CLASSIC: What is Agent Orange?

Oh, man.

So it turns out, back in the day in the Vietnam Wars, the US call it, a lot of people got sick, didn't understand why, and allegations about poisoning continue today. This is a heck of a classic episode, dude.

Have either of you guys seen the movie Jacob's Ladder starring what is it?

No? Geez? Who's in that? Tim Robbins.

It's a very very cool, kind of psychedelic, kind of messed up actually, a sci fi movie about Vietnam and some potential Agent Orange esque experiments that take place and lead to some pretty messed up things happening in the lives of these individuals. But oftentimes, you know, reality is stranger than fiction and and scarier because yeah, this was a thing, man.

It was just a set of herbicides. Guys, what's the big deal?

Yeah? What's a neo nikotinoid ever done wrong? Aside from killing all the bees? We were right about that part too. What's going on on with depleted uranium? Right, what's the deal with white phosphorus? What's the deal with Agent Worrinch?

Let's find out.

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Noah.

They call me Ben. We are joined as always with our super producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, you are you, and you are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. We can open with a question today, I guess for the table. Have any of us had relatives involved in the Vietnam War?

I do not believe I did. Honestly, If I do, I am unaware of it.

Paul, do you have any relatives in that conflict? Also?

No?

Three nos. That's interesting, Ben, Yeah, Well, being from a military background, it's somebody, yeah, yeah, multiple members of my family. The reason we open this episode today with this question is because our episode touches on the Vietnam War. It's not really just about the war, it's about something different. The Vietnam War is the last conflict in which Uncle

Yeah, it was that one time we interfered with another country's inner workings.

At one time.

Right.

And the thing about modern war is that it drives technological innovation. There's no two ways about it, and the Vietnam War was no exception to this rule. During this conflict, the US pioneered numerous pieces of technology that we now see today in the civilian sphere. Some of these innovations

Yeah. And weather manipulation is one of those things.

Right, which we talked about, which was surprisingly a real thing. I think that baffled all of us. There was another innovation in this war which might surprise some people. It was the widespread use of herbicide as a weapon, which which is nuts. Right. Planes swept across the Mekong Delta dropping weed killer instead of bombs.

Oh there were bombs too, There were also bombs, but there was a lot of weed killer.

And this weed killer is known today by the name agent Orange. In decades and decades after it was deployed there in Southeast Asia, we as a species are still trying to figure out exactly how it affected us. But let's start with the facts here. They are. What is agent orange?

Oh, man, I'm gonna butcher this pronunciation, but I'm gonna try it is something called a defolian, A defoliant nailed. Yeah, I guess it wasn't as hard as I made it out to be.

Thanks for the ataboy, though, guys, I appreciate it.

So yeah, a plant killer, like you said, so, this is a combination of various herbicides, but it was the most famous used in the Vietnam War, when the US dispersed it across entire areas of the country in order to remove plant cover.

You know those tree lines.

They're always talking about Charlie's hiding in the tree line.

And all that.

You know. I remember hearing that movies. That's in movies. They wanted to get rid of that.

I guess, so they had more visibility of the potential awaiting enemies.

Yea. And there are big problems with naval ships where there would be tree lines right along the water and combatants would hide there with various munitions, and this was one of the reasons, one of the main reasons they wanted to use Asian orange or any of the herbicides.

Yeah. Yeah, good point met, because that's scene in Apocalypse Now where the boat is going up the river. Yeah, that kind of stuff really did happen. And you make an excellent point about the other herbicides because we always hear about agent orange. Agent orange was called this or sometimes called orange too.

That whole family.

Yeah, yeah, it had a whole family, a whole spectrum of colors. It was called agent orange due to the orange markings on the barrels it was shipped in. But there were other colors too. There was Agent blue, denoted by the blue markings. Still a herbicide, a little bit different, But we can get into the chemistry of agent orangetty pretty easily. We can do a high level. Look, we're not chemist.

Do you guys know why they called the Vietcong Charlie. I just looked this up to make sure I wasn't accidentally being racist. Please tell us VC Victor Charlie Viet comm Charlie.

There you go, boom today innocuous AF.

So that's really interesting. Had no idea. Oh no, that's great. So let's get into what exactly this stuff is. Agent orange is equal parts to chemicals, and these are both herbicides. The first one you can just call it T four dash D and that's T comma four dash D that's dichlora finoxy acidic acid. And the second one is T comma four comma fivesh T or T four five T that's trichloro finoxy acidic acid. Now, so it's just two of these orbicides equal parts mixed together you get agent orange.

And were these were these common beforehand?

Yeah? These were pretty common in the United States. They were used the separate chemicals, not agent orange itself, the combination of them. But yeah, the separate chemicals were common in the United States.

And during the manufacture of what which one of these ingredients, it's the T four five T okay, the trichloral yes, yeah, so during the manufacture of that, another chemical is produced.

Right, Yes, small amounts of something called TCDD. You're ready for this, here's the last one.

You got it?

Two three seven eight tetrachloro divenzo dioxin. And it's also referred to as.

Dioxin dioxin, and it's formed as a byproduct. It's considered a contamination in its own way. It is an unwanted growth, very similar to a weed.

There you go, oh, a weed within the herbicide.

But what is it really? I'm so glad you asked. It's crazy. So it's what. It's a kind of thing called a persistent organic pollutant. There are multiple forms of dioxin. When we say persistent organic pollutant, the key word there is persistent. Once these things get into something, they tend to stay. According to the EPA, dioxins are not made commercially, nor are they sold in the US, at least they're

All right?

Chlorinated die benzo p dioxians. There you go, chlorinated die benzofurans or CDFs and some polychlorinated bifenels PCBs, which you may have heard a long time ago on a previous episode.

Oh yeah, you've almost certainly heard of PCBs before. That's one of those common chemical compounds. You actually hear PCBs, Like, this is without PCBs. We stopped using.

Those, do health concerns, right exactly? A little bit of foreshadow?

Is that the stuff that's an im thinking of BPA?

Yeah, different, but only the crinkly ones.

Yeah, yeah, I remember peak behind the curtain, folks. I remember a few years ago, Matt, you first told me about BPAs. I was microwaving something in a plastic like a plastic container, a TopWare kind of thing.

Yeah, I mean it was one that you generally put in a microwave.

And then when I was convinced that I was going to it, I was convinced it was all over for me. It's like, here comes the cancer.

I mean, we're all full of it already. There's nothing you can do. We exist in twenty eighteen.

Yeah, we're riddled with it. In the nineteen seventies, we didn't have the same awareness of what the consequences of exposure to these sorts of chemicals could be and dioxin in particular, which on its own looks like these little white crystalline needles, is chemically speaking, a Samuel L. Jackson level bad. I mean, we're a family show. What should I say, guys?

M Murpher Murpher nailed it.

Yes, it's a bad Murpher it because the accent can cause cancer, reproductive problems, developmental disorders. It can also wreak just train wrecked levels of damage on hormones and the immune system. Agent Orange was meant to be what's called a rainbow defoliant, meaning that it didn't specifically target get one type of plant. It targeted everything. Yes, and this means that as a weapon of war, Agent Orange was from the get go, from deployment, meant to do more

It was a tactic to starve everybody out.

And we started tracing the evolution of agent orange from its orangein point Oh God, I'm so sorry to its deployment. The US exhibited interest in this concept weaponized herbicides way way before the Vietnam War. In nineteen forty three, the Army contacted the University of Chicago and asked them for some data on the potential of herbicides too. It is important. This was their original question to the University of Chicago. Specifically, they asked for data to prove whether or not herbicides

That comes later, Yeah, I mean it is. It's interesting how there was such a problem with forest cover during the Vietnam conflict that it also made sense to use this product that destroyed crops. And wonder if that was just I was getting knuck. I was gonna say, happy accident is not a happy accident. But they just happened to coincide with what they needed. But that's really messed up, So that's nineteen forty three.

Yeah, and they continued. They moved pretty quickly on the concept. They first tested the idea of weaponized herbicides in nineteen forty four in Orlando, Florida.

I have to say, this idea of herbicidal warfare is fascinating to me and not something I would typically think of as weaponized herbicides.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's strange, isn't it. And they tested at first, they were just seeing what sort of poisonous stuff could do the job, So they tested ammonium thiosinate, zinc chloride, sodium nitrate, sodium rsenate, and sodium fluoride, which I we know, fellow conspiracy realists will already make some people's years per cup. But the tipping point doesn't her until nineteen forty five during something called Project Sphinx.

So Project Sphinx was conducted at Fort Knox.

That Fort Knox and the United States government investigated the use of chemical agents in making vegetation more flammable.

It seems like it would be flammable enough as it is, but.

Before a flame attack and agent orange and napalm. Napalm's a scary one. Are the descendants of this particular research. So the US continued to develop and test Agent orange from forty six to fifty one domestically.

Yeah, and the first use of this crazy cocka made. The idea of herbicidal warfare comes from Britain in the nineteen fifties. They cleared areas of the jungle in Malaysia of vegetation if they were close to roadways. They wanted to prevent ambushes by well, they called them communist guerrillas. Other people called them freedom fighters. And many of the people there just saw themselves as locals.

Yeah, or your family and friends. Also, the Britain didn't call that a war. No, it's kind of familiar for you know, for a long time it was the Vietnam conflict. Or I guess that's kind of changed the Vietnam conflict. It's been the Vietnam War, but he was never declared a war by Congress.

True True Facts. In an internal memo from nineteen fifty two, the agricultural giant Monsanto informed the US Army Chemical Corps that the herbicide that you had mentioned earlier MATT two four five T the try one, the try one, the trichloral one, was contaminated with dioxin during the production process.

So nineteen fifty two they knew, they knew.

And accidental overheating of the reaction mixture caused this product, this herbicide to condense into this dioxin. Dioxen, just for a frame of difference, is one hundred and fifty thousand times more toxic than arsenic, the poison arsenic, the very famous poison arsenic. Jeez, yep, sorry.

I'm just making big googly eyes right now. You can't hear because this is an audio show. But I just that is an insane number to be more toxic than the thing that we already know is being quite bloody toxic.

Yeah, more toxic than possibly the most famous poison in history. The US began using herb besides in what nineteen sixty one and something that was originally named Operation Hades but got changed to a less sinister sounding.

Name, Operation ranch Hand.

Ah, that sounds like some good old corn fat operation.

There, boys, I'm just a ranch hand, you know. I get the horses all, you know, get them back around. That's pretty much what I do take care of. Do you hit them up? Hitch up horses to the post, feeding bags you know.

Now, well that seems a lot more innocuous than Operation Hell on Earth.

And also drop a ton of stuff on the viet CONK.

Sorry, we're not gonna use it was a dramatic reenact, but I think the soul of it is completely accurate. Over twenty million gallons of these herbicides, these various agents were sprayed across Vietnam but also across Cambodia and Laos, and for most of the war, Operation Ranch Hand was based at the Bingha Air Base, which I am surely mispronouncing.

Yeah one O. Their just little side note there is that Asian orange was also common or these these agents were common to be sprayed around military bases and outposts, and you'll see images online if you search for it of soldiers in these trucks that are just spraying. You can see them just spraying these huge swaths of this. It looks like it looks orange, but I think some of them have maybe been doctored a little bit. But

Sure, just like you know, just like an exterminator or someone applying pesticide with those little buckets and those spray nozzles, you guys remember those.

Yeah, is not a much much much larger scale, exactly.

And so here we are with Vietnam and with the use of this herbicide, not just on enemy vegetation, but on vegetation, as you said, surrounding military bases post. But as we mentioned before, agent Orange is not the only crayon in the box. We'll tell you a little bit more about the other agents in the field after a word from our sponsor.

And we're back. So we got orange in one corner. Let's talk about the rest of the group that we've got here. The agent Orange, that name is just a code name referring to the color of the band that's around this giant fifty five gallon drum that contained the chemical and when it was shipped over to Laos or Vietnam or Cambodia wherever they were in these giant drums, and they would sit somewhere and then until they get loaded up onto whatever plane they're going to be on

Sounded more and more like reservoir dogs.

That's exactly what it sounds like to me. Dude, does anybody listening out there? Do you know if that was a reference the reservoir dogs was actually a reference to these agents, That would be fascinating to know, because it sounds very similar. I don't know what we're missing here, which color we're missing, But anyway, I left to ask Chuck. He just did an episode with Broken Lizard about reservoir dogs.

Yeah, it's Chuck Charles W. Bryant from Stuff you Should Know, who is also the host of movie Crush, where you can hear our compatriot Noll popping in.

That's right, I do do the occasional pop in.

Internet says no Ah, all right, Internet.

No connect, thanks thanks a lot.

We'll have to text Quinton and ask him. So. From nineteen sixty two to sixty five, they actually were not using Agent orange, is that correct?

Correct? They started out with purple, pink, and green. Here's the deal, the problem. All three of these were contaminated with what are they called tcdds or dioxin.

Right, and these were supply by Monsanto and the Dow Chemical Company. And let's take a second to talk about Agent purple. Okay, Agent purple was sprayed just indiscriminately across the area. One point nine million leaders were sprayed between that period we mentioned sixty two to sixty five. Unfortunately, it was later determined that Agent Purple had the highest concentration of dioxin in comparison to the other these other mixtures pink and green.

Wow, so really this episode should be called Agent Purple. Well, no, it's not true because Agent orange was sprayed a whole lot more.

Yeah, that's the thing. From sixty five to seventy they switched to Agent's orange, white and blue, and then in what was it, nineteen seventy, they stopped using agent orange.

Yes, and we'll get into why they stopped using Agent orange a little bit later on the show. But that's that's around the time seventy to seventy one, all right.

Still, the facts are the facts, and the facts do not have opinions. Chemicals contaminated with this substance dioxin were used in the area from sixty two to nineteen seventy, and they sprayed a bunch of it everywhere.

Right, Yeah, the estimates and these might have changed by now. The research we got from this is several years old. But the estimated amount of dioxin sprayed over Vietnam and all of that time was around three hundred and sixty eight pounds of it. Wow. Now, I know that sounds like a kind of low number, three hundred and sixty eight pounds overall if you're talking about these large land

I see what you're saying. It's important. But even if we say, okay, it's not like they were spraying pure dioxin, right. The point is that Overall, over four million soldiers had some kind of contact with this substance, specifically with agent orange, and this number is only for the US side. When we were doing research on this, one thing that we found to be strange was that a lot of the emphasis on exposure to this only follow the US side.

When you think about if they're targeting crops and that land that would eventually in the future be used to plant crops again that now has this persistent chemical in the soil, it's no good.

And the government knew, at least the US knew. By nineteen sixty three, the US Army and President Kennedy, the Kennedy administration knew this stuff was capable of screwing up humans just as much as plants. The Dow Chemical Company wrote to the Secretary of Defense at the time and assured him that's Robert McNamara assured him that two four five T that's the trichloral one. That's the one, that's the one was safe for use.

So nice things.

Dal don't worry about this data.

We assure you our government contract stands.

Everything is fine.

And then in nineteen sixty seven, the Department of Defense set up a contract with Kansas City based Midwest Research Institute to dig a little deeper and give a comprehensive analysis of extensive or repeated uses of herbicides.

Herbicides.

Is it a hard Ah, I go with herbicides.

Yeah, that's better. I'm not English, you know.

Heubsibs, and phillots.

Here's what they found.

And now will quote if I may, the possibility of lethal toxicity to humans is highly unlikely and should not be a matter of deep concern.

Now that quote is there's some ellipses in there. Yeah, but still that's the main point. Don't matter.

Hey, hey, it's cool.

It's cool. Chill, And hence the cover up.

There's always a cover up.

The cover up begins nowadays. It's no secret that these substances are harmful to human beings. People exposed to agent orange or any of those other color coded agents will have a higher risk of exhibiting the symptoms we had mentioned earlier, some of the symptoms of exposure. But there is something else in play. The cover up didn't stop in the fifties while they were developing this and in

This substance doesn't just affect the people that actually got exposed to it, whether it was in the field that they used to grow crops or on the battlefield. It affects their descendants as well. Well.

Okay, okay, okay, hard pause, Let's take a second to think about just how insane that is. So that means that if the four of us and if you listening, were in Vietnam during this time, or you were exposed to the substance somehow, we might not exhibit crazy symptoms, but our kids and our grandkids very well could. Yeah, which is insidious, you know. And in June and July of nineteen sixty nine, Vietnamese newspapers began reporting on a

Yeah it's way over here.

Yeah, that is true. But they failed to consider the flood of refugees that moved into the city after their crops were destroyed.

Yeah, I can no longer live on this land. I have to go somewhere else. Now you're in Saigon, a big city, and now all of your descendants are coming down with problems. Right, Oh my gosh.

Yeah, the consequences of exposure to agent orange no ideological boundary. Children of veterans in the Vietnam conflict on the US side, that were you know, the veterans that we're exposed to this stuff, their kids have a thirty percent higher chance of birth defects. And we're not talking you know, we're not talking like a weird mole or something. We're talking about things like leukemia. Yeah, extra limbs, life threatening stuff, Yeah,

If you somehow have not seen them yet, you can watch various episodes of The Daily Show and John Stewart was helming it, or John Oliver's New Show on HBO to really get into the nitty gritty of the VA issues.

Now, the VA has very high quality people working there, many of whom are themselves veterans, right and they have been collecting information from the veterans for years, even specific questions about birth defects for decades. You can look at a nineteen eighty two form from the VA where they have a question that reads the following, is there evidence

Four.

Yes, both before and after Vietnam service.

They don't have any for a conceived while in Vietnam service.

That is true. That gets you know again, and that gets to the more myopic US centric focus of the agent orange problem here in the US at least. So in twenty sixteen, Pro Publica and a paper called The Virginian Pilot obtained this information from the VA, and they made the problem public. Originally, government studies concluded that while veterans in the war did have a higher chance of bearing children with birth defects, herbicide exposure was somehow not

Yeah, here we go. Yeah. If something like that came out as public, it would not be good for anybody involved, except for the victims.

Rights and the VA responded to this twenty sixteen analysis. They said it was quote interesting and quote a step in the right direction. They added that the VA believes the research to understand the relationship between exposure and intergenerational transmission of disease, if conducted, should be done where scientists with expertise in the relevant fields of inquiry can provide leadership.

I'm sorry I fell asleep during that. What was the huh?

It means they said, we don't have a department that is capable of studying this.

Oh, well, isn't that convenient?

They did say they would play a supporting role in further investigation.

They did. Now we need to take one more quick break from our sponsor. But when we get back, we're going to talk about the full legacy of dioxin and agent orange.

And we're back. It's still twenty eighteen, which means it has been almost fifty years since the weaponized herbicides were sprayed across this region. In those intervening years, veterans reported some of the defects that we have mentioned earlier, missing limbs, extra limbs, as you said, no life threatening conditions like leukemia, and they furthermore said that these conditions did not occur

Of stuff, fairly new field, fairly.

New field too. What is epigenetics, Well, it's the idea that.

Again I think we covered this before and didn't we decide that it was there. There are several studies out there about it, but it's not a conclusive thing yet. But what we do have this understanding that when let's say a mother goes through trauma at some point in her life and then gives birth to a baby, that trauma can somehow affect the way genes are expressed in the baby. That's the idea, right right.

It affects what genetic expressions manifest, which genes are switched on or off. And we saw some studies about the descendants of people who were starved during World War Two. That's what it was, yeah, And how that and it has a measurable effect. There is a compelling case, I want to be careful here that it has a measurable and significant effect on descendants. It appears that agent orange

Yeah. I think the position of defensive has kind of just been the standard for anyone involved with the manufacturer or deployment these things.

And Vietnam veterans and their families attempted several times to take this issue to court, but the case is eventually lost momentum.

It's like a class action lawsuit at one point.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, And arguably the research has yet to bear a definitive link, but critics of those findings think that there's something else to play. A brutal calculation, that's right.

The va already spends billions of dollars on veterans, so should it also pay for the medical needs of kids bearing the scars of this war?

That's the question they're asking.

I suppose Mike Ryan, who's a Vietnam vet whose grandchildren suffer from the effects of this exposure.

He believes that the.

Government will never admit the relationship between Asian orange and these birth the effects because quote, if they do, then America is admitting to drafting the unborn.

That is I think the most powerful line in there. And it's true. I mean, you can accuse the guy of waxing poetic if you want, but it is accurate. If these people who have no role in a war that occurred before they were born, are suffering the consequences of this right on both sides, both sides of the Pacific, then aren't they How are they not being drafted? Yeah, and there is, of course, of course, there's a very strong argument to make that people just didn't know what

Yeah, please don't eat any stres rawberries, even if they look delicious and wild and you're like, oh man, those awesome. I got to get some strawberries. Don't do it. Just don't do it. I don't know if strawberries grow out there.

Well, it's a good idea just to donate anything out there if you find it growing. And now, as we as we conclude this episode, we unfortunately don't have a happy ending. We have to quote the VA steps in the right direction. Yeah, but we still don't know what is going to happen to people who are exhibiting symptoms based on their parents' exposure to these substances. And the government here in the States continually says there will be a serious investigation of the phenomenon, and a lot of

Yeah, I'm having such a hard time with this one. You guys, let me she if I can work something out here in my head while we just discuss it. I want to hear your thoughts. So it is so horrifying, I think, I mean, horrifying just encapsulates everything about this. But the thought that a country outside of an internal conflict, which you know, the the Vietnam War, which was fought between South Vietnam and North Vietnam over ideological differences, was

Yeah, it's a good point. Would what would a similar comparison be, I don't know, And let us know if

Oh, if not more, having to load the stuff and then get nozzles ready and get it in the planes. And the people who are on the planes actually doing the spraying are not the people who are going to understand, you know, exactly what the health effects are of the substance. It's just not how it's going to be.

And one more thing, those planes that we mentioned, the C one two threes were destroyed shortly afterward, Oh to remove the Well, people who think there was a cover up would say they were destroyed to remove the evidence of the event, but you can't remove it from people's genetic expression, you know what I mean?

Yeah, that's the you know the other thing, these see one threes or whatever they are. If they had the agent orange just all over it and inside of it and going through the systems of the plane, would you have to destroy it to not expose anybody else who's going to be on that plane to dioxon? Because it seems like it's the stuff is so persistent. It might just be within that structure. I don't know the decay factor or anything.

Oh yeah, okay, So maybe it's not a cover up. Maybe it's just a health risk. Perhaps maybe it's both. It's like asbestos planes. Asbestos planes. Yes, and now our story turns to you. Thank you so much for listening. Do you have personal experience with agent orange? Do you have a relative who was exposed whether or not in the Vietnam War? Let us know, and most importantly, let us know if you think there is any sand to this idea. Is there a cover up on the effects

That's our Facebook group that you have to answer a question to join, and you better get it right or else you're not coming in.

I screenshot at a couple of really good ones.

Hang on and while while Noel is pulling those up. Also right to us. If you are a veteran or a member of the VA and you have experience with that with the VA, or maybe you work for them, and you want to just give us some insider information about like what is actually going on with regards to Agent orange or maybe depleted uranium another thing we've talked about before. Yeah, just right in. We'd love to hear your story.

So spoiler alert the question and joined the Facebook group pretty easy.

Who are the hosts of the podcast? Stuff that I want you to know?

And typically we get you know, one of us, or three of us, or a couple of us, or usually my name is spelled wrong or Ben's last name is butchered in some way. Josh and Ben. I've seen Josh and Ben. That's a popular version of this show in bizarro world. But this is this is this guy, says Irwin D says uh Hurricane, Matthew, Dollar, Dollar, Bill, Benjamin and Evolved.

Super ruler of producers Noel, Wow did that make your day?

Yeah? It was pretty nice.

Guys like Pokemon rules like evolved.

Have you retained your final four?

Got? I hope not? Well?

Thanks so much, man it thanks for screeched that. I didn't see that.

One another one, said Matt and some other guys.

All right, that's why we were walking around smug yesterday. We, of course, are ourselves big fans of Here's where it gets crazy. It's where we can hear from what we consider the most important part of the show. You and We've we've seen some fantastic suggestions for episodes. Received a message recently that I thought the three of us would find interesting for another episode, which was memory technology. Remember that Black Mirror episode with the grains that can replay

Okay, I mean.

I feel like every episode of Black Mirror has a wealth of potential topics.

Big time.

What was that one that broke everybody's heart?

San Jiniparo?

Oh man, yeah, no spoilers, just watch that one beautiful. I watched it with my mom.

Oh dude, are you telling me that?

Yeah, well, did.

You know what it was before you watch it with her? I'd seen it before.

Okay, well check it out if you haven't yet. This one we actually will not spoil. I think the story is strong enough that you should experience it for yourself.

Shouldn't spoil any Black Mirror Superior show, I would say, And that's the end of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can get into contact with us in a number of different ways. One of the best is to give us a call. Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK. If you don't want to do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email.

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