I also, I don't shoot massive loads. My best friend and I talk about this. How do you don't say something like that? And you know what we do here destroy shame around sex by talking about sex.
Now, let me tell you something messy.
Well, before we jump into the episode, I do want to acknowledge for my American host that this is quite the week, And of course I have thoughts. You know, I consider the show comedy forward and educational. But you know, we're here talking about sex and bodies and I am a black, gay, non binary, first generation American like so the show is inherently political. So if you are interested, I will talk more about my feelings on what has happened this week at the end of the episode, after
Hose with Heart. But for now, let me tell you a messy story. The first time I had penetrative sex was in college. I was eighteen, eighteen years old freshman at NYU. I lived in the dorm. Shout out to anyone at NYU right now, who's been to NYU Third North. It is on Third Avenue Downtown. But the thing about the building is it has three towers, so it was like the north tower of the South tower. And I think the East Tower. I'm pretty sure I was in
the North Tower. But there was this boy. There's always a fucking boy. My god, there's this boy. And what shall we name him?
We'll name him.
Let's name him Leslie. I love, I loved the name Leslie on a boy beautiful. His name is Leslie. So Leslie was in musical theater. So I was a drama major. Leslie was a musical theater major. And the dorms weren't broken up by your departments, just it was a freshman dorm.
But this fucking cuty lived in the East Tower. Yes, across the courtyard.
Now here's the thing about the musical theater boys that I have to acknowledge. Is to me, they were so fucking hot. I don't I don't know what it was. You knew the musical theater boys were gay. Like everybody else was like trying to, you know, be masculine. How you in theater school trying to be masculine is a mystery to me. But everybody was trying to be masculine,
you know, trying to be the leading man. But the musical theater boys they were queens, honey, Okay, they were wearing their skinny dreams from American apparel, their fucking big boushie scarves. Everybody had a purse in the in the in the gay part of the arm, which is, you know, on the elbow. That's not that I like to wear my bag, my little bag on the elbow, the gay part of the arm.
So this Leslie, Leslie had to be I'm six to one. Leslie had to be like six.
Two, lean body and like could do a motherfucking high kick in his sleep. And oh a jawline a jaw oh oh oh drool.
I really wanted to drool all over him.
So one night I went out with him and two or three other friends and we went to this bar that was called Asian Pub, which I hope it's closed down. Terrible name for a pub because no one Asian worked there or ran up. But it was called Asian.
Pub and they would give.
Us eighteen year old's alcohol. That's all I went because they never they never carded, so I was always drinking a mohito. I was always drinking a margarita, a pina colada.
They had me lit up at that place.
So I'm at this table with Leslie and three other people and we are we're drinking and we're eating at Mamee and we're we're Keith King and we're laughing, and uh, Leslie and I have a moment where we lock eyes and he gives me this look that y'all know.
To look I'm talking about is that.
It's that one look where you're like, oh, okay, you're about to mess me the fuck up. Okay, all right, all right, I'm gonna look back. So I gave him a little look back.
You know.
And then as the night came to an end, everyone was going back to their dorms. Leslie and I live in the same dorm as you can imagine. So we walked ourselves back up third half into the dorm and I was gonna go to the North tower.
He was gonna go to.
The East tower across the courtyard. But you know, he was like, do you wanna like watch a movie? I think he's asked me to watch a movie or something like that. And I said, absolutely, of course, I would love to watch a movie with you, less thick, I would love to what let's go. So I went up to the East tower. He had a roommate, I don't remember.
The room is home at the time either way. We go into Leslie's bedroom and he has posters of the shows he's been in, and one of them was this musical Anything Goes, and Anything Goes was my senior year musical, and both of us have.
Played the lead.
I had no business playing I'm not a singer like that, but they cast me seniors, so we both were.
We both played the straight male lead in this musical.
And now here we are on his twin bed underneath the poster about to do something. By the way, this is my first time having sex. Okay, so like I haven't done it yet, and I definitely haven't had queer sex. But my all I know about sex that my dick goes into a hole.
That's all. That's as far as I've gotten.
Okay, Leslie and I are, you know, on the bed we're making out or whatnot. And then Leslie asks, are you a top or a bottom? These musical theater girlies, they they knew more than I did. Now when he said top or bottom, I didn't understand. Now if you don't know what that means. So top, let's just say top is the penetrator and the bottom is the receiver. So he asked you top or bottom. I didn't understand the no one gave gave me my gay guidebook, no one, no one gave me the glossary yet, So he said
top or bottom. I'm not thinking, you know, receive or give. I'm just thinking, oh, like, do you want me to be on top of you? Or would you like me to be on my back? And I'm on the bottom. I'm thinking position. I'm thinking, you know, physical position, not sexual position. So I say bottom because I don't know. I've seen like poorn, like you know, the girl gets on top of the guy and rides the deck and I was like, oh, that's.
That looks like fun. So yeah, I'm a bottom.
So he said, okay, cool Ben, and then he pulls out a condom and his dick, very very hard dick. By the way, the dick is is a I might as well have been a coke can. It was a coke bottle. It was thick, it was girfy, and I was like, oh my god, look at that big fucking dick. But I'm not worried about it until after I say bottom. He starts putting the condom on that coke can, and I.
Was like, oh, that's interesting. Would he need to put a condom on, but okay.
And then suddenly my legs are lifted and he's putting lube on his dick, and then he is promptly entering me. Yeah, it was everything that, everything that you think happened, everything that you feel would happen when a coke can enters you, and it happened to me. I will say I didn't I didn't squeal or anything, but internally I was screw There was a coke can in my guts. I for the for the first time, I was I was undone, I was unhinged, unwell.
He fucked me. Uh and then you pulled out, you know.
We we exchanged some niceties and I took my ass, my sore ass.
I hobbled, I hobbled the itch.
I hobbled to the elevator, hobbled down across the courtyard, hobbled my fucking North Tower elevator got my bit. I have never Ooh, I'm feeling the pain right now. And I got to my room and my roommate asked me why I was walking funny, and I think I told him like I pulled a muscle in glass or some shit.
And that was that was it.
That was my first time having sex, and I learned the difference between the top and a bottom.
Now I love bottoming. But if you are not a bottom and a dick is suddenly inside you, it's surprising. It's shocking.
Baby, it'll gag you something serious. It'll gag you something serious. Okay, that's my messy story. Baby, you know what that means. It's time for a guest. Now, while they get situated, we'll get our messy key. Key started with a whole manifest stoe. Oh my God, repeated after me aloud or in your head. Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to know that sex is not just about penetration, The audacity to advocate for
my pleasure and my boundaries. The strength to not call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or buck bay, for it is better for me to masturbate by myself in peace than to let someone.
Play in my motherfucking face.
Let the community say, oh, helujah. Matthew Raymond pronounced he him his graduated from Boston University in twenty ten and Boston College in twenty twelve. In twenty fifteen, while living in New York, he struck gold when he messaged a talented, funny and stunning young thing on tender. Matthew asked the tender bombshell out on a date in hopes just to get some ass because he already had a one way
ticket to move to Oakland, California in the fall. But that night, instead of falling into some ass.
He fell in love.
His life was changed for the better forever, really elevated, expanded, and gave him a reason to get up in the morning. After a year of long distance, Matthew moved in with his tinderboo. Two years after that, Matthew had the wisdom to want to marry the gorgeous tender miracle in a plan proposal where he and his now spouse took turns getting on their knee and asking the other for their hand in marriage. Matthew, this is a wonderful.
Bio wonder who wrote it?
Matthew says it was the best decision of his life. I don't know who wrote this, but I thought it was you. Since getting married, Matthew has said that his partner is the light of his life, the wind between his ass cheeks, the missing tape measure of his toolbox. Even with two master's degrees, Peace Corps and a successful teaching career ed averging new career as a therapist, Matthew says.
That marrying that beauty from Tinder is still his greatest accomplishment.
Messy patrons, please help me. Welcome my husband.
Matthew Raymond. Mate, welcome to the show.
My goodness, thank you. I didn't realize we were doing a fantasy podcast.
Read. Okay.
One thing you also to know about husband is that he has lived with me. We've been together for nine years now, and he's learned how to throw shade and it's it's quite good.
But I will fight you, honey.
Okay, I know I'm in the other room, so.
Don't get too reckless.
Anyways, to a few messykiki guidelines for you listening and for you Matthew, because you know, we like to have we like to have rules around conversations that keep everyone safe so we can have really great conversations. So one things get to be unprocessed too. Any thoughts or opinions shared have the right to evolve, shift or change today, tomorrow,
ten years from now. And if during the kiki something feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the safe word foosball, which gives a chance to pause and address or pit it accordingly.
Sound good, heavy, sounds wonderful.
Matthew, I would like to start by playing a.
Game, or we'll call it a lube breaker, because obviously.
Ooh, I'm down, let's do it, gorgeous.
So do you know how to play? What you rather?
It's like, I'll give you two options and you tell me which one you rather. Okay, great, just wonderful.
You've went around the block.
Even around the block you were in like grade school and stuff.
Okay, So would you rather never suck dick again or never eat ass again?
WHOA?
I know this is a terrible, terrible decision to me.
I know, I know it's a hard one to start with.
Okay, well, I think I'd probably have to go with never eat ass again, because there's just something about a dick in my mouth filling it. Huh, That like just satisfies so many cravings.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know if I could live without that.
That's fair.
I don't know what I would. I would probably also say, God, I hate to never eat ass again.
But I do love I do love it so much wonderful.
Yeah, you know, it's why I have lollipops.
You know, I walk around the house lollipops because I like having something in my mouth.
Okay, so I guess we're both. We're both saying.
We're just cocksuckers.
We're just cocksuckers.
Oh my god, I feel like flashbacks to fucking middle schools being teased and bully but now we reclaim it cocksuckers. Yes, okay, So would you rather have your nipples clamped or your balls tapped?
I'm I'm I'm gagging because I'm in pain just thinking about either of those. I don't like pain. I'm very pain averse. I'm very sensitive, little baby. We're very sensitive, little baby. I would say, I would rather have my balls tap my nipples. No, no, no, don't come near my nipples with the clamp.
Absolutely, Okay, Well, so I have my nipples pierced. I were there, you okay, he.
Was there, and I had to leave the room.
I did get it, fierce, We got it, per On. Was it Christmas Eve? It was Christmas Eve?
Right, Yeah?
It was Christmas. It was a.
Holiday, and we were spending the holiday in l A. And I have been wanting to get my nipples pierced since I was like in college forever. I've talked about it but been so scared and then I don't, you know, whatever the trauma of the holidays are.
I kind of woke up and was like, I want to get.
A pierced Matthew, and so we took a family trip to the Nipple Shop, a piercing place adornments absolutely, and we chose. I chose the one I wanted, the climp or the pierce that I wanted. And it took forever because they said my nipples were so small that it was taking them longer to somebody is cringing right now that sweating it just it took so long, and the worst part is it eventually fell out and I had to go back and they had to repierce it.
I am glad I was present that you.
Weren't there for that.
I would say, although if you haven't had your balls tapped, it can be kind of hot. I had somebody do that to me once and I was like, oh, I actually kind of enjoyed that, but I'm probably gonna say I would rather wriind it.
Bulls clamped. Then my ball's tapped. Okay, there are tracks. How do you, Matthew?
Would you rather accidentally send a nude to your doctor or your therapist?
Ooh, my doctor is hot, so I would accidentally send my news is hot.
Oh my god, I can't. So we go to the same doctor's office.
We're not going to say which one, but we were to the same doctor's office, and there is one doctor there, or that is, there are doctors that are very true. If there's one in particular who is very, very hot, and I won't go to him because you not touching nothing in my booty. Hall looking like that, sir, you look too good.
No, no, I like it.
You like it. I don't. I'm not here for it. Its so easy, Okay.
I hate that.
I would rather send it to both their ladies, so neither of one of them would like it. So I would rather not send it to anyone. But if I had to choose, if it weren't who let me choose it, not as my actual doctor in therapist, but a doctor or a therapist.
I would choose.
A doctor because I feel like they'd be like, well, it's anatomy.
And there wouldn't be follow up conversations like let's just like why this to me?
And I could be like, oh my godness, I'm so sorry.
I had a wart and I accidentally, I will tell you sorry, I did accidentally send a nude. It was terrified, devastated, like it was my new like one of my new friends that I was working with, and I accident I was like also messaging some boy and I was talking to my girlfriend and I you know, like how it is when you're when you're multitasking, and I.
Accidentally sent a dude.
Absolutely and I accidentally sent a nude to my friend and who is also my coworker, and like we were just getting close.
I was like, oh I god.
She was luckily very she already knew that I was home sexual, was not trying to come on to her, so she was very understanding and loving.
But I was mortified more to fied.
And so now I'm I always double check before I send anything. And I love the unsend feature and I also love thank you Apple for catching up. And I love I love the invisible ink so that like if you you send it on. I don't know if Androids had this, but I know for Apple you can send it in like an invisible way, and so like if you sent an accent, yes, you just be like, hey, don't don't fucking download happen?
Well, fabulous you want Hey, what do I win my unconditional love? Honey?
Yeah, so you get more of it? Okay, you can't have enough of it, it's not fair. Oh wait, look what time it is. It's time for messy Mail, where we read out some of the messy patron stories and submissions. As always, if you have prompts or games or anything like that, or your own messy stories, you can email them to tell me something messy at gmail dot com. And remember everything always remains anonymous. Baby, So we got you now. Speaking of Matthew, tell me something messy all right.
So, as you know, I'm I'm a nature boy. I love to go hiking and camping and be outdoors.
The opposite you won't ever ever.
For some reason unbeknownst to me, I always get really horny when I'm out on nature, okay, really horny. And so I was on this one camping trip and we I went with one of my besties, my best girlfriends, and we were by a river and we always get naked and go skinny dipping, and we also like go and do our own thing and spend some time apart. And so I, being out in nature naked, got horny.
So I started to jerk off while I was in the river, Okay, and not ten or fifteen seconds after I came a whole troop of kayakers and whitewater rafters went right past me down the river. Oh ten or fifteen of them that would have absolutely seen me common orgasm if they were but ten seconds earlier.
Oh my god. Well, kind of a public kink, I guess, which is not what you're going for.
And I didn't.
I didn't. I didn't know it was public at the time. It was a very secluded area. I thought I was safe.
But was your semen floating in the river?
Like with the semen was floating in the river and I had to dip down underwater so they did not see my erect penis?
Wow?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Did you submerge your whole body under the water or just you're like just the bottom half, just the bottom half?
Yeah, okay, I'm just picturing your semen floating and a kayaker going what is that?
They might have Was it a big load? Was it a little load. You come a lot. It was and in nature, yeah, oh wow, the nature of it all, the edging of it all.
Okay, it doesn't it does it for me. There's something about doing it while you're in the sun and fresh air.
You love that stuff. I got allergy.
I love it.
So it's.
It's not you watched me take allergy medicine like twice a day. I'm doing listen for tea like because you're not going to make me out to be crazy on this look on my own damn show. So for context, I have a lot of fucking allergies. It's actually quite annoying. But I finally went to an allergist and I am
taking like these doses of grass and dust occasionally. So it's like it's every morning I take like a little dose for grass, and every night I take a little dose for dust and do it for a few years. I know you do it for a few years and it's supposed to build up your immunity or like whatever. So the point is that I'm hoping to reunite with nature in like three to five years.
Okay, is that fair? Nobody?
Listeners, Do not hold your breath, Do not hold your breath.
Absolutely, I would never listen, I would never lie to you, never hold your breath.
But that's my hope.
My hope is that maybe if it's more comfortable for me, yeah and my immune system, that I will enjoy it because I do.
I love of you.
I love of you. I love seeing the sunset, you know. I love looking at the river and the ocean. I tend to like to look at it from like a rooftop bar. But you know whatever, it's fine.
Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Love a pool side margarita, love a beachside cabana. You know, That's how I tend to enjoy it.
But I'll know I'll get in there, would you?
And then maybe we could, you know, jerk off in nature together one day. Oh maybe it's what maybe one day, but do not hold me to.
A second honeymoon.
Here we go, Oh my goodness. Okay, anyways, all right, the.
Next submission, Uh, fucked the woman I'm seeing six times in twelve hours.
She said it felt.
Like an exorcism. Now, I don't like scary movies. Is an exorcism good?
Not historically, but in this context, I could see how oof you just exercised some demons.
Six times in twelve hours. What's the longest you've ever had sex?
Four? Well, I'm assuming it's not twelve hours straint, but like, no, no, no, no, have you ever done like a twelve hour day of like we're just fucking?
And yes I have in college my boyfriend and I were were rather college.
The stamina nineteen years old, that's stamina.
And there was one evening that we each we each came six times over the course of the night.
Of the night. How was how many hours?
Was thish eight to ten?
Eight to ten hours? And y'all came six times each? Wow, I think the most I've ever come. I would say maybe three or four times. That's a good number, I think, I think, I think, I actually, I think it was three times. Was the most that, like, I had come in one session. It was a couple hours, but you know, because you gotta get it back up. But yeah, okay, it felt like an exorcism, which you know, in this
context does sound lovely. Next question, they said, had sex with a coworker on the couch of his boss's office. So your co worker, maybe their co worker has a different boss or whatever. Either way, had sex with a coworker on the couch of his boss's office.
So, how have you ever done that?
I have never done that. I get nervous if I can get caught. Yeah, I'm not a big like, oh, let's let's get caught. That's that. I get too anxious. I get to in my head, so I can't enjoy something like that very fully.
That's fair. I will say. The closest that I've come to this.
Was in I guess I could say now in college, I was on student council. The building next door to our building didn't have a bunch of like they were moving a new department in there, so most of the offices were empty, and they were moving the student council office into that building as well. But again most of the building was empty still, especially our floor.
But we had an.
Access code as student council members to get into the building after hours. So Okay and my then Boothing would go to the building at night.
I would punch in the little code and we would go up to whatever.
Use of power I suddenly.
We would go to other floor I was, and we would pick an empty office. And I will say that if they if those carpets have not been pulled up since two thousand and nine.
There's some uh uh, there's some.
DNA, some semen on some of those carpets. So that's the closest I've come. But I'm like you, I don't. I don't the the anxiety of getting caught is not fun to me. I don't mind public play, but that if we're all in agreement that that's what is happening here, I'm fine with that. But the idea of like doing it somewhere I'm not supposed to, which I get and I know people find hot. It puts me in my head same, Yeah, it puts me in my head.
Ready for my messy pic.
I'm ready.
Okay, So today I want to talk about something that you know has been mentioned in a bunch of episodes and I keep getting emailed about, which is polyamory.
And so you already if you've been.
Here, if you're new here, hello, But you know that I am in a polyamorous relationship. My husband and I have been together for nine years. We started open and then it slowly went into polyamory. I now have a boyfriend who have been with for.
Almost a year.
And so because we keep getting questions, Matthew and I are going to have this like polyamorous discussion about our journey to polyamory, and so shall we do it?
Uh?
Huh Okay, this one says, can you talk about ethical non monogamy, mismatch and desire communication help?
I need communication tips.
I feel like the conversation needs more time and needs nuance and needs space for that. We are talking about polyamory now a little bit more in culture. But I will say that Matthew and I have been together for nine years. We've been open for what like seven seven those six or seven, Yeah, and we've we've in those six or seven years have seen the conversations go from what the fuck are y'all doing?
To oh your polyo?
So like we've watched culture open up around it. But understand that there is a lot of misunderstandings about what polyamoryan on monogamy is. There's a lot of opinions, a lot of nasty opinions, not so nice opinions about it. And I, you know, what I do on Instagram is is what I do.
And I never want.
To bring my partner into the chaos of what it means for me to be public facing and especially around this subject. And so it made the most sense to me to talk about this with my husband as opposed to just by myself. So we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna get into it. Are you ready to get into it?
Baby? I'm so read I love, We're.
So excited about this. Yes, we've uh. Well, let's start by defining what polyamory is. So.
Polyamory or consensual non monogamy is the practice of having multiple intimate relationships, whether sexual or just romantic, with the full knowledge and consent of all parties involved. Matthew, does that definition feel good to you?
I like that definition. I really love the emphasis on full knowledge and consent of all of all parties. That's very important.
Let me actually messy, key key, Matthew and I are going to talk about polyamorne non monogamy, open relationships and what it means to us and our relationship. But the thing about this conversation is that other people have their own versions of what this looks like, and so please do not take anything that we're saying here as law. This is just a conversation, a jumping off point, something for you to use in your own research or to
use for your own experience. But it's not that this is the way or the only way or the only definitions of things. You'll notice that some people will say that's not polyamory and that's not open or whatever. My feelings about that before we dive in is don't yuck
somebody's yem and stop gatekeeping. I think a lot of times people in oppressed groups or marginalized groups and this has this could be about polyamory, this could be about race, this could be about gender sexual orientation will then begin to gate keep themselves and it's like, no, we should all just be trying to get free. And so whatever works for you. As I always say, as long as
you're not hurting yourself or anybody else, go off. So we started our relationship as open, and I would define open. The difference for me between open and Polly is that the openness was not about intimate relationships. The openness was just about being able to have sex with other people.
Would you agree?
Yeah? And in fact, when we first opened so we had been monogamous for about two years or so, and the first time we opened it, we actually had a rule of no penetrative sex.
Mm hmm, yeah.
So it was just engaging sexually with others, but we weren't penetrating, and then eventually we talked about penetrating and how do we do that safely?
And yeah, it was we were like, you know, it's like if you're out at a club and you meet a hottie and you want to make out with them and you want to go into the bathroom and give them a blow job, like go off, Like I'm not pressed about that, but yeah, it did start.
And I think the beauty if.
You bring up a point that it didn't start with penetrative is that I think sometimes when people want to open their relationships or move into polly, they want to go to ten right away, right And it's very fine for you to start at one or two, which is like, hey, we're going to open this, but there are a couple rules here, a bunch of rules here, because you're also still building trust inside of the relationship and wanting space for failure to happen so that you can learn and
process and grow together before expanding it even further. If it's all, if it's a free for all, if you are not yourself, if you don't identify as a polyamorous person or a non monogamous person. Then to start at attend is not necessarily the.
I want to.
Say, the safest emotionally safe is really what we're talking about, because we've been indoctrinated in the monogamous culture. So why would you suddenly know how to do non monogamy or polyamory when you haven't seen it. So we started open, and then this is how I remember it kind of expanding, was that we were open and correct me if I'm wrong.
I think Matthew was having a good.
Time and I was having a harder time because what I realized and what I learned through this whole journey and through this polyamor's journey, was that hookups.
Didn't do it for me.
That I had a harder time just like meeting somebody and hooking up and then being done with it. Even as we moved into penetrative or the rules of penetration being allowed, I just had a hard time. I needed connection, I needed intimacy. And so we gradually started to I think, work our way into expanding the definition of what open.
Could look like.
We're not I don't think we were quite at Polly. So it wasn't quite like, oh, you're in a relationships with other people. It was just the ability to have an emotional connection was introduced, that this could be really your friend, a little you know, a little your friend with benefits, something that you have an emotional connection to.
Would you agree?
I agree, Yeah, just like some consistency. And and I even found that with myself that I like, if I was with somebody that I liked, I liked what the sex was like, I liked them as a person, I wanted to keep going back. I wanted to maintain that connection and build on that connection. Yes, And so I think I think I think we both just naturally are very emotional relational people, and so we kind of in our own ways gravitated towards that.
Yeah, because sometimes with open relationships, I think I think this was our original rule.
It was kind of like a one and done.
Yes, like you couldn't do repeats, which is I think a normal rule that some people have when they open the relationship because you're trying to avoid the emotional.
Attachment, the emotional connection.
Yes, another rule of ours, which is still a rule which I would say, Now we have a lot less rules in our in our poly life, but we don't fuck each other's friends is a is a big rule.
So listen, we're in Los Angeles, and so you have to really define what a friend is, because I do, because because like he's like, I could meet somebody and math you could meet somebody and we could, oh we're cool, but they're not friends enough yet, and so we don't know that either of us has a relationship with that person. So we were like, if that happens, and like, you fuck that person and then you find out after that it's somebody that I'm a friend of, no problem whatever.
But if we knowingly know that this is, you know, one of our friends, then it's off the table.
Off the table, yeah, and not you.
Know, listen, I'm not saying that you can't that it can't work for another relationship, but for us, it felt like this is a this is a guard rail that feels important so that we can preserve friendships, yes, preserve our individual friendships, not get anything muddy or complicated. So it was a rule that there's no sex with each other's friends. And then when do you think that we like fully stepped into the poll of it all, Like how many years were we in?
I feel like I feel like it was around three years ago. Maybe I think we had been open for three years, give or take.
I think what happened was, yes, you're right, because three years ago I had met somebody and I was.
Yes, yeah, I was seeing someone very consistently same thing. It was originally very very sex based, but we just sort of hit it off. Our personalities really went well together, we developed feelings for each other, and I think that was the first time that I was like, oh, okay, this is different than being in an open relationship. And so I remember you and I having a conversation over dinner one night, like how do we feel about the
idea of bringing relationship into our nominogamy? What would that look like? What would that feel like? And I think we were able to just have a really open, curious conversation about like, what's the intention behind that, where could that go? What is each of our individual capacity to handle that? And it sort of just came, as it has through most of this journey, that we were both very on the same page, very like, yeah, I love connecting deeply to someone, I love getting to know someone.
I love being able to give part of myself to someone. And that doesn't mean that you my partner is going to get any less of me.
You saying that makes me you know when this person asks for tips, it's communic communication. It's like the number one thing. The only way this works is if you and your partner are willing to be radically transparent with each other. And you know, one of the things that it's also going to come up and we can talk about this is jealousy. That's a big question that comes up around you know, non monogamy, open relationships, and polymory.
But you have nothing if you are not able to communicate and if anything being you know, open and non monogamous and Polly has forced us to get better at communicating and to be able to say, oh, this makes me feel some type of way and what is that? Or I need this from you, or like you can't guess there's too many emotions happening. And the other reason the communication is important is because Matthew and I in our marriage, we're married to each other, we're tied to
each other, and so there's a solidness there. But if we are having relationships outside, that person may not have a partner. They might they may not, but there they
don't have the same quote unquote safety net. And so I do think what I've learned in this journey is that it's our responsibility as the coupled to also be able to show up for them, not that we have to be there there like their husband, but that we're being sensitive to their needs and their heart and preempting things right and asking the questions because I think sometimes feedback that I've gotten has been people afraid of asking for what they need because they don't want to overstep
the marriage, if that makes sense. And so I've learned that, oh, what that ends up doing is that I'm not able to meet your needs because I don't know that what you're asking for. And so I've learned that as the coupled partner that I have to ask my you know, single partner more questions, more directly, what do you need?
Are you feeling okay? You said this thing? Is that really what you mean? Do you need?
Like you having to not just be honest when someone asks the question, but to ask the questions.
Does that make sense? Oh? Yes, absolutely, to be willing to say are you jealous in this moment? Or how did that make you feel? Or what do you need?
Like being able to ask those questions is as equally as important as answering a question.
Honestly, Yeah, I found it incredibly helpful to be able to relay to my other partners just how solid you and I are and how much we communicate, so that they don't have that fear of like, oh gosh, like am I coming in and going to interrupt something? Am I going to cause drama? And so really being able to put them at ease, like you do not need to worry about that, like we have this figured out.
If something comes up, we talk about it. What's really important is that you feel safe and comfortable being able to share.
Yes.
I also think it's worth to note here, you know, we opened and entered polyamory from a place of like how do we add how do we have abundance? We love each other, and how do we love more? Yeah, we didn't get into it as like a oh, we're not doing so well. Let's see if we try this out and that will make things better. I think that that can be successful. Maybe that is a thing that can and help your relationship. But I feel like if you're starting with those cracks in the relationship where things
aren't one hundred percent sturdy. Then there it's more likely someone could come in and interrupt it.
But yeah, yeah, I love that that it's it's something that you're doing as to add to the relationship, not fix the relationship. Let's talk about sleepovers. So when we started, you know, I have a so I have a boyfriend now, which hopefully when this comes out, I will still have a boyfriend in so many months, but as of today when we're recording this, I have a boyfriend. And so sleepovers started to become part of the equation because usually
we just like didn't we didn't do sleepovers. We knew that I think we knew that like a sleepover if we kept being polly and kept developing the relationships that would need to come on the table. But for us, we originally were feeling like, no sleepovers if both of us are in the same city. So if you're in a different city, if I'm out of town, you're out of town, like go off to your thing. But if
we're both within the same city, let's not. But now that I have a boyfriend, it came up this, you know, sleepovers. And so I give a lot of credit to my husband, to Matthew, because we had the conversation, and I was like, I know this is something that this was, this was the thing that.
Made you uncomfortable.
And I would say Matthew had the rule that we were respecting, which is no sleepovers. But in wanting to you know, expand our our situation and and and take into consideration this new heart that is part of our relationship. And when I say part of our relationship, I don't mean like in a threuple, it's my boyfriend. Matthew does not. Matthew is the metamure, which I should define as well, which is your your partner's partner. That's what a meta mirrors.
So we wanted to you know, expand or the rules, and so it was really about testing it. And so I think I came to you and said, I want to talk about sleepovers. Yes, I think that you know, I know that my part my boyfriend wants to do a sleepover and I would like to sleepover. But I know this makes you uncomfortable. So what like, let's talk about what makes you uncomfortable. And where we landed was
let's try it. And the reason I think this is so important is because one of my dear friends from college, she is married to a man, and her husband has a girlfriend, and during the pandemic, all three of them moved in together. And my friend, she said to me, when I first met the girlfriend and had the girl and the idea of the girlfriend living in the house, I thought I was supposed to be jealous. I was
taught that I was supposed to be jealous. But what ended up happening was I as somebody in the house doing the dishes and cooking.
The food, and like, you know what I didn't want to do with my husband.
Like there she was to deal with it, and she was like I felt so free, and it was like, oh, sometimes you think you're supposed to be jealous, and so you're preempting the jealousy as opposed to if you actually do it and experience it, you're like, oh, I actually didn't feel anything at all. And so our strategy for the sleepover was one give advance notice, so here's the day that the sleepover.
Is gonna happen.
And then the deal was when I came back, we would process and be like, how was that?
Did it feel? Weird?
What you know, if you hated it or not hated it, And so that's what we did, and when we when I came home, what was your experience?
Like? It was fine, Like, I know, I caught myself being okay, like what are my actual feelings here? Right? Like kind of like what you were saying. There was a moment of like, huh, I could easily lean into the like yeah, you're gone and I'm alone and this doesn't feel good. But that wasn't authentic. That's not what I was feeling. I was actually like completely fine with it. And I think part of the reason I was fine with it is because I had a say in it,
had I had a decision power in it. And because of that, because you allowed me to have agency and acknowledge that this is going to impact me and affect me so I do play a role in whether it happens or not. Allowed me to be like great, cool, I'm I am saying I'm okay with this, And if I do have feelings, then it's not like I'm going to resent you or be mad at you because you tried to make this thing happen. But it was like no, I was a willing participant.
Yeah, that's so important one that you get to have your feelings and that inside of this like that no one's saying you're not gonna get jealous, you get to
be jealous. I think it's like, well, how do we communicate about that jealousy and finding out if that jealousy is even actually there sometimes, but I love the idea of giving you agency, like don't just do something and then tell your partner later and hope Like it's like, let's talk about the thing, and then we were both participating in it, and we can find a way to participate in a way that keeps us both emotionally safe.
I think the biggest thing I've gained is knowing a part of myself, part of my identity that I didn't know before, which is just how much I love love, And like, I've always sort of had that idea in my head but never really had the language or the
ability to express it in this way. But I just love loving people any way, shape or form, and being polyamorous has allowed me to really expand what love looks like and really own the fact that I have such a reserve of it to give, and being able to give it to people, to different people in different ways has been so fulfilling.
I think I've always been Polly but didn't have the language for it, because when I look back at the relationships before you and I got together, and even when you and I first got together, I was never able to see the finish line. I was never able to see myself old with that same person on the rocking chair, like the thing you're taught, which is like we're gonna be together forever, We're gonna grow old together. I could never see, like the pressure of that always felt crushing.
But I did not get in relationships because I couldn't see it. I was like, well, I'll get there when I get there. And so you know, when we first got together, Matthew actually said out loud like I'm not into non monogamy.
I don't want to have an open relationship.
Matthew was also the one two years later to bring non monogamy to the table, and both times I was very blase about it. The first time I was like, okay, like I'm not gonna fight for non monogamy because I don't really know what that means either, like I should want to be with you forever anyway.
And then when he did.
Bring it to the table, I was like okay, yeah, like I have no I've actually never had an issue with non monogamy. For me, it's always been about or even cheating, quote unquote. It's always been about the lying. It's never about the person fucking somebody else. I've never like, that's like it's the lack of jealousy that I have has never been about, you know, the person fucking somebody else and not me. It was always the lying about it. So it was like, as long as we're open with
each other about what we're doing, I'm fine. I'm great with it. What I think I've gained though from polyamory, which I wasn't expecting, Apart from I think stepping into a piece of myself that's always kind of existed, and this expansion of love is learning in our relationship. We can only do so much for each other. Yeah, just with our different backgrounds, our different identities, There's only so
much that you and I can connect with. And this, I think for me, what I would say is a false idea that your partner should be responsible for all of your needs and should be able to connect with you on everything. It's like, no, there's a reason why you don't have like only one friend, right, you have a couple of friends, because each of them brings I think somebody I had heard somebody talk about as a mosaic, like stop wanting your friends to be perfect. They're a
mosaic of your life. And so every person doesn't have to fulfill every need. They fulfill their buckets. I think the same is true in a romantic relationship. It's like this one partner doesn't have to be responsible for me feeling all the things, for me getting all my cups filled. There are other partners that can be part of that. One of the things that I always talk about is, and we'll go back to it, hiking. I don't bin at a camp. Hiking and camping is incredibly important to Matthew.
It's not something I do instead of it's.
Not something I do period period.
But instead of like forcing me to go on the hike or the camp that my New Yorker ass doesn't want to go on, Matthew has another partner who does that with them. I'm obsessed, Like I can listen to music all the way the house down, Matthew is not. He's not like, oh, I'm going to walk around the
house with some new music. So like having a partner that I can relate with that on is really beautiful, and it just frees up the pressure off of our marriage and allows our marriage to be to me, a very soft landing space because all the needs don't have to be filled here. So our relationship for me gets to be so safe and so soft because I'm not responsible for everything and you're not responsible for my everything.
And we learned so much from these other partners that also informs this marriage as well, and so that's what I think, that's what I've gained, is just being able to know more of myself, being able to heal parts of myself, being able to activate parts of myself.
That I didn't know.
We're dormant, which has nothing to do with this marriage, because again, like your marriage, that one relationship can only do so much, So it's just it's about an expansion.
The other benefit is that you get to really own that you have lots of needs and all of those needs deserve to be met. I think a lot of times people in relationships run into it like, oh, my partner, like my partner doesn't like hiking camping. Therefore I'm going to just reject and deny this need. I'm not going to go hiking. I'm not going to go camping because my partner doesn't want to. I don't want to force them to do it, so I'm just going to give
it up. But instead it's like no, okay, So I'm not going to get this with Brandon, but I am still going to get this because it is still in need that matters.
Yes, And by the way, this is not like a This is not a PSA for poly like if monogamy works for you, beautiful, this conversation is really like, oh, there's other ways of being in relationship, and this is what we've gained from it. I want I want to paint a picture of this isn't you know the myths that we see where like everyone's jealous or everyone you know,
y'all just trying to fuck each other. I think I saw a myth was like you just want to pass less taxes and like, yeah, what do we like, get out of here?
Get out of here? We could?
Okay, So my love The last question, which I think you know to take it back to the to the submission, which is what are your tips for a new couple wanting to explore non monogamy but having mismatched desires.
Ooh yeah, I would say take it slow and really understand that although your desires may be different, they both are valid, they both matter whatever they are, And I think instead of falling into the trap of binary thinking, look for creative solutions, like it doesn't have to be we do this or we do that. What's a third or fourth, a fifth way that you can go about trying to do this so that everyone can feel safe,
everyone can get their needs met. And maybe that does mean you move a little slower than one partner wants to or a little faster than one partner wants to. But as long as you're continuously checking in and saying, okay, how are we at. What's our barometer meter right now? You'll get to where you want to get to.
I think the key word in your question is explore. Right, It's an exploration, and you're doing it together. This is your teammates, even if we have mismatched desires, like this is my teammate and we're exploring this thing.
It's not going to be perfect. In fact, it's going to be.
Messy, messy, So like knowing that ahead of time and allowing the space for failure, for imperfection, for you to get it wrong, as long as you know, oh, this is how we talk about it, how we process, and how we move forward, and you might actually find it requires such radical conversations that you might actually find that there are a lot of places where your desires do match and you can start from there. The mismatch is fine, it's like, it's good to know what both of you
don't agree on. But in that conversation you'll also find well where is the middle ground? Yes, And as Matthew said, you know, starts slow. So we start with the tiny little thing, which is we both agree to threesome, so we both agree that kissing is fine, or we both agree when we're out of like the small thing, and then you can as that feels good and that feels solid, then you can expand from there. I can't impress enough that Matthew and I have been together for nine years.
We've been h Nomena Goes for six or seven years, so it's been where we were six seven years ago is not where we are now. And it was a very slow build and I'm very grateful for that.
And I think the part of that in that build is also to recognize what you're doing individually is you're dismantling your internalized heteronormativity. You were given all of these rules about what it means to be in relationship and what was a trusting, loving relationship, and what you're doing and opening up is you're interrogating that and you're asking different questions. How can we still maintain trust and love but not doing it the way we've been taught And that takes time.
That takes time. Matthew, thank you so much for being here.
I love for having me my love. I love you, believe.
I'll talk to you Okay, Bye bye.
I love my husband. He's the best and I'm so glad that he was here today. You already know we're hoes here, but hose with heart.
So before we.
Get out of here, let me speak to yours, my love. No matter what the whole point of this show is to create a safe space for everyone, whatever your background, whatever your identity, whatever your relationship to sex is, whatever your relationship to yourself is. I want you to feel safe, and so I want to remind you that you're accepted and you're loved here, and that if you don't have a community right now, if you don't have a place
where you feel like you can really be yourself. I hope that this will be a bridge until you find that irl community. But no matter what, if you take nothing away, just remember that you matter, that your pleasure matters, that your boundaries matter, that your heart matters, that your life matters, that you my love, you matter.
This is one of them when you wonder what your role is in this country and what your future is in it. How precise are you're going to reconcile yourself to your situation here and how you are going to communicate.
That you are here.
I'm terrified at the morrow abbathey, the death of the heart, which is happening in my country.
So that is the audio of James Baldwin, which I think perfectly sums up how I'm feeling, and I imagine how you're feeling as well, which is like, what what.
Do we do?
And I don't know if right now is the time? You know, this is as I'm recording this, This is Wednesday. You're gonna hear this on Thursday or whenever you end up listening to it. So it feels a little too soon to know exactly what the moves are. But I will just share my experience. Of course I am sad. Of course I am shocked. I'm not surprised, though. It was so interesting talking to my white friends this morning
versus talking to my black friends this morning. My white friends seemed a little more surprised than my black friends, which I think is for obvious reasons. To live in this country as a black person, as a queer person, as a woman, as a trans person, is non binary, and then to live at the intersections of all of those things. I think you are aware. I know I am aware of where I live. The first time that this presidency happened was shocking, obviously, coming off the heels
of an Obama to two terms of Obama. So, like you know, we were in our little bubble, and so when we heard the news that Hillary had lost, I swear like gobsmacked, shocked and really had me go, in what ways am I not connected to my country? And what ways am I not connected to the other views that are out there? How have I been in this bubble this time around? I was bracing myself because it felt like, well, if we're if we're coming back around, and this man has an opportunity to run again. That
tells me a lot already. Do I have faith that this country would elect a woman or a black woman? It fucking should. But I'm raised by two dark skinned, immigrant black women, and so you know, I've been up close as to how this country navigates black women. I am non binary, and so I really play, like not play, but I moved through masculinity and femininity. You know, I was at the gym this morning in a sports spra
and coachy shorts. I'm very very aware of how people treat femininity and how people respond and react to it. So again, none of it is surprising, but it is very sobering and sad, and there's grief and there's anger.
Rage.
Actually, that rage and that sadness they really play together. So what does that mean? Because you know, I don't want to, Like at the gym on Monday and a messy patron, a fellow hoe walked up to me as I was walking towards the shower and he was like, how are you feeling about tomorrow? And I was like, I don't know, I voted and all that, and he looked so devastated. He was white, because like I was hoping that you would be you know, I guess more energetic,
more affirming, and I just wasn't. And I felt bad about it because I was like, oh, I feel bad that I'm.
Not more optimistic. Listen. I wasn't like, oh, it's not gonna happen.
But I was just like, I I'm not letting my I'm not hanging my hopes on this. I'm not going to get my hopes up for this. I'm gonna do what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna say what I need to say. I'm gonna have the conversations I need to have. I'm gonna show up how I need to show up. But I'm also there's a lot of evidence here of where I live and this what we are up against. And so I was like, I don't know. And now that it's happened, there are a couple things
that I feel. One it's not a relief, but it's like, Okay, the thing happened. The thing that we were afraid of happening happened, So now I don't need to worry about it happening or not. I don't know if there's a piece in that. It's like it happened, and here we are and we're awake and we have to move forward, and so how do we do that? The other piece I think that came up for me is how do I protect the people that I love most? That we
are more vulnerable than we ever been, y'all. This is I really came into this booth like, oh, I don't know what I'm gonna say about this, but I know I need to say something.
So forgive me.
As I'm processing, you're like literally hearing me process this with you out loud in real time, and so it's not as articulate as I would like it to be, because this is not an articulate time. It's a really imperfect, messy, sloppy, fucked up time. And so this thing that I'm sharing also feels that way too. So let me pivot in this way, which is I feel very protective. I feel protective of you. I feel protective of my chosen family. I feel protective of my blood relatives. I feel protective
of my friends, my community. One thing I do know is, no matter what we are in this together, I know that my ancestors have navigated far darker times and have made a way for me to even be sitting here talking to you. I know that the work that we do together is even more important. Us Being able to talk about our bodies, talk about sex, talk about intersectionality, talk about queerness, talk about women's pleasure, queer folks pleasure
is even more important. I know that you know. Saying that I'm pro love and pro choice and pro black and protrans and pro queer and pro hoe is even more important.
Now.
I want you to feel whatever you're feeling, however the sadness comes, however the grief comes, feel it, but also know that you're not alone. That we are in this together. And that's not just some like spiritual bullshit that people say to you know, it's not thoughts and prayers like there is work.
To be done. That is clear.
We are in a country that is divided, that is clear. But there are also vulnerable people in those red states. There are also queer folks and women and people who need gender affirming healthcare, who need the right to abortion access, who deserve to have African American studies, who deserve people to say gay and queer and trans and non binary. There are people that need that and deserve that access. And so for those of us who are in spaces
where we feel safe enough. I do believe it is our responsibility to feel our feels, but to also continue to show up, especially for those who aren't able to. Right now, think about kids, I think about queer kids. I was thinking about oh, thinking about how Paris is burning.
That documentary which if you haven't seen it, highly recommend, and it documents black and brown folks in New York City in the ball culture, and I was thinking about how when that was being filmed, I was little baby, not even thinking about queerness, but that those people who were so unapologetically themselves and found community with each other and were being spit on and harassed and killed still showed up as themselves, still fought to be themselves, and because of them, I'm able to exist.
And so it is.
I can't even imagine not continuing to show up for the next generation that's coming up underneath me, underneath us. I hope you got something out of this, which is that this is devastating, and this is awful and it's tragic, and we need to acknowledge that it's all those things.
But you're not alone. I'm not alone. We will make away.
And I love you more than ever, more than ever, it is important for me to say that I love you, I see you. You matter, who you are, your identity, how you identify it matters. It fucking matters. Do not let some election results persuade you into thinking otherwise. You matter, and I love you? All right, homekeeping and then I'm out of here. You can find Matthew on Instagram at Matthew Underscore Raymond eighteen or his website Matthew Raymondtherapy dot com.
You can find me on Instagram at Brandon Kyle Goodman. You can also join the community on substack, the Messy Monday Substack. When you subscribe, you'll get bonus episodes from the show, essays inspired by the podcast, recommendations, and more. I believe that's Brandon called Goodman dot substack dot com, but if you go on my Instagram or my website you'll find it also.
I want to hear from you.
Send your topic ideas, your submissions, your stories, recommendations, anything to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
You can also call.
Us at six six nine sixty nine messy. Yeah, bitch, I gotta fucking call line.
Okay.
That's six six nine six nine six three seven seven nine for you hos who grew up after Landlines, and make sure you check the show notes because that's where we will have links for the resources, uh you know, some extra material, some extra things for you to dive into based off the conversations we've been having today. And rate, review and share this podcast with all of your HOE or aspiring HOE friends. You know, reading the podcast really helps us get to new listeners and really.
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Please, I'm down. I'm down to save some coin.
I'm always doing much taxes, but I'm down to save some coin, honey, So let me know.
Let me know, and don't forget that.
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That's it, that's.
Everything, get us everything until we meet again. Ask about the politics of that dick before you make it spit.
Make sure they eat.
The kitty before they beat the kitty, before fucation or sucation communication.
And in case you haven't heard it, yet today you are so deeply loved. I love you.
Thank you so much for listening to Tell Me Something Messy. If you all enjoyed the show, the episode to someone else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was executive produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly. Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and The Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.