Apple Indefinitely Shelves it's AR Glasses Project

a R. Uh. It's too bad it's not talk like a pirate day because then I could talk about our glasses. But no, it's it's a R. And I want to talk a little bit about the history of augmented reality and why even a company like Apple has to back off from the quest of the augmented reality glasses. Also, I'm going to chat about what Apple is gonna do instead of producing those a R glasses. We'll get to that towards the end of the episode. So, first off,

what the heck is augmented reality. Well, it's a slice of a larger spectrum that we call mixed reality or x are. Mixed reality describes systems in which the user interacts with some mixture of real and computer generated elements. So let's take virtual reality or VR for example. With virtual reality, a computer creates the visual and audio cues that the user encounters, so everything you see and here

is computer generated. Depending on the extent of the experience, you might also get some other elements to boost immersion, like maybe some smells thrown in. Like maybe you are supposed to be hanged fighting over a forest and you start to smell the scent of pine, and some fans begin to blow air on you to simulate the wind. But this means that you're you've got some real world stuff impacting your experience on top of the virtual elements

that you're seeing and hearing there before. It's a mixed reality. Augmented reality is kind of on the other end of the spectrum of of mixed reality from VR. So with augmented reality, your experience of the world around you remains available to you, so you can still see and hear the world around you, but in addition to that, you get some computer generated material that adds into that experience.

So it could be audio cues that are delivered through like an earpiece or a bone conducting you know, uh, speaker, or it could be digital information that's visually overlaid on top of your view of the world, which could be through a screen or transparent lenses. The information adds to or augments your understanding of your surroundings. And this is not a new idea. Back in nine a professor at Harvard named Ivan Sutherland created a contraption that he nicknamed

the Sword of Damocles. Now, in case you do not understand that reference, and trust me, the sort of Damocles is a phrase I heard a lot before I ever thought to even look into what the story was behind it. I'm going to give you the quick version of it. And I know this is tex stuff. It's not stuff you missed in history class or uh, you know, any kind of mythology course. But give me some slack. So Damocles was a member of the court of Dionysius the

Second of Syracuse, dion as I will call him. So this was in fourth century b c e. And Syracuse was a power, a full city in Sicily, and dion the second wasn't the best ruler. He was kind of a party boy. He initially inherited his position when his

pops kicked off when Dion Jr. Was just thirty years old. Anyway, back to Damocles, So the story goes that Damocles is attending the court of Dion the second, and Damocles is just falling all over himself, kissing Dion two's posterior, and then he essentially implies that Dion the second had it made in the shade, that being king must be the best to have absolute power and all of this luxury at your disposal. So Dion goes all like, oh you think so, well, let's switch places and you can find out.

Keep in mind, actual history tells us that Dion really was all about the lavish lifestyle. So this doesn't really sound like the historical account, but this is the myth, so we're gonna go with it. So the story goes the Damocles hops up on the throne and he's like, hey, I could get used to this. Except Dion then hangs a sword point down directly above the throne and therefore directly above Damocles, and he uses a single horse's hair

to do it. So he's communicating that, yeah, you've got all this nice stuff, but being a ruler is a constant danger. You never know when it's going to strike, when that thread's gonna break, and you're going to be in mortal peril. Now, in Dion's case, he had made a lot of enemies, mostly by being a not great ruler of Syracuse. So to simulate that he had this sword suspended on a weak horse's hair above Damocles's head,

you know, any moment death could come for you. And then afterwards they switched back and Dion was saying, see, it's not all wine and roses, until he presumably went back to smelling roses and drinking wine. Now, forgive me the tangent. It's just kind of fun to dive into history and literature and mythology on occasion. Anyway, Sutherland, back in Night, he creates this display, calls it the Sword of Damocles. By the way, he didn't do this alone.

He actually worked with several of his students over at Harvard, and this was a head mounted display that actually dangled from a mechanical arm. Thus the Sword of Damocles because it was suspended. Now, it was done for a couple of reasons. One was that it was just way too heavy, so you couldn't wear it on its own. It had to be suspended so that some of the weight could

be taken off the user. But also that connection was part of the way that the whole system was able to track the movement of the display, so that when someone wore the display and they moved their head, their their view would move along with their physical movement. See Sutherland had previously created head melted displays, but they didn't have head tracking, which means you could strap one to your face and turn your head, but you would just see the same view as you did a moment before.

It be kind of the same thing that if you, you know, had a a smartphone playing a YouTube video, just a regular YouTube video and advisor, you turn your head to the left or to the right, you're still looking at the same video right your your perspective hasn't changed at all. So head tracking was a really important part of the technology that would advance both augmented reality and virtual reality, and the sort of Damocles could do it, so um a phenomenal achievement in nineteen sixty eight of

all things. Like you gotta remember this is before even personal computers were a thing, so really groundbreaking stuff. Now, the sort of Damocles was really more in the realm of virtual reality than augmented reality. It was meant to show computer generated images, not overlay them on top of

your view of the world around you. But it was one of the major pieces that had to fall into place for augmented reality to work, because obviously augmented reality own works if the overlay can adjust with respect to

your point of view whatever you're looking at. Right, if you put on a pair of augmented reality glasses and you take a look at a building and the a R is telling you, oh, here are the offices that are in that building, and then you turn your head to look at a different building, well, it has to be able to track that motion and understand all right, well, now we're looking at something else. So we have to put in different information because the first set of information

is no longer relevant. Head tracking is absolutely critical to make that happen. Now a R wouldn't even get a name until nineteen nine, nineteen sixty eight, we get this this uh uh sort of Damocles contraption, and for the next two decades, a R and VR development continue to happen, but was mostly in research labs and also some military applications. It was being used in things like cockpits of fighter jets and stuff like that, but other than that, it

was pretty much invisible to the average person. And around that's when Tom caught Ll and his coworker David Mizzle got an assignment from their employer, Boeing Computer Services Research. So. Boeing is an aerospace company, and it was looking to update the way that it would train people construction workers mainly who were building Boeing's aircraft. So one of the things they had been doing is they were using these little plywood boards to write instructions about how to lay

out cables along the body of the aircraft. And they would put these boards up within the aircraft to kind of act as guides. But you had to have specific boards for every different kind of aircraft because no two aircraft were using the exact same layout for wiring. And so the Boeing was saying, hey, can you come up with a their way of doing this, because this is kind of this is like stone age approach to uh,

to the space age stuff we're doing. So Caudel and miss L came up with a system that used a head mounted display that would let construction workers still see the aircraft like they're still getting a view of their surroundings, but they would get a digital drawing that would superimpose where the cables were supposed to go. And they could even use blank boards as kind of like a movie screen.

So you would look at the blank boards and the blank boards would act as the same sort of guide that the construction workers have been used to, but now the instructions are being provided by a computer program and displayed within this head mounted display as opposed to being physically written on the plywood boards. This meant you didn't have to have plywood boards for every single aircraft. You didn't have to have them all written out for specific ones.

You just use blank ones, and then you would use whatever the software was was for that specific type of aircraft, and then the construction workers could get to work and they could follow those instructions. So Caddel was the one who came up with the term augmented reality. The head meld display adds to or augments the person's experience of reality, and we would get a lot of focus no pun intended on the industrial world with regard to augmented reality.

And you can quickly imagine lots of potential applications. Being able to see where you need to arrange, say wires or pipes within the frame of a building could be helpful.

Like imagine going through the process of constructing a home. Well, if you have a united approach, like you have this dream of how everything needs to be laid out, using something like a head meld display with augmented reality could allow various contractors to see that layout virtually and follow that plan and thus avoid potential complications where like someone says, oh, I can't I can't do what I had planned to do because now there's a pipe in this wall right here.

Also for future people who are working on a structure, having a digital plan of everything that's built within the walls that can be displayed through augmented reality would be really helpful. Let's say that you are a construction worker and you're supposed to do a whole new layout for an office space. Maybe the previous tenant has moved out,

a new one's going to move in. Augmented reality might show you where all the existing wiring is and let you plan around that so that you can be as efficient as possible when you're creating the new office layout. So you can definitely see a lot of practical applications for augmented reality, especially in the worlds of industry. Right, maybe fewer obvious applications for the average consumer, but we would eventually get to there. Okay, we're gonna take a

quick break. When we come back, I'll talk a little bit more about the history of augmented reality and what's going on with Apple. Before the break, I was talking about how augmented reality is used a lot in industry, but another fairly early use of augmented reality was in entertainment. Sports fans would get a kind of taste of what augmented reality is all about when the NFL started to use sports vision here in the United States and for

American football. So, sports vision is a system that lets producers overlay graphics onto a live television feed, such as a yellow line to mark a down on the field, even if the cameras in motion, the system can put that line down so that it remains in the right position with respect to your view of the field. And now people who were tuning into the game could see in real time how say an offensive team advanced or failed to advance. More clearly in place could become more exciting.

You could see how much distance would need to be covered in order to secure the next down or maybe even a touchdown, which is I understand it as a thing in American football. I'm not. I'm not really well schooled in sports. I know that's a shock to many of you. Now, development in augmented reality continued in various projects, and a lot of these were independent projects. Then this probably means that we actually saw the evolution of a R occur more slowly than it would have if it

were a more unified kind of effort. But instead we saw different teams creating different are hardware and applications, sometimes in very very specific applications that just weren't portable to other uses. But by two thousand there was some serious work going on. A developer named hiro Katsu Kato developed an open source software library and he called it a R toolkit. That really helped developers because it meant they

didn't have to reinvent the wheel for every application. They had this common source of of a software library that they could be they could build upon, and they could tweak and evolve and improve over time. And meanwhile other people could take advantage of that same toolkit, and that

really sped things up considerably. In two thousand nine, Esquire magazine released a special edition of its magazine, a physical paper magazine, and it included a QR code on the cover along with Robert Downey Jr. And if you happen to have a laptop and it happened to have a webcam attached to it, and you could download some specific software that Esquire linked to, then you could use your webcamp to scan the QR code on the magazine cover and looking through the monitor like which would be kind

of mirroring the the cover of the magazine, Robert Downey Jr. Would suddenly spring to life and jump to it and introduce you to the concept of augmented reality. He did it in a pretty snarky way, which is, you know, kind of his thing, and then he went on to sheepishly promote his upcoming Sherlock Holmes film, which honestly was

pretty adorable and entertaining. Now, the mobile revolution, which was largely led by Apple's iPhone, would transform how we access online content, and it also created a new way for us to experience augmented reality using special apps and real world components, such as movie posters. We could use our phones to be the view through which we experienced augment

in reality. Right the camera on the back of the phone could feed a video view right to your screen, and then the phone would overlay digital information or replace whatever it is you're viewing with whatever they are application wants it too. So for the example, there were movie posters where you would hold your phone up and I assume there still are, I just don't hear about them very much, but you would hold your phone up and it would scan that this was an a R related

the thing. You might even have to have a very specific app downloaded in order for this to work. But then the movie poster would seemingly come to life, or you might get an animated sequence, or even like a trailer would play for the movie. All these sorts of things could happen where it's built on top of your view of the world in this case, this particular movie poster.

But you know, people were already starting to wonder what if you could build this technology into say a pair of glasses, and so instead of holding up a display and then looking at the world through that, you know, kind of like those folks who go to concerts and they turn on their their cameras on their phones and they watch the whole concert through their phone as their videoing the concert instead of being in the moment, Like

what what if? Instead of doing that, I'm just wearing some glasses and the display is built into the glasses and I can see these effects without having to have this this handheld device between me and the world around me. But that is a very tall order when you start to consider the elements that are required to fit into those glasses in order to give it a r functionality. Let's break down some of the components that you would

expect in an augmented reality headset. First of all, you have to have some sort of processor or controller to act as the brains of the device, So there's one chip right there. You need at least one camera, preferably too, so you can get some stereoscopic vision so you can, you know, have depth be part of the calculation here. But you need at least one camera so that the device can align information with whatever it is that you're

actually looking at. So that camera needs to be able to say, all right, well, I can tell they're looking at this McDonald's, so I'm going to show them the big Donald's menu. You need a display, or at least some form of projection so that you can actually see the digital information that's being provided to you. You might need a microphone and a speaker if you want to incorporate voice commands and audio feedback. You might want some

sort of GPS sensor. Now you could get away with pairing this device with something else, like a smartphone, and then your smartphone ends up taking over some of these duties because you can you can offload that to the phone instead of onto the device itself. But you might want something like an accelerometer in your A R glasses. You would also need some form of wireless communication chip, whether that's Bluetooth or WiFi or cellular or something else,

so that it can send and receive information. Probably Bluetooth would be one of the requirements, because it's hard to imagine not pairing this with a smartphone, at least for the data connection. You could get away with having it be cellular, though then you would have to, you know, pay a bill each month to keep your glasses connected. Um,

I'll see, you need a battery to power the whole thing. Now, this is just scratching the surface really, which is why you start to see it's tough to pack all of these components that you need for a useful working device and still keep it in a sleek eyeglass frame style form factor. So back in Google would show off Google Glass and this device would pair with a smartphone. So the smartphone acted kind of like a modem for the glasses.

It would you know, filter information to the glasses and take information from the glasses, kind of acted as a liaison. It could also store photos or videos that you would take with the glasses, so you could take pictures, you could take video, and then the glasses would send that to a smartphone and then free up the limited space that the glasses themselves had. Uh, so you did offload some of the requirements onto your companion device, the smartphone

you paired the Google Glass with. That ended up stripping down the Google Glass a little bit, so they didn't have to have everything I just mentioned earlier. Now, the Google glass, the glass part referred to a prism that was positioned so that it was out of the way of the wearer's view if they were looking straightforward, but by just glancing up and a little bit to the right. They could look into this prism and see some overlaid information.

This was Google's way to both keep the view clear for the wearer and also make a display that was still accessible and useful. The glass had forward facing cameras and also a bone conducting speaker built into the frame so that you could hear audio from it, and you could use vocal commands. You could use a few head movements to do things like activated. Also had a physical button if you wanted to use that to take pictures and stuff. Uh. And that was about it, and it

was neat, but it was really limited. And while geeks like me slobbered over the thought of getting a pair of Google Glass, it didn't really have the aesthetic or the utility to appeal to the general public. You just you couldn't do enough with them to make them really desirable. Also, people were freaked out about the idea of folks wearing a camera on their face where they could be taking

video or pictures and no one would know about it. Now, I would counter that to say, we're already there, because everybody already has a camera in their pocket. Smartphones are everywhere, and people always have their smartphones out and they're always looking at stuff and you can't tell if they're taking photos or if they're just scrolling on Twitter or whatever. So that already exists. It just for some reason, once you moved it to the glasses format, people got more

wary of it, which is interesting. I guess if you just have a little bit of abstraction, then that makes people comfortable enough to accept it or at least not think about it much. But then when it becomes a little more m prevalent, people get worried. I even had people asked me to take I had a pair of Google glass and had I had friends of mine asked me if I could take them off when we were doing stuff like eating lunch together because they were freaked

out by it. And meanwhile, I'm thinking, like, every single person in this restaurant has a camera on the table, if not actively in their hands, because no one can us leave them out of the way at any given moment. So yeah, Google glass did not take off, and it ended up languishing a bit. It is still used, but in limited scope, like it's typically used in workplace and industrial settings, but not it's not a consumer product. It never really made that transition Okay, we're gonna take another

quick break. When we come back, we'll finish up on the recent history of a R and talk about Apple. So Google Glass, as we mentioned, came out in two thousand and fourteen, and two years later Microsoft introduced the Hollow lens. The hollow lens is a lot beefier than Google Glass. It's also larger and bulkier. It's not not heavy from what I understand, but it takes up a

lot more realist date on your head. Like there's no mistaking that you're wearing a headset when you've got a hollow lens on, Whereas if you've got a pair of Google Glass on and someone's not actually looking at your YouTube closely, they may just think you're having you know, some classes on uh if they're really an observant. But there there are two lenses in the hollow lens. They can overlay digital information over your view of the world. You do look through the lenses and see the world

around you. So this is not like a mixed reality headset where you're looking at a solid display. You are looking through transparent lenses and you can use gestures to interact with these virtual elements that you can see in your field of view and appear to be in the

environment around you, but it's all virtual. So, for example, you could put up a panel of a video screen and you could place it wherever you liked within your physical environment, and it would stay put in that spot while you look around as if it were an actual physical television screen, but in fact it's all virtual. That's one example. And like, the effects I've heard are really really compelling. I've heard the hollow lens is super neat.

I have never had the opportunity to use one myself, but every video I've seen, every review I've seen suggested that it was a pretty cool effect that showed the potential for hollow lens. However, Microsoft wasn't able to make a version of hollow lens that could be priced for the consumer market because the technology was just far too expensive and sophisticated. So the hollow lens costs like three

thousand dollars. It was just was not something that the average person was going to be able to buy, and Microsoft knew that, so they were saying, no, that we're really gearing this towards the professional use, like industrial use, that kind of thing, not for the home user. Now, it does some really cool stuff, but the applications for the general public would be really limited, which is understandable.

I mean, if you're a developer, you are not going to dedicate the time, money, and resources to create apps for an a R headset if the general public can't afford to buy one, because you would never make your investment back. Right, you would be wasting all that time and money to build something that hardly anyone would be able to use. Unless you're doing stuff for industrial purposes,

that's different. But if if you're trying to develop for the average person, you're not going to do it for a R because very few people can even afford an ARE headset. So it makes sense that there are very limited ARE applications out there for stuff like the hollow lens, and that the consumer applications we do tend to see within augmented reality are restricted for things like smartphones and

handheld game systems. This is stuff that consumers already own that are also able to perform certain ARE functions instead of like a dedicated mixed reality or a UR headset.

Now that brings us up to Apple. Now, it's been rumored for years that Apple has been working on an a R product, and it was rumored to look like a pair of standard eyeglasses, like the black plastic classic eyeglass frames, maybe a little bit larger than your typical eyeglass frames in order to accommodate all those components I was talking about earlier. Now, back when Steve Jobs was alive and leading Apple, Apple had a reputation that was

really tied up with its hardware. You had things like the iMac and the iPod, which helped Apple navigate some choppy waters when the company was on the verge of insolvency. Then there was the absolute explosion of the iPhone and then the success of the iPad. Apple became known as this innovative hardware company that will not actually inventing new

form factors. It kept finding ways to refine these form factors that had limited or no success in the consumer market and then create appealing aesthetics and user interfaces and make them a successful consumer product. Now, to be clear, it's not that I think we would never have seen the consumer smartphone without Apple. I think we would have, but it would have taken longer for it to really succeed.

And that would also mean that the impact of smartphones on the online world would have taken longer as well. So the ripples that the iPhone created were wide, and they had dramatic consequences for a lot of the tech sector. Now, Steve Jobs passed away in two thousand eleven. He had overseen the launch of the iMac, the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad AD. After his death in two thousand eleven, the world watched Apple's new CEO, Tim Cook to see how he was going to guide Apple forward and what

products would follow. And for a few years, we really didn't get anything dramatically new. We got updates to existing lines of products. But unless you count the MacBook Air in two thousand and fourteen, and I don't because the Air is remarkably thin, but it's still a laptop. Well, it took years to go by without any sort of dramatic new product reveal. Now that's not to say that the products Apple produced were bad, that the updates they

made were bad. It's just that you know, earlier years had enough dramatic unveilings that the expectations among Apple fans had grown really high, perhaps unreasonably high. Apple did introduce an all new category for Apple anyway in two thousand fifteen with the first generation Apple Watch, so arguably this is the first totally new kind of Apple product since Steve Jobs had passed away in two thousand eleven. Unfortunately for Apple, the Apple Watch didn't captivate crowds the same

way that earlier Apple products had. Now that doesn't mean it didn't sell well. It sold really well, but it wasn't the revolutionary product that the Apple faithful had been hoping for. And we've seen a few other products emerged from Apple, things like air pods, but none of these

have really garnered the same reception as the iPhone. And Apple has kind of transitioned into more of a services oriented company, so instead of being hardware focused, their services focused and Tim Cook really lad that charge because it's a way for Apple to generate revenue through its existing platforms and it doesn't rely on hardware releases. But there were rumors that Apple was working one very big categories of tech that would introduce an all new kind of

product for the company. One was a television. Now Apple does have Apple TV, but this is a service that can be built into hardware like a set top box and then fed to a television where you can access the content that Apple allows and to use Apple services to get various types of movies and shows to your television. But for years, rumors were circulating the Apple was working on an actual television set, one that would have the Apple aesthetic built into the physical hardware, not just delivered

through software that has yet to emerge. Another rumored technology was that Apple was working on a car, and we know that Apple is in fact developing an electric vehicle. It even has a code name Project Tightened. Now. At one point, Apple's plan was to create a fully autonomous vehicle. Word is that those plans got adjusted because, as we've learned over the years, making a reliable and safe autonomous

vehicle is super hard to do. So instead, Apple is reportedly scaling way back to the more achievable goal of producing an electric vehicle. The third category of product was the augmented reality glasses, But like Project Titan, Apple has found the challenges associated with cramming all that hardware into an attractive form factor and still have it work and have enough battery life to be useful and not cost tens of thousands of dollars is a really tall order.

It actually reminds me of those posters you'll occasionally see in workplaces that say something like you want it done right, fast, cheap, you may pick two out of the three. So in other words, you can get it done right and you can get it done fast, but that means it's going to be really expensive, or you can get it done cheap and you can get done fast, but it ain't

gonna be right. That kind of thing. That poster really does paint an accurate picture that you can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you might find you get what you need to quote Rolling Stone. So now Apple instead plans to release a mixed reality headset. Now, to be clear, this was already part of the plan back when the A R glasses were still on the developmental table. The plan was to release a mixed reality headset first, probably this year, and then follow that up

with a dedicated augmented reality product. But now the are product is on indefinite hold, So now the new plan is to release this mixed reality headset and then follow that up with a less expensive mixed reality headset later. Bloomberg reports that the first mixed reality headset, the expensive one that most folks in the industry expect will be released sometime this year, is going to set you back a hefty three thousand dollars, just like the hollow lens

would have three grand for a mixed reality headset. Is a very steep price, indeed, and I think it's safe to say that it's well out of the range of

the average consumer. They're still going to be early adopters out there and folks who have significant spending money who will rush out and pick one of these up, but most of us will be waiting around to see if the less expensive version is more within our grasp, and that might mean waiting at least a year or two, because it might be or twenty five before we get

the more modest mixed reality headset from Apple. And as I mentioned earlier, a high price tag also means there's not a whole lot of incentive for developers to make stuff for the platform, since very few people will even be able to access it. So it's even possible that by the time the lower price mixed reality headset comes out, there still won't be very much you can do on the headset, because again, what developer is going to dedicate the effort to make stuff for something that hardly anyone

will be able to use. So, yeah, it's it's a it's a steep curve doesn't mean that it's impossible to get through, like it is possible. It's just gonna take a lot of dedication on Apple's part, and the company can't just abandon it. If it turns out the first generation mixed reality headset, the really expensive one, bombs like a very few people buy it, then Apple has to stick with it if we're going to get to a point where a mixed reality headset from Apple is going

to be worth purchasing. Now, as for augmented reality, I don't think we're at the I don't think that the chapter is completely closed on it for Apple. I think there's always going to be a hope that maybe the company can work through some of the engineering challenges if those are in fact possible to yate a more streamlined augmented reality product that is worthy of Apple's brand name.

And I think that that does have a lot of cool potential applications if you can get at priced to a point where someone can actually afford to buy one. Otherwise this ends up being very niche hardware for a very niche audience and it's never gonna develop beyond that, but I hope it does because I actually really like augmented reality. I think it's super cool. I think that there are lots of different, really interesting applications for it.

There's also some really entertaining ones, like it's not all, you know, educational, although those are most of the ones I think about, but you could have really entertaining applications as well. But in order to get there, we have to solve these tough engineering challenges that are not easy to walk around. And so yeah, that's kind of where we're at. I'm bummed that the augmented reality has been shelved.

I'm cure yes about the mixed reality meta kind of dominates that space right now with the Quest two and the to a much lesser extent, the Quest Pro. This this I think would need to really be an incredible product from Apple, because it's more than twice the cost of the Quest Pro, and everybody kind of dismissed the Quest Pro as being uh an unnecessary product that underperforms based on your expectations. So the Apple mixed reality headset needs to truly blow people's socks off. If it's going

to be a successful product. Uh, the brand name can only take you so far. I guess there will be some rich Apple enthusiasts who will buy pretty much anything Apple puts out, but for the rest of us, that's just not the case. Well that's it. Hope you enjoyed this quick I guess not that quick, but but fairly quick update to what's going on with Apple's a our project. I hope you're all well. If you have anything you would like to suggest for the show, you can do

so by letting me know on Twitter. The handle for the show is tech Stuff h s W or you can download the I Heart Radio app. It's free to download, and once you're in the app, you can navigate over to tech Stuff by putting that into the search field. It'll bring you to the tech Stuff podcast page. You'll see there's a little microphone icon. If you click on that, you can leave a voice message up to thirty seconds in length and let me know what you would like

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