Why Fox Television Stations Have Embraced Trial and Error in Daytime

In his conversation with Cynthia, Frank is characteristically blunt about the challenges that local TV stations face in the era of fragmentation, particularly in daytime. He explains Fox's strategy of conducting regional tests of prospective new syndicated shows and how

that's benefited the group. Frank also gives his perspective and how life has changed that Fox since most of the company was sold to is n Franks, executive vice president of Programming for Fox Television Stations, in a twenty eight year and counting Fox veteran, Thank you for stopping by. My pleasure, Thanks thanks for having me. Nice to be back in New York Um. Nice to have a beautiful view in this great new building. So thanks for thanks for inviting us. Things are good here down in what

do they call it Midtown East these days? Here, Yeah, it's it's a little rainy and overcast, but it's nice. It's a beautiful fall in New York day. Let's talk about the programming that is coming out of Fox Television stations. For the last couple of years, you've clearly been on a ramp up of doing a lot more in house development, a lot of some very adventurous formats, trying to break

the mold. You are known for being very candid in your assessment of shows and what is needed, what kind of fresh thinking and fresh ideas are needed in daytime, which I think everybody would agree is a very challenging, challenging day part to program to right now, with the slice of the audience being so tiny and spread among so many outlets, can you talk about sort of what what inspired you guys to really invest in your own original content, original development and and this is something that

started even before the company underwent the separation with Disney. This started a couple of years ago at least, I mean I think there always was. For a while, twenty Television you know, reported to us, and so there were

always projects in development, development and being produced. I think, um, you know, we learned a long time ago that um, he was important to produce some of our own stuff, but be to also realized that we couldn't do it all ourselves, and that a balance was very very important. And I won't go through the list of projects that had to fail before we realized we couldn't do it

all ourselves, but um, that is a fact. So you know, as much as we're you know, doing our own programming, UM, you know, the partnerships we have with out side distributors are more important than ever as well, because there's just less of them, you know. And you know, again we have a lot of shelf space to fill across two

stations and a lot of big markets. So you know, that sort of balance between what we do ourselves and you know, what we bring in from the outside is um is more important than ever, and as well as the idea that we need to do more and take more swings than ever. I mean, lest I would say, over the last decade or so, you know, we were scratching our heads all the time, like why did why do things only happen in September? Or why do you know failed shows stay on for the year if not

two years? You know, we just didn't understand that. We certainly think it contributed to a lot of our ratings erosion. Um And I think that's true with our competitors as well. So the idea of trying to figure out new ways to bring more shows to the table for whatever length of time, three weeks, five weeks, and god knows these days on cable, you know, the runs are six episodes, eight episodes, you know, unheard of a decade ago, fifteen

years ago, it's now this this the standard. Even in broadcast, you know, you don't see as many full episode orders. Um, So why should that be any different in what we do? And I think in the end it comes down to just having the right partners who are willing to think differently,

and that has been a challenge in certain circumstances. But um, overall, I think people are starting to see that it's better to take a look at more things and eureka, you know, potentially lose less money by even doing that, um than taking these gigantic swings and and you know, and really hurting the bottom line and having stations you know, fail and have time periods fail Now doesn't mean you can't have big swings. And we've seen enough of those in

the last few years. And there's a couple now that actually I think of doing, you know, sort of okay, and that's great for the business, but I think we sort of start with this volume. We want to do as many things we can and so twelve months a year we all have new stuff and and that's actually my goal, you know, Um, especially now without a syndication company reporting to us, which has been true for a few years. Um, you know, without that sort of how

are they doing idea? Um, you know, there's no other concerns other than trying to get as much first run stuff on as possible. At least for me, that's the

big deal. And you and Fox has been very much pioneer in in in developing concepts and as you say, putting them on for short runs three weeks, five weeks and a couple of markets so you can just kind of test and get a sense of the pulse of the show and how people, how people respond to the talent, and you talk about are there difficult things in terms of like structuring contracts and deals for a three week

run a five week run. Is that kind of what what you were saying, when you need partners that will be more open up, like you know, they you know, the partners need to understand the endgame, and you know, the the end game is both of us have a hit. You know, how we get there has sort of changed, I think, And uh, you know, it's for years people said, well it's a one in twenty business. You know, you known one out of twenty, you know goes to year

two or year three. Well you know, well then let's do sixty of them, you know, and and you know, and try to improve that batting average. But for sure, you know, structurally, uh, it can get challenging. But if if both sides have the same sort of endgame, you can get to it um And that's been really encouraging over the last couple of years, especially where you know, Jerry O'Connell filled in within those wendy time periods for us,

which was just terrific because that's a real test. Now that's not me picking four markets saying, you know and praying that this is sort of a real look at a well produced television program across the country. Um, well, that's a real test. And by the way, we all got more first front programming as a result of it, So right, and the Wendy Williams Show, which is kind

of the poster child for this process. That Wendy Williams began as a limited test over the summer and then clearly you saw, you know, the indications were very positive. You went national and then this was in partnership with lions Gate and deb Mar Mercury. You went national and here ten years later, it's it's still very French. It

was fun. A couple of weeks ago, we had the star dedication, you know, on the on the Hollywood Walk of Fame and uh, um, you know, we're lucky enough to be there for that, and that sort of was fun to think about how the test was sort of a chair and a camera, a couple of drapes behind her, you know, in a disco bawl. And uh, you know, ten years later, she's she's on the Walk of Fame. So we're we're happy and for her and proud of her. What he works harder. Um, but when I think about

all the projects we've done, since then. It just goes to show how hard it is to do right, you know it is it is. It is tough to do what other than ratings. And I'm curious if there are markets outside of the obvious New York at a Chicago that you like to go to to kind of get a representative sense of good question. I mean, it's it's funny because, um, you know this, many years into doing this, we realize there are certain stations we can put anything

on and it'll and it'll rate. You know, I don't I don't need to get specific about that, but you know there there we you know, are in our Dallas station you know has never had a test that didn't do good ratings. Detroit, you know there's a there's a whole handful of them. So you know, you you'll put those on because you'll see if a lot of people bail from whatever the leading might be. It's obvious maybe there's an issue, but um, you know a lot of what we want look at is to help help the

top markets. And and you know in New York, Uh, to me, is is the most important if you can, if you can, you know, make some hay there and then after that Los Angeles. But again in l A there's a so few rating points around that it's it's harder to judge. Um New York, there are still platforms where you can put things and really judge, you know,

without saying, you know, names of shows that failed. We had one where, you know, got a great lead in people ran, they didn't walk away from the set, they right, and then they came back, you know, and an hour later. So as long as we can get those kind of reads in a in a big market like this in New York, you know, we can get it real, a real taste of it. And your savings in a test if you were too, if you were to have roll the dice on a national rollout, your savings in the

test can be measured in seven figures. Yes, so absolutely, and and it's funny because we've been pitched shows that we're supposed to be. If you asked the distributor national launches designed for national launchs, we refused to do that, have done tests failed, and then said, boy, what a good thing. You're welcome exactly that that we didn't go

forward nationally with that. You know, there's a difference between selling something because you can and selling something because it's the right project or that it fits in stations lineup so that the marketplace wants it, you know, So you know, it's all a big learning process and that and that's you know, part of the fun of it. And you're one of your pritors. This fall has been the national rollout of Words or Less, a game show hosted by Meredith Vieira. It's a real kind of a unicorn in

an original format. My god, in this day and age, that's a headline unto itself. And getting somebody like Meredith, who you know, incredibly accomplished, respected, well known TV personality, that's got to be, you know, kind of a kind of a nice perfect storm for you, no question. And and I remember that test. I remember that pitch. I give Steven Brown and Jack Abernathy were perhaps more supportive of the actual idea than even I was, because I

think game show pitches play well in the room. That's sort of a new way to come and pitch. Game shows is like set up a whole thing and play and that's great, But that doesn't mean anybody's gonna want to watch, you know, um, But we thought there was enough there in the actual game Um, you know, it had its success as a board game, and you know that was great, but UM really attaching mereth to it. I give Steven credit for that. UM really sort of

up the antie on that. And I remember the list of hosts that that they were sort of considering, and there was some really good people in there. But she she was a game changer as far as no pun intended. UM, that was a big deal bringing her in and and you know, she was super professional with sort of a short runway to ramp up, you know, for the the original test and uh. And it's been nothing but a

pleasure to work with h on the show itself. Which interestingly, another great thing about this format is you can wrap it in a couple of months for the year and and you know that keeps the costs in this hemisphere, which is which is nice. UM. So we're real happy with with the job. And in success, you'll own that format. That format will be part of last Yeah. In fact, from what I'm told, there's interest in the format UM

in other countries, in a couple of other countries. So you know, any anything we could do to sort of bolster the situation would be terrific. But Yeah, that one's ours, which we're happy about. Um. You talked about it a little bit. But you know, one of the hard things about programming daytime is, as you said, what you know is a point three cancelation and a point five is renewed. The marketplace in daytime is so diffuse across so many platforms that it's it's got to be so hard to

be it's gotta be so hard to program. Not that it was ever easy to program, but to get a sense of what's working and what people are going to respond to with the numbers being some microscript yeah, I mean, you know, and you know, unfortunately, the reality is a lot of its economics. Um. You know, there are certain rating levels that a distributor can make money at nationally, and there's certain ones that that there aren't. Um and

and that is that is the struggle. I think that the good news is over the last few years there seems to be more projects being launched and and being attempted, which I mean, that's the hope. I mean that that's what will save us, is is that idea that like people continue to take swings, and you're right there there are It gets to a to a sort of a thin level. You're they are looking at a couple of

tents you know here are there particularly nationally? Um? And from there you have to disaw, you know, and what you have to decide is, you know, why is this going to get better? Because I think it's very easy for anybody to talk themselves into why something can stay on. It's a good idea that I think we should keep this on because we can. We should keep this on. But why would you do it if you didn't really think it was going to get better? And why is

it going to get better? You know? What's the plan here? So? Um? You know all that all of it plays in looks around. I I still love to go back to the show and does it fit in our lineup? We we did one um recently where it just was something that just did not fit in what we do and and it was clear, it was so clear, And what we learned from it is that yet we have to be broader. We really have to pay attention to who's watching our stations.

It sounds obvious, but it doesn't always happen, um and and program to those people and and uh, you know which means for us anyway a little broader or a lot broader is really what we have to look at. Do you differentiate regionally much? Because you have such a large group covering so many markets, it's got to be hard to find something that's gonna work in New York and also work in Dallas and also work in San Francisco. Yeah,

I mean we don't. We don't sort of look that way because the good shows will work everywhere, the hits will work everywhere. But you have to you know, no, I think you have to know that they can work in a New York or in l A or San Francisco, because you're not gonna be able to produce them into a national show if you're not getting them in those

kind of markets. I think, you know, a lot of our competitors that don't have those big markets, the groups that sort of you know, have gone into production and done shows. This did well in Memphis and then, but that's not gonna matter, you know, if you think you're going to go national, and so we really need to know that. And uh, you know, I think we've done some sort of regional things or teach some things up

for certain markets. Um years ago, we would do court shows as tests in court blocks, and you know, New York wasn't really doing that well at the time, and so we didn't use New York. It was like, if you could fit in a court block, though it should work. You know, I can't remember the last test we did. It didn't include New York. Now, you know, I think it's really important. And again the hits, you can go

back a hundred years. Little Seinfeld wasn't gonna work because it's a New York show, and you know, Judge Judy is not gonna work in African American markets, and and you know, you hear all these things, but a good show transcends all of it. We're just a couple of months out from the traditional sort of pivot point of

the syndication year, which is January. Obviously a little anachronistic in the world that we live in, especially is for the reasons you were just saying, but it is nonetheless it is it is sort of a time of year when when we start to get a sense of what is going to be coming for the fall and what you know, what may or may not be coming back that could be on the fence. This year we've seen, to my mind, it seems like the the some of the larger distributors that are the First Run business have

a little more ambition this year. We've got some big projects with Drew barrymore with Nick Cannon, some talk shows. We're seeing some different formats of cooking and different kinds of games. What do you think, since you deal with all of the distributors, what do you think is accounting for what's driving this you know uptick, not a surge, but an uptick and interest in producing for First Run

when we when we just talked about the markets pretty challenged. Sure, you know, I think part of it is this sort of a new chene on on the station business over the last few years, you know, between consolidation and acquisitions and you know, cord cutting, um, the importance of or re emergence if you will, of local news at times of disaster and things that have gone on. You know what what I remember hearing fifteen years ago, you know we were old media, you know, and then we heard

it again ten years ago. Um, you know, we're still here and and and still very profitable in many ways, and still the largest sort of news and information you know, for generals a week and every every survey will tell you that local newscasts still in the world of you know, digital and you know, communications on in a nanosecond. It's pretty amazing that all the Pew research studies always say

always still local and national, but that local news. You know, you get up in the morning, you need to know what the weather is going to be. No, And and looky myke. You know these days people will get it on their phone, but it's still maybe the local station on your phone. You know, it's consumed differently, but the

information still carries a lot of wallop, you know. And you know, people would would ask you how do you compete with the streamers and say, well, you know, when when a hurricane happens, they don't go to Netflix, they come to you know k R I V in Houston. You know, we hope um and you know that's you know, our future. I mean, that's we have to be. We have to be number one in being that to people. But I think overall again and the acquisitions, um, you know,

the company consolidation. I mean we're now one of four companies in Fox where we used to be one of. However many right now a much more diverse Yeah, so you know, now we're looked at a little differently as well, because we're sort of a bigger piece of the pie. But and you also have these big companies that have owned that own stations and they realize all the same things that we do in a lot of ways. So you know, if you're gonna thrive, you're gonna need shows,

you know. And you know, network models change. We've seen soap operas go away and there's still some game shows on. But um, get a hit in this business, you'd still be okay. You know, everybody in media world is talking about streaming and the audiences embrace of on demand platforms that are obviously different than the than the live televi you know, the live linear viewing that that we've all grown up with. Um, what on the local level do

you see that is there demand? Is are the audiences for even for local programming trying to trying to move online? Do you feel like that your stations need to have that have a streaming Yes, actually yeah, we do. We were we think that for sure. Um, we we need to be able to be consumed how people are consuming

and so yeah, we definitely need to be there. I think there's a question whether or not our five day a week programming, whether it's syndicated or local, is sort of something that would work on a streamer because I think people consume that differently. You know, they they're not going there. I mean, I don't know how Jeopardy is doing on Hulu or wherever they are. But you know, we've had shows that we put up on streamers and

they just don't exist. So I don't know whether you can take a hit syndicated show, even if it's first run, put it on a streamer and and and have success because that's not how it's consumed. You know what. We do so much about habit, you know, um, so it remains to be seeing let me ask you on the flip side of the first run question. UM, you know

this is um. This has been an incredible time for media right now and big companies taking you know, ninety degree turns in their business models, Disney, A, T and T, NBC going going big into the streaming platform business. All of that is going to add up to, you know, big changes in the supply chain of programming. You know, off network shows, big hits, big hit off network shows have been very important to the Fox TV station group. Are you concerned that the supply of successful off network

shows is gonna win in the coming years. No, no, And I think we sort of saw this common honestly ten fifteen years ago when we when we started, I mean obviously when they when they first started going to cable, you knew things were changing. Um. True, when we bought Big Bang Theory, we knew there was a a concarrent cable window at least friends, you know, million years ago. You had exclusive broadcast for a little while three years I think, and then it went to turn or whatever.

So this was already starting to get brewing some time ago. And then you had DVDs. That was a big problem. I remember, with a big concern, I should say, with Seinfeld, Oh my god, they're putting all out on DVD. What are we gonna do? You know? So then iTunes comes out and they're selling the shows on their on the iTunes library, you can watch them on your iPad, And so this was sort of manifesting itself for a while.

We sort of saw that. Um, we saw that coming. Now, you know, it's sort of coincided to some degree with for some reason, studios producing less of them are the certainly less of them that worked. But between all of those factors, you know, we we thought years ago that you know, sitting around waiting for the next you know, big go off net show was not going to be the way to uh to do it if one came great.

But you know, I soon after we bought a Big Bang, I think are our thought was, the next Big Bang is going to go right to a streamer, you know, the next next Big Bang We're not even gonna get a sniff at, you know. And and as we've acted sort of that way since then, and so would you say that off network programming is less has become less important for us for the station question? Look at the big Bank still makes a lot of money, and we were we're okay with the degree that we're in it,

but we also know that, um, it's waning. And and again, you know, you look at the ratings in prime time. You know, we had a and when we had the studio, we used to get pitched all of these shows, I mean legions of them, and they would all come through. They would all come through where we would get because they all have you know whatever three years in four years in I'm not gonna mention any of the shows, but the conversations would be like, well, why don't you

want this? Well extra about how great the show is. It's a one rating in prime. That tells me it doesn't really matter much in prime to the viewers. What's it going to mean us even less? You know? Um? And then I think when you you started to get projects that people would want to bring out, but then realize that if they put them out, they'd lose money, you know, given the ratings that they'd get some some

well rated, some decently rated and high quality programs. I remember when they had a pull um curb your Enthusiasm and um uh the which McCall it the curb and entourage out of syndication because they were losing it costs them money to actually put it out. That it just didn't make sense. So and there's been a few that didn't go because of that quality programs. And we're not

talking about bad shows. It just, um, you know, when you when when you generate that that kind of audience in your primary run and this was at the time, I'd be like, what's it gonna How could it possibly matter for us? And so how could we possibly pay

for it? You know? Now to put that little idea in with all the other things that were happening with off net and library and everything else and again, and I think Jack coming from Fox News, you know, Live seven, you know, the the idea was, we can't sit around and wait for for the next big bang, you know, um, especially now. Um, and that explains another reason for your ramp up in your own no doubt, No no doubt.

I think it's more about being live and first run as much as possible as it is us doing it. I mean, we'll you know, we have Warner Brothers doing a lot of those shows for us, you know. Der So where it comes from, we can figure it out. But having it, I think it's the main thing, whether it comes from us or not. But certainly the news, you know, doing a thousand hours and news a week across our group. But that absolutely is a big part

of that. Um. You know, I bought all those off that shows at one point or another, which is sort of funny now because now they're going for two streamers for bigger money than they ever saw. You know. It's it's it's hysterical. But um, you have to evolve absolutely DVR proof, As a wise man once said, change or die right. UM, let me ask you about um we're talking about you have you know, two stations in many markets to program and that is a that is more

than a full time job. You also have a lot of multicast real estate, and if I'm not mistaken, you have arrangements with a number of third party providers that have different niches. How is that business overall shaping up? It seems like it's been a good ten years that the various big groups have been experimenting. We haven't been in quite that long. Um. I think that's a good business, or it can be a good business. I think there

may be a sort of glood of channels. A dozen years there's been you know, many more channels added to the mix or friends at wigal you know with me TV and um, you know the movie channel they did with MGM and originally which is this TV like for the first guys in sort of I think, um, you know, sort of foresaw the future a little bit and got in there and did it. But I think that there's been some over the last few years that just you know, just additive. But I don't know what they bring to

the table as far as viewership. Um, you know the names of them. I don't understand what they're even about. Um, you know, it's it's it's about you know, using spectrum and that's fine. Um, but I wonder what the long term play for viewers is going to be on some of these things. I mean what I'm what I like to do. What we like to do is put stuff on these channels that we don't do on particularly on the on the primary channels through alternative. Yeah, I mean

I think that makes sense. We you know, we do movies which is certainly that and H and I, which is a classic television or our drama sort of UM channel, which is fine, and then Buzzer which is a game show channel, which is which is kind of cool. And we've done some things with them that are sort of cross pollinated. The one that we most recently did UM

which is decades with Wigel. That one may be one where we get in and you know, provide some content for it, sort of a historical channel they do first run with news personalities like Bill Curtis and they look back at history. And you know the fact is we have um, you know, sixteen markets with archives, you know, and so there there's ways that things can be packaged to be additive to that. Um. So even in our own world, you know, the idea that we'd be producing

movies to put on movies, that wasn't gonna happen. But for something like decades, I think it could be something we could we could enhance just given what our businesses on the primary stations. Would you say that that, you know, developing the multicast real estate is a priority for the station. It hasn't been, you know, it hasn't been. You know, we we didn't know for a while, like what was gonna have the spectrum auction was going to chake out? You know, right now we're doing the best we can

with it. Um. You know, whether that's the ultimate future U for us, we'll we'll, we'll wait and see. But in the meantime, we have some some some channels that were proud of that. You know, we've gotten good feedback on that makes some money and uh, you know we're going to continue in that manner. Which which of the channels have been most successful for you? Um? You know,

again we're kind of more passive in it. You know, you don't but I mean probably, I mean that's the one that's been on the longest Um, that's the one that when it comes off or any amount of time, we get hate mail, you know, just kind it might be from the same guy. You know. I think that's probably correct. And you know, Buzzer is an interesting one too, because you get you know, get quote, you get like posts on Facebook. I think there's unfortunately people out there

that think that these shows are really on now. Um, so you know, I'll leave that up to their therapists. But but you get some interesting feedback on some of these channels. But I think Movies was the one that was the first one we got in and we sort of own that and have contracted with Wily sort of run it for us. The other ones were not as active.

It's basically we're you know, they're leasing our signal. But you know, we certainly want, you know, the programming to be of quality, and the people that we've worked with this far thus far have have certainly delivered that. So but I think there's too many of them. I think something need to go away um overall, and and you know, we'll see how that develops. I think it's interesting to see what that real estate becomes for sure. Yeah, Well

there's there's there's no question. But it is interesting though because if you you know, I'm not advocating gourd cutting necessarily, but you know, if you certain markets, if you look at what you can get over the air, um, seriously, it looks like cable in the eighties, if you have you have you had a national sports net on there, you'd be like set, you know, And it's really interesting,

um the spectrum. You know, how the use of the spectrum and how how varied some of these channels are along with your your big broadcast stations in each market. So you can get by with that if you had to, you know, if you had a good antenna. UM. But um, I still think they're I think we've we've pushed it, you know, as far as the number of channels that are there, and I think there's only so much dr money around that. You know, it certainly has taken taken

some out of the syndication pocket. There's no question about that. In terms of some of the lower end advert no question, no question about it. And and I think you know, stations that are fourth or fifth or sixth in the market have suffered too. For some of these stronger dig nets and those are typically on the third party ones that you are not that you just you say, at least the space, those are typically barter deals revenue. No, we we don't sell our on on our particular digit nets.

We don't sell any of the add times. So it gets sold and you know, we get a piece of that depending on what markets we're in, you know, et cetera. So let's take a step back a little bit and just I'd love to ask you, just in the big picture, how has your how has the world for the Fox television stations changed from an operational basis, now that the now that the that the separation from Century Fox, that that Disney deal is now lock stock and done. How

has your job changed? You know, it's interesting, I you know, our day to day doesn't feel that much different, but there certainly is a lot more collaboration, you know, having four companies in this as part of this bigger company. Um, you know, I think his spurred you know that, and coupled with us A bunch of us moved back to the West coast, so we're also of in the same space. You know, a lot of the time, I think it's

been really sparred. A lot of collaboration and and just communication people and you know, are much more aware of what everybody else is doing. And there've been actual committees set up between the network and the stations, between stations and sports how do we best exploit the platforms that we have and more importantly, the product that we have, um,

you know, across all of these areas. And and I know um Lachlan Murdoch is laser focused on that, on it being one company, which now is doable because it's those four divisions essentially Fox News, Fox Sports, Fox Broadcast Co and Fox Television Stations. You can count them on one hand, it you can. Yeah, you know, I don't know how many hands you needed, you know before that,

but before it was like a company of plus people. Yeah, and and but what's been really cool about it too is you know we were sort of the division that you know, it was run out of the East Coast, and you know, we were sort of here but being out there, you know, we have a lot of folks that work in these different areas saying, well, what so, how did this happen? What did I see that you just you guys just did And you know, they're much more curious about how we do our day to day.

I mean, and everybody knew we made money, but um, you know, I think that's really sort of exciting too. And I'm meeting a lot of new people in a lot of these areas that I never met before, and and it's it's been great from that standpoint too. You've been in Fox, You've seen so a company that's always been innovative and at the forefront, but it's very birth as a network was disruptive. What do you and you've been there for so long, what keeps you engaged in

the business. The idea that I have to say, it's it's been incredible to work at a place where the fear is never to fail. The fear is to not think of new stuff. I don't think I can put it anymore simple than that, because that that it has been true since the day I drove on the Fox lot, And there was always that idea that don't ever worry about your crazy idea is not working, you know, worry about not having crazy ideas, you know, um, and that keeping things the same we're never was never going to

be good enough. And that was every boss I have worked for in that company. That comes from the head down, yeah, question, and that that was and that was real, and that was you could you could feel it, you know, and I was there, you know early, you know, the Fox

wasn't even seven nights yet as as a network. But I remember sort of things like, you know, which I have nothing to do with, um, things like you know, moving you know, Simpson's next to Cosby, Yeah, you know, and then obviously the NFL and station acquisitions and all the other gigantic things that the company did. But you you know, there was always a sense of something cool was right around the corner, you know. And I think it's still true now, I really do, I really do so,

no question. No. Now it's a sunny front row seat because we're back in Los Angeles, so it's uh, it's it's terrific. Thank you, Frank Well, thank you for braving the East again. And it's difficult, yes, but thank you for having me very much. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in next week for another edition of Strictly Business.