Fellow conspiracy realist. We returned to you with a classic episode this evening, and this one is a banger, stem to stir. When you hear the word pyramids, you probably think of Egypt, but there's much much more to the story. Yeah, turns out there's some hiding in China.
Well, this is astounding. And I remember when we first started picking this this idea up, and we were you remember being we were being sent things about this. Then I think, initially, well, I don't want to speak for you, Ben, but initially I was like, eh, whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that can't be real. Let me check it out. And then stuff gets weird in this one because I think it has to do with the way we look at certain places in China, certain slightly more rural areas in China that do appear to have other stuff going on beneath them, kind of the way we think about parts of rainforests, right, where there's hidden things beneath the folio.
Right. And this episode comes out a little bit before light ar becomes super widespread and affordable. So when you tune in here, you're going to learn about light ar, You're going to learn about the speculation around why these pyramids were not maintained and did not become big tourist spots. Because those who control history control the present, and those who control the present control the future. Let's jump right in.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know.
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
They called me Ben. We are joined with our super preducer, Paul the Ace decond. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know we're going into. I was thinking about this off airmat. We're going into a bit of a pyramid scheme today, but the not the way we ordinarily do.
Oh god, okay, yes we are. We're going into an actual pyramid scheme, where a scheme of pyramids, a scheme about a pyramid.
Several schemes in fact.
Yeah.
So in an earlier episode, you and I explored the stories of non Egyptian pyramids. Do you remember that one?
Yeah? They were all over the world, places where you probably wouldn't expect to find pyramids.
Sure, even if you are a seasoned archaeologist. Right, It's true that while most people, at least here in the West associate pyramids with the Valley of Kings in ancient Egypt, you know, the huge Pyramid of Giza and stuff, the world has tons of other smaller similar structures.
Yeah, you also are you associate the pyramid with a rigid structure in a way built out of some sort of stone or block, right where it's highly defined. But then you get other things like cigarettes that you find throughout the world, especially in places like Central and South America. You got mounds in North America. You can find those all over the place. Even here in Georgia you can find some different kinds of mounds. You can find them in Europe too.
Yeah. In fact, structures similar to pyramids have been found not just in Europe, not just in Mesoamerica, in North America, but in Indonesia, Peru, India, the Roman Empire, Sudan and the Kingdom of Nubia, Greece, Nigeria, all these other places that you would not normally expect to be home to pyramids. In fact, we could likely say, if there's a land mass that you think does not have pyramids on it, you're probably wrong, unless we're talking about Antarctica, which is
a different episode. We've read the emails, we will get to it.
I wonder this is not something that I have researched, and I don't know if you have either, But pyramids on islands, I wonder how common that is because it seems like it would be difficult to find just the raw materials to make a pyramid.
True, true? And would those be more of the mound type things, given the difficulties of creating large works of stone in most islands other than the Rapanui in Easter Island, right, Yeah, that was an enormous undertaking. They also apparently the people destroyed their economy in pursuit of these. Yeah. Such a fascinating tragic story. But it's a good point, Matt. The glib answer to that question, where the glib deflection rather is, well, isn't a continent just a large island? Oh? We don't
think that flies, folks. We think there is a size limit to what should be termed an island.
Well, And as we're going to find out, there are many ways to build a pyramid like structure, and one of them is just to take the earth that exists there and basically press it as hard as you can to create a.
Structure, and quite a few pyramids are exactly that. They are pressed rammed earth. And for a long time, there were tons of legends about pyramids in one of the most mysterious parts of the world, at least to early Westerners, that is China. This vast continent so far to the east, so distant that legend and fact were treated equally because no one could prove one or the other.
And they certainly intermingle, and it was difficult to figure out what's what.
Oh sure, yeah, well.
I mean there were legends that China had these ancient, ancient pyramids that were around long before any other structure, that were perhaps hidden for some reason.
Right hidden from the rest of the world. And this idea makes sense when we look at the historical context of trade restrictions and travel restrictions in China for Westerners, you know, like the secret of the silkworm or silk manufacturing. It seemed very reasonable to people that, of course this civilization would have more secrets, you know, that's just what they do, apparently.
And the ancient secrets are some of the most fascinating, right be sure, are the ones that especially gosh ancient hidden secrets. That's just like perfect. It's the perfect thing for any mystery novel, for any anyone who's even inclined to want to ex flore those regions of their own mind.
Yeah. Absolutely. And I know when we say ancient hidden secrets, many people may think, well, what are you guys going to go full history channel on me here? Not really, but we do have to point out that there are so many real examples of ancient hidden secrets, often tied to religions, to history religions, right, and so it is completely reasonable if we're a person who's living in these ages past, it's completely reasonable for us to assume that
this legend of pyramids is true. However, things change here, and we have to start with the folklore. So here are the facts. After these legends have been established, and they are pretty well insulated into the world of Western folklore as kind of footnotes. There's not a ton of exploration or literature about them. Things change when a modern
sighting occurs. In nineteen twelve, there's a trader and a travel agent by the name of Fred Meyer Schroeder who is the first modern Westerner to record a sighting of a pyramid and the shan Shi province of the country of China. So what happens. It's nineteen twelve, which means he's probably not flying right.
Yeah, he's got one of those hats you know that you find in old movies, the large explorer.
Hats the plinth.
Ha.
Yeah, not necessarily. But he's walking. He's got a guide with him who happened to be a Buddhist monk. And then he sees way off in the distance. He's not really sure what it is, but he kind of squints a little bit maybe and he thinks, oh, that's a pyramid, and there are all these other little structures around it. WHOA what am I looking at here?
And we have a quote, Yes, he says, let's see, he's an old timey American. Yeah, it was even more on Cannae than if we had found it in the wilderness. About those pyramids well to some extent exposed to the eyes of the world, but still totally unknown in the western world.
Yes, yes so. And just the remarkable thing, at least in his eyes, with this discovery is that they're just kind of sitting there. And if you happen to be walking along where he was walking along, or maybe even flying a plane in that area. Well, yeah, or you know, in the air of for some reason, in a blimp.
Even, or a hot air balloon, a hot.
Air balloon, you're going to see this thing and it's just sitting there and it would be very difficult to cover up the fact that it existed.
Right, And by comparison, there are people in the modern day who experience a similar fascination when they attempt to observe spy satellites. Oh yeah, right, because they're publicly unacknowledged. No one's supposed to know about them, but you can't really hide them. They still blink, or you couldn't for a while, right, So it's just in verse as far as elevation and site.
Yeah, sightline.
Yeah, it's not one to one, but it's still it's it's a pretty I don't know, it's somewhere between hilarious and fascinating. But it's important to note here that fred Meyer Schroeder is an actual person. So in a lot of these early explorer stories and tales like the idea of an ancient civilization hidden in the Grand Canyon, what we find is that the person who is our reporter, our eyewitness for this stuff often turns out to be the pseudonym for a unscrupulous journalist or an editor who
wants to get people excited. However, there's a great book you can read. There's an Okay book you can read called Guns, Gold and Caravans. The Extraordinary Life and Times of Fred Meyer Schroeder. It's back in.
Was it written by him.
No, it's written by Robert one Easton, Okay. And Robert Easton writes this biography, which is based on primary sources in first person, Oh, which is I would say that put me off a bit about it. Yeah, just just reading a first person biography is is a little weird to me. But it does go through the life and times of this guy. So we do know that he is real. We do know that in nineteen twelve he saw something.
Maybe it was just pyramid, like you know, maybe it was a structure that appeared to be a pyramid from that distance from his vantage point.
Right. So one of the initial questions some of the more skeptical of us in the crowd may be asking, is what's the difference between what looks like a pyramid in in a close to mid distance and a mountain. You know, given the right terrain, a mountain could look pyramid esque, just a hill maybe yeah, or just a hill. What's the difference.
Be that?
As it may, Schroeder goes on to have many adventures, and our story leaves him. It jumps to nineteen forty five. There's a US Air pilot named James Gosman on the return leg of a supply run from China to India. And during this run, just to imagine the cartography here, during this flight, they leave from a position China to supply arms or food other various sunderies to a spot in India, and it's a round trip thing, so they
fly back to China. This can be dangerous because there's not a huge margin of error for the fuel tank. They have to go over something called the Burma bump, which may be familiar to people who have looked into this era of time in this part of the world.
So the Burma bumps the problem. The guy's flying back to China after dropping off these supplies, and due to engine trouble, he has to lower his altitude, so he was much lower than he would have normally at this point in the trip and that's when things get kind of weird.
Yeah. He again, very similarly, he sees what he believes to be a pyramid.
And this is no ordinary pyramid to him. This thing is huge. He says, it's got to be bigger than the pyramids in Egypt, and it must be built of some sparkling white marble or polished stone. And why does it have why is that jewels encrusting the capstone? What the hell is going on? But of course he's still got a land his plane, so he makes a note of it. He flies back over and he is convinced. We do have to say, in his defense here or
in defense of his account, he is a professional pilot. Yeah, so he is familiar with how things appear from the air. He gets the concept of perspective and the various factors that could influence his vision because he has to rely on this vision. It's nineteen forty five. He has to rely on this vision in order to stay alive in the air. So he is one of the most reliable witnesses possible at this point. And he's not the only person who sees this.
No, So that was nineteen forty five when James Gosman saw it. Then two years later, March twenty eighth, nineteen forty seven, Colonel Maurice Sheehan, he's the Far Eastern director of the trans World Airline. He recounted a sighting that ended up in the New York Times. Actually his recounting, and we have another.
Quote, would you do the honest?
Absolutely? I flew around a mountain, and then we came to a valley. Directly below us was a gigantic white pyramid. It looked as if it were from a fairy tale. The pyramid was draped and shimmering white. It could have been metal or some other form of stone. It was white on all sides. What was most curious about it was its capstone, a large piece of precious gem like material. I was deeply moved by the colossal size of the thing.
And a few days after this, there's a photo that emerges. It's printed in the New York Sunday News. This photo is allegedly of the pyramid that they are describing, and Matt we you'd pulled up the original photograph. There it does it looks like a man made mound. It does, certainly, it doesn't necessarily match the description that Sheihan and Gosman are putting on it, probably due to the quality of the photograph and the fact that it's in black and white, so you don't see the same color values.
Yeah, it's high contrast black and white. The angle that it's at you can see the shadow from the sun casting the pyramid shape, so you can tell that it is actually pyramid shaped. There's not much around it. It looks like there may be some structures of some sort on one of the sides. Yeah, but yeah, it's I mean, it definitely is pyramid shapes.
So this and similar stories they draw a great public interest and the game of telephone begins. So now when you read about these encounters on many sites, what you'll see is that the quote from Sheehan is attributed to Gosman as well as the photo. That doesn't discredit what they're saying, But it is important for us to note that people started mudding things up pretty early on in this story. So for many people, even in twenty eighteen, that was the first time the West was aware of
these structures. That's what most people believe. That's what many of us believe. It started in the nineteen forties. What's happening now we'll shed some light on this. After a word from our sponsor, we're back and we're going back in time. We're going to the first Western mention of Chinese pyramids, which is not in nineteen forty seven.
No, it goes back to sixteen sixty seven when Jesuit Athanasius Kersher writes about them in his book China Monumentous Illustrata. And you can actually find this on archive dot org if you choose to go down that rabbit hole. It is really interesting looking. You can flip through some of the pages and look at it. It's got some great maps in there of China. It's got lots of writing that I cannot read. It's a cool manuscripture book. It's very very cool. Oh wow, really great illustrations in here.
And in this book he conducts more of a survey of these various structures. Yeah, and as you said, doesn't spend an inordinate amount of time on any particular one, but he does mention them again sixteen sixty seven. And if we jump back to the days of Gosman and Sheihan and the various things being published in newspapers about these pyramids, we find that bless their hearts, as they say in the South, and outfit named the Science Newsletter tried to dispel some of what they saw is exaggeration.
This publication exists today, by the way, they are known as Science Its News. On April twelfth of nineteen forty seven, they said, quote, the Chinese pyramids of that region are built of mud and dirt and are more like mounds than the pyramids of Egypt, and the region is little traveled.
American scientists who have been in the area suggests that the height of one thousand feet or three hundred meters, more than twice as high as any of the Egyptian pyramids, may have been exaggerated because most of the Chinese mounds of that area are built relatively low. But the most important part of this story, and this quotation, comes at the end.
The location reported forty miles sixty four kilometers southwest of Sean is in an area of great archaeological importance, but few of the pyramids have ever been explored.
All right, so let's think about this, as so many academics want to say, let's unpack this. So the argument here is that experts are aware something exists out there, and they believe reports of the structure have either been purposefully or accidentally exaggerated, And although they gently point out that a pyramid is not automatically the Egyptian structure most people think of, they do admit that most scholars don't know what's inside these structures, or how they were built and so on.
So many questions still remain right.
And researchers like Chris Meyer are certain that the pyramid depicted in the nineteen forty seventh photo that we just described is actually the Mao Ling mausoleim of the Emperor. And while it is the largest tomb built during the Han dynasty, it's still only about one hundred and fifty four feet or forty seven meters high. So if you look at modern photos of the mound at this masuleim, it does bear a striking resemblance.
Oh yeah, for sure, I'm looking at one right now.
There's a little more tree cover right as the trees have grown there, but it's still it's looks close enough for government work. This is where the mysteries remained for several decades. We knew there was something there, and the witnesses all proved to be real people rather than inventions of journalists. But we had no clue how old these structures might be, and we didn't know what might be inside, at least that is until now Here's where it gets crazy.
So we may have solved that mystery of the legendary white Sparkly Pyramid. These recent investigations have revealed a lot more about ancient China than we thought they might. In August of twenty eighteen, there's an issue of Antiquity, a
journal published by the Cambridge University Press archaeologists. They revealed that while excavating a ruin that historically people had thought are just scientists and archaeologists had thought it was part of the Great Wall, they actually stumbled across something completely different.
Insanely different. I would say, you know how often in popular reporting, a small thing that could be maybe a possibility is turned into a height BuzzFeed y esque headline by different authors and stuff. This happens all the time in the world of experimental physics.
Right pretty much any science, pretty.
Much any science. This is unusual because this is the real deal. Everything we are about to tell you is absolutely true in China. What they found when they thought they were looking at this other part of the Great Wall was a four thousand, three hundred year old metropolis at least that old, a city that was lost completely
to history, with a massive pyramid at its heart. This pyramid is at least two hundred and thirty feet tall or seventy meters tall, and it spans fifty nine acres or twenty three point eight hectares at its base.
Now that is massive the essentially the area that it covers. Yeah, So just for a little perspective here, the Great pyramdive Pyramid of Giza, it has a height of about one hundred and thirty nine meters, so we're looking at seventy meters versus one hundred and thirty nine meters. So this,
this new pyramid is significantly shorter. But the Great Pyramid of Giza, this massive thing that we all imagine when we see a pyramid, it only takes up about five and a half hectares at its base, Yeah, compared to twenty three point eight for this new pyramid.
And this makes this new pyramid a much larger structure by some measures. Right, But also you know, we know this goes down to the construction methods, Yes, because one pyramid is stone, the other one we think is rammed compacted earth.
We think, we think, but it makes sense because of its location that we'll get in too.
Yeah here in a second, and it gets weirder. So this pyramid, which again was entirely lost to history, along with the city, which were just spoiler alert, the city was huge. The pyramid was decorated with eye symbols and anthropomorphic or part human part animal faces.
The yeah, yeah, I eyes it had. It had eyes, pyramid eyes and animal human hybrids. It's very similar to Egyptian things that you will see in hieroglyphics. Just putting that out.
There, and now I'm thinking of the eye of the pyramid on the dollars in our wallets. Oh boy, that's true. So, according to the scientists who conducted the dig or are conducting it, these figures may have endowed the stepped pyramid with special religious power and further strengthened the general visual impression on its large audience. It's stepped right, so it contains eleven steps. They're not the kind of steps you can easily walk up. These are the right angle kind
of things like a zigguratt. Almost.
Yeah, it's almost like floors in a way. It's not the same, but it feels similar to them.
Each of these steps is lined with stone. On the topmost steps there were extensive palaces with wooden pillars, roofing tiles, a gigantic water reservoir, and domestic remains related to daily life. The rulers of the city lived on top of this pyramid on the eleventh step, of course they did on this pyramid carved with eyes. And also it looks like they had the artisans and the skilled crafts people living or at least working there. And they were a set
of walls surrounded this enclosure. And then there was another set of walls surrounding the pyramid, which strict access by the common folk. And then there was another set of These are all stone walls, by the way, except no substitutions religious despots. There was another set of stone walls surrounding the city, so there are at least three to four degrees of protection these There are ramparts as well. It was a big deal. It was an entire city
and was on lockdown. It also may be home to the oldest mural yet discovered in China.
That's really cool, but it.
Gets stranger still, right when should we tell them after.
A word from our sponsors. So as Ben was saying, before the walls of this area, the two separate walls make this a gigantic space. And for some reason, somehow, even though it's such a large area, this place was completely lost to time right now to what it's modernly called is Shimau. We don't know what it was called, you know, when it was flourishing. We don't have any idea what what the civilization was or the people were.
But for over five hundred years it flourished and grew, and eventually it reached an area of nine hundred and eighty eight acres that's the city itself, or four hundred hectares, and it made it one of the largest cities in the world at its time.
Yeah, one of the largest cities. We had no idea existed. We knew these ruins were there as part of the Great Wall, but no idea what was going on. Much less it was home to a pyramid. But what we do know now is that it was very strange place where at least it would seem alien to most modern observers today is a very very religious area, yeah, sort of, And you know, religion was a dominant political structure at the time, rights.
As was in most pyramidal structures found throughout the world, there are spaces of religious importance.
Right absolutely, so we have made or these teams have made some discoveries that are still baffling to some degree. So as the excavations continue. Archaeologists have already noted numerous aspects of the site, but one thing that particularly interested them is the wealth of jade artifacts that are crammed into spaces between the blocks and every structure in Chamal found so far, the archaeologist imagine this was meant to
imbue the site with more religious power potency. Yeah, or the perception thereof.
I'd love to know more about that. Just get like as they're finding more, As you know, a couple of years from now, maybe even a decade from now, we learn more about the significance of the jade in these structures.
And why weren't they stolen?
Yeah, it's just been sitting there.
And the most grizzly part that we saved for last. There are also remains of numerous human sacrifices. How many we don't know yet. Because these excavations continue. In the outer gateway of the eastern gate on the outer rampart alone, so toward the very outside, the research team already found six pits full of human heads decapitated human skulls.
Yeah, and these are just pits where bodies were dumped. But in this case it's not whole bodies, it's just the heads.
And some of the victims may be from another nearby archaeological site to the south of Schimau, and the people of this city may have conquered that neighboring site, and these victims are believed to have been taken to the pyramid as captives during the expansion of the city and then ritualistically killed for some religious give or take. We don't know the religious practices of the people who populated this city, yet we don't know how they influence creator China.
In fact, the paper that we mentioned that was published in Antiquity is almost I mean, it's it's about how what is seen as the periphery of modern Chinese civilization today was once a center of a civilization. Now those things can shift. So it's a fairly dry paper. It's it is. It's not full of BuzzFeed y headlines, which I respect, but be aware if you find a copy. It is an academically centered work of thought.
Well, it's a it's a it's a really I love thinking about it because it makes you change and question your thoughts about where civilization was developing in China at the time. Where were the and it's what you exactly what you're saying the papers about where were the centers of power? Because it feels like this place just with its size and the way it was militarily built, you know, to withstand all kinds of attack, and it was also
a religious center. It makes it feel as though this perhaps played a large role in the bigger area where it's located.
And here's another part of it that's strange. I mean, you're absolutely right. We don't know why they disappeared or how they disappeared. We don't know what brought about the downfall of this five hundred plus year old city. Could it have been drought or famine? Those are two Those are two big factors and a lot of disappearances of ancient civilizations. Could it have been warring tribes or neighboring communities. Could it have been a disease? Could their violent religious
practices have caught up with them? Is it dismissive for us to say violent religious practices. Maybe that's a good point, But here we have it. If a few years ago, if someone had told you or Matt or me that a secret empire flourished in China, powered by a religious belief in human sacrifice, probably have thought they were bonkers, right, Or you would have maybe put it in the same cognitive bucket that we reserve for allegations of ancient aliens stuff like that.
Or you would have just said, I think you get the wrong area.
Right, You would have said, maybe you're thinking of meso America. Yeah, right, Well it just goes to show how many more discoveries await us. Our species is going to find things in the stars, in the ground, most particularly in the oceans
beneath us. I'm pretty certain we're going to see more and more of this stuff as the technology to build reconstructions of things swallowed by the waves, As that technology increases in sophistication, decreases in price, we're going to see some startling things.
I just want to say how much I love the phrase things swallowed by the waves.
It's true, that's what happens, I know.
I just enjoy that phrase everything is.
Terrible and we're all gonna die.
Well, that's true, I mean, that's definitely true. No, no, Ben, Ben, you're right because I agree and I'm right there with you, buddy.
Well, thank you, Matt, thank you very thank you very much. I'm sure it is an ancient phrase that exists across many languages. I do have to crack myself. It's pith helmet, not plinth.
Oh, pith helmet.
Pith helmet. That's the that's the safari helmet.
Yeah, that's pity.
Yeah, the old doctor Livingston, I presume exactly.
So what do you think was the significance of Schumau and this new pyramid and this new city that's been found out near the Great Wall? Have you ever been to the Great Wall and maybe seeing something near there that perhaps was this. Do you have any stories just in general from China and your travels or do you live in China and you could tell us something about
any of this? Is there more? Because everything we've read so far, as academic papers and just some you know, some online journalism about what's been going on there, we'd love to hear a source from a like a primary source from the area and tell us about it. If you want to do that, you can find us on Twitter where we're Conspiracy Stuff Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. Facebook is conspiracy Stuff and you should definitely join up
with our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy. All you have to do is answer a question about who hosts the show, and if you're listening to this one as your first episode, you need to put Matt, Ben and Nol because that is the correct answer. Although we will we will take bag of badgers.
Sure, and I'm if I'm the I'm notoriously happy to let somebody in if there's something that makes me.
Laugh, Oh I do answer, don't tell cat.
Sure, And that's that's kat Riley, one of our moderators. Shout out to you, Kat, Shout out to Zach and the rest of the team. Oh yeah. Additionally, we are going on tour to a city near you. You can find details about that on our website. There's probably depending on where you live, there's probably an ad playing about it too. So yeah, forgive our accident redundancy. If if there is redundancy that exists.
We don't need your forgiveness. This isn't this isn't redundant. This is important, Ben.
There we go. Well, you know what, Matt, You're right, because I was all a segue for me to say. If you are a Mandarin speaking or Cantonese speaking listener, please forgive us our mispronunciations. Okay, that when I am going to stick with Yeah, the tour thing was just trying to get to a get to a segue there, but speaking Oh yeah.
Go stuff. They don't want you to know. Dot com and click on the live shows a little link there and you will get tickets if you.
Wish, yes, yes, please buy them for your friends. By you buy them for your relatives. You know, if you have relatives that you think would find this particularly interesting, then then let us know it. Let us know who's going, and maybe we can give them a shout out on air.
There you go. It'll be a great date.
It actually will be as being to talk to you about this off air, Matt. But I think we have a couple. Yeah, I think it will actually be a good date show. But the best way to find out is to join us on tour, or you know, you could try to ask us for spoilers. I don't know if you'll get any. As Matt said, we're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all the good ones, all this stuff, but.
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