'Unscripted' Book Authors Offer Lessons on Redstone Succession Drama

In I'm happy to have the book's Pulitzer winning authors with me today, Jim Stewart and Rachel Abrams. I'll be back with them in just a moment. I'm back with Jim Stewart, author of quite a few books that have penetrated the corridors of power from politics to big business, and Rachel Abrams, who was part of the team of investigative journalists who dug into the Harvey Weinstein scandal for The New York Times, where both she and Jim work

full disclosure. Rachel used to work with me here at Variety, but as she knows, that doesn't mean I will take it easy on her one bit. Welcome guys, Thank you so much. Andy, Yeah, thanks and h thanks for having us so unscripted tells the story of both Sumner Redstone, the founding father of the Viacom Empire, and Leslie Moonvez,

who had an extraordinary run at CBS. Both men, however, ended their otherwise illustrious careers in pretty messy fashion, as you document so well here and Jim, I wanted to start with you. You know, there's been a lot of inks billed on both of these gentlemen. What were you looking for that wasn't already out there? What made you

think there was more story to tell? Well? I had done a lot of reporting, as had Rachel about what was going on in the scene yes board at the time of moon vezus Oustair and I knew even though we had done some reporting in this one the New York Times, there were still a lot of unanswered questions. So I was I really wanted to get to the

bottom of that. I think we were both kind of thinking of it initially as the whole meat too movement collides with, you know, the boardroom culture in corporate America as we saw it as CB a guest. Then, as we worked on the story and we gained more access. First of all, we got incredible access to documents that

weren't disclosed in the book from the boardroom. But we also started getting more and more information from the staff, the nurses inside the Sumner Redstone mansion that also had not been reported, and we realized at some point the story was bigger than that. Wasn't just a corporate boardroom meets me too. It was also a family drama that

was very, very significant. And we had Sherry Redstone, the daughter, the much underappreciated, to put it mildly, daughter of Sumner Redstone, the rust into a world not of her choosing uh in an attempt to gain control of the companies and the family legacy. So that became the much bigger story. That kind of is a corporate story, is a me too story, but it's much bigger than that. Ultimately, I

think it's a family drama. So, Rachel, could you explain from me, in light of all this documentation and other disclosures that came out and you're reporting, is there any one thing that people are going to be surprised by that they didn't know from earlier reporting new new light that this book sheds. Well, I can tell you the one thing I was not surprised by, really shocked by, was the sort of the level of alleged elder abuse that Sumner Redstone suffered towards the end of his life.

And the reason why I say it was shocked by this but not surprised, is that, you know, we for somebody like him, with all of his money and all of his resources, you would think that, you know, he would be somewhat insulated from people who were trying to take advantage of him. But the fact that you know, he these two women, men Will Hurtser and Sydney Holland, were able to to insinuate themselves into his life and to his mansion, into his finances and nearly gained control.

It just goes to show you that, I mean, frankly, you know, if it could happen to sun To Redstone, why couldn't it happen to to somebody in your family? And one could argue that his wealth made him a target of people who were trying to get gain an upper hand or get rich or whatever, but you know, just frankly, just the level to which people were able to succeed and siphon away millions of dollars from him. Um.

I found that really really sort of amazing. And when you say millions of dollars, I think the one thing that's stuck from stuck with me from this book was one hundred and fifty million dollars between Hurtzer and Holland I didn't realize it was. I was just absolutely flabbergasted

by that. And I think to your point, in a way, the story of Redstone reminded me of celebrities like Michael Jackson or Whitney Houston, where the wealth that you would think would be the installation actually becomes a prison of sorts. And it just got me thinking, is there going to be a legal legacy from what has transpired here, Jim, in terms of like preventing this kind of activity from happening to moguls or whoever could be taken advantage of like this. Well, I think you see in the story.

I wish I could say, yes that there would be a lot of cogress on this, but not really. The you know, the the Los Angeles Protective Service here, which

supposedly investigative this did a laughably incomplete job. They never even interviewed the staff members who filed the compliance about the elder abews there were lawsuits that might have yielded some significant rulings had they gone to completion, but for reasons that are clear than the story, both sides wanted to settle this so that never jually went to trial.

And I'm sorry to say, probably some of you going to read this and look at you know, what happened to the companions of Sumners, you know, Sydney and manuelas Rachel mentioned, and say, look, it paid off for them. They, by the way, a hundred fifty million, which I agree is shocking. That's kind of the bottom line. It was at least a hundred fifty million. I think there were many more millions on top of that, not to mention

the shocking fact they nearly got control. I mean, at one point I said, can you imagine Sun Valley with Sydney Holland and MANUELA Hurts are parading around there. They came very close to that. I don't think people realize, um, how how much that, how close that came to happening. And Jim, You've pierced many a vail of secrecy over the course of your reporting career, and so I'm curious how this one measured up. To say a Disney Wars another book of yours. I mean, we're people willing to

talk about this stuff. Yes, I think you know, we detailed many sources, uh, and there there was an extraordinary ray of people who ultimately did talk to us in various ways, some completely for attribution, some willing to fact check and but not wanting specific things attributed. And we

go into that in the source. But you know, we got so much information that people really had no choice but to talk so and I have to say it's unprecedented and is now a very long career of mine, partly because Rachel, you know, developed a relationship with a confidential source who provided a call it a treasure trove is an understatement. I mean, it was a luminous amount of confidential, detailed information that able enabled us to really be a fly on the wall in it seems that

I've never had that kind of immediate access. And plus we got all these texts and emails and you can kind of be there in real time as you see the struggles going on within the company with you know, moon Vest trying to decide whether to sue the red Stone family was something that nobody has ever understood why he did it? I think you will now, Um, as well as boardroom minutes, letters, UM, an incredible rad text and emails and which are you know, made it rich

load of material from which to weave this tale. Yeah, I'd say the texts were particularly juicy, particularly shocking, and gave you an insight that is it's it really went to the absolute center of what was going on here. UM, Rachel, I want to talk a bit also about Leslie Moonvez, who you know, looms pretty large in the in the second half of this book. UM, did you come away from your reporting with a different impression of the man

than what you set out to? What? What did you learn along the way that might have changed what you thought about someone who had a pretty incredible career. You know, one thing I was really kind of surprised to learn was how indecisive he had been about you know, this nuclear option to file lawsuit against the you know, the Redstone controlling company National Amusements. You know, the text as you can see in the text messages and the communications

that he's having with other board members, etcetera. He I would have thought that somebody that had risen to the upper echelons of the media world would be somebody who made decisions stuck with them, you know, showed no signs of vulnerability or waffling or anything like that. But as you'll read in the book, Um, that was not the case here, and that was not the case to sort

of an extraordinary degree. I mean, just seeing the cajoling that's going on behind the scenes as he's trying to figure out whether to wage war against the Red Stones. That is not the kind of decisiveness I would have perhaps expected with somebody of his stature. And I will say that after reading this, I think any any mogul who reads this will probably never text again because it will come back to haunt you. This book will show

you that much. And Rachel, you've done extensive reporting on the me too saga, and now that we're years away from the from the fall all of Leslie moon Vez, I'm also curious to get your sense of how the me too movement has played out. Has there been lasting cultural change in this business as a result of the kind of reporting you've done. Well, I think it's too early to talk about what the lasting changes are going

to be. I think, not to sound overly cynical, but companies have become very good at damage control and saying all the right things in the wake of a scandal. But it takes a lot to change a culture, especially a culture where the culture has been ingrained from you know, the top for years. And one thing that I think is really interesting that you know, it's we're too It's still too early to tell, but I do wonder if we're going to see any of these guys come back, right, Like,

Hollywood especially loves a redemption story. And you know, some of these guys, are they going to live in exile long enough for for people to think, well, you know, if I offer them a movie deal or an executive job like I you know, I don't think anyone's gonna cancel me. And and I sort of wonder, you know, are any of these guys going to be coming back?

I mean, it's only been what five years or so less than five years, sorry, six years ish since Harvey Weinstein broke So I do wonder, you know, if, if, if we're going to see any comebacks, um, and I think that'll be really telling in terms of figuring out what's changed, what hasn't you know, Andy, I M I wish I could say that there's been a huge change there.

There's no doubt there has been changed, For example, against shocking things, the idea that less Moon bez as he himself disclosed, and we reveal there was a there was a woman on the CBS payroll who was in the pool of people sitting outside his office. Part of his job was to administer oral sex to him whenever he wanted. I would like to think that that almost unbelievable thing is not happening anymore. On the other hand, I was also very strong, as was Rachel. And how fearful people

still are about coming forward. I mean, we have women in the in the book who had not previously spoken to the press, who I don't think people were aware of, had undergone some of these things, and me too has not changed much. There's still afraid of their careers. There's still afraid that they'll be black ball there's still afraid that that Hollywood in particular and entertainment is a very male dominated um industry in which their careers would be ruined.

And really, there were people we talked to who would not agree. They ultimately they said, no, we're not going to put our neck on the lawn for this so

that is still a serious problem in my view. Well, so to that point, I mean, this was something that woul occurred to me as I read the book as well, which was how many other women either didn't want to speak or how many other women you may not even have known of that were implicated in this And obviously you can't disclose who, what went and why, but give a sense of the scale here, In other words, was there even was there you know, many many more women

who wouldn't speak, or many many more women that you heard things about but couldn't confirm. I just perhaps this is even more the scale here is even greater than you guys have reported. I mean, Andy, you know this also being a journalist, Like whenever you report something, the question is always, well, this is what I know? What

don't I know? And you know, I don't really want to speculate about the universe of how, you know, how big big, how many women might be out there, because you know, I don't want to cast dispersions with information I haven't confirmed myself, but but I will say that, like I have talked to people who are related to this story who say there is no upside for me talking to you and I just want to emphasize what Jim said, which is that, you know, frankly, as a

woman covering some of this stuff the last few years, one of the I would argue kind of sexist criticisms for women coming forward in these stories is well, they just want attention, you know, the floodgates of open. People just want attention. And I can tell you that like more often than not, when I talk to somebody, they see no upside moon best CBS or regardless. There's the response I get is there is no upside for me talking to you. What do I get out of this?

My career will be ruined, my children will find out, you know, why would I want this out there? And so I think if anybody thinks that that people are everyone is eager and embraces calls from me or Jim with open arms, I mean, that is really a misconception. Ye Andy, I'd also like to add an important theme in this book that hadn't been explored much is the intersection of sexual abuse, sexual harassment, and money. Um, there

are there are many examples here of women. Yes, they did undergo pretty horrific behavior on the part of men, but they also got a lot of money. I mean, Sydney Manuela may have walked away with a hundred fifty million plus, but there are many many other women that we ran into in this story who left with many millions of dollars in their bank account with you know, with CBS and Viacom shares that just mysteriously showed up

in their brokerage accounts. And you know, frankly, a lot of those people they didn't want to talk to us, They didn't want to do anything would put those millions of dollars at risk, like somebody may be sailing them or something. So I think that combination, when you're when you're dealing with very wealthy and powerful people with money to spread around, you're you're e veneering a new area

of sexual harassment interviews in my view. But what do you guys as reporters do when you have to encounter people like this who have no incentive? What are the reporting, for lack of a better term, tricks of the trade to coax these people to speak to you. I mean, it just sounds very difficult. I think it really depends on what the person's motivations are for picking up the

phone and talking to you. Is somebody talking to you because they don't want this whatever happened to them to happen to other people, in which case you can say, look, you know, I getting your story out there might be able to I mean Megan Megan too, who is one of the reporters on the Weinstein story, UM, has this great line where she talks about saying to women, I can't change what happened to you, but maybe I can prevent it from happening to other people. And I have

to confess I've stolen that on more than one occasion. UM. And And but some people also, you know, I feel that that that nobody has ever been held accountable to what happened to them. And you have to just reassure folks that, like, we work at the New York Times and we handle all kinds of sensitive information every day, and we know how to keep keep keep people confidential.

And you have to just reassure folks that, like you can take action with the information that they give you to maybe you know, shed a light on something, UM and keep them safe. You know, I think it's it all comes down to how would you feel if a stranger called you out of the blue and asked you about really sensitive info that you just going to want to know that that they know how to treat you and treat you with respect and and keep and and

hold your confidence. So there's no one one size fits all, um, But I guess those are a couple of things that I like to keep in mind. I think it was a big advantage there were two of us and um, and you know, Rachel was able to relate, I think, and you know, bond with a lot of these people

in a way that I probably couldn't do. And then there were some some examples where maybe it was good that I was not, you know, immurse so much in the me too reporting because we did sort of Rachel did a lot of the women who experienced sexual viies and I did some myself, and she was right. You never knew what approach it was. But I have to admire the people have spoke because in no case did it really bring them any immediate advantage to be able to tell the stories. Yeah, I think one of the

great things about this book. I mean, this process was so interesting and Jim and I, you know, really I had obviously the subject matter was dark at times, but also some of it was quite lighthearted, and Jim and I, you know, really enjoyed this process in working together, and we really played to our strengths. You know, Jim is obviously a very U steven business reporter, and there are people that are going to answer his phone call that

might be more reticent to call me back. And there are people that I might be able to relate to as a thirty five year old woman that would be better for me to call. And it's not like I haven't done corporate investigations, It's not like Jim hasn't spoken to women who have made sexual assault allegations. But you know, this book being the collision, as Jim said, of Me Too and corporate governance, the two of us really were able to cover a lot of ground and we really

embraced that. We'll be back in just a moment with more with Rachel Abrams and Jim Stewart, and we are back with the authors of the new book Unscripted, the Battle for a Media Empire and the red Stone Family legg See, Rachel, I want to go back to something you had said earlier that reminded me of I was reading the epilogue just last night, and I think I howled out loud at the part where you guys reported that peers of Leslie Moonvez wondered whether he would return

to the industry at some point. I can understand why his friends might think that. Do you really think that something like that as possible? As I think you suggested earlier in this conversation. I just really feel as though, again Hollywood loves a redemption story, and Leslie Moonvez has

helped many people in their careers. Are a lot of people, as Jim said, that feel very grateful to him, And I would have to imagine that there is a world where the combination of time, distance, gratitude, perhaps people feeling like they owe him something like all of those things, I could imagine a world in which they all combine were so somebody's willing to give him another shot, And um,

you know, I don't. I don't know if it's likely or not, but I you know, he's done a lot of favors for a lot of people, He's made a lot of careers, and you know, scandals fade with time, So there's a world in which it could be possible. I suppose. I mean, he's already set up an LLC for his media ventures. Um, I believe in West Hollywood, right, So, but has this company actually done anything? Do we do we know anything about his mindset these days? Is he

angling for a comeback or maybe he's just done. He's been keeping a low profile. But you know, I just I just think I would be wary of saying never, you know, never say never. And and you know, I think it's fairness to to Moonvez. He's not a Harvey Weinstein. Um. He was immensely well locked, he was very popular, He helped many people in their careers. He was an extremely

successful chief executive re civs over all those years. And I've talked to friends of mine in the business in Hollywood have said, you know, look, I don't really know what happened there, but you know I don't want to run a foul of him or across him. I bear him nothing good will. Plus you said that staunch support of his very popular wife, Julie Chance. So I would never count him out. And by the way, he's never in charge of the crown, He's never ensued civilly. Most

of these incidents happened too long ago. The statute of limitations is run. Um, So you know, I would never count him out. I'm wondering whether we should be counting out Philippe Domant, who of course was red Stones right hand man. And Karen, tell me if I'm getting this wrong, comes off as much of grifter in this book as Sydney Holland or Manuela Herzer. I mean, do we have

we heard a peep from him since he exited stage left? Well, he shows up at some charity balls in Palm Beach with his wife, But no, I don't think he shows any interest in the business. I honestly I don't know. However, how interested he ever really was um in the movie business or entertainment per say, he was a corporate lawyer. He became very close to Sumner. He was known as his surrogate son, which he encouraged. And again you see in the book there's some testimony from him. He knew

what was going on. He knew about all these women, he knew the millions of dollars that were being paid out to him. He was a trustee of the Redstone Trust. And you know, didn't he ever say anything about this? Did he ever evenything to stop it? No? Um, He's walked out of there with you know, many many millions

of dollars. Um you know, and I'm sure that you know he's from his point of view, this all worked out very well, and he presided over a period for a company that used to have i'd say probably the most valuable brands and media that by the time he left, the likes of MTV, Comedy Central or were diminished to the point where we may never see them recover. And something that certainly comes across in the book as well. UM,

simple question here, is this story really over? I mean, I still feel like we're seeing headlines and we saw recently the New York Attorney's Office, uh, disclosing about additional payments Moonvez agreed to make with regard to a cover up at the l a p D. Moonves being tipped off by the l a p D with regard to

something in that case. Uh. Is this even over? It certainly seems like there are still reverberations from this, and we know that they're the you know, there's the the l A p D angle, But also what is the fate of these two companies? Um? And and was Sherry ultimately right with her plans for a merger? I mean, I think there are still a lot of open questions about, um,

what the effects of this are going to be. Yeah, I've learned over the years any you can't write a book, or even really a long story if you wait until

every single aspect of it laid out. There's a lot happening, but it is over in the sense that the arc of the story is shared, residunding, drawn back into the family business and the family drama, and having to confront one incredible obstacle to another, starting with the women in the mansion, continuing with Phillip Doma, then having to deal with Lessman invest suing her, and ultimately she emerges in charge.

And so in that sense, you've got a woman protagonist first I've ever had one of my books confronting all these obstacles, and she does emerge on top and the end, And in that sense, I think it's a very satisfying narrative. Although and I would say Sherry probably emerges is the most fascinating, multifaceted character in the book. The thing that struck me was how she was repeatedly being undermined over and over by people that were on the board leaders

of the respective companies that she controlled. It begs the question where things stand today with her and the combined Paramount Global company um Rachel, how do you see this company faring in this world we're in now, where the streaming wars are at full roar, much bigger companies battling to the death, consolidation, UH, anticipation always around the corner. How do you see Sharry faring in all this? Well? Jim can Jim. Jim can probably answer some of the

corporate questions. But the one thing I would love to just talk about is the sexism that Sherry faced, because you know, one, this stuff doesn't just change overnight. You know, as detailed in her books, some of the things that she had to put up with. I mean, my jaw hit the floor. I could not believe that that that adults, experienced, adult executives would treat her and say things to her. Uh, that anybody with two brain cells to rub against each

other would know better. I mean, it just and it makes me think, like, you know, it's not like it's not like, oh, the Me Too movement happened, and none of those people work in media anymore, and nobody's sexist anymore, and everybody's you know, everything's happily ever after. It's not like the entire companies got rid of everybody that ever

worked there and replaced them. So um, I can't. Even though she she she has gained control of her family empire, I still wonder frankly about what kind of indignity she faces and the level of respect that she gets on a daily basis um and as the future of the company, as you mentioned, consolidation is obviously really important. Jim can

probably Jim, why don't you answer that? Well? I can certainly say that from a wall seat perspective, even the merged companies which probably should emerge, you know, long before if Sherry had her way, they would have, but they're not big enough. They don't have the scale to compete compete with the big streaming companies in this radically changed media landscape. So there's much speculation that the company will be sold. Sharry herself has said that under the right circumstances,

she would not oppose that. I don't believe the next generation in the Redstone family is eager really to take over in it and run the company. So the stock has run up lately after thinking to you know, pretty shockingly low level and I think large that's largely on speculation that some kind of deal will be in the future. Well, correct me if I'm wrong. Sherry is also still facing shareholder lawsuits over this merger. Is that something that you think will play a part in its future. I think

those will ultimately be resolved. I you know, I strongly suspect that they'll They usually do settle. I mean, I think the respected boards have been very resistant to any kind of settlement, seeing this as kind of a shakedown by the planetts Um. Honestly, I think in the long term this may yield some very interesting information, but I don't think it's going to affect the long term trajectory

of the companies. I also wonder whether we may even be underestimating Sherry and Paramount Global, and we should, of course note their CEO, Bob backish Um. Is it possible that they could emerge as an acquirer instead of being the one acquired or is it just more likely maybe they spin off CBS. Uh. Can I get a prediction out of you, Jim, I'd be very surprised if they are going to be a buyer. Um. It would be very unusual, being the companies that are the most obvious

matches for them are all much larger. It would be very highly unusual for a relatively small market capitalization like Paramount Global to be the one eating up somebody really big. Hmm. Yeah, I would not be surprised if by this time next year we were in a very different situation with this company. Um. I mean, you want to see an interesting merger, you know, you know the Discovery Warner Brothers is very interesting UM precedent, although I think that one is fairly unusual where the

Discovery managers ended up running a much bigger operation. But that I think that's the exception rather than the Ruble you know. I wondered what Rupert Murdoch would think after reading this book. What what lessons do you think he could take away as he sort of navigates his own complexities of succession and a family empire. What should he take away from your book? I think that he is probably very pleased at the idea that people think succession is not based on him. Yeah, I would second that.

And speaking of succession, and my last question, color me crazy, but do you guys have a movie on your hands with this book? Is this something you've got agents out there pitching because I'm not joking. I could so see it. Well, I think we can't say too much about that at this point, Um, but it occurred to us maybe we didn't.

We didn't call them chapters. We called him episodes and and really we were just kind of having fun with We named it unscripted because it seemed like a you could never make it up and be it's beyond any reality TV I've seen. Uh, but you know, I've never written a book expecting it to turn into movie. By

the way, none of my books have turned into movies. Um, and I think Rache and I both agreed, let's can we just write a really really good saga, a good story, and be unsparing with it, and and then let the chips hold they will something happens great. Well, I'm gonna end with the prediction saying Succession has primed the market for this kind of story. I'm looking forward to the Netflix limited series coming soon. Jim Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time out. Good luck with the book.

It was a great read. Thank you so much. And this has been another episode of Strictly Business. Tune in next week for another helping of scintillating conversation with media movers and shakers, and please make sure you subscribe to the podcast to hear future episodes. Also leave a review in Apple Podcasts and let us know how we're doing. H