TechStuff Classic: The Loons at Google

recorded this, but I'll talk about that in a little bit. First, let's listen to this classic episode. We will continue our exciting delivery the Google Balloon WiFi project. Let's begin. Actually, that's that's that's that's way too low key. I'm sorry, guys. I I've had a long day. So what is this? What is this idea? Balloon wos WiFi Google? These are

just words, Lauren. He's talking about Google Loon UM and this entire project got started off because according to Google, who would probably know, about two thirds of the world's population, some five to six billion people don't have Internet access. And I mean they're not talking like their wifis down today. They have no internet access, zero way to get to

the Internet. Um. And so so Google, this this team and Google, which we will talk about later, came up with this concept that they could have a network of balloons providing WiFi access. Yeah, so you're essentially you're creating this radio wave network and the instead of building towers like you would with a three G or four G

type thing. So so you know that way, we would normally build a tower right in the middle of nowhere and then have a network of towers and that would be your cellular network or would be your four G network or whatever, and that's how you would get access to the Internet. But this is a more expensive and that's infrastructure. And yeah, and you have to you have to you where to build things. You've got to get

the permission to build where you want to build. Some of these places might be really remote and it might be difficult to build out that bar the use of some of the radio signals can get tricky sometimes. So what if you were instead to have everything that would be mounted on a tower in held by a balloon, a giant balloon that could fly at incredible altitudes and provide and bounce Internet signals are around, you know, to the balloons and then to two receivers on the ground

antenna that are privately owned. Yes, so this is all part of a division within Google called Google X, and Google X is kind of the super secret uh division. That's a hey, you know, that's a preview for an upcoming episode, but yeah, it's it's what would be used as a way of doing rapid research and development on projects. And in fact, the guy who is essentially UH, Sergey brin Is, is really in charge of Google X, but

there are other people who oversee these projects. Their roles supposedly is that they look at projects and look for reasons to kill them and says that, you know, we kill projects really quickly, and you have to be able to justify your projects exact worthfulness that's a great work. Full of worth is what we're looking for, and if it is not, then we will get rid of it.

So so hypothetically, each of these balloons will will serve a ground area some forty or twenty five miles in diameter at three G ish speeds, which is not bad, especially when you're thinking about a place that has never had an Internet before. Like you know, for anyone who's used to really fast internet, three G sounds like a major step down for me. It sounds incredible because I

remember back when I had a dial up modem. Yeah, so three G speeds is pretty fast to go from nothing to three g is is that's a that's huge, right? And uh and and you know we were talking about talking earlier about that cellular tower network kind of concept and and this is like it's it's not really like a satellite system as much as like a like a cellular tower network where and the towers are moving instead

of the users. Right, So the towers themselves will float and they'll all float on Okay, uh, and they will essentially change better than we sat down here. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, there's a that's now I've got nothing but Tim Curry going through my head at this point. Thanks so much for that vision. No problem. So these loon balloons, um, they're they're set to float in the stratosphere. I need

some details here, Lauren. What is the stratosphere? I mean, I hear like, I think this is going to the stratosphere, So I assume it's high up for something pretty high, all right. It is the second layer of the Earth's atmosphere, which is about ten to fifty kilometers a k a thirty thousand to nine thousand feet a k a six

to thirty seven miles above the surface. It's all of this is is pretty approximate and rough because you know, the it changes as the altitude is the altitude of the ground level changing, right, So like in mountainous areas, it's different than if you're at the Dead Sea or something, right, so or or Death Valley is really what I was thinking of. But anyway, so sure the dead Sea is relatively low to yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's not

high up on my list at any rate. It's a good spot to locate this, right because at that level, you're really floating above weather patterns. Right, most of the clouds and and and everything, all the storms and stuff are going to happen in the troposphere, which is you know where we are, So that's the stuff that's all around us and above the stress sphere is the miso sphere, right, and so we've got this this region where if the balloons are traveling through this, they're going to avoid all

those storms. It's also important because as I understand it, when we get to it, their power source is going to be heavily depend upon not having clouds in the way. Absolutely. Um, it's also above most birds and jet planes, so you're going to avoid interference with that stuff, right, Yeah, because most commercial jets travel at around thirty five thousand feet or so, So if it's in the stratosphere at you know, a hundred thousand feet, it's well over what most commercial

jets are traveling at. Even at a hundred thousand you're even talking about higher than most surveillance vehicles unless there's some secret ones out there that we don't know about,

which is totally possible, entirely possible. I've never been to telescope that way myself, so it's hard for me to say they're they're supposed to be around right around twenty kilometers or sixty six thousand feet or twelve miles about the surface, so not not quite at that hundred thousand mile mark, but pretty high up, yeah, really high up. So no, it is called the stratosphere, and this is important. It's not just useless weather related information because because it's

stratified or layered in, temperature getting warmer as it goes higher. Now, the troposphere where we are gets colder as it goes higher. So this is this is a little bit of a of a difference, and thanks to that temperature differentiation, the layers are going to contain different currents of relatively slow

winds that are going in different directions. So in other words, if you are able to control the altitude of a balloon, you would be able to change direction right to get it into those different air streams and move it around pretty much as you please. That will also come into play in a little bit. It's just a little teaser. Uh, you know, it's um. It's also where the ozone layer is, right,

that is correct. So this is obviously if for those of you who were around in the eighties and you remember hearing about the ozone layer uh a lot every day getting destroyed by all of our hair spray. Uh. This is the layer of the atmosphere where you would find the ozone layer. By the way, that also is why you know, you hear about stuff that produces ozone and people talk about how that's bad, and you might

get a mixed reaction there. You're thinking, wait, I remember the ozone layer was going away and that was bad, But now there's these other things that make ozone and that's bad. It's because of the location of those on layers of the strassphere. That's where it's useful for us. But ozone down here in the troposphere is bad news and not useful for us. So that's why it gets a little confusing. So yeah, so it's a pretty elegant system.

I mean, the basic concept is is if you launch these balloons, then uh, and we will get into the construction of those in just a moment, then you can you can use these air currents to let them travel basically as they will, but in a relatively controlled manner. Right, So if it starts going too far off, you can change the altitude of the balloon using whatever control mechanism you've set up, and then that way it will drift in a different direction, hopefully back toward where you wanted

to go. But if you were able to make a large enough network of these, then presumably you could just allow them to drift across the countryside, because another one would pick up the slacker for the first one, creating a more or less continuous ring of connectivity. There's also pretty amazing just imagining this ring of balloons circling globe and slowly providing WiFi to everybody. So let's talk about

what these things are actually made out of. So it's not like a balloon that you would find at a kid's birthday party, not exactly. No, um, okay. So so it's going to consist of of the balloon itself. It's called the envelope, and that's made of sheets of polythylene plastic, which is a really large family of plastics with a

whole range of flexibilities and other properties. It's used for everything from like film to juice bottles, cable jacketing, car bumpers, and plastic shopping bags, which the team says, the balloons are really similar to if some three times thicker. Yeah, the bags are three times thicker, I should say, because the balloon is three mill thick. Now, mill is actually a measurement here, we're talking about point zero seven six millimeters.

That's how thin this envelope is. Point zero seven six millimeters. Now, that is incredibly thin. This polyethylene sheet is is very very vulnerable. So you have to be very careful when you unfolded before you inflated, obviously, because otherwise just the tiniest uh probably yeah, yeah, you end up with a

big ripping it. Um this by the way is very similar to the balloon that was used by Felix Baumgartner who did his space jump, where he flew as high up as anyone had ever done in a balloon and higher in fact, and set a world record, and then jumped all of the balloon to plummet to the Earth, because that's what same people do. No, it's actually it was a really good TV. It was a phenomenal I

mean I watched it. I watched it from I missed the very beginning because I was I remember I was out at the time, but I got home, turned it on and it was still during the earliest part of the ascent, so he was maybe I don't know, ten thousand feet up. I was glued to that thing. It was incredible. So anyway, the balloons that they're using, or that they will use for this, they've got a pilot program we'll talk about in the bit, but the for the full rollout, it's very similar to the balloon that

Felix Baumgartner. You and in fact it's it's provided by the same company. It's Raven Arrow Stars the name of the company. And uh so these incredibly thin balloons get pretty big as I recall, Yeah, about fifteen wid by twelve meters tall, which is about fifty BYTT when inflated. Yeah, and they don't get fully inflated until they've reached a

certain altitude. And it's another one of those things like if you watch the Felix Baumgartner uh ascent, you saw that the shape of the balloon actually changed quite a bit as it went up. You know, it went from kind of this bulbous balloon to an elongated tear drop kind of shape. And that's more or less what these would look like once they reached the right altitude. So what is giving them the lift? That would be helium gas,

good old helium. Yes, that's not a bad choice. I mean it's you know, it's hard to get ahold of comparatively speaking in the sense that we talked about how helium is one of those resources that's increasingly difficult for us to get, and we need it for lots of different stuff, including things like cooling down super colliders so that we can you you know, universe level science. But it's still i would say, preferable to something like hydrogen,

which can go boom, right, absolutely doesn't go boom. Helium will make you talk funny if you breathe it, but other it do won't make you go boom hypothetically, not unless something else is very very wrong. Yeah, I would say maybe physics have somehow changed in your local area. Then I suggest you find shelter. But so these these balloons, these balloons are filled with helium gas and um. They contain a pump to control the fill of the balloon UM that would allow you to make a descent if

you needed to, or a further ascent. Right, So that's that's how they can control where the balloon is going by using this pump to either vent out or put in more helium um. It also includes a parachute in case of some kind of popping related emergency wherein you need to get the equipment back to the ground without yeah or possibly smooshing someone underneath it if it's in a populated area. So that makes sense. And then what I love about this is that how do you how

do you power the electronics? I mean, obviously you've got some sort of transmitter and a receiver up there. You would have to write, so the receiver is going to take the the information that's been essentially broadcast out from the user and then transmit the new information down to the user. And that's how you get your Internet access. But that means that you have to get electricity somewhere because these things just don't run on helium and the

pump doesn't run on helium itself. Point uh. And that would be I mean, you know, if you were doing this in Victorian times, would have a really fancy steam engine, that would be need an enormous balloon. Um. But but in this case, we're powering it with solar panels UM, just just a really thin layer UM kind of hanging in between the envelope of the balloon and the hardware

that's going to hang out below and UM. In full sun, it's supposed to produce about a hundred wats and so you've also got on there's some batteries, which makes sense because even when it's floating above the cloud line so that you're still going to get as much sun as possible, there's this thing called nighttime, right right, So so the the the box of hardware that floats or doesn't float, it's attached below the solar panels, is going to contain

some rechargeable batteries for that whole wacky nighttime thing, all right, and what does uh? What? What? What kind of software we talking about? What's the operating system? Linux based? Well that makes sense, I mean, so is Android really? Android is a variation of Linux, so that makes us to me.

And it's got GPS on it so it knows where it is, which is important because obviously you're gonna have ground teams monitoring these balloons to make sure that they're operational and that they are where they're supposed to be.

And they can also send some commands to the balloons if they if needed yep, which again could be important if you need to change the altitude UM and so they also have some sensors aboard right right, including UM air temperature monitoring also for altitude and speed, so that they can tell those operators what's going on. Then, temperature is a big deal because that's one of those things in the stratosphere that you have to deal with it.

It gets pretty chilly up there. So yeah, like like negative fifty degrees celsius, which in some I don't understand how temperature works at those ranges, but it's only negative fifty eight degrees fahrenheit seems incorrect, but no, no, No, it's it's when you get down to those low temperatures, they kind of they converge at one point and then they start to go apart again. I think I think what that means is technically just really bloody cold. Yeah,

it's really really cold. And but here's nice thing. Electronics work better when they're cold. Yes, there's that, um, but but also important for that air temperature is to figure out what you know. You know, if if you are for some reason not picking up what speed you're going or what direction you're going correctly, you can use that air temperature to help guide the balloon into the correct

air stream. Gotcha, all right? And then you have the radio antennas themselves, the actual antennas that end up receiving and transmitting the information to the users on the ground. Um. Yeah, that's kind of interesting. I saw a picture of the ones that were on the ground that they look a

little weird. Yeah, they're they're kind of basketball shaped. And this is this is really this is a specific design point that they that they created because when you when you've got this bulbous antenna, it should hypothetically help sending capture signals between the balloons even when the angles are very awkward, so you don't have to have it as directional as you would with a regular antenna. So in order to launch one of these balloons, you have to

have a team of at least six people. So that includes a launch commander and a coordination team at mission control. I love that they have a mission control, but yeah, it takes six people to to launch one of these. Um So, I mean it's you know, it's not something that you can fully automate. Like I said, just the fact that the balloon itself is so delicate means that

you have to take great care. I remember that watching that video of of the team for Felix baumb Gardners a set where they were very carefully unrolling the balloon and everyone was being extra sensitive about it because even the smallest hair could mean disaster. The same sort of thing for these balloons. Hey, guys, I know it might be a little looney of Jonathan to bust in here, but we need to take a quick break. Alright, so

we're back. Let's talk about some of the challenges Google faces with this program, right, um So, so, the stratosphere is not really the most friendly environment to work and necessarily um. The air pressure is about one percent that of sea level. UM. We talked about the temperature, talked about the temperature, it's it's it's a little bit chilly

up there. And UM. Also that the part of the stratosphere that the balloons are working in is near the upper end of the ozone layer UM, which means that the balloons are going to be subject to more radiation and temperature swings from the sun. Right, so that means more ultra violet radiation. There's some other issues that they could potentially run into that. You know, the atmosphere protects us from a lot of that stuff, but these balloons

would be much more vulnerable to it. Now, it doesn't mean that the likelihood of them failing is super high. In some cases, we're talking about events that we just can't plan for because we don't understand enough to be able to predict what would happen. But it does mean

it's something that could potentially impact the project, right. It basically just means that they need to think about how to make the equipment a little bit sturdier than they than they normally would for something ground basis, and which will impact the cost and google of course, is really interested in making these as cheap as possible to be able to provide the service the service to as many

people as possible. Right, So keeping it cheap and durable, those are that's a huge challenge, right because those two things don't normally go hand in hand. Cheap and uh it'll last forever not something we see very frequently. However, to upset some of those costs, they are collaborating with Noah thought it's the National Ocean A Graphic an Atmospheric Administration, thank you. Um. They're in return for giving Noah's some data about the wind patterns that they're they're picking up

from all of these balloons being up there. Uh, Noah is helping them out a little bit with funding and uh and oh interesting, So it's so it really is a great collaborative uh project. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, they're they're also getting a little bit of information about them because of course Noah has a whole lot of weather balloons and so they're they're getting some good info about how to construct these things. Now I've got I've got another

question for you, Lauren. So if I'm understanding this correctly, we've got these balloons floating around the stress fere. They are obviously mobile, so the stress fere will be pushing them around the winds. Even though they're moving slowly, you will still push these balloons around. Wouldn't that mean that there would be the possibility occasionally that I might not have a balloon that's in range of me. Absolutely, and part of that is going to be covered by that

by that bulbous antenna design. But they're also collaborating with a bunch of ground based Internet service providers in order to help fill in the coverage and and create a more continuous network. Also, they're looking to get like four to five hundred balloons for a single latitude, so hopefully they would be able to to provide a pretty good

coverage there. Um, But there's also some international laws to worry about in in these are modern times, I can imagine that some countries might not be excited about Internet based things flying through their airspace. Yeah. I think anytime you are flying something over another sovereign nation's airspace and you are not part of that sovereign nation, there's already a level of trust that you are asking for that that that's a big that's a big request. And then

on top of it. We're talking about a communication system that really what the Internet is, and and something run by Google which may or may not share information with the n ESSAY and may or may not knowingly share information with the n s A. Because there's a lot of information ever since we did our n s A at so we've had people say you need to update

that because all this other information that's come out. That's a story that's just continuing to break and it does look like so it's really sad and I don't want to go there, right. Yeah, there's plus there there's this weird car. I don't know if I told you about this, Lauren, but there's this weird car on the corner and it's been there for like ever. I'm sure it's nothing anyway. Um, there's just things that we think about at any rate. Yeah, I would see that that would be a barrier. Possibly.

Is that making sure that all the countries you want to stuff over and you know some of them and maybe that they don't want it but they don't need the service. But in order to get to the countries that do need the service, Yeah, you gotta fly through the stratosphere. It's not like you have complete control over these balloons. You can make them go generally where you want them to go, but there's gonna be some you know,

some floating there. So and and that level of the stratosphere is, by the way, still part of any given sovereign nation's territory. It's not. It's high up enough that it would be in um in space where you where it's No, it doesn't belong to anybody where no one can hear you make a lawsuit, right exactly, UM, tort reform doesn't exist in space. Uh. There there are a few naysayers. Bill Bill Gates made a really awesomely scathing comment. I'm this is this is kind of terrible, but I

love it all right. So he was basically saying that there are really bigger problems to worry about in thorop world countries other than internet service UM. According to tech Radar, he said, yeah, when you're dying of malaria, I suppose you'll look up and see that balloon, and I'm not sure how it will help you when it ki gets diarrh. Yet. No, there's no website to fix that. So, uh, I have I have this gentle message for for Mr Bill Gates.

Mr Bill Gates. I would go so far as to suggest that solving the world's problems is not a zero sum game, and therefore concentrating on one problem does not necessarily mean you cannot also contribute effort towards solving another problem, and that we do not live in a world where we have to pick and choose which problems we solve. We in fact live in the world where we have

the capability of addressing many problems simultaneously. So I think it's okay for Google to address the access to Internet problem, and it doesn't suggest that Google does not care about these other issues. Rather, it says we can do all

of this if we put our minds to it. That's all I have to say about that, although I will point out that Google has also said that by sixteen they expect the Internet to generate four point to trillion dollars in value, doubling what it was in two thousand twelve, meaning that if you are not part of the Internet, then you're kind of not making the money that you

would need to address some of these problems. So perhaps by getting this access, countries that are experiencing really serious issues well beyond internet access could maybe move towards addressing those problems as well with this new beneficial tool called

the Internet. Just throwing it out there. That's that's getting getting you know, business and education and stuff like that at the ground level is probably a really big block right now to some of these populations entrance into To be fair, Bill Gates is probably still a little ticked off that Microsoft got on the Internet game way too late, and that was his fault. So I mean, that's probably some sour grapes that I'm just saying. Possibly also I need a cookie, I'm getting We have a bit more

to say about Project Loon after this short break. Let's talk about the the staff working on this project and

a little bit into the future. Um. Alright, so the project is being headed by one Mike Cassidy uh previously the founder of a search engine direct Hit, which sold to ask Jeeves for like five million back in the year nothing UM and Rich of All, formerly of Apple's Tech Advancement crew, both of whom matriculated at M I T. H. And rich of All I believe is in fact the person I was referring to who would be looking at projects and saying this needs to be proven to be

worthwhile or it gets axed. And so far Google Loon has has not crossed that threshold where it's okay, it's above the line, it's floating over it. You might say, you you might, because it's a balloon. Goodness, my gracious. They began testing prototypes out in Central Valley, California, inn And once they had some good ones, a pilot test was conducted in June out in christ Church in Canterbury, New Zealand. So now they're they're as I recall, they

did that test. Now they're kind of fine tuning everything right right right there. They're back in Central Valley. As of as of this podcast, I think they've actually just launched a full pilot program according to their own website, So that's like breaking news as of the recording of this. Probably did. Yeah, it's on their on their website they talk about the pilot program is in pla ace. Uh, this is our pilot test began this week. We launched

thirty balloons. So there you go. But I think that might that there's no date on that website, so it might be that that announcement is actually the test that you're talking about here. So um, you know, I'm willing to guess that that's probably the case, and that it's you know, since there is no date there, they didn't

literally launched it this week. Either way, they're hoping to launch a wide scale test around the parallel South um providing service to like New Zealand, Australia, Uruguay, Chile, Argentina, South Africa, that kind of that kind of band. Yeah, and then they're talking they're about three to four hundred balloons, which is far more than thirty. So I am now convinced that that thirty one I was talking about, Samuel was the June test. Yeah, well, there's there's no there's

no date on when they're planning on launching this. Everything is still in testing right now. You know. They're they're they're working on designs that will stand the air longer for for up to about a hundred days of a time without needing to be serviced. So their pilot test began with thirty balloons that they launched from Teka Po, which is an area in New Zealand on New Zealand's

South Island. In fact, and there's an article in Wired that is a blast to read where they talk about the pilot program and what it was like to be um approached by Google. Uh so, the first civilian who got access secretly to this, his name is Charles Nimmo and the very first sight he visited was Google. Uh you know, I thought it was only fair, but then but then the the second family actually that got access was a New Zealand family called the Mackenzies. It was

Hayden and Anna Mackenzie and Hayley Mackenzie told Wired. He said that he was approached by mysterious dudes who said that they wanted to have him be part of a test, but they couldn't tell him what the test was until he had agreed to be part of a test. And then he couldn't talk about the test until they told him. He could talk about the test, but he couldn't even know what the test was until he agreed to do it. Those guys in that car outside of our buildings really similar.

We can't look at them because then they get scarier anyway, the test, Um gosh, I hope those guys in that car don't play a larger role in future of podcasts. Would be terrible, to be dreadful. The so the mysterious dudes convinced the mackenzie Is that they weren't there to steal their brains or anything, and the Mackenzie's agreed, that's all right, Well, whatever this test is, let's try it out.

So then the dudes went up and put this red basketball or the in the article I think they said it was like a soccer ball size or football for those in New Zealand sized object and put it on top of their house. Still didn't tell him what it was for, totally left that part out, left the house. The next day they came back and said, okay, you have internet now, because they had launched a baloon that

was now floating. Sixtet were the mackenzies farm They were there farmers, and so they the Anna Mackenzie turned on her computer, logged into the network that was for the Google Loon program, and discovered that she did indeed have Internet access, and she went to like the New Zealand equivalent of eBay to look at tractors because they're farmers. So but it was so funny to hear about these guys, just like, we want you to be in this test, but we can't tell you what it is or what

it'll do. Installing it and still not telling them till the next day, and that they were just like, yeah, sure, now you've got Internet loves New Zealand. I mean, you know, there's there's only so many Hobbit films that can be made there, so you've gotta you gotta make your own fun. I suppose. I suppose at a certain point, when you've had like orcs running through your relative backyard, it's things are less strange, I suppose. So I just thought that

was a cool story. Highly recommend that Wired article. You can, speaking speaking of New Zealand, New Zealand listeners, you can still sign up to be a pilot test. If I'm not I mean, if you have really spotty access to Internet, I'm not entirely sure how you're listening to the show right at this very moment, but but yeah, you can just go to www dot Google dot com slash loon slash where that's w H E R E and scroll all the way down to sign up. That's pretty cool.

You know, this is a really neat project. I think it's one of those things where if it works, it's just gonna be uh, completely awesome to see that level of access suddenly becoming much more widespread. I really hope that it works out. It's just it's to me. I like what I like about is that it's a really innovative approach to a problem. Right. Yeah, I had never thought I would never ever ever have thought of anything

like this. And you know a few people on the internets have have said that, you know, old Loon is a really appropriate name for the project because it's crazy. So I was going to the moon and we did that, So not me personally, I have I haven't been, but yeah,

I just the thing forward. I think it's uh, I think it's pretty exciting and let and again, this really kind of illustrates how the culture at Google and specifically the Google X division really rewards innovation and that they want people to think in new and interesting ways to come at problems from directions that you just wouldn't expect. Hey, guys, Jonathan from twenty here and in the days since we recorded this episode, a lot of stuffs happened with lun.

Luon has become Loon LLC, a company under the Alphabet family of companies, of which Google is also a company, and that you know, in in recent times, Luon has actually been deployed and various areas around the world. It's also provided endless hours of entertainment for yours truly, as people have misidentified loon balloons as UFOs, they are not UFOs, they are i fos. We have completely identified them. But

in St. Louis, uh and Africa. In Texas, we've seen reports of people saying, Hey, there's some sort of flying saucer or something up in the sky, and it turns out it's one of these balloons, which I find very interesting. But it's it's cool to be able to follow up on something that when we first covered it was still very much in the project stage, and it's now in a real world deployment stage, although still very early in its life cycle. I'm excited to see how this continues

and how effective it ends up being. If you guys have suggestions for future topics of tech stuff, you should reach out to me on Twitter. The handle is text stuff hs W and I'll talk to you again really soon. Text Stuff is an I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.