CLASSIC: Children and Prison

Welcome to the show, fellow conspiracy realist. This Evening's classic episode. Just so you know, it's kind of biased. I'm gonna be honest. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think children should be put in prison.

Hot take from mister Bolin. But I think one that we all.

Share, humanity, especially the United States, has attempted to grapple with that question, right, what do you do with a child when they have committed an act that is pretty heinous, that would put an adult in like behind bars for the rest of their life.

What do you do?

I think we all probably learned that term for the first time in movies where you hear you'll be tried as an adult, stuff like that.

I feel like I'm tried as an adult constantly. Now I don't like it so and for too many millennia now right, it's getting old. But in this classic episode, which is really more of an interview than an episode, we were very fortunate to speak with to speak with noted activists Julian Wyatt and Julian talks specifically not just about incarceration of juvenile humans, but also a question that people often skip over when an adult is arrested when

Let's find out.

From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nola.

They call me Ben.

We are joined with our super producer, Paul the po decand but most importantly, you are you and you are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Parole officer or you know. We're big fans of acronyms. Just mail us your favorite, mail us your off Oh boy, uh yeah, right now. Usually Paul will have a talkback Mike turned on so he can tell us how lame he thinks our jokes are.

We took it away because he was hurting our feelings.

So he's throwing us thumbs up and thumbs down. My friend, let's hope we do him proud. That was just shade, all right, And we have you know, you can tell we all get along famously, folks, And we have a lot of levity on this show. And part of the reason that we're opening with some jokes today is because today we are going to examine something that is incredibly important, not just in the US, but in the world overall. And it's also something that isn't fully explored in your

This is a topic today that you probably won't know a lot about unless it's touched your life in some way very close within a few degrees.

Absolutely, I mean, and now we are seeing some very alarmists I would say, reasonably so headlines that is pushing some of the stuff to the forefront, which we'll get into as well, but beyond that, it's certainly not something that was across my day to day thinking.

Friends and neighbors. If you are a resident of the United States, you've probably heard about the burgeoning and longstanding problems with this country's justice and incarceration system, and our episode today focuses on another aspect of that system that the authorities, the politicians, and yes, the private prison companies

Thank you for having me.

Julian, tell us tell us about the organization you're a part of and what you do within that organization.

Yeah.

So, Forever Family is an Atlanta based nonprofit that was founded in nineteen eighty seven by Sandra Barnhill. She's still the current executive director and CEO. The work we do is pretty much aimed at maintaining and preserving the family bond for children or families who are experiencing incarceration. So one of our taglines is surrounding children with the love of family. But that's also like our approach as well.

And for real quick statistical backgrounds here, we know that the US represents about four point four percent of the world's total population but houses around twenty two percent of the world's prisoners. And it was shocking to us. It was shocking to us that children were not included or were missed in the narrative. As you say, we'd like to ask a couple of questions about the kids themselves. Do they have a typical age range or does it go across the spectrum.

It's us either across this spetrum. So even for our organization, we work from infants all the way up through to the age of eighteen.

Wow, So these are you said, you're primarily servicing women's prisons, and so these are moms that you're going to visit. Yes, and you're taking the children to go visit their.

Moms in prison. Correct? You have you actually physically gone along with some of these visitations.

I have my first present visitation back in twenty fourteen when I was first interning at Forever Family, and it's a powerful and moving experience. We get to the organization about five o'clock in the morning. We provide you know, meals to the children. You know, we try to just make it as upbeat and friendly as possible though, because I know for some they are excited and also for some it's kind of a difficult, you know, difficult situation. But we you know, we make sure that they have

So it's just it's just great experience.

You could tell that it benefits both the mother who's Incarsprador as well as the child. So statistically wise, if you maintain this relationship, then those who are in prison are more likely to be conscious of their behavior while the while they're serving their time, and also it decreases the likeliness of recidives and that they'll return and reoffend.

And let's go back to something that you just mentioned that may amaze and surprise a lot of us in the audience here, and that is the process that not just the children, but you and everyone who attempts a visitation has to undergo in order to actually make it in to visit the people in prison. You said it's an hour long process.

It is, and we try to get there as early as possible so we get to the front of the line and make sure that the children have as much

At the same time, any any kind of bureaucratic system like that, it always feels like you're in some kind of cattle call or you're stuck in some way. It's very claustrophobic, I think is a word that I I used to describe it.

I can't imagine for a child having you go through that.

And that's a great point about bureaucracies, Noel, As you just said, these are arduous organizations, some would say inherently. And when we are talking about bureaucracies for institutions that are seen as a quote unquote justly punishing someone for taking a taboo or a legal action, that oftentimes the reforms of those bureaucracies fall to the bottom of the list when it comes to funding, when it comes to

Yeah, that's very true. So I think we do criminals. They're lay with as a master status of always being criminals and need to be punished accordingly. We know, you know, sometimes sentencing is not as rational or you know, it's in line in regards to the offense. But I think deministrates spectations by society also believes that these kids are the incarcerated, uh will end up with their parents, and so they treat them accordingly, and they don't believe they're

The idea of like a self fulfilling prophecy, right exactly.

And will return to the untold story of incarceration and the children it effects with Julian Wyatt after a brief word from our sponsor.

And we're back and uh off air.

We were somewhat joking about private prisons.

Which is some real gallows humor.

Is it really is?

But we brought up a company that was formerly a guess known as CCA, the something Corrections of America, the Corrections Corporation America.

Yeah, so, Julian, you told us that they recently changed their name.

Yes, I was doing some research on them recently, and they rebrand themselves as cor Civic. I'm sure for more civic cor Civic Yeah, okay, I guess a little less harsh the core.

Of civic right, all right, it should have taken it all away and become like the Happy fun Time Company.

Geez, that's what they're reagion for things.

Yeah, but they rebranded, I'm sure for different reputations and stuf.

What they've beginning over the years.

That's such an anock you us non name. It's like, what does that mean? What does that tell us anything about what you do?

Right?

Private housing, that's what they call it housing.

So could you could you tell us and our audience a little bit more about what we mean when we say private prisons.

Basically just as as a term kind of explains there. It's some of these prisons are run by private organizations and then they have such a big state at you know, maintaining or the status called mass incarceration or you know

Yet they have a minimum guarantee bodies and.

Bunks, correct correct minim quotas for sentencing than the whole mandatory and the most singing thing comes into play as well. So it gets deep, and I have a pretty large ticket percentage of the amount of printons that they run in.

So it's what some might refer to as the prison industrial complex because there's money going into the system. There are people that have things to gain from this monetarily. I just was gonna briefly bring up I once did a story for public radio about a town where they had lost their entire industry.

It was like a in the housing boom.

I can't remember the name of the town now, but it was in Georgia, rural part of Georgia, and they had lost their whole manufacturing. It was tied to like textiles or something, and so they wanted this prison. They wanted it's so bad because it was going to give jobs. And I went to like an event that the CCA people did, and it was just like telling them how.

Great it was gonna be. Everyone was gonna have jobs. And they didn't end up getting.

It, but it was like it was just weird to me that we're like, please please give us this prison.

It's surreal, isn't it. And this goes to a systemic issue. You may have seen in the news number of years ago about certain judges who got caught sentencing kids wildly outer proportion off to juvie to juvenile detention centers because they were guaranteed a certain payment per head. Luckily, for now,

Yeah, so there's definitely a relationship between corporations and politicians. This has come up and I was in the last decade, there's been they try to keep you no hush hush, but there's individuals who are lobbying to maintain this Stitus quote with these minimm sentences and so forth.

Definitely, Man, I have a question.

In Atlanta, in particular, we recently had a change in the mandate of police officers to not take people to jail for marijuana for certain amounts of marijuana. It's not so far as to say, marijuana is now legal in Atlanta, but for all intents and purposes, cops aren't supposed to take you to jail if you have a joint or a certain amount of We don't.

At their discretion.

That's a whole thing. But my understanding of it was it was an effort to prevent some of this overcrowding and some of these low level offenders that end up in the system and get completely screwed over for the rest of their lives.

What do you think about that?

Yeah, that goes back to, oh my gosh, the war on drugs and cracking all that exactly from the seventies and moving forward. But I think they're on both sides of the alan I we're seeing a need to this is a problem. Mass incarceration is a problem. Is costing a lot of money in regards to the federal budget and everything else. So now I think mandatory prisons is.

Let's define the term real quick, just just just to catch up with the idea of mandatory minimums.

So it's basically means that no matter what, if you get caught with safe for drugs and some enjority of individuals who are incarcerated legislation has passed and policies say that you have to receive a certain amount of prison or jail time for this offense.

Yeah, and it's usually not small.

Not small, and it's actually increased over the decades.

Yeah, And it's the minimum.

And it's and it's a there's a meta level to it as well, because mandatory sendency might not just kick in for a possession of X amount of drug y. It also can kick in if this is your second or third test crime.

Three strikes.

That was a three shrikes and that was yeah Clinton, that was she was Well.

I really appreciate you pointing out that that was under President Clinton.

That was that was Yeah, and that's going to come up a little later.

Actually, Yes, it just goes to show money isn't partisan. I mean, we we can we demonize certain parties and raise up others. When you look at the numbers, there's stuff happening on both sides that are feeding the beast.

You know.

Definitely, money votes for itself exactly, and it votes every day. Yeah, So what if it's okay, We'd like to ask you a couple of biographical questions. What what drew you to this project, this mission and where would you like to see it go?

Great question.

So I'm fortunate enough that neither my mother nor father were incarcerated through my childhood. But I can't say that that narrative hos true for some of my close relatives as well as my childhood friends that I've grown up with originally from Los Angeles, California, so you know, and I wouldn't say the Santa Monica's in the hollywoods whom I like, long beaches in Englewood and you know, confidence so some of these like urban areas who are now are decaying and so forth.

It's just something that I've been affected by.

I know, there at times when I've seen friends get arrested and it's been as simple as something that hasn't been as dramatic. And there are times I've seen doors being kicked down and everything else in between. When I was a child, I opened up the door and there goes to the FBI saying they're looking for, you know, a wanted criminals. So and as a child, that's simwhat traumatized.

And you know what I mean.

And even though we're speaking of like the family as a unit, there have been times, like my mother has had to you know how some of my friends or some of my cousins, because mounts and uncles have been involved in the criminal justice system, are now incarcerated and to avoid them getting right to the coming ward of the state and getting the foster carrying everything else like that, my mother, you know, stepped into the plane and wanted to do her part and ensuring that you know, children

Children like to eat right.

So it's it's, it's, it's it's things like that that it just hits home and then moving out here. I got involved with the organization when I was an intern undergrad and just the families and children that i've you know, came in contact with the just resonated with me. I look at them like on my own my family members at this point. So and then progressively I just became more involved in the organization. I'm a member of the

Wow, man, congratulations.

See there's a huge just tribute to the dedication and the love that your family shares to take on those I mean it, in a way, it's a burden. It's also a privilege in other ways to take care of a child in that way. But that's huge because not every family has that kind of bond and that determination.

And can you just.

Tell us a little bit about what happens to let's say a kid whose mom ends up wrapped up in the criminal justice system, goes to prison, and there's nobody else to take care of this.

Kid, mother and father potentially, Yeah.

Yeah, maybe you start with maybe start with the day they learn that they're.

Going, Yeah, like, what happens to this kid?

Not enough emphasis goes onto taking the child into consideration at all when it comes to these sentencing. But from my experience of what I've seen is luckily it's usually a grandparent who takes responsibility of looking at for the child. I know the majority of children who are in program. That's the case, which had its own issues to a certain level. But yeah, once you get rabbed them into

Wow, So is there any state level or federal level substantive assistance in solving this problem?

There possibly could.

Be, but the one that I'm aware of the top of my head, I couldn't speak going.

Okay, so there's a grandparent. That's obviously a best case scenario, but a lot of times there's not. And then you have kids that get in the foster care system, for example. And I know that can end up great for children, that can ultimately be a positive situation where they find their false or parents ultimately adopt them, et cetera. But that is a form of a child being in a system that they have no control over and that at

The ground from what I see on the ground, preserving that that immediate family or that the extended family tends to have better outcomes for both the child as well as the parent who's incarcerated. It's a level of trust and stability we're just having to get you know, outside, you know, entities are actors involved and making decisions, and it just gets a little bit more complex on top of already having a parent incarcerated.

Well, we definitely hear horror stories about the you know situations they can occur within foster care and the foster care system. You know, it's not all horror stories, but that's definitely the ones that rise at the top because they're newsworthy.

If it bleeds, it leads, Yeah, Well, and I know that a lot of foster parents do it because it's like a per kid amount of money that you get, and that's you know, maybe a negative way you can look at it. But also, my ex wife's sister as foster children for years and ended up adopting like five of them, three of which were siblings, and they just have the most lovely, loving, middle class affluent family, then they take care of those kids like they're their own,

Very true, and this brings us to a natural segue something that many many of us listening along, we're already thinking of as soon as we tuned into to this episode. It hits upon something that has made the news in a very real and media and as we record an on going way, we're going to delve into the story behind the stories you've read about children being separated from their parents at the border of the US. Afterward from our sponsor and we're back from about what was it May twenty eighteen.

Yeah, May, it was like early May twenty eighteen up until June twentieth, actually, the day we're recording this episode.

From about that time span, you probably saw in your media of choice, whether that's a social platform or a mass market news program. You probably saw the reports of numerous children traveling with their family or in some cases solo, from a foreign country to the US and then not only being detained at the border, but being separated from their parents. And when we say kids, we're not talking teenagers. We're talking children.

And when we say numerous, we're not talking about a handful, We're talking about more than two.

Thousand, Yeah, twye and forty three according to the NPR as of early May.

Julian, you've you've been following this story, would you say that there is a connection or a confluence between the immigration detainment industry and the prison industry.

So, yeah, I think there's definitely some parallels between our primo justice system as well as our detention system. I think we're speaking on still the di mandatories, indusing and still the same that goes in with these immigration tension centers. There's quotas as well, the private prison industries all so heavily involved in the tension system.

But I think even still.

Just having the spotlight on the children, it's these are still traumatic and dramatic events that they're just probably going to stick with them for each in their life. If they don't, they're not receiving the proper you know, services to trying to combat some of these experiences.

Definitely, you know, it's crazy. I've seen Jeff's sessions, the current Attorney General of the United States.

Jeff Beauregad.

Yes, I just like saying, well, he's described this practice of separating the children from the other family members as a deterrence, as a strategic deterrence to prevent other people and other families with children from trying to cross the

I would say the betrayal of this situation to certain city was intentional. Okay, Like you said, going back to serving as a mechanism for deterrents for those who are most of them are migrating from what Elsavador, Guatemala and Honduras, so they're seeing this on the media that they're gonna, you know, probably hold off from think twice about coming

Yeah, that's the thing that bugged me the most.

It seems very clear there's a lot of passing the buck going on where it's like, we're doing this, but it's actually the folks on the other side's fault.

But we're just enforcing the law. Blah blah blah.

But then you could look at it and say, well, it's really just kind of a deterrent. It's like you're you're you're punishing people for do doing something that technically is legal because a lot of these folks are seeking asylum and then all of a sudden their kids are snatched away because of this zero tolerance policy. So that to me seems like dirty pool.

Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up. It is legal to seek asylum. It's actually under UN conventions, it's legal to seek asylum and entry with any country. It's unfortunately up to that country's discretion, and they're very loose with the idea of discretion.

Yeah.

Well, apparently we're leaving the UN Human Rights Counsel anyway, So that's true.

That happens yesterday.

Yeah, we just did.

We just did.

Wow.

Yeah, great, So let's let's let's keep this. Let's keep this thread. Though with the immigration policy, you notice Matt pointed out from May to June twentieth peak behind the scenes here, folks, Julian, Matt Nolan and I are recording this on June twentieth, and as we were going into the studio here, we learned that the current president, President Trump, had actually signed a document, right that is going to end not the detainment practice, but in the separation practice. Isn't that correct?

That is what I read.

Yes, it's a breaking news story as we sit here and record this now. But pressure has apparently gotten to the administration in that respect, because it's what they call bad optics, right, like, even if you're not technically breaking the law or you're enforcing the law, it's not a good look.

I believe what the president signed is an executive order, correct, that would be, which is which just means that he doesn't have to run it past Congress.

He's a he's a fan of.

Those got something up on time.

We're literally looking at this on our computers right now. It's just talking about, Yeah, he signed an executive order that would end the separations. But instead of putting the parents and children together in these detention centers like the Steward Have you ever been to Stuart Detention Center.

It's the one here in Georgia, right.

Yeah.

I have some friends who've gone and visited there, did some work, but I personally have him.

Yeah, it's it's massive. My sister has done work with some organizations there too, and it's just these huge centers where they're in that in that location, there are families together, some of them, sometimes they're separated, and it's just, man, it is a tough situation for anyone to find themselves in, and especially for a child. And I can't get over this. You guys like Nolan, I have kids. Why do you have kids yet?

No kids yet?

And you and Ben one day, don't worry, you guys are gonna have powerful, amazing kids.

Over here.

But just the thought, Nol, of someone taking your child away and putting them in a cold, dark, just like place like that, without without any chance to either go to your you know, your parents or your grandparents who are some other family men, or just being sent back even you know, just like just leave and go somewhere else.

It makes your blood boil.

And I think that's what happened to a lot of people in this country and around the world.

As we're reading this stuff.

Well, and given like how difficult it is to even get a phone call if you go to jail. Right, I'm only conjecturing here, but I imagine that there's not ready lines of communication between mom and dad and funding son and daughter, you know.

Yeah, And there's one other important point here that we have to emphasize of the many important points, which is that for people who feel that a detainment policy is just for people who feel like, well, you know, it's against the law, don't try to across the border. And even if you plead asylum, it is up to that country's discretion for how long they detain you and whether or not they grant you entry or they kick you

Great question, definitely.

I think some of the most common and we're getting some traction here is some of the reversing of some of the policies that were enacted over the last few decades, with things such as three strikes or mendatory minimum. But also I think we need to put a bigger emphasis on more of a community supervision. So I think a lot of people think that if we you know, in mass incarceration and there's less inmates, then it may necessarily

It does become a form of foster care and away when you're like your grandmother taking care of your granddaughter on. Yeah, that's that's an interesting point. I like to see that. So let's say you're you're someone's listening to this and they want to help out. Is there a place online they can go to learn more or number they can call or what can what can they.

Do to help with this struggle?

Definitely for our resource go to is our website foreverfamuh dot org.

That's Forever Fam.

It's forever f O R E V E R FAM f A M dot org and you get you know, there's informations you could reach out to if you know someone who may be need assistants with you know, navigating through our professional or coman justice system, children who might be impacted, educators, if it's just anything for any other speaking engagement or any recommendations, please feel free your reach

It possible to volunteer and just like show up and help out.

Definitely.

We have events going on pretty much year round. Thing as simple as like back to school programs or events where we're giving out backpacks and you know, just stuff like that, little dinners we host. We have a five k walk that's coming up in August that's actually going to be right across the street. So there's always always ways. No we have to go knocking the windows now, please.

And I just wanted to mention real quick. I couldn't help it.

Notice a Facebook fundraising effort that popped up on my feed yesterday called Reunite an Immigrant Parent with their Child, And I couldn't help it. Notice that headed raised almost thirteen million dollars. It's from an organization called RACES, which stands for the Refugee and Immigrant Center for Education and Legal Services, which is a nonprofit based out of San Antonio, Texas.

So that is.

A very interesting ongoing cause that would be worth checking into as well.

And just to show you how quickly all this is moving, when Paul showed me that Facebook post this morning, they had raised nine million dollars.

That it's insane.

I think when I donated to it, they had raised like eight or something and their goal is fifteen million.

Wow, which is insane.

It just goes to show and then you know, with the reversal of the administration, obviously.

The optics of these things really does matter.

So this notion of well, nothing I can do about it, that's not that's not always true.

That's true, that's false.

So how do you raise money for all of these kids whose parents are in prison domestically?

Well, the thing is that you can make an argument that one of us alone may not swing the needle too much one way or the other. But it's like that old proverb. If you want to travel fast, travel alone. If you want to travel far, travel with people, right, And so the fact of the matter is sometimes this gets cast off as being cliche or whatever, but together we can make some sort of positive difference that is

I believe you're right.

Call it a hot take if we must.

But and obviously this immigration thing is a politically divisive issue, and we're not here to preach politics to anybody. It's more just about human rights, general goodness, and the idea that kids deserve a fair shake, no matter where they come from or what their background is.

Absolutely, the press is a powerful tool and one thing that's important that I think a lot of mass media producers don't want us to know is that you are part of the press. It is a two way street. The people who speak to you can also hear you, So don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to I know it's a hassle. Nobody writes letters anymore, but that's why they matter more.

Now. It's a really good point, bet, Yeah, it really is a good point.

I'm going back to the thing that we've discussed a couple of times on this show, and it is my personal belief that the current administration is in some way like a sleeper agent where they're going in and doing the worst possible things, taking things to an nth degree so that we can all see it first like for the like, truly see it, and then all go.

No weirdest as a society.

That is a really odd if optimistic I mean, and I hope that that's the case.

We hope. So, Julian, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today. We want to leave the last word to you is if you could say anything about the consequences for children who are innocent bystanders in the justice system, if you could say anything about it to whomever is listening to this now or in the future, what would.

That be They have to be even now to be part of this the I guess the dominant air to when it comes to our criminal justice system or not right now? If right they're left out of so much it are affected tremendously buy some of these decisions houss moving forward. Just want to bring a sense of awareness and just kind of raise the consciousness of individuals and know that this is actually, you know, going on and moving forward.

Just to just be aware of that.

Okay, And that's the end of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can get into contact with us in a number of different ways. One of the best is to give us a call. Our number is one eight three three std WYTK. If you don't want to do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email.

We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

Stuff they Don't want you to know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.