Episode #15 Coaching With Grace: Geoff Carlston

And with your division one head coach experience, you know, at the elite level coaching, there's lots of ups and downs with that. How did you get into coaching originally? Like tell us a little about your background.

Be a volunteer assistant coach at the University of Minnesota under Mike Hebert, who has since passed, but was my mentor and you know, my guy. So I was a volunteer there. I actually went overseas. I was in the Peace Corps working with youth gangs and working in the school for the deaf and got. Um, asked to start a national program over their volleyball program. So I did that with a great group of people in Belize and still some of my best friends.

So, got to travel all with the world, um, through volleyball. That was not my intention, um, at all. but again, volleyball, the universe found me and, and threw me in front of another group of awesome people, through the sport, came back and, Got asked the coach at a small division two school called Concordia, university of St. Paul, they were oh and 22 their first year in the, in the division two ranks. And I said, I can, I can't do worse than that.

So, I took that job and, uh, was making $18,000, was intermural director and was having a blast. Clearly I was single and didn't have any kids, but, um, we built that program up. Got to be top 25 in, in the country in those three years, and was fortunate enough to be hired at Ohio University here and Was here for five years. We had a great run top, you know, top 15 in the country, division one, which was, uh, a pretty cool experience. And then went over to Ohio State. I was there for 13 years.

Um, You know, Ray started our family, you know, um, really blessed to have been a part of that. Um, I was let go there in 2019, right before Covid. We hadn't, you know, we didn't make the tournament for three years in a row. And you kinda know when you're getting, when you're getting into that level that, um, especially at Ohio State, uh, after that third year, you start the, the seat definitely starts getting a little bit warmer.

Um, And so anyway, that, that happened right before, right before Covid, and that was, you know, really, really hard. Um, you know, you start figuring out, oh man, my identity is really tied into what I do. Um, and the reality was I'd been coaching from a place of fear, um, and not love and not authenticity for quite a while because I just felt that pressure, um, a lot. And it wasn't so much the pressure, it was just, you know, the. Man, uh, what have you done for me lately?

And the, it was a, it's a great league. And, I didn't really handle that as well as I would've liked to have in some ways. So in the end, I always joked that, um, I don't know if I would've broken up, but when, when we broke up, me meaning Ohio State and myself, I was like, yeah, that's probably a good thing. So, um, COVID hit and went over to, uh, Went over to Colorado and homeschooled my three boys, which, which meant a lot of skiing. An amazing year considering it was Covid.

And then, started up a business, epic journey leadership, um, which has been awesome. And we'll talk some of that I'm sure. And, um, then Ohio University reached out to me, um, And, uh, my family and I decided to come back here and been here for about 18 months. So it's been quite the journey, but I would say the universe, has just kept me, kept saying You need to be coaching volleyball. So, um, Love it.

And it's, it's really cool to be able to impact young people and it's, it, uh, brings a lot of our variety. I'm a little bit a d d I think, and I like that, like that. So you never know quite what the day is gonna bring. But it's been, it's, I've been really fortunate to be, uh, be able to do this for a profession for so long.

They're like, um, they're actually on the professional level and you're just sitting on your couch, you know? Eating some food or something.

Uh, in November of 2020. And that kind of, you mentioned this briefly, but you kind of open up more about, coaching with fear and just kind of trying to rethink what is that you really want to do and kind of, um, you're, you are your job that's like your, your persona to a certain extent, especially when you, when you've been coaching so long and you just at that, at that level.

So I thought it'd be interesting for you to kind of dive into that a little bit deeper about kind of what you learned from that, and any takeaways and how you've leveraged that to. You know, create this epic journey company and soak and continue to coach, volleyball.

Um, and it's obviously focused on, it was written to the coaching profession as a whole, but as I've subsequently moved on and, worked with Epic Journey leadership and a lot of men in particular, but women as well, you know, I think the higher up you go in whatever you're doing, the the lonelier it can be. Um mm-hmm. There's a, there's a solitude that comes with, um, you know, being a leader in a lot of ways.

And whether it's a CEO or, um, you know, the principal of a school, um, superintendent, cfo, whatever it might be, head volleyball coach. Um, and so I wrote a lot about that, the experience of, of walking out the door after being told for the first of my life that you're not. You're no longer wanted here. Um, the, the, you're not good enough. Uh, voices, definitely. Um, were raging. And, but there was a moment, and I wrote about it in the article of just there was a moment of peace in some ways.

It wasn't like, oh, things happen for a reason and Don it's, it wasn't that, it was just, um, it was a weight that had been lifted, uh, like a brick house that had been lifted off my shoulder. As I walked out the door and I just, I, I called it grace. Not necessarily the religious form of grace, although that certainly comes into play with a lot of us.

But it was more just the letting go of, that ego and so many things of having to, and you know, I think a lot of us, I realize that, I think especially men, We do, do, do we do, we were always need in motion and we rarely, that gives us no time to be. Um, and to take a hundred percent, take that moment. And the universe had given me the opportunity to be, and it sucked. It was like, um, and then covid hit.

And so, but I'm, as many things are in life, you know, retrospectively, I, I can look back and it was one of the best things that, that could have happened to me, um, in a lot of ways because, It allowed me to start Epic Journey leadership. It allowed me to, I, I'm not afraid, I don't tell people, oh, I was let go. No, I was fired and it was pretty abruptly. And it was pretty, even though I'd seen 30 other coaches, head coaches let go, it was pretty unex.

It wasn't shocking, but it was surprising. Um, And in the end, I, it gave me some opportunity to really reflect back on myself and how I would handle that stress and how I handled, um, you know, my identity and how much of it was wrapped into being a coach. And, you know, coaching is a sport where you give yourself like, you are away from your family. Um, I have three little boys, and, and you're recruiting and you're gone most weekends. And, and then all of a sudden it's over.

Um, You know, be able to sit back and go, okay, what? Be curious and compassionate and kind are the three words I like to use, especially the word curious. I use that a lot, like with my players, with myself, with my clients. Just be curious and not punitive. Because the immediate response is, I suck. You, suck. Well, I'm not good enough. And anger, frankly, um, anger towards the others, you know, whoever that might be.

But the reality was, for me, that article was cathartic in the sense that I, I needed to take ownership from my part. Um, cuz the world wasn't gonna sit here and have a pity party for me. And, and I had to, I had to grow from this experience. And so, um, you know, I'm 53 years old. It was the first time I was ever let go and. It was soul crushing, but also soul, um, rejuvenating in a lot of ways, but it's taken time and I certainly fall back into it.

But I've, I'm able to use that experience to help others now. And I will tell you the most incredible sentence to ever come out of, most optimistic came from one of my mentors who said, it was actually, Jerry Lynch, who is an incredible sports psychologist and has written lots of books. He works with Steve Kerr.

I got fortunate, got to be able to connect with him and he said, you know what, Jeff, I think what a gift, you know, to be able to, now you can speak to an entire population of people that you couldn't have spoke to, spoken to two weeks before. The people who have been fired, but also the people who. Have had their identity just blown away in a second because one other person didn't think you were good enough.

And I was like, that is the most optimistic thing I've ever heard in my life, but 100% true. Um, and I share my story and I don't hold back. And I've found over the last year that that's been really, really powerful and transformative for other people.

So, when you're in, you know, probably in high school, starting in high school gets probably kind of a little bit more intense and then college more intense. It's just like each level that you go, it gets more intense. And the larger organization that you play for, So I can see that, as such a huge benefit to that community and why people did reach out, uh, you know, and support or also maybe just to talk to you and say, Hey, I've, I've been there too.

Yeah. You know, and that's where it's nice to feel that you're not alone, in that. And so, uh, I think it's more important for people to communicate those things out loud. After you did that, it was probably, I'm assuming, was, let's say scary as well as was it. Was there a relief off your shoulders? Like, okay, it's out there now, hopefully this will, this is a good thing. Or was it more like, oh, why did I do that kind of

And the cool thing that's come of this is that, you know, now with Epic Journey leadership, I can really relate to CEOs and, and, and I can, and I think they can relate to me and other leaders of, you know, I've worked with professional athletes, I've worked with, leaders of all walks of life. Because it's, it's really, it's a different, it's a different stage, but it's the same thing.

It's the same issues of, you know, solitude and who do I talk to about this pressure I'm feeling because if you're a ceo, for example, I. First of all, you don't really wanna bring this stuff home every night, like it's family time and how do you set, and we talk about balance and balance and balance all the time. And it's almost, it's such a catchy, you know, almost white noise. But we do know, especially, you know, that, that you, you don't wanna bring.

All of this home to our, to our, our wives, our husbands, our children. And it's something you necessarily don't feel comfortable talking to people you manage. Um, that, Hey, I'm struggling. I'm this, I, I feel this pressure. Like that's not something most of us are going to do. And then you think about, okay, well who else can I talk to? And you think about other CEOs and especially in the corporate world, they might use that against you. And so where, where do you turn?

And the reality is, is most of us, in those positions turn to nobody. We absorb it and we roll up our sleeves and we grind and we work. Um, we do right? And that's not sustainable. And it's been really cool, um, through haven't, like my mentor said, having gone through that, I know what it feels like to have 5,000 people in a space. And you lose and feeling that pressure, you know, I also know what it feels like to win in that experience.

And so that's one of the cool things about coaching is that the highs are really high, but the lows, man, they will bring you to your knees. Um, But my ability, uh, to use that story and connect with, you know, CEOs and organizations and helping them develop culture, but also helping the leaders. Cause you always wanna start up top because that's where the pain is. That's where the, that's where the person who's probably got the most on their plate and is most alone.

And I know what that feels like. So I've, I've really enjoyed, this, this part of my life, working and coaching. Leaders in other areas outside of sport. I really enjoy it and, and I bring, you know, we have a group of guys that I've been working with for two years, male leaders around the country, and I'm just starting to have another group here in the spring, and it has been transformative.

The impact and the, and the need, the desire for, and this is a men's group to be able to, you know, Share stories and be around other people who kind of get it. Um, so. It's the cool thing that I did not expect from writing that article and getting fired is, is, is how the ripple effects go way beyond college coaching and, and tie into really everyone's humanness, that's ever felt, you know? This sort of pressure and, and it can be a father or a mother.

That's the pressure of trying to keep your family together and raising children. I mean, that's freaking hard. Um, but we just don't talk about it, uh, nearly enough. And so it's been really cool to be someone who, um, that's certainly part of my purpose is to create space and opportunities and experiences for us to do that as people.

But when you're, when you're in that head space, you don't really know who to talk to and people around you don't typically know what you've gone are going through unless there may be someone who has had a company or, you know, so similarly like your peers. So that's kind of like the point of this podcast is kind of help, help, help out your peers. Right.

With, with that, and the other thing that kind of, that I wanna unpack from everything that you just mentioned was, How I totally agree with how men especially, or at least say, most men kind of bottle things up and don't really show their emotions on their sleeve.

Um, and so for you to have this program to kind of get men together and kind of talk about things and share those experiences, and so, okay, well I'm gonna share this experience and then after I hear something from this other person, Then that other person down the line maybe really feels comfortable with sharing something that they've never shared to anyone else before. Mm-hmm.

Um, so I think that's really, I important to show that you can be vulnerable as a, as a man, that we all have emotions and boing them up is the worst thing to do. And that's what a lot of us, uh, do instead of letting them out. tell me about kind of with this upcoming class that you have, or, or is it retreat?

And, and it's sacred space. I mean, I think the word, I think the word vulnerability is almost like fingernails down a down a chalkboard for men because it's such a bit of a catchphrase. And so what I, what I talk about is this, like we get together and we'll talk about, Hey, what are some things that fill you up? What are some things we'll talk about? You know, some triggers, things, you know, what are, what do we do when we're, when we're feeling pressure?

You know, ultimately once, once that door is open, um, And you can call it vulnerability if you want. I, it's just, frankly, guys sharing stories. I mean, we're just telling, being authentically, talking about like the challenges of being a parent and being a ceo. Like how often do we talk about that? Right. And it's so, it becomes very, very informally authentic.

And the power that comes from this, I find is super simple, is just, Well, I thought I was the only one going through this because the irony of all of this, um, is that I've talked to hundreds of men now about these things and just part of 'em, some have been this course and some 'em haven't, but there is a universal truth that, that this is important getting together. Cuz we, we for the most part feel like we are alone. We feel like no one's gonna understand and.

We don't have a lot of, um, role models in our past to, to say that that's kind of bs.

And once you get a group of guys together and we create a sacred space, and I started off, I'll talk about, you know, I'll start off by sharing my story and then, you know, someone else will say, okay, well yeah, talk about their, their relationship with their son or, or something they went through that was hard and all of a sudden now you got it going and it's just, And it's fun, you know, cuz it's not, it's not so much, it's not therapy, but it's therapeutic. Right?

I have my, I have my background as, I have my ma msw, my master's in social work. So I, but that's not what this is. It really is me bringing people and creating a space for leaders of all walks of life. And we will talk about, you know, how do we level up and there's always an action plan. Like, okay, what are we doing?

I'll partner up two, two guys from the group and you guys are gonna talk about, um, You know, how you were raised and, and how that, what are some good things that, that you, you've taken from sort of your, your experience being raised in your family and what are some things that maybe aren't serving you well, that you're, that you want to break, you know, you wanna break that pattern.

For example, myself, I was raised in a, uh, with a, in a place that was very, um, Like, I just didn't enjoy being home a lot. And it was, you know, very, um, never quite sure what was gonna happen with my dad. It was never abusive. It was very intense. Um, didn't deal with his issues that he had growing up. And as a part of that, I just, every time I got, I got outta the house. I just wanted to leave. And

You know, flourish, whether it's physical or it's mentally emotional, or it's just within business. Um, you know, I think it's, I've seen some incredible results with simply getting people to lean in and talk about kind of what's really going on and some, some maybe not, so not so easy stuff to talk about that once the door's opened, um, really you start thinking, seeing some positive changes.

Or what would you tell, tell yourself as a friend and maybe record that and play it back and, you know, and so it's, it becomes a little bit more powerful cuz when you, you're in your, if you're in your head all the time, then it's really hard to, you know, fully process things. And you kind of get that rumination, you're stuck on that hamster wheel, right. And. And I think what's nice about coaching and you know, I see a counselor and seeing a coach and having a counselor together.

There are two different things, but it can be very beneficial. Uh, I've had the privilege of interviewing an ADHD coach, a trauma-based coach, and. It really, I always thought about coaching more as for when you're in sports. Mm-hmm. You have a coach. But then it, I was thinking about it and as I interviewed these people that Wow, actually it makes a lot of sense to have that, that coach or that that leader, that mentor to kind of help guide you along the way.

Just, you know, get out of your head and like, Yeah, that makes perfect sense. This thing that you, that you're suggesting as a mentor and then you have someone to follow up with every so often about something. Right. I think you just need that little push sometimes and just that, that other little, that other voice to kind of help you, you know, get on track. And I can tell from obviously you're, you're long, long career as a coach that you learn how to deal with so many different situations.

And as, as a coach, especially of college students, Excuse me. That takes a whole nother element. So you're kind of, uh, maybe in some ways a, you know, a father figure too to some of these kids, and you kind of really, they're growing up, it's a, you know, it's an emotional time of their life. They're maturing as mm-hmm. As, as people becoming, becoming adults.

So can you kind of dive into when you've coached students over the time, um, You know, some of the things that, that you as a coach have done and kind of learned along the process of, this is what's really helpful this in mentoring these young youth of a of America. Yeah, yeah. No,

So for example, a lot of our players come in and they've, they've never had a B, you know, so their identity is I'm an A student and then they get a B in, you know, biology, which is no joke, right? They get a B and all of a sudden I've had pla they, it really, they struggle with it because they're no longer an A student because they got a b. That's, that's very real.

And you also have, you know, identity of, you know, all the players that come in and play for play at a division one level, like we are, we're, we're likely the best players on their team. You know, they've never sat, they've always been the stud, if you will. And then they come and there's 18 of those in a, in now in our gym. And they may not start right away, or they may have a, you know, a sprained ankle or they have to grind through the identity of. Of not being a starter, right?

And so this, this can tie this into relationships of, you know, I'm so-and-so's boyfriend or so-and-so's girlfriend, and then all of a sudden you're not. And you know, so I think one of the things that I've noticed, and social media by the way, just throws gasoline on this fire of, I'm not good enough. I need to be this, I have to do this.

Um, and it really is tied into identity of, you know, Getting, getting our identity and tying your identity into the external instead of the internal, the extrinsic. Instead of the intrinsic, right? And so we try and we're trying to undo 18, 19 years of this, by the way, by the time they get to me. So a lot of times the first time they ever quote unquote, fail is in our gym. Meaning you're not starting, or you know, you're sprain an ankle for the first time.

And so we have a lot of opportunity to help. To be the person who's in front of them as the head coach, especially when they first fail. And uh, I love that, frankly. And so, you know, we do a lot of journaling. We do mindfulness work, we do meditation at the beginning and ending of a lot of our practices. Um, we do things outside of every Wednesday we do, we spend basically an hour on leadership and, um, Going through a book and, and, and walking through that.

And it's almost exclusively tying in with the mental, psychological and the spiritual aspects of being a student athlete. And then we always tie it into like, what are you gonna do outside of this? Like, you can't just not show up if you're, when you're a parent, like you, you have, we have to be willing to be uncomfortable and. That's hard. That is, that is a hard sell, right? And so I think. I enjoy coaching. I, I decide to come back to coaching cuz I love that part of it.

Um, and I love being in a place like this where I feel like we're not so far removed from our student athletes that we can do that. And we do a lot of coffee and, and do stuff outside of, outside of the gym, outside of my office and talk about life and, um, and so, yeah, I think a lot of it's just tied into. This identity that is reinforced through social media. That one, I'm not, okay. I'm not, I'm not good enough at X, Y, Z. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not tall enough. I'm not fast enough.

I don't do this. I don't wear the right clothes. I don't da, da, da da da da. And yeah, you know, that is, that's what these, the young people are getting. That's all they know, right? Is, is being blasted by how many likes they have and, and Insta this and Insta that. And so without sounding like a huge old person, you know, I think that we take that into. Take that into place. But then we work on, okay, let's slow things down.

Let's talk about anchoring identity into, you know, our spirituality or who, you know, being a good friend or being a great teammate, or being resilient, being an artist. You know, these things that we actually have control over so, so much of their lives, and our lives are. Necessarily not in our control. And Covid showed this, you know, to the world. Like, man, if we didn't, if we didn't know that life was, IM permanent before, we certainly do now. Um, and so that's the fun part.

That's where the good stuff is. But, uh, that getting uncomfortable. For our student athletes is where we try to, we try to base all of our learning and then obviously the game of volleyball is a game of errors in a lot of ways. So navigating our relationship with failure. So, and this, frankly, it's the same thing, it's the same conversation, just different, a little different language and different stage when you're talking to a CEO or an organization. Um, so it's integrative. I love it.

I think, I think probably a lot of your students, kind of what I've read from, from your website and some other information, that they've really appreciated that. And then they've gone on to do great big things and they still reach out to you and have this connection because you kind of mentor them through their, uh, Younger, younger self and then kind of grown into this kind of, you know, adult, right? Uh, and so that's, that's gotta be, that's also gotta be very, uh, fulfilling for you.

Um, And I think any good coach, you know, feels that he feels that pain. Um, it's one of the hard parts of our job is, is um, is sometimes when you just can't quite make that connection with someone. But I do think, you know, the stuff we're talking about and, and the players coming back and talking to you and leaning in and, and sharing their stories and spending time with their children and all that. I've been doing it long enough to know that that. To be able to do that, thankfully.

But yeah, it's really, it's really rewarding. It's, and it's the best part of the job.

Um, and what's sacred to me? Right? And I think most of us, and certainly most men, the me time always is last, you know, the. We just don't look at taking care of ourselves as sacred. Um, and that's something that we're trying to change. Um, it doesn't have to be this or this. It's gotta be a this and this. Um, so for me, I. You know, obviously my, my marriage is sacred. My, my, my, my three boys are sacred. And then I need to, I wanna spend time one-on-one with all three of 'em.

Cuz for l it's crazy. I think they all three came from the same place, cuz they're completely different animals, right? So I wanna spend that sacred to me to spend. Time with them, but also one-on-one time. Opportunity leadership is something that I'm really passionate about in helping, helping people and CEOs and, and other leaders navigate, um, these, these rough waters and, and coming out the other end better for it.

And certainly college coaching, um, you know, pouring myself into our student athletes. And so, and then you have to carve out time for yourself. And so for me, um, I do that. I have a, I am a, I have, every week I lay out color coded and I'm still an old school pencil and paper guy. And I do it every Sunday.

And I carve out time where I'm gonna, I'm gonna coach other people through Epic journey, and I, and I carve out time where I'm gonna meditate and I carve out time where I'm gonna go for a walk and do some exercise. That's, that's just me. I really enjoy solitude, um, for me to pour myself into. My players, my clients, my family, my kids. I know I have to recharge my batteries.

Um, and my wife knows that I'm very, very lucky to have a wife that understands that and is extremely patient and deals with my crap. Um, but I, you know, you have, for me, I just, I put it under sacred time and, and you only have so much water in the bucket. And if you're gonna spend three-fourths of that on stuff that doesn't matter and waste energy, uh, you only have a corner of that bucket left for the things that matter, um, which you know, your family.

And yourself and other things that are important. So I'm doing better at carving the fat, if you will, and, and really for me it's about energy and what's sacred and then pouring myself into those things. And one of those buckets has to be me having solitude. Um, and everyone's gonna be a little bit different. Some people's gonna be playing music, some people's gonna go for a hike. I do all those sort of things, but I need to, if I don't put it down in my.

If I don't carve it out, it's not gonna happen. So I, I do a pretty good job of, of setting aside time that I, I don't have anything and it's just, frankly, my own time to do what I need to do.

Um, really, it's a, essentially, it's a, it's a, it's a guidebook for how to navigate pain and stress and all the emotions. And it's beautiful. It is my favorite book. I have it in my backpack. It's with me all the time. So yeah. When things fall apart, uh, written by Pema Chodron, anything by Pema Chodron is great. But that book is, is the one that I've, that I like the most.

My, you know, my email is, uh, Carpe Carlston, so c a r. P E c a r l s t O N gmail.com. That's a shout out to Carpe dm, right? So,

And even if we think we got our stuff together, the reality is we, none of us do. Um, and some of us are doing a better job with it and navigating it, but man, we can all use, we can all use someone to kind of, kind of help us navigate this cuz we all have blind spots. We all get stuck. Um, we all have things that caves that we really haven't explored. And so, um, that's the good stuff.

So I love doing that with my college students and I really have enjoyed doing it with some older people, um, that are, that are maybe in that, that that leadership position and feeling a little bit, feeling a alone. And trying to navigate what their next mountain is. So I appreciate your time, by the way, for letting me have me come out here and talk about this