Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with someone who has a front row seat to the most fascinating things happening in and around tech today. We are joined by Jen Statsky, one of the writers and creators of the hit MAC series Hacks. Jen got her start
as a writer on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. Then she joined the writer's room for some of TV's biggest comedies, including Parks and Recreation, The Good Place, and the web series turned comedy Central sitcom broad City That's the cult favorite from Abby Jacobson an Alama Lazer. Then, back in twenty nineteen, she and her co creators Lucianello and Paul w. Downs pitched Max, the show about two comedians of very
different generations navigating a changing industry. That show is Hacks, a runaway success since it premiered in twenty twenty one. Season four of Hacks is out now and I had the great pleasure of sitting down with Jen to pick her brain about the changing entertainment industry and how things like smartphones and chat GPT or g as I like to call her, are changing the game for writers Hi, Jen, Thank you so much for being here.
Hi Kara, thanks for having me.
I mean, we're going to get into what the show is about this season and how good it is, but I want to talk to you more as like Jen and your experience early on as a comedian and how technology has played into your career as a comedian.
Yeah, totally.
Broad City was a show that was started on YouTube, right, Yeah, yeah, you were discovered as a comic for late night on Twitter.
That's right.
You can't talk that much shit about.
Technology, no, no, no, I'd be pulling up the ladder behind me if I went off on how technology is bad and bad for creative yet.
No.
I mean, I think my rise in television is a very interesting like decade because my first writing job at Latina and Jimmy Fallon came about because it was twenty eleven and it was the time when people were writing jokes on Twitter, and that was like a big way that people were getting discovered. And that is actually something
that I loved about it. It was very much so like the democratization of joke writing that like anybody could write a funny joke and write a bunch of funny jokes and then someone who worked in Hollywood and TV could see it and be like, oh, this person might be really good at this professionally. And yes, Brad City was always we still call it a web series.
Yeah, it felt like web series when it was on Comedy Central. Election. Yeah, I mean that in a very possible.
Way too. Yeah, like it it speaks to how technology and the internet can kind of go around institutions in a way that is helpful, like abing Alana, we're doing upright citizens Trigade Theater in New York at the time, which is where I met them and where Paul Lucci and we all met. But they weren't having and they've spoken in this they weren't having the success in the system that they kind of wish they had had. They weren't getting on a Harald team, which was like the
house team that performed every week. They weren't kind of one of the prominent people in UCB. But they found each other and they had this unique chemistry and they said, like, why don't we just make something? And so that's why they did it. They started as a web series, and what's cool is even though it was a web series, they treated it as important as if it was a show and they believed it could be great, and that's why they said, like, hey, we want to ask Gamy
Polar to be in this episode. And some people probably would have been like, oh, we can't ask Gamy Polar to be in our like little web series, you know. And she did it, and she loved it, and she said, hey, I want to produce this, and that's like what led to it getting on television. But it started as a web series because the traditional path wasn't necessarily working, so they had to do it for themselves.
I mean, and you make a show that is very much institutionally back to now. But I do feel like there is a return to independent television making because we're in a similar place again where like institutions are failing television. They're not failing all television, but institutions are failing a lot of people who want to be creators, who I
think deserve to be creators. And there seems to be this return to this idea that like there shouldn't really be such a barrier to entry for getting people to watch things. And so now that this fifteen year span has gone by where places like Twitter and YouTube really were like foundational for indie comedy. Do you feel as though, as someone who is still very much like involved in indie comedy, that this might be a place again where people can thrive.
Yeah, I mean, I hope. So. I think the thing that's scary is there's a little bit of the pipeline that has been disrupted. Like when I came up, the existence of a network like Comedy Central was so important and wonderful that they were doing original shows because it allowed something like brad City, which started as a web series, to be greenlit at a very low cost and a very hey we're going to give these two women who are so funny and talented but have never done anything,
We're going to give them a shot. And it was relatively low stakes, I think, you know. And now, one thing that I find to be scary is that for the barrier to entry, like you're saying for television, it's really high to go to one of these streamers, to go to one of these networks and say, hey, here's this idea, please give us the money to make it. It feels like there is an incredible amount of pressure
on it to be successful. Like that's really hard, especially in comedy drama is hard to it's hard to get any show picked up, but like comedy that exists in that kind of Comedy Central version of a Workaholics Abroad CEAO, kind of like down and dirty new voices that you've never heard before that are getting their chance at a platform.
It's now really hard I think for people on the business side to take a risk on those people, or at least it's harder because there's so much pressure on shows to be successful right out the gate because of this streaming model. There was a guy, an executive at
a streamer. He's no longer there. We had a lunch and I was like, what are you guys like looking for in comedy and he was like, honestly, hits And I was like, sure, yeah, great, But I think he was being truthful in that, like he's like, it's really hard, I think to get places to invest into a show if it isn't immediately drawing eyeballs because there's such pressure to keep subscribers, and it's like, okay, get rid of it. Do another one, you know, which is to.
Say, how the hell do you know what's going to be a hit? I mean, I just that as a model for how to pick up TV when you think about Hacks, which maybe on its face a show that is sort of invested in telling the stories of Joan Rivers and Philis Diller and Elaine mend Yeah.
But it was like when we pitched, it was like two women talking. I don't know, I'm not so sure about this.
And yet you know it's really worked. So yeah, I mean, I just think it's to me, it's riskier to make your bets on just like the fact that something's gonna be a hit, than to make your bets on something that you like, right.
But I think it's relevant to what you guys talk about in the sense that I do think the influence of tech and streaming becoming the dominant way people consume television kind of has led us to that place, even more so than the old model of broadcast TV or or it's like show but people buy a cable. But you know, I don't know. I think that it's relevant because it's a result of technology coming in and disrupting things well.
And also, nobody who worked in television on the creator side asked for the business to become a technology business, which it now is. I mean, I always say that, like Netflix is Regina George and all of the other streamers are like Caddy Herron and Amanda Sayfreed, like in the sense of there is one streamer and then there's YouTube and there's TikTok, and in that way, it's not the TV business anymore. It's not the movie business anymore.
It's the Netflix business. And then you have a video platform and a social media platform that like dictate the whole business.
Like they all, whether they needed to or not, chase Netflix off this cliff. Netflix is the king of the castle, and everybody else's is like trying to keep up. And it is really interesting to be on the creative side of it. Like running a show, you're on both the creative and business side of it, obviously more so the creative. But I see a lot of pain within the creative community because no one asked for it to become a
tech business. It's fundamentally changed everything, and yet people still came out and have this dream of working in a Hollywood that doesn't really exist anymore.
After the break. More from Jenstatski, co creator and writer of the hit show Hacks, stay with us. I want to go into Hacks a little bit because Hacks on HBO Max, which isn't Netflix.
Which which isn't even HBO Max. I believe it's just MAXX.
Sorry, it's Max. It's Max with the black background. At least it's Matt Black. I don't know, it's not.
It's it's kind of like silver machine to it, Like it does have its a Sheene, not to be confused with Sheen, where I buy a lot of my clothes.
So with Netflix, there seems to be no problem from the top to the bottom to say, look, guys, people are watching other stuff while they're watching your shows, Like, you better start getting your act together, because people are watching YouTube and tiktoks about your shows while they're watching your shows, Like there better be an explosion in the first minute. Somebody better be moving to Paris in the first ten seconds of your show in order for people
to keep watching. Like, as a creator, how much are you considering the various forms of technology that are happening simultaneously while anybody is watching hacks?
Right, Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, the truth is is that you're both very aware of it and worried about it, but also trying to at least in our experience, quiet that noise and not let it interfere with the creative process. No one asked for Hollywood to be changed into tech business. We are still trying to create shows in the same way that we used to,
and it's a very interesting conversation. There's you know, some reports that Netflix has asked people to write dialogue in a way where the characters are out loud speaking I'm going to go to the store, and you know, saying what they're doing, so that a viewer, if they're on their phone, can also just be hearing that and absorbing it as a second screen experience. Now, I find this topic fascinating because never in a million years has anyone
come to us spoken of that. Like the reason I love of being at HBO, Slash Max is Casey Boys and Sarahbbry and everybody. It still very much embodies what I think people think about HBO and the heyday of like Sopranos, where it's like very creator first. Like the idea that they would come to us and talk to us about a second screen experience just I can't imagine it.
And as far as other streamers, I have read the articles and I have heard anecdotal stories about it, but I've yet to hear any like direct like, yes, this happened to me. They said, please write dialogue in this way. So I'm very curious if it's truly like a directive or is it merely bad dialogue that slips through the cracks and then people are retrofitting like, oh, this must
be what's happening because sometimes that, you know. So I write by a dialogue all the time, and then as I rewrite, I'm like, oh, no, how about do it how a human speaks? St like, So it's possible because I and they would never, of course cop to it if a streamer was telling people to do that. I did anecdotally hear this, and this is true because it came from someone who said it happened to them. That there was a process of they were making a show
and they were reviewing the pilot. They were doing notes for the pilot, and the streamer said, Hey, in this dinner scene, could someone order ice cream? And like they were like, you're they're already a dinner, Like, they're at the table, there's food. Could just they could there be ice cream or someone order ice cream or there be I screaming, screaming The person was like why, and they were like, from our research, if there's a dessert in
the first ten minutes, people tend to keep watching. And so for me, yeah, I love dessert.
I wish there was a cake in the beginning of The Sopranos. I would have actually the wire, maybe I would have finished.
The Yeah, in adolescence, he should be in the holding room eating a sheet cake. But that is a story that I did hear that I know to be which is crazy and hacks very much. So we have an episode this season that delves into this very problem. Is that as Hollywood becomes more of a technology based industry, we will get this tremendous amount of data about how
people consume TV and what they respond to. And it's really tricky because if you're running Netflix, if you're running Amazon, if you're running one of these streamers, it is your job to just keep people on your platform and people watching and people subscribing. So, from the purely business side of it, if you know that ice cream keeps people watching, don't you have some responsibility to your shareholders to be like, let's get some more ice cream in there.
Well, and that looking at the not even the viewer, but looking at the product as data as like a data set I think is really interesting, and that is something when Broad City was on YouTube, viewers mattered. I think viewership always mattered on YouTube of like how many
views does this have? But this idea that like each little point of connection that a viewer has to a product that is coming out of this technology company is now of such importance, where like I just don't think there was like this sense of datatization of both content and viewership up until I don't know, ten years ago. And that's I don't know. I'm not saying anything new in that regard, but I do think I have some empathy for people who work for a technology company versus
people who work for a studio. You know, You're right, It's like there was always and I used to think about this all the time, Like I did punch Up on a friend's studio movie, and so I was like working on this like kind of big budget comedy, and I remember being at some of the test screenings, like studios have always done test screenings and had responses, and even that I remember being like.
I don't know, like how much of this is good or not? To go in and find a bunch of people in a mall in Las Vegas, ask them to come see this movie and really change the movie based on their responses. So there's always been a level of gathering data and retrofitting the product to it, which is the very difficulty of making movies and TV being both
art and commerce. But it's like it's gone so much further with technology, Like you're saying, like it's like on steroids now, because it's every single inflection point, it's, oh, this is when they turn it off, this is when they stop watching, this is what they rewatch over and over, and so there's just all this data that is useful to these companies, of course, and it's not so insiduous that they're coming to us and saying like, hey, this
is how we want you to make this show. But it's not hard to imagine a world.
Where it is I watch this season of Hacks, which I think is really great. I'm not going to endorse it. I was not paid to endorse it. I just want to say that I.
Know, well, will you if I pay you, will you endorse it?
Well, I'll endorse it right here. And there's absolutely no bitcoin exchange. There's a terriff on the endorsement. Actually, but the season does deal with this idea of art and commerce. In fact, there's a line I think that is said by Helen Hunt that's like, what is your carpool karaoke? So from your point of view as a show, and her like, what is this season about? And how does a question like that fit into what the season is about?
The best way I can describe it is season three, we were focusing on Deborah going after her dream job with underline under dream, and this season you get your dream job and the word underlined his job. And that's like, how it feels to me is that now it is the rubber meets the road of what does it mean
to get your dream? And what does it mean when your dream is a dream of an industry of the past and now it is your dream in twenty twenty five when as everything we're saying, technology and the way the world has gone and capitalism has fundamentally altered that industry. And to your question before yes and the second episode
Helen Hunt says to them, what's your carpool karaoke? You need to expand the brand equity of Late Night, And for us that was really speaking to this tremendous pressure put on TV and movies and late night included now to exist beyond just the product itself. Like there, it feels like there is such pressure on these companies to be valued as a tech company and maximize growth for in profit for their shareholders that you can feel that downlad pressure that again, it's not just enough to be
a good TV show. You do need to be a hit, Like what are you what value are you bringing to this technology platform?
You guys cast people who've I've found on TikTok, Right, So, like I know about Robbie because I know so Robbie Hoffman has a I'm not gonna give it away, but like has a great role on this season. Jake Shane great role on this season. These are two people who I know from the Internet, which I think is really interesting when we talk about like the positive effects of
the Internet on comedy. Yes, you also have this amazing storyline where TikTok plays in in a very pivotal way and I'm wondering, like, is being online a big part of being in the writer's room. And then secondly, if you can talk a little bit about the way in which technology plays into Late Night and that storyline, it is something that inevitably has to be considered as an online medium, even though it exists on terrestrial television.
Yeah, totally. I mean, I think what you're hitting on is exactly right, which is that we also want to be conscious of the fact that we do consume the Internet, and we do love the Internet, and there are good things about it. And like you know, Meg Stalter who plays Killa, we found her on Instagram, and like you said, Jake Shane, Robbie Hoffman, all these people came to us through that. And so again in my experience in comedy, I have discovered some people that make me how laughing
more than anyone. You know. Chris Fleming is a comedian who's special I produced a couple of years ago and who I still work with, and I know of him because I saw his stand up on the Internet and I was like, this person is unbelievably funny to me. And so it wouldn't be fair of us to just make a season that's going like did the Internet ruin everything? You know? Like that's that would be a very Pollyanna
take that isn't true. And so I think we also this season are exploring, like are very at least for myself, like my own conflicted feelings about it, because I get a lot from the Internet. I discover new talent and voices, and that's incredibly helpful, and yet the economy of attention like it it pulls my attention in such a fierce, troublesome way that is like scary to me.
Well, and it also feels like television isn't the gold standard anymore, Like the gold standard is virality, which you know, which is part of my next question. You know, you have people like Evan ross Katz who the minute of show airs, there's like the memification of whatever the best lines on those shows were. And I wonder, because I have you here, like, honestly, to what extent.
Do you write to the.
Clickability?
It's not possible. It must write what you mean, right what Evan memes. It's really like it's crazy making you think about it too much. You like really have to try to tune it out and not think that way. I also feel like one thing that the Internet is really good about is authenticity and sniffing out things that are inauthentic. And so I think if you right to the meme, so to speak, or we were trying to
make something go viral. I think that you would smell that and people would feel that, and then it doesn't take off like That's that's one thing about the Internet that I do really appreciate and love, Like there's an unpredictability to it. Things take off and catch fire and like hit some kind of like center of someone's brain and you just don't know why, and you can't really reverse engineer it.
It does kind of make you still believe that people don't know what they want. And those are people who are on the internet.
You could look at so many quote unquote hits of the last few years, even like the Bear, And I think that's the danger in having all this data and technology, because the tech industry can be so specific and data driven and go like, well, this is the exact point at which someone turns this off, So that must mean it's not good if this person you know, you don't know. That's the thing that's really lovely about creating things is you have to just trust the person creating it in
their brain and their heart. And and I think that as we delve more into this tech world, it becomes in danger of people thinking they can know better that we can, like because tech does know better in a way. We're all like, you know, little like lab rats, and they know that when I see the like red dot on my screen, I'm gonna click it because like it activates my dopamine or whatever, and so that's really scary. But like there's a creative aspect of an unknowability that is really important.
This might be a huge leap, but like, in a way, technology is a bit like humor to say, like the very humorous person says I know better, right, Like Freud says that, like humor is the triumph of the ego, right, like it will protect me from the pain of my life, right right, And then and then love says, no, you can't use humor for everything, Like the triumph of your
life is actually like your humanity. And like I do think that HACKS really is about the way in which humor is a triumph, but it's also about how humor can't do everything.
Yes, yes, totally well. And I think what you're pointing out is exactly right, that there's something in humor and I've certainly used it in my life to protect myself from feeling things at times like humor puts you sometimes at a distance because you're observing, you're not experiencing the thing. And I think what you're pointing out is that it is this, it's this desire for control and hacks. You're
exactly right. It is both about how comedy is so important and can save us, and yet you also need to feel the feelings and give into the unpredictability of life because otherwise you're just trying to protect yourself. You're ultimately trying to protect yourself from dying, which you can't.
Yeah. I just I think that there's like there's hubris on both sides. There's hubris on the sides of technology companies who believe that they can outsmart and predict what people want. And there's also hubris on the side of the creative who like believes that their own creativity can kind of trump all.
Yeah, And we really tried to express through the Hell and Hunk character this season, like we felt it would be pat and not truthful if it was just like the brave creatives against the capitalist monster executives. It's like that's not interesting because that's not truthful either. Like, there are great people on both sides of this trying to
navigate this intersection, and you're exactly right. It's like the fact of the matter is, I can't tell you that I don't like going on TikTok and watching people dance. I do like there's something just visceral and human. I don't know what it is, but like there's a reason people love it. It taps into something.
After the break. Why Hacks writer and co creator Jen Statsky is concerned about the effects of AGI on her industry Stay with us. Paul Schrader is a guy who said that chat GPT is something that could help ID eight. I'm sure you were sort of following the ways in which the strike addressed, you know, algorithmically driven creativity or as we say, generative AI would affect the creativity of
the business. So my question is twofold, which is one like, how did the WGA address this during and after the strikes? And two can AI be funny?
My take on AI is really that quote that's like I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so that I can do art and writing, not for AI to do my art and writing so that I can do my laundry and dishes. I don't want AI to come into the realm of creation, and it will inevitably and it already has, so it doesn't matter what I want,
it's going to happen. But just speaking as a creative person who has done this for I guess like fifteen years now, I never loan for a machine to give me any I do laan for a machine to give an answer. In the worst parts of writing, you're like, God, someone just tell me the answer. But it would to me really make the process feel hollow. And the show Hacks is very much so about the joy of creating with someone else, and that process in many ways is the reward, not the end result or the acclaim or
the rewards. And so if you take the joy out of that process and the humanity out of the very process of creating the thing, I just worry that it feels very hollow.
So you are not tempted by G, as I like to call her.
I am really not tempted by G in a way that I will be the old man like screaming, get off my lawn, like you know, the industry will pass me by, and I'll be like Jen, you gotta use G, you gotta gen you got Jen, you haven't worked in fifteen years. You gotta use G. I just I don't know. I mean, like, what is Paul Shrew What is his example of how it could be useful? How can an idea?
I think it's idea generation, Like, oh, you know Hannah and deb are in Vegas. What is something that they would do in Vegas that could be really fun? So in this way, I don't want to be again like Pollyanna a butt and be like no, I would never be cause like in some ways it's like, okay.
When we write that. There's an episode this season where Deborneva go back to my face.
I call her hand. I'm sorry, Deborneva, Hannah's Hannah and I'll tell you what.
You know who does that all the time? Is Gene Smart? In scene she'll be like Hannah, and I'm like, there is an argument to be made, you know. When we wrote that episode, of course we're googling, like Las Vegas things to do. It's not like I don't use the Internet in my writing. So I guess one might say, how different is it? Then it's just.
Google lowercase G.
I use lower CASEG, not the big G. Yeah, but one could argue like, well, what's the difference about using the big G. You're already like using the internet to provide you with answers about that. What is the difference? I just it's to me, it's such a slippery slope, and I think I get really scared because I don't think humans will put on the guardrails to not let it get out of control.
So conversely, there's the issue of training algorithms on pre existing scripts. Yeah, and training algorithms on now subtitles, right, so they can actually collect subtitles from shows and movies and use those subtitles to train algorithms that then will do what I guess, build better models. I would imagine it's sort of boring for me to even ask your
opinion on that. I just wonder as a member of the WGA, as far as moving forward post strike is concerned, like, can you talk a little bit about what's been going on and the conversations that have been had.
Yeah, I mean, I think the language that we were advocating for was that like a script. This is funny, It's like a basically like a script needed to be written by a human being. That was like the language being put in the contract.
Those are your guardrails.
Those are the guardrails. Yeah, and I actually am a Writer's Guild caption and well there and here's here's the problem here. I missed the meeting last night, so can you imagine how much delicious hot off the press information for you? But I'm a delinquent union rep. But it's it seems crazy to me that companies would be able to take this tremendous amount of material owned by the studios, owned by the networks and just use it for their own profit. And there has to be some I don't
know why. I have no idea. I think what's really scary is I have no idea where the studios and the networks and companies are at with it in terms of it seems like the type of thing that they would so viciously go after of like you're using our copywritten material. But I also think they probably see the writing on the wall that they're all going to have to get into the AI space themselves. So I have no idea, to be honest, like what the higher level
conversations are. But as a creative, it seems insane to me that you can't just take a show and throw it up on your YouTube channel, like they go after that so viciously to take down copyright materials. So to me, this feeling is very similar, and I think there is like you know, I believe Shonda Rhimes and some other people there's like correct me on that if I'm wrong, But I believe some artists are coming together to like pursue legal action about it.
They are.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And so to your point about like creativity and the purpose of creating art, especially TV being the collaboration not actually the product, I think that's where something like chat GPT gets you in a little bit of trouble, even if you're someone who's like a solo screenwriter, that there has to be at a certain point a level of
you know, sort of interaction and toiling. What I think is problematic about the intersection between artificial intelligence and creativity is that it becomes a little frictionless, and that is where things start getting boring.
Yes, it's a good it's a very good point. And if someone was asking this, they were talking to me about like season four of US show, it's really easy for a show to get like complacent and not grow or not or just feel stagnant. And one thing I said was that I think that it's something we really have to our advantages, that there are three creators and we are constantly checking each other and being like have we done that before? Is that? Could that be better?
Like there is we are in a constant dialogue about it, and there is toiling there, and there is friction there, and it makes it better. And exactly to your point, it will be frictionless if you just go to the TG and say what should Deborahn have a fight about this episode and it gives you the answer and you go okay.
Like that.
That's that is exactly. It's like sad because so much of this is like if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like there is an element of that to storytelling and Hollywood that I feel we're in an era of like we fix something that wasn't really broken.
You know what it is? It's that in a technological age, optimization is the point, yes, And if optimization is the point, then everything is pushed into the tent of optimization.
That's exactly it. Technology tells us we must optimize our life in every single way, and you just can't optimize creativity. You can't go what is the most efficient, easiest, best way to make art. You just can't like that. It's it's contrary to the point of it. And so I think that's exactly the thing that worries me is that if we go, if we follow this to the logical extension, does everything go to the point of optimization? Does every show get put through this filter of but what will
get the most eyeballs on? What will get the most subscribers? Because we are trying to optimize profit for the company, you know, like who is stopping that?
I think we all are stopping it. I think humor sort of acts as this way to say, look, this can't affect me that much. And I think why humor has such a lasting influence on society and culture is that, like we get to make jokes about optimization. That is where humor plays in, and that's where you get to tell people, guys, this is weird. Like I don't need to optimize my steps. I don't need to optimize my sleep. People have been been done sleeping, you know, like we figured.
Out sleeping for the most We're like we're good on sleeping totally. Yes, Yeah, that's it. That is a that is a optimistic way to look at it that humor. Yes, it detaches you a bit, but in the detachment you can point out the absurdity of it in a way that perhaps makes people think differently about it and maybe behave differently.
And I think that's where Ava ultimately gets to play as a character on Hacks, where it's like, this is someone who is deeply feeling but also is like deeply disturbed by the way things are, where Deborah is more like, this is reality and I still love being funny, you know. Yeah, yes, And that's where I think they really but reads.
That's where they but but that's where they also make each other better, because it's a Ava sees things in this way and is disturbed by it and says like, well, what if it could be better? And Deborah says, but yes, but we still have to do the work. So let's figure out a way to do the work.
Jen, I really appreciate it.
Oh my gosh, thank you. It's such so lovely to talk to you.
That's it for this week for tech stuff. I'm caar Price. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Adriana Tapia. It was executive produced by me Oswa Washian and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcast. Biheed Fraser is our engineer and Jack Insley mixed this episode, and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on Friday for the Week in tech Oz and I will run through all those tech headlines you may have missed.
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