The Human Side of Cybersecurity: Insights from Dominic Vogel

As a veteran cybersecurity expert and thought leader , dominic holds a proven track record across a multitude of industries , which include financial services , logistics , transportation , healthcare , government telecommunications and , of course , critical infrastructure , which is important these days .

Dominic is a firm believer in delivering sustainable security that supports and protects business goals . Having worked within large and globally diverse organizations , he has extensive security experience that has been forged over the past two decades as an information security professional .

Dominic is a two-time founder who has focused on providing unbiased , actionable cybersecurity strategic guidance and advice to startups and small businesses across North America . Strategic guidance and advice to startups and small businesses across North America .

Dominic is the president at Vogel Coaching and Leadership Services , a Vancouver-based leadership advisory company specializing in cybersecurity , and hosts the Cybersecurity Matters podcast , a highly regarded podcast that explores the intersection between cybersecurity and business .

He is also and I'm not saying this , but he's saying this he is also a self-proposed positive troll and I've been the recipient of a lot of those . You know really cool things . We'll talk about that later in the podcast . And he's a professional hype man and believes in the power of uplifting others through his high energy coaching practice .

Dominic , welcome to the show . How are you today ?

My favorite concert experience was when I went with my brother to when Paul McCartney came through Vancouver . I'm going to say it was probably 2013 , maybe 2014 .

One of the last times he was doing a true global tour and it was just really , really awesome to be part of the electricity running through that building and seeing someone at his age at the time performing the way that he did , for as long as he did , was just freaking amazing . One of the highlights that I'm grateful to have experienced in my life .

When I became an entrepreneur , I was like how do I learn sales , how do I learn marketing ? How do I , you know , learn building relationships ? You know , how do I learn supporting people ? You know , and I started going on LinkedIn and you know , I started going on linkedin and , you know , sending dms to people and trying to drum up business .

That got me nowhere , absolutely nowhere . I thought , hmm , there needs to be a better way . And I also at the time was like , you know what ? There's a lot of negativity here , even for a professional platform like linkedin .

You know , people who were taking a chance and posting content were , you know , know , getting negative comments or rude comments or what have you . And I thought , hmm , what if I do this differently ? Rather than trying to get business , why don't I just try to support people , why don't I just try to support people who are trying to do good in this world .

Why don't I just try to be a source of kindness and inspiration ? And maybe if I do that , they'll create the right energy for success ? And at the time I sort of coined it my kindness project , which is a working title for a book I've been probably working on for the past four years .

To me it's about my , it was just , it was sparking , trying to be different , you know , and something I've done consistently for the past seven years now , and it's something which recently I was named in the top five security influencers in Canada and I was really proud of that . I was really proud of that because , paradoxically , I don't talk about security .

I rarely talk about security in my posts or in my content , but what I believe I brought to the industry , and why I believe I'm an influencer in this space , is that I've humanized the field . I've shown that people in this field they're not just techies , they're not just security people who like talking about security .

There are security people with feelings , there are security people who are driven by kindness and empathy . There are more than just our profession .

More than anything , I think I've shown that the field is filled with great humans , our profession , you know , and I've really more than anything , I think I've shown that the field is filled with great humans , right , and trying to break down the stereotypes of what the cybersecurity profession is like and what the professionals in that field is like , that's what's

motivated me to do it . Right , it was just to be different and just be a bright light in someone's day , and the friendships I formed , melissa , like this one , I formed just amazing , amazing lifelong friendships that I know , when it's all said and done , when I'm done with my career , I'll still have these amazing friends , right ?

People that I'll be able to visit across the world , people that I'll be able to have amazing lifelong friendships with . And that's , to me , what has been the driving force .

It's by leading with kindness , it's by leading with friendship and the comments I get when I catch up with people and I say , dom , I look forward to your comments every day , because I know , at least once a day , I'll be smiling or laughing , and it's stuff like that . That's why I do what I do , melissa .

Through your compassion and your guidance I've kind of found my voice as well and I would agree with you a hundred percent that technology executives , cybersecurity people a lot of them like yourself , like me , others have compassion and we're just really cool people . The day-to-day work . I mean we're really all interesting people .

I appreciate your friendship and keep doing what you're doing . I love that . You're putting out positive energy and it's a ripple effect . I think it's going to continue to ripple across the world and we'll see nice people and not so much mean people . That would be great .

And I think that's why it's so important for us to remember , and one of the hardest things for me to crack out of my brain was that I am more than what I do Burning out in corporate .

While it was difficult at the time , it put me on this beautiful journey where I was able to become more in tune with a higher version of myself , a higher purpose , and more in tune with the energy vibrations that were more true to my soul , and it really brought me to a point where I recognized that who I am is what's important .

What I do is largely irrelevant , but it's who I am . That is what I need to lead with each and every day , and that has been , like I said , one of the greatest gifts .

I know that kind of sounds crazy , but I see other people that mention that a lot . I know that kind of sounds crazy , but I see other people that mention that a lot that they see people identifying as what they do and where they work versus who they are .

It led me to just assuming those things were true and it led me to picking a business partner that , in the long run , ended up not being the right business partner for my energy . But the funny thing is that by picking the wrong business partner , it brought me to a spot where I learned how to do sales . I learned how to build meaningful relationships .

I learned how to do sales . I learned how to build meaningful relationships . I learned how to do marketing . I learned how to do branding and I got really good at it . I was like , wow , I actually enjoy this more than I enjoy security work .

But one of the things that I now do is that every year I do what I refer to as an assumption audit Anything that I assume about myself to be true . I actively challenge it every year because I was holding myself back .

Like I said , when I left corporate , all I was trained to do or felt I could do was security work Now for the longest time , with my professional speaking as well . I would only talk about security . A few years ago a friend of mine said , dom , you should be talking about how to be an inspiring leader , how to grow an amazing , high-performing team .

He said your content is so much more than security . You can talk more about that . You don't have to just talk about security . I was like son of a gun . I just assumed that's all I was actually allowed to talk about . So now when I go out , one of my favorite talks I like to give to technical audiences is how to unleash your inner leader .

It's something that in the tech space , very few of us actually have taken the time to understand . What it means to be a leader in the tech space . And why I focus on coaching , you know , because I really believe that the technical field whether it's IT or cybersecurity we overemphasize the technical certs , the security cert service , right ?

You look at any training plan for a company , an IT team , security team . There's nothing in there about how do we become better communicators , right ? How can I be a more inspirational leader , right ? How can I do better ? How can we create more empathetic communication with the team here ? Right ? None of that right .

And when I bring forward that to CIOs and CTOs , they're like , wow , no one's ever mentioned that before . And I'm a big believer that the next big maturity hop in our field isn't going to come through technology .

It's going to come through those that start investing in their people , and not , like I said , not in terms of security awareness , not in terms of their security certifications or tech certifications , but actually making their people people , allowing them to explore themselves , allowing them to explore hidden dimensions about themselves , allowing them to be more in tune

with a higher purpose , right and higher versions of themselves . That's the next level .

a second . What are you doing to take care of yourself ? What is your approach to wellness , and is there anything that you are consistent with that you've adopted that kind of routine for you .

And so past few years especially because the pandemic was great in that it allowed me to start bringing forward a routine , because I was able to work from home all the time , and I now work from home pretty much all the time as well so when I drop off my son at school , rain or shine , I go on an hour walk , which is great .

It sets my mood , gives me energy for the day . I take the time where then I have a later breakfast , where it's something that I'm not working on a full stomach , and when it's time for me to take a midday break , it's ready for me to take a midday break , it's ready for me to have a great lunch .

I get to spend some time with my wife , and it's little things , it's nothing huge .

One of the things I try really , really hard and I do fail on this , but I try really , really hard is that when my kids are home from school , that I don't do any work , that I try to be done by the um , when I pick them up and I'm able to spend time with them driving to their activities , but go outside play , what have you right ?

That is healing time for me . That's time where I get to focus on what it is that truly matters the most to me in my life . Um , do I get to do it all the time ? No , do I get to spend time equally with my son , my daughter , my wife all the time ? No , it's the .

It's like I said , that concerted effort of just not being focused on work all the time , like I was in corporate it's . It's does wonders for the , for the , for the mind , body and soul .

What are your thoughts on that ?

We need to equip our technical leaders with the ability to do what I call mental triage , to be able to identify when people are burning out , to be able to identify when people need a safe psychological space to just talk and vent . A lot of my coaching clients jokingly refer to my service as cheap therapy where .

I just provide a safe psychological space for people on the technical team to just vent , to just say what they need to say , and it feels so much better because there's not rallying it around in their heads , they're not venting to their colleagues , which brings other negative energy , they're not bringing it home and being negative at home it's about really , the

first step is how can we better mental triage this , because it's there so we need to be able to identify it and triage it and provide that level of support . Back to my earlier point the leaders in our space are not equipped . They've not been trained to be leaders .

They've not been trained to provide that , create a safe psychological space for people to feel their feelings . That , to me , is a key thing that we need to do better on in this industry . But also , I'll say , to the left of the stress boom , what can be done to prevent the stress from actually manifesting .

And for me , what I think it still comes down to is better alignment around what needs to be done in terms of just prioritization .

I cannot tell you how many security teams I coach and I support where they are just dealing with conflicting requirements from their bosses , from maybe the board , or from executives , and it feels like they're constantly stuck in cement or quicksand which is quickly turning into cement , and they're just unable to do anything .

So , to me , what really needs to be done is we need to again , I draw this back to leadership .

A lot of security leaders are not equipped to really bring this forward at an executive level in terms of , hey , we need to do better , right , we need to have clearer priorities , and we're going to have clearer priorities because we're going to start communicating more clearly , right .

The board may think one thing , the executives think another , and the executives are confused by what the security team is saying , because the CISO or security director is not equipped to talk in a way that is meaningful or in alignment with what the business or the organization needs or is expecting .

So I'm a big believer here that , in terms of burnout , in terms of the perceived talent shortage , really a root cause in all of this is that we need to create better leaders in this space . That , to me , is the key solution .

They need to be vulnerable with their team in being able to say , hey , you know what , I've done some stuff myself and here's where I can do better , here's areas where I assumed I was doing this but it turns out I wasn't . They need to be more empathetic .

We're still struggling with empathy in the broader tech space and cybersecurity space in terms of being more empathetic to one another . Sometimes we're so quick to label and judge someone as , oh , they're a bad performer or no , that person's a jerk . We don't seek to understand why someone is acting the way that they're acting .

Again , that stems from a lack of leadership or lack of people who have been developed as true leaders . And the last thing , too , is kindness . We desperately need more kindness in our industry . We are not kind to ourselves in this industry and we're certainly not kind to each other . There is still a lack of kindness in this field .

Presentation around how do you unleash that hidden leader those are my four pillars that I build around . It's around authenticity , it's around vulnerability , it's around empathy and it's around kindness , right , those are my four main pillars . You're able to start developing those and honing those skills , you become a better leader .

And that has a trickle-down effect because your , if your people start seeing that , they will start being able to develop that . If you give them the time and the energy and the coaching whether if you do it yourself , bring in a coach like myself , or you're going to start seeing stuff like burnout . You're going to start seeing that disappearing .

You're going to see higher performance . You're going to see happier teams and when people are more dialed in , with the right energy , you're going to see , like I said , massive , massive performance hops , massive maturity hops .

If you take care of your people , not only are you going to get production and revenue growth , but you're also going to reduce cost of healthcare , of people leaving , people , going out on leave and if they can take a moment to look at the bigger picture , dominic , like you're talking about , you would see a lot of rewards versus we shouldn't be doing this .

We need to take a holistic approach , kind of like what you're saying .

We think that we can keep buying tools to get ourselves out of these holes . Technology has evolved a lot over the 20 years I've been doing this , but you know what hasn't evolved ? One iota is our ability to lead .

It's the same shitty , same terrible leaders that were here 20 years ago and we have not progressed to the same degree that our technology has progressed . If there are ability to lead and inspire and create amazing teams , if that evolved at the same rate as technology , we would be having a very different conversation , melissa , very , very different conversation .

That's what we need to do . We need to really get people to stop thinking about that . It's not about buying more technology . More technology isn't the problem . Technology alone isn't the problem , so buying more of it isn't going to be the solution .

What guidance would you give for people looking to get into cyber , because we know the good , the bad , the ugly .

What technology do I need to do ?

I would say you need to just focus on investing in yourself as a person , learning how to be a better leader , learning how to build meaningful relationships , learn how to be a more empathetic communicator , learn how to hold an audience talking about something which is maybe very complex and maybe , on a good day , very boring , and make it come alive for someone

that isn't in our field . And it's like people are just blown away . They're like , wow , we've been in schooling for four years doing this and no one's actually ever said that we should think about how we can be better people . So it's being tech , tech , tech , tech , tech and they get blown away by

it . I'm a big believer in this because , doing what I do , I build out a lot of security teams for my clients right , building them from the ground up and even for like the smallest of organizations . When they open a job opening for a junior security analyst role , they get inundated with hundreds and hundreds of applications and guess what ?

They all read the same . It's like they all use the same template , they all use the same AI engine , they're all using the word that would relish the opportunity to work for your organization , and it just no one stands out . Right , so , right , so , and why ? It's because they're and they're all this , these massive technical certifications .

We have this , this , this , this , this , and that that's why we need , I need people to understand that . It's not that you . You need the tech to get , maybe , you to the table , but guess what , once you get to the table , everyone else has the same dang tech certification , security certification .

What's going to set you apart is your ability just to pop as a person , right To be this amazingly authentic , vulnerable , empathetic and kind person . That energy will shine through , right , and you see it , when people with resumes , even just a splash of color to their resumes , they're like , wow , that stood out . That person's getting an interview , all right .

So daring to be different , daring to , like I said , look at this profession than more than just technology .

And when I think of something like incident response , you've got to have the empathy , the compassion and the control to walk a customer through one of the most craziest things that's going to happen to them a data breach and the CISO's taking heat from the board . It's finger pointing . And when we talk about the human element , it's critical .

In cyber , it's critical that you have to have people's skills .

You know , and I hear Melissa from so many people who reach out to me or on LinkedIn or people I have conversations with , and they're like , yeah , I've been looking for work for eight months , nine months , and I say , well , tell me , what are you doing ? Like , how are you doing ? How are you applying ?

Oh , I just set my computer and apply for five hours applying to jobs . Do you do anything else ? I'm like no , and I say you know what ? It breaks my heart to say this , but you're wasting your time .

When I hear people who say , yeah , I can't get work , I recognize that there's people who are in a hard spot and are unable to get work , but I still find far too many people who are not applying . They're playing harder but not smarter . As well .

As bring it back to the human form , the human centric side here and where I really believe , I see it locally . I see it with people that I coach who are on the job hunt , that you can't just apply to a job online and let it go into the , into the hr ether , because most people , like I .

Their resumes all look the same and I've done it just to show how difficult it is . Once you've sent my resume into the places and I don't hear from places that I'm more than qualified for you need to go beyond just applying online . So I always tell people that's why you need to develop your brand .

You need to develop your network , both virtually on platforms like LinkedIn and in person in your community . You need to develop your network both virtually on platforms like LinkedIn and in person right In your community . Right , find where your hiring managers are going , right , whether it's ISAC , isc , squared , other tech association , tech meetings .

Go and develop the relationships , go and develop the place there , because the talent managers are having a tough time looking through all those resumes . So make it easy on them right . Find them , develop relationships with them , develop friendships with them , wow them with what you're doing , and then you're going to now what I say short circuit the process right .

The hiring process is very broken , very , very broken .

I was good at what I did , but I did not form relationships very well . It wasn't until I became an entrepreneur , like I said , started to actively challenge myself , that I found what I refer to as these hidden dimensions about myself . 15-year-old me , 13-year-old me heck , even 20-year-old me would not believe the version of me that is currently in existence .

So I really believe that it is possible for most people . You just need to try and challenge those assumptions . Is it easy ? No , is it a switch ? No , but I know it sounds somewhat cliche , but growth comes from discomfort .

You know , and I'm so grateful that I did burn out , because if I didn't burn out , if I stayed in corporate , the version that I am now today likely may not have evolved and I'm I really like who I am today . So I'm really grateful that I did burn out because it happened for a reason . So I tell people now that you know what .

Maybe you're out of work for a reason . Maybe this is an opportunity for you to find another version of yourself , a version that you didn't even know possible . How amazing would that be to find that person .

But no , you're spot on . And I had been going through the grind doing the same thing every day , I wouldn't have time for my family I know you mentioned that with your children , but I've really taken inventory myself of what's important to me , so that really resonates . That's so great , Dominic .

Okay , I've got one last question for you where I'm just trying to spread as much kindness and inspiration and smiles as I can on a daily basis .

I set a monthly quota and my quota at the end of every month is how many meaningful friendships did I strengthen this month and how many meaningful friendships did I start this month as a result of my time on LinkedIn or as a result of just trying to spread kindness ? That's how I measure my success .

Because I know everything else will stem and flow naturally from that . I

prioritize that .