would say, it's like updating the operating system. And so there is
an old operating system that sometimes comes in and goes smaller. No, not like that, you shouldn't do that, and having to fight with that operate yes, yes, quiet don't them, don't let them see you and having to push against that and be like no, no, I belong here and I'm worthy of being here. I can't say enough to read
your book and tell everyone to read it. You know, there are plenty of interviews and things that you've done to talk about breaks and accelerators and responsive, so I know people can find it.
It has actually been totally thrilling to have an interview where it's like, this is the story of my life. I will spend the next thirty years of my life talking about responsive desire, arous on non concordance and the dual control model and that's just real and I accept them. So it has been like super fun to just be like just like the experience of living in the world as a sexual person.
Yes, and that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted to create the space for because it like a gift to me. Oh, I'm so glad because I was like, I know that she's spoken out the ass ye and like we can just offer something different.
Oh, I feel so safe.
Yeah, thank you so much, Emily. This is incredible. I really appreciate it.
My pleasure.
Well, you know, we are hose here, but hose with heart. So before we go, let me speak to yours. I hope that you were geeking out through this interview as much as I am. I hope you had some oh moments, some big oh moments where you're like, oh that that so some things that really stuck out for me. I think one of the biggest things was we were talking about the end, which is it's never too late. My god, It's never too late to have an orgasm. It's never
too late to find your pleasure. I was talking to my husband about somebody who he was talking to who is older, like in their sixties and sixties, a gay person, and they were ready to explore their femininity, and oh my god. Yes. You know. It's like you get to a certain point you're like, oh, you know what, I've done it all, or like it's too late. No, it's
never too late. If you want to explore your sex, your pleasure, your femininity, your masculinity, your gender expression, or you're whatever, whatever it is, just know that it's never too late. Also, I really really value thinking about the stories that we accept and you know, giving ourselves grace for the fact that we are taught to not like who we are. We are taught to hate ourselves. I always say it to to the people who are close
to me and to anyone who will listen. You know, I think the beauty industry is a really big example of that. That the beauty industry as a whole makes its money off of telling us that we are not good enough. Right like, your face doesn't look like this, but if you have this product, it will. Or you are not the right size, but if you do this,
you won't be the right size. You know. All the marketing that we are given from childhood and that we internalize and never gets interrupted, is always feeding us that we're not good enough. It's profitable for us to believe that we're not good enough. I might have said this on the show already, but I'm gonna say it again because let's repeat it. It is profitable for us to not feel good about ourselves. A lot of people profit off of that. But what is devastating is that you end
up believing a lie. And the lie is that you're not good enough, that you're not beautiful, that you're not the right size, that you're not the right skin color, that you're not the right height, that you don't have the right size, dick, that your vulva is wrong, like that your asses, all these things that we adopt is like, oh, this is bad about me, and I have to fix.
I have to fix. I have to fix. When really and truly as you are, my love, if you take nothing else away from this whole fucking show, not just this episode, but from this whole fucking show, you are.
Enough as you are. You are worthy, you are beautiful, You are enough. Do not let these motherfuckers keep lying to you, Okay, if I can, if I can interrupt that for you, you have been lied too. It's not your fault that you may critique and pick it yourself over and over. It is not your fault that when you look in the mirror you don't always.
Love what you see. In fact, you might hate what you see. It's not your fault. You've been wired that way. You've been trained that way so that people can profit, so people can take advantage. But it is now your responsibility to interrupt that, to love yourself the way you deserve to be loved. You're looking for that love elsewhere. You're looking for somebody else to tell you're beautiful. You're looking for somebody else to tell you're worthy, baby. You
have to do that. You have to get about the business. And it's not going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen quickly. But it is a journey that I want you to go on, moment by moment, and you will slip back, but I want you to catch yourself. Look in the mirror. You'll, oh, I start critiquing, catch yourself. Uh huh No no no. My nose is perfect, my lips are perfect, my face is perfect, my body is perfect. Whatever your affirmation is, find it. And when you find
yourself thinking negatively about who you are, interrupt it. Because that cage you do not belong in. That cage, baby, you just don't. What else I mean self love? The importance of self love, which is what we've been talking about, the importance of getting out that cage that the world puts you in, and understanding that you deserve to exist, that you as a sexual being and your sexual desires and your pleasures, all of it matters, and you deserve to be I love you. Okay. So I'm going to
now transition into talking about the fires. So uh, if you can't, that's not where you're at. You can't have that space. I love you. I'll see you next week. But for those of you can, I won't take up too much of your time. I'll just kind of tell you what happened and what I think. I'm emotionally navigating our you know, our apartment was is luckily save our
building and our neighborhood. But the fire did start right behind us, so on Wednesday, you know, the fire started last week Monday or Tuesday, and so we were on high alert and just kind of and forgive me from getting days wrong, but we were just on high alert. Were we were kind of numb, if you will, and and also shocked, just like, what is happening? What do you mean? The Palisades are on fire? What do you mean?
Pasadena and I'll Dina are on fire? And then where we live, without giving away where I live, we live by a trail that is also by a lot of vegetation that is also prone to and very dry and prone to fires. But as we understood it, we were far enough away but also kind of like in between, so we were, you know, kind of diligent, and it was like, let's get it to go bag, even though there was no one saying it was gonna you know, we're just like, let's pack some stuff up. Let's what's
our plan. I was feeling uneasy, and then Wednesday came and it seemed like the fires were still holding up where they were, and we were like kind of feeling, oh, most of the winds are gone, so hopefully it won't come. It won't come to where we are, and so, you know, I think there was like attention on Wednesday morning and Wednesday afternoon, and then I like released, my bags are
still packed. Matthew had to work out of the city, so he was like two hours away working and I just kind of like settled, and I was editing videos. Last week's episode was with Caramo, the week before with Griff, and I hadn't, you know, with the holidays, I hadn't posted these social media clips of the interviews, so I was like editing. I was in my editing zone and
like captioning and whatnot. And then my best friend who lives on the east side of town, was spending the day in my neighborhood, not with me, but with his other best friend who lives close by. So we're just like keeping in touch. And I was like in the middle of finishing up a video, and then my phone buzzes and it's my best friend who says there's a fire in this on this trail that is right behind us. And it was kind of like a I from that point on, I really can't tell you. I just kind
of I locked in. I read that text. I said thank you, and I started loading the car because my fear was that the electricity would go out and I wouldn't be able to get the car out. So he was like, we're taking our cars at the garage. Was like, bet exactly. So I got my car at the garage and then I started loading the car up with my stuff. I called my husband on like I put my AirPods in. I called my husband. I said, hey, this is happening. What do you like? I have your bag? Is there
anything else you need? He told me what like quickly went to grab I got the dog. I got Corey, or beautiful sixty pound pitt who what a lesson in needing to breathe because he started to adopt my energy, which was very anxious, and I couldn't get and usually I can get his harness on quite easily, but I couldn't get his harness on because he was just moving with me. He's like, what's happening? And I was like, okay, bitch,
we gotta breathe. So I took a breath and I put his harness on, and then I got in the car clipped in, and I can't tell you where I was driving. I just like was like get out. And as I was driving down the hill from our place, you know, it was like at first when I was packing the car, like I no one was moving. And then I'm like, I saw one neighbor start to move, and I saw another neighborhood the suitcase. And then by the time I got in the car I was driving down,
people were now starting to rush. And then you've saw cars coming out of garages. And what I can't get out of my head is kind of the sounds of fire alarms just blaring out of all these apartment buildings going down this hill. And it was that like, oh, this is happening. It's not a drill. This is happening.
Like we like we are well right, And so I'm driving down the hill and I'm you know, like with with the community is It's now been announced that there's a fire near us and so anyone, anyone who knows where I live is messaging, like my inbox is filling up with are you okay? Where are you? Da? Da, da da, And you can't answer all of them because I literally do not know where I'm going or what
I'm about to do, what's about to happen. I just know that I need to get away from my building and away from my neighborhood because if anything is to go, it would be us, because we are right by the vegetation. We are like like like literally I didn't but if you but the images are like if you looked in my review mirror, you could just see baby. You could just see those flames and this smoke, and it looks apocalyptic.
Doesn't even begin to describe what it looks like. And with the energy of you know, everyone trying to get to safety at the same time in a very dense part of the city, you just realize, oh, this is really happening. And I was texting one of my other best so so my best friend who told me about the fire. He had he knew where he was going, which was I think east or somewhere. And then I texted with another best friend who was like, I'm in West Hollywood. We can go there, And so I was
like driving tos Hollywood. And then as I was learning was Hollywood, we got kind of noticed that Wes Hollywood was evacuating because the fire was spreading, but there was like another fire, and so I was like, okay, we can't stay here. So I got to them and we packed the car with their stuff, and then I was texting with my partner, my bun, and they were like they just got an evacuation notice as well, and so
it's like, okay, let's get to them. And so you know, my car has just become kind of a school bus, just like picking up these people that I love, and
like checking with other people. And then we're trying to figure out where where to go, and I think changed our minds fifteen eleven times, and finally we're able to find a spot in Long Beach and get there, and yet Matthew there and we all just kind of buckled down in Long Beach for a few days until we were cleared to go back home, or for I think two days, yeah, And and then you know we were told whence we're coming back, and Matthew needed to work out of the city again, and so we were decided
to just all go just like, you know, pack up whatever, pack up whatever was whatever we knew we just couldn't live without, and I even couldn't live without, but just whatever was important since we had another, you know, another shot, if you will. Were there things or their pieces that were irreplaceable how we wanted to pack I had read this post by John Mayer, which I'm gonna butcher it, but it was basically saying, you know, when people were
saying they lost everything. Of course they lost their homes and their you know, their spaces and their apartment buildings, and some people lost people. But inside of losing everything were the memories and these things that kind of remind you that the people who were no longer here existed, you know. I the first thing that I grabbed that
first time was my grandmother's crucifix. I'm not religious, but it's like the only the only thing that I have for my grandmother is her cross that she used to wear every but every day pretty much, but also especially every Sunday, and it hangs above my desk, and so
it's the one thing that I have of hers. And so, you know, in this kind of packing again, it was thinking about what are the you know, what are the pictures or the pieces that are just like that represent people that matter that are no longer here and you just you know, you can't get that back. And so that's how we, I think, chose what we were packing our cars with for this, you know, I would say
self imposed evacuation. The emotions are complicated because you know, we survive something that a lot of people weren't able to or that some people weren't able to survive with their life literally. But also like you know, I know people who have lost their homes now and who have lost their apartment buildings and who are starting over. And my barber is one of them. My my, my barber who I you know, if you know anything about me,
you know I get a haircut. This is like since I was in since I was in college, I get a haircut every week. So I have a very close relationship with every barber that I have as I see them so often. And so my barber, who have had for the last few years, you know, I see him once a week, sometimes I see him twice a week,
depending on what work is. And it lives in Pasadena and so of course, when I found out there was a fire Pasadena, like messaging my people that I know up there, and when he told me, you know, their apartment building burned down, you know, it's just like fuck, you know, the helplessness, the out of and you know that the only one. There are a lot of people that I know who you know. I just got another email yesterday that a coworker lost their home, and it's
a lot. This is I read a post that was like basically driving what we're you know, what we're doing as La City residents, you know, checking in with your community, donating, you know, buying supplies, and just like please it is not business as usual. Please stop emailing us about scheduling meetings. Like we are traumatized and people are handling it differently right and I want to hold space for that. Some people are really numb right now. Some people work is
how they are moving through. They're continuing to take their meetings or and some of us are and some people are just crying, and some of us are cycling through it all. And I want to acknowledge and and say that there is no wrong way to engage with this when you are inside of it. But I do wish that we were allowed to what do I wish I'm going to fumble through this, allow me to say this imperfectly. I wish that it was normal for the expectations to be that they are not normal right now, that we
cannot operate like things are normal. I wish that people felt safe enough to not go to work if they are unable to. But then it's like, well, if you've lost things, or if you feel like you're on the brink, or or if you are or if there's a threat of you losing things and you gotta work right because you got to pay for things, like it's it's and like that's a mind fuck. At this point, I am just sharing with you the the surface level of complexities
that is going on in the city. That's going on with me, that's going on with my community, that's going on with communities at large. There's a lot being navigated. And so if you are outside of l I ask that you just be gentle with those of your people who are in LA right now. Like I said, I'm recording this and fires are still going We're not okay. Even if we say we're okay, we're not okay. People
who've lost their homes are clearly not okay. And people who still have their homes, I want to say, are also not okay. Everyone is doing their best with the capacity they have. My barber decided to come in to work, and so I got to see him and his girlfriend, and you know, I'm so moved by how in good spirits they are. How I mean, they're smiles and they have each other, and you know they are they're acknowledging, you know, the storm, the ship show of it all.
But also like you get really clear about what matters, you get really clear about what's important, and people, your people and your pets becomes really clear that that's what's important. That's where I'm gonna end this, because I have been talking for a minute. And of course you can find fire resources and resources in terms of supporting people who have been impacted by the wildfires in our show notes. Tell me what you love them, and I love you, and I'm grateful for this show to be able to
still talk to you, and we'll talk more soon. I love you. You can find Emily on Instagram at e. Nagowski and a g o s k I or Emilyanogoski dot com. You can find me on Instagram as well at Brandon Kyle Goodman. You can find our podcast at tell Me Something Messy, and you can join our community on the Messy Monday's substack. When you subscribe, you'll get weekly posts,
recommendations on sex and self and so much more. Also, I want to hear from you, so send your topic ideas, your messy stories, your submissions, your game ideas to tell Me Something Messy at gmail dot com. You can also call us at six six nine sixty nine messy. That is six six nine six nine six three seven seven nine. Rate review and share this podcast with all your HOE
and aspiring HOE friends. Really really helps the show out, all right, Until next time, ask about the politics of that dick before you make it spit, make sure they eat the kitty before they beat the kitty, before fucation or suctation communication. And in case you haven't heard it yet, today you are so deeply loved you bye, Thank you so much for listening to tell Me Something Messy. If you all enjoyed the show, send me episode to someone
else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was executive produced by Ali Perry Gabrielle Collins and Yours Truly. Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and the Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.